Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 29th Jun 2012 22:55 UTC
OSNews, Generic OSes "Whenever there is a conversation about the future of computing, is discussion inevitably turns to the notion of a 'File'. After all, most tablets and phones don't show the user anything that resembles a file, only Apps that contain their own content, tucked away inside their own opaque storage structure. This is wrong. Files are abstraction layers around content that are necessary for interoperability. Without the notion of a File or other similar shared content abstraction, the ability to use different applications with the same information grinds to a halt, which hampers innovation and user experience." Aside from the fact that a file manager for Android is just a click away, and aside from the fact that Android's share menu addresses many of these concerns, his point still stands: files are not an outdated, archaic concept. One of my biggest gripes with iOS is just how user-hostile the operating system it when it comes to getting stuff - whatever stuff - to and from the device.
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RE[2]: Ted Nelson on files
by henderson101 on Sat 30th Jun 2012 10:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Ted Nelson on files"
henderson101
Member since:
2006-05-30

It certainly would be interesting to hear how exactly he would propose accomplish a complex task, such as shooting and editing a feature film, without the use of camera files and without a non-linear video editor application.


If we go back to the iOS, you know, your original complaint target: things that make sense as being files are still files. What no one has is a hierarchical file system. You know what? I've edited 10 or more videos that use iMovie, Avid or Reeldirector on my iPhone and iPad. Never needed a file viewer past the camera integration and music library integration. The files all just appear in the right place. Learning curve is zero. This is what consumers really want, not complexity.

Equally, my mail, calendar and notes all appear in apps. There are no files. Why does there need to be?

This is the issue with the argument. Tech people assume that a file system is the best and only way to present logical blocks of data. It's not.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Ted Nelson on files
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 30th Jun 2012 10:27 in reply to "RE[2]: Ted Nelson on files"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

This is the issue with the argument. Tech people assume that a file system is the best and only way to present logical blocks of data. It's not.


Try getting some photos off or on your iPad. Look at regular folk trying to figure out the god-awful mess that is iTunes. Most iOS users I know - scratch that, ALL iOs users I know just email stuff to and from the device. Is that progress?

You know how it works on Android?

1. Plug device in.
2. Drag shit onto it.
3. The end.

This is not complicated, and it's an operation EVERYBODY knows how to do because it's exactly the same as USB sticks, which EVERYBODY understands. On iOS, getting files to and from the device is a nightmare, and there's no indication Apple is doing anything at all to make this easier.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[4]: Ted Nelson on files
by MOS6510 on Sat 30th Jun 2012 10:45 in reply to "RE[3]: Ted Nelson on files"
MOS6510 Member since:
2011-05-12

What a strange bunch. Everything I need on my iOS devices automagicaly appears there.

There are educational videos on the Apple website on how to use iOS devices.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Ted Nelson on files
by tupp on Sat 30th Jun 2012 11:32 in reply to "RE[2]: Ted Nelson on files"
tupp Member since:
2006-11-12

If we go back to the iOS, you know, your original complaint target

Huh? I don't recall ever targeting IOS -- perhaps Apple and its deluded followers, but not specifically IOS.

By the way, I was responding to the linked video of Ted Nelson's comments on files, in which he calls them "lumps."


things that make sense as being files are still files. What no one has is a hierarchical file system.

I guess that I can live with the news that IOS actually uses files. However, I am glad to know there most certainly (without a doubt) are none of those horrible folders and subfolders to be found in precious IOS!


You know what? I've edited 10 or more videos that use iMovie, Avid or Reeldirector on my iPhone and iPad. Never needed a file viewer past the camera integration and music library integration. The files all just appear in the right place. Learning curve is zero. This is what consumers really want, not complexity.

Wow. Dr.Mabuse was right about the standard Apple fanboy response being "Oh but the user doesn't care about that."

Also, I just have to ask: What learning curve? Are we talking about all the studying it takes to merely grasp the notion that files are just documents and apps, and that they can be organized in directories and sub-directories? My! That would be too much effort for an IOS user!

Incidentally, I can see a few problems with this IOS blissful ignorance scenario. First of all, sh*t happens. For instance, what will the clueless IOS user do when a file gets borked in the middle of a transfer? She'll be S.O.L.

Furthermore, let's say you edited a pilot for a TV show with all of the project files and footage thrown into the root directory with all of the other system files, mp3s, Word files and apps -- in one big mess.

Your client says, "That's a great cut for the show! Before I leave in a few minutes, I need the file of the show plus all the of the close-up and medium shots of the two leads in scenes 3,4,7, 12,and 34, because the trailer editing department needs to this footage for a promo that runs this afternoon. Oh, and by the way, please make sure that it is organized with appropriate file names, in folders named by scene and shot type."

How are you going deliver those files to your client in 5 minutes, with all of that mess?


This is the issue with the argument. Tech people assume that a file system is the best and only way to present logical blocks of data. It's not.

No. Not tech people, but anyone who wants to get a job done efficiently. A pro video editor in the above scenario would be a "creative" type. However, he better be organized and have his sh*t together, otherwise, he won't get hired again.

Edited 2012-06-30 11:35 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[4]: Ted Nelson on files
by ricegf on Sun 1st Jul 2012 12:02 in reply to "RE[3]: Ted Nelson on files"
ricegf Member since:
2007-04-25

Actually, I'm typing this on an iPad on which I've organized my apps into... Folders. I think Steve Jobs invented folders in iOS 4 as a way for iPad users to... Organize page after page of apps, which were too hard to find without a folder... Hierarchy.

Except that he was careful to keep the hierarchy to two levels, so that my Media folder can't contain a Photos folder. So I named that Media - Photos.

Because users don't care about organizing their files and apps in folders.

/sarcasm

Reply Parent Score: 3