Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 22nd Mar 2013 16:31 UTC
Windows Paul Thurrot: "Tipped off by a reader, I checked my System log in Event Viewer today and what did I find but a stack of pending updates for all of the core apps in Windows 8. I'm not 100 percent sure this is what I think it is. But if we're right, it looks like 18 of the core apps in Windows 8 are about to get updated. Or, almost all of them." Foley confirms it. By far Windows 8's weakest link, so I'm hoping this is true. Especially the Mail application is dreadful.
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RE[2]: Comment
by Nelson on Sat 23rd Mar 2013 15:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment"
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

Microsoft on the other hand, even with all evidence regarding 'gorilla arm' and the lack of scalability in Metro to scale up to complex applications we still have them holding onto a false set of ideas.


Do you have any specific examples of where WinRT can't scale up to complex application? There's not really much in the way of developers who want to write feature rich applications.

Sure, some things are limited, but not all things. There is also a distinction to be made between something being completely missing from WinRT, and something being done a different way with WinRT.

What makes the issue even more funny is WinRT API was billed as a 'new API' when Arstechnica divided deeper to expose that it is merely a wrapper around win32 and nothing has actually changed - we're not really seeing any movement forward but a re-arranging of rotten deck chairs then being labelled as 'brand new'.


This isn't completely true. The Windows Runtime is two things:

1. The ABI and language projections which allow cross language communication.

2. The implementation of various projected interfaces.

The first is handled by a souped up version of COM, and the second varies.

Some WinRT APIs are completely new implementations of functionality (Sensors, the entire XAML stack, every aspect of the new Application Model for example) and some are even allowed to be called from Desktop applications, and other APIs are wrappers around existing Win32 APIs like StreamSockets wrapping WinSock.

It doesn't really matter though because its an implementation detail that's completely transparent to the developer. Whereas with Windows 7 you directly coded against Win32, with the Windows Runtime you are an additional step removed from Win32, which makes it easy to replace it from under developers noses in the future.

The Windows Runtime could just as easily do the things that Win32 does itself, but it'd be a massive duplication of effort, given that Win32 itself still ships with Windows.

So I'm not entirely sure what you find so funny.

Edited 2013-03-23 15:43 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Comment
by moondevil on Sun 24th Mar 2013 06:30 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment"
moondevil Member since:
2005-07-08

Currently I have no reason to upgrade, but I am hoping that by Windows 9, or whatever it will be called, we could get a WinRT with broader support for desktop applications.

Win32 is huge, as it covers all operating system layers, so I do understand that Microsoft takes time to provide a WinRT that provides comparable set of APIs.

They had to focus on the ones required for mobile development, because that is where they are being hit right now.

Anyway with Cocoa, Android and WinRT we have an ongoing transition where the userland is becoming OO based.

Just the usual suspects will be stuck in C land in the future, maybe.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment
by Nelson on Sun 24th Mar 2013 18:07 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Currently I have no reason to upgrade, but I am hoping that by Windows 9, or whatever it will be called, we could get a WinRT with broader support for desktop applications.

Win32 is huge, as it covers all operating system layers, so I do understand that Microsoft takes time to provide a WinRT that provides comparable set of APIs.


You know what, I used to be against this, but I've since come around to accept that this is a reasonable position.

Windows 8 is positioned as a transitional release, and as such, the Windows Runtime should be extended to Desktop apps to aid in this transition.

Win32 is going away for a few client releases of Windows anyway, so there's no use in making people suffer as if it were.


They had to focus on the ones required for mobile development, because that is where they are being hit right now.

Anyway with Cocoa, Android and WinRT we have an ongoing transition where the userland is becoming OO based.

Just the usual suspects will be stuck in C land in the future, maybe.


Yes, even more exciting is that WinRT (read: COM) now supports aggregate based class inheritance which makes things a lot more useful.

That, plus the trend towards asynchronous continuation based APIs in WinRT.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment
by ze_jerkface on Sun 24th Mar 2013 22:48 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment"
ze_jerkface Member since:
2012-06-22

Whereas with Windows 7 you directly coded against Win32, with the Windows Runtime you are an additional step removed from Win32, which makes it easy to replace it from under developers noses in the future.


Hmmmmm building a cleaner API on Win32 sounds like a good idea. They should design this new layer to support multiple languages and platforms, even a mobile subset. They could call it .NET.

The Windows Runtime could just as easily do the things that Win32 does itself, but it'd be a massive duplication of effort, given that Win32 itself still ships with Windows.


Microsoft's API history could be summed as as massive duplication of effort.

So I'm not entirely sure what you find so funny.


What I find funny is that both you and Microsoft execs don't seem to know much about developing software for Microsoft platforms. I develop Windows software for a living so you might want to consult me before providing shoddy defenses.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment
by Nelson on Mon 25th Mar 2013 06:32 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Hmmmmm building a cleaner API on Win32 sounds like a good idea. They should design this new layer to support multiple languages and platforms, even a mobile subset. They could call it .NET.


And WinRT borrows a lot from .NET, including its metadata language and a lot of the design from the BCL.

If it wasn't for .NET, WinRT wouldn't exist. Furthermore, you bringing up .NET actually proves a great point.

.NET abstracted things like I/O away from Win32. When WinRT implemented those same APIs in native code instead of managed, .NET developers didn't even notice.

The APIs are the same, the concrete implementations differ. This is why its irrelevant what underpins *some* APIs that the Windows Runtime provides. Other APIs as I've said before are completely new to Windows.

I know oversimplifications are your thing, but to this extent, its misleading.


Microsoft's API history could be summed as as massive duplication of effort.


I agree, which is why its nice that the Windows Runtime reduces it by blurring the lines between native and managed code.

All APIs in Windows are not first party to .NET and even HTML5 apps on the platform. If that doesn't make you happy, then your criticism was in bad faith in the first place.


What I find funny is that both you and Microsoft execs don't seem to know much about developing software for Microsoft platforms. I develop Windows software for a living so you might want to consult me before providing shoddy defenses.


Look, it's great that you spend your day playing with DataGrids and WinForms, and its amusing that you're stuck in 2005, but overall, I don't really care and its not really relevant.

This is like the third or fourth time I've had to beat back your misinformation and frankly, extraordinary ignorance about .NET and Windows Development in general. How you keep your job with such a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is you do is beyond me.

This myopic obsession you have with legacy Windows is almost clinical, you need help.

Reply Parent Score: 3