Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 25th Mar 2013 21:09 UTC
Legal Late last week, Nokia dropped what many consider to be a bomb on the WebM project: a list of patents that VP8 supposedly infringes in the form of an IETF IPR declaration. The list has made the rounds around the web, often reported as proof that VP8 infringes upon Nokia's patents. All this stuff rang a bell. Haven't we been here before? Yup, we have, with another open source codec called Opus. Qualcomm and Huawei made the same claims as Nokia did, but they turned out to be complete bogus. As it turns out, this is standard practice in the dirty business of the patent licensing industry.
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RE[5]: Big picture...
by saynte on Wed 27th Mar 2013 06:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Big picture..."
saynte
Member since:
2007-12-10


Your recollection is utterly inaccurate. The conclusion was that, for video on the web resolution and bitrates, if you are prepared to put up with a slower encoding speed, then for a given number of bits you absolutely can make at least as good if not better encoded video with webm as you can with h.264.

You have to go to extreme high resolution/bitrate/quality profiles before there is any noticeable advantage (other than encoding time) for h.264 that webm cannot match reasonably closely. Such videos simply aren't used over the web.


Then see for example on page 27 (the same page I pointed out in the old thread) how x264 constantly out performs VP8 at ANY BITRATE. How can you still say that VP8 is better than x264? Do you have evidence?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: Big picture...
by Kochise on Wed 27th Mar 2013 07:34 in reply to "RE[5]: Big picture..."
Kochise Member since:
2006-03-03

VP8 is at least free. For most people youtube quality is enough and are not expecting Full HD. The quality difference is not that abyssal as you say.

Kochise

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Big picture...
by lemur2 on Wed 27th Mar 2013 07:42 in reply to "RE[6]: Big picture..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

VP8 is at least free. For most people youtube quality is enough and are not expecting Full HD. The quality difference is not that abyssal as you say.

Kochise


Agreed. As you say, not only is it not that much of a quality difference (at quality levels as used on the web), but also one can match that quality per bit using VP8 by choosing a higher profile for VP8. There will be a penalty to pay in terms of encoding time, but as long as one is prepared to pay that encoding-time penalty, then with VP8 one can still achieve the same performance as h.264 in all other parameters (for the video quality levels that are commonly used over the web).

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Big picture...
by saynte on Wed 27th Mar 2013 07:44 in reply to "RE[6]: Big picture..."
saynte Member since:
2007-12-10

I didn't say it was abysmal, did you see that somewhere?

I just said x264 has shown to provide better quality.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: Big picture...
by lemur2 on Wed 27th Mar 2013 07:35 in reply to "RE[5]: Big picture..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"
Your recollection is utterly inaccurate. The conclusion was that, for video on the web resolution and bitrates, if you are prepared to put up with a slower encoding speed, then for a given number of bits you absolutely can make at least as good if not better encoded video with webm as you can with h.264.

You have to go to extreme high resolution/bitrate/quality profiles before there is any noticeable advantage (other than encoding time) for h.264 that webm cannot match reasonably closely. Such videos simply aren't used over the web.


Then see for example on page 27 (the same page I pointed out in the old thread) how x264 constantly out performs VP8 at ANY BITRATE. How can you still say that VP8 is better than x264? Do you have evidence?
"

All one has to do is go to a higher profile (at the cost of encoding time). You would argue that one can go to a higher profile also for h.264, and that is true, but one can go to a higher profile again for VP8, and so the two chase one another until we reach such a high profile that it is beyond what is used on the web.

As I said, for any h.264 video such as might be actually used on the web, for a given number of bits, it is possible to get a VP8 video to match the h.264 video as long as one is prepared to take a longer time to encode the VP8 file (normally done by having to use a higher profile).

This does not say that VP8 is better than h.264, it merely says that one can get the equivalent quality per bit (as far as any blind test can tell, within the range of quality as is used over the web), provided one is prepared to take the hit in encoding time.

Since videos over the web are commonly decoded & rendered thousands, if not millions, of times more often than they are encoded, if there is one area where a compromise has to be made, the encoding time is the best area to choose.

Edited 2013-03-27 07:36 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: Big picture...
by saynte on Wed 27th Mar 2013 07:49 in reply to "RE[6]: Big picture..."
saynte Member since:
2007-12-10


All one has to do is go to a higher profile (at the cost of encoding time). You would argue that one can go to a higher profile also for h.264, and that is true, but one can go to a higher profile again for VP8, and so the two chase one another until we reach such a high profile that it is beyond what is used on the web.


False, the high-quality presets were used in both cases. That test represents the upper limit, that's why I used it. There is not an infinite ladder of profiles, there are just a handful.

Seriously, can you stop now? You haven't presented any hard evidence, so there's nothing to discuss until you do.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[7]: Big picture...
by zima on Mon 1st Apr 2013 22:42 in reply to "RE[6]: Big picture..."
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Since videos over the web are commonly decoded & rendered thousands, if not millions, of times more often than they are encoded, if there is one area where a compromise has to be made, the encoding time is the best area to choose.

I don't know, a strong majority of YT videos is mostly ignored... only very few reach "thousands, if not millions" views.

Reply Parent Score: 2