Linked by R_T_F_M on Thu 13th Sep 2012 21:19 UTC
FreeBSD "For the past several years we've been working towards migrating from GCC to Clang/LLVM as our default compiler. We intend to ship FreeBSD 10.0 with Clang as the default compiler on i386 and amd64 platforms. To this end, we will make WITH_CLANG_IS_CC the default on i386 and amd64 platforms on November 4th."
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RE[6]: C++
by kwan_e on Sat 15th Sep 2012 13:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: C++"
Member since:

If I may remind you, I plainly stated that there is no risk of buffer overflows if you follow correct practices.

You keep forgetting we live in the real world where even the best programmers make mistakes. Do you know what a mistake is? People don't have to intentionally diverge from correct practices to make a security error.

At no point in time did I encourage unsafe practices. I spelled out for you exactly what must be done.

You encourage it by enabling the mindset that people should make security a matter of ego and pride at being able to claim mastery over manual buffer management. Encouraging manual buffer management (because of your dislike of C++) is reckless.

From the point of everyone who is not a developer: they don't care. What they see is a security flaw and their wasted money.

And even with that in mind, it is not only simpler to do it my way but it also produces easier to read and understand code.

Since when has manual anything been simpler and easier?

You've obviously found poor references for irony. There's simply no expectation that a C project would not be compiled with a compiler written in C++. Thus there cannot be any irony when it happens (and it happens all the time, further removing it from the realm of irony.)

Similarly, my participation is not ironic because there's no basis to expect that I wouldn't participate in correcting a misuse of an overly misused word.

What makes it ironic is that Linus Torvalds and people like you have said that C++ is a bad language and that C is preferable to C++. I'm pretty sure the BSD people hold similar views. Then you get compilers written in a language you despise compiling your programs written in a language you prefer over the compiler's implementation language.

Your preferred language has basically become possible only because of a language you hate, and it's happened to the biggest projects with the greatest haters. Irony.

And the "expectation" criteria of irony is not an empirical one but a vaguely narrative one. For example, say we're both watching a movie. Something happens which you don't expect to follow from what has happened, while I fully expected it to because I understand the narrative structure. Does that make not ironic simply because I expected it, even though you didn't expect it and it was certainly the writer's intention of it being ironic?

Of course not. Irony is a literary or narrative property that applies whether or not an actual person actually expects it or not.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: C++
by satsujinka on Sat 15th Sep 2012 23:13 in reply to "RE[6]: C++"
satsujinka Member since:

Oh hey, the security circus is back in town. I've already dealt with the issues you bring up, but here we go again.

Mistakes get checked by others. Don't release software before hand.

Using arrays is not a matter of pride, but one of humility. Other people have to read the code. Use something easy to read.

Manual can be easier if it makes things easier to understand. In this case, arrays have special syntax that makes them easier to understand than vectors. Thus even though it's manual, it's still easier.

The language of the compiler is irrelevant. Most projects just use the most popular compiler. It simply makes rational sense to do so, as popular compilers have more extensions, optimizations, and (hopefully) less bugs (or they'll be fixed sooner.)
It is entirely possible to compile linux or freeBSD with tcc or pcc. Both of which are written in C. Therefore, it is not true that C requires C++.
It is also important to point out, that using a program is in no way, shape, or form a validation of the language used to write it.

In order to hate, one must have passion. I certainly don't. I don't go around trying to stop people from using C++, it's their choice they can use what they like.
Personally, I find C++ to be an ugly language. It tries to do too many things at once and ends up being overly verbose in everything it does. This makes it harder to read. Which makes it harder to understand.
I much prefer using smaller, more concise languages. Yes, that's languages plural.

Lastly, irony. Irony is all about expectation. If you don't understand this then, please, stop using the word. Specifically, Irony is about averaged expectation, also known as common sense. Something can be ironic only if the average person wouldn't have expected that outcome.
Also, expectation is empirical. You can go out and ask people what they expect.

Reply Parent Score: 2