Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 21st Jun 2013 19:08 UTC
Legal "Britain's spy agency GCHQ has secretly gained access to the network of cables which carry the world's phone calls and internet traffic and has started to process vast streams of sensitive personal information which it is sharing with its American partner, the National Security Agency. The sheer scale of the agency's ambition is reflected in the titles of its two principal components: Mastering the Internet and Global Telecoms Exploitation, aimed at scooping up as much online and telephone traffic as possible. This is all being carried out without any form of public acknowledgement or debate." Woah.
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RE: Comment by marcp
by AndyB on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 14:12 UTC in reply to "Comment by marcp"
AndyB
Member since:
2013-03-22

Well you basically have 3 options:

1) Stop using telephones and the internet.

2) Be vary wary in the knowledge that someone may be tracking your every conversation.

3) Carry on regardless.

Personally, i'm with the 3rd option! Much as I don't like that governments can track my communications, if you live a decent, law abiding life then you have nothing to worry about. I'm not saying you have to be a saint all the time, we all have our wobbles and do daft stuff from time to time, but if you are generally law abiding then there is really nothing to worry about!

Edited 2013-06-22 14:13 UTC

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Janvl on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 14:26 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Janvl Member since:
2007-02-20

Reactions like that would have been the ultimate wet dream for Erich Honecker.

Just a little advise, look up he word democracy in a dictionary.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[3]: Comment by marcp
by Adurbe on Mon 24th Jun 2013 09:57 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by marcp"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

Who lives in a Democracy?

In the UK we are a Constitutional monarchy (as are most of the commonwealth) and America is a Republic... as far as I am aware, there isn't a single true democracy in the world..

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Gullible Jones on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 14:39 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

Which is totally not the point. The situation is not dangerous yet, but it is absolutely ripe for abuse.

Think about it a bit. Governments now have the tools to enforce a totalitarian state much more effectively than in the olden days. What happens to your law-abiding citizens when the law starts to diverge from ethics?

As a matter of fact, we already live in a runaway gonzo-capitalist society - "greedist," as Iain Banks put it - that accommodates many unethical things. People who oppose said system and said things are already targets of the media's ire. What happens now that the government can learn everything about those people?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Gullible Jones on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 14:46 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

I would also draw another analogy: power over others is the One Ring. Wear it for too long, and you will become a slave to it, no matter how strong-willed and ethical you start out.

Spying programs like this definitely qualify IMO. Government officials can become invisible, as it were; they can learn everything about citizens, without any public oversight. This is incredibly corrupting stuff.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Lennie on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 15:55 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Lennie Member since:
2007-09-22

I don't think that is the solution.

I want all the protocols to have privacy built in. That way, it's not any extra work and people will less technical ability can enjoy the benefits too.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by BushLin on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 17:36 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
BushLin Member since:
2011-01-26

What if the person after you isn't following the law, what is the person is a private investigator working for someone very unreasonable... are you happy for every detail of your life to fall into their hands?

What if someone with power didn't like you expressing an opinion on something political, do you mind being under surveillance then?

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by marcp on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 21:15 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
marcp Member since:
2007-11-23

These are your options, my authority-loving friend. It doesn't mean there aren't other.

Let me tell you one thing as the simplest example here:
People involved in PRISM were also using it to ... spy on their own wives and relatives.
Where's decency? where's good behavior and ethics? It's like your god telling you to avoid killing and killing people in the same time.

Maybe now you'll see the point.

POWER CORRUPTS. TRANSPARENCY IS THE KEY AND SOLUTION.

Sorry for the caps, but it had to be said this way.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Comment by marcp
by zima on Thu 27th Jun 2013 20:36 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by marcp"
zima Member since:
2005-07-06

Where's decency? where's good behavior and ethics? It's like your god telling you to avoid killing and killing people in the same time.

Isn't that what pretty much all the gods do? ;)

PS. Another danger - easier spying on foreign officials, and having that way some leverage over them.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Morgan on Sat 22nd Jun 2013 22:58 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

I don't think you understood marcp's point. I believe he was saying that the government leaders who have been authorizing the spying will be the ones on the run from the public at large. Personally I don't see that happening, but I'm pretty sure that was what he meant.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by Soulbender on Sun 23rd Jun 2013 02:51 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

if you live a decent, law abiding life then you have nothing to worry about.


Funny, that's the argument the USSR and East Germany used.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by unclefester on Sun 23rd Jun 2013 04:27 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
unclefester Member since:
2007-01-13

First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

Dietrech Bonhoffer

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[3]: Comment by marcp
by RshPL on Sun 23rd Jun 2013 12:24 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by marcp"
RshPL Member since:
2009-03-13

Did not know the quote, thanks.. however

... Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.

Quite ironic, considering that NSDAP stands for "Nationalsozialistische".

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[3]: Comment by marcp
by oskeladden on Sun 23rd Jun 2013 18:32 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by marcp"
oskeladden Member since:
2009-08-05

First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

Dietrech Bonhoffer


The quote is not from Bonhoeffer, but from Martin Niemöller.

Unlike Niemöller, who initially welcomed Hitler's assumption of power, Bonhoeffer opposed him from the very start - two days after Hitler took power, Bonhoeffer delivered a radio address condemning "the leader who makes an idol of himself." There was no doubt of whom he spoke. Bonhoeffer was one of the very first to call upon the Church to act against the Nazi persecution of the Jews, in his essay "The Church and the Jewish Question", published less than three months after Hitler came to power.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by marcp
by cjmuk on Mon 24th Jun 2013 10:04 in reply to "RE: Comment by marcp"
cjmuk Member since:
2013-01-16

I swear I shiver every time I hear something like 'if you live a decent, law abiding life then you have nothing to worry about'.

Fresh in the UK news this week is an account about how the Police trawled for evidence to discredit the family of a boy who was murdered at a bus-stop in the early 90s (Stephen Lawrence) because they wanted to defend against criticism of the Police's handling of the case. There was no internet (as we know it now) so they had to send an undercover officer onto the job, but imagine how easy it would be now, with all this information on tap.

See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/23/stephen-lawrence-undercove...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Comment by marcp
by ASmith on Mon 24th Jun 2013 18:07 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by marcp"
ASmith Member since:
2012-02-10

I swear I shiver every time I hear something like 'if you live a decent, law abiding life then you have nothing to worry about'.

Fresh in the UK news this week is an account about how the Police trawled for evidence to discredit the family of a boy who was murdered at a bus-stop in the early 90s (Stephen Lawrence) because they wanted to defend against criticism of the Police's handling of the case. There was no internet (as we know it now) so they had to send an undercover officer onto the job, but imagine how easy it would be now, with all this information on tap.

See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/23/stephen-lawrence-undercove...

-------------------------------------------------------

Many folks do no realize how many officials in defense contractors and government agencys are on the payrolls of the multi-billion dollar drug cartels as well as other neferious organisations who thru their paid agents can access that same information for carrying out murders, extortion and blackmail.

Even former President Clinton related his concern about Israeli pressure on their intercepts of his phone calls regarding the huge at that time exposure of his having an affair with a young intern in the oval office. PRISM and before PRISM has two Israeli firms that designed the cloning of the telecom cable and main relay point communications streams which all calls are routed thru.

Children that have suddenly found themselves misplaced onto terrorists watch lists have found it is impossible for their parents to remove them. That could and likely will cost those young citizens MILLIONs in lost employment during their lifespans as nearly all employers in the west run extensive background checks on potential and current employees.

Familys now must be rightly concerned what their children state in a blog, forum or sms text to friends could and would be used against them and their loved ones decades later if not sooner. Disembarking in a foreign nation and finding you or a family member had a red flag based on a data intercept years earlier and preventing you from entering that country, preventing you from obtaining a visa is going to be going from a rare occurrence to a much more common shocker which I seriously doubt main stream western media is going to even publish.

Journalists now are routinely being threatened with espionage and felony charges for simply reporting on such events in real-time much less reporting on whistleblowers who expose criminal actions by government and military officials whose ethical and moral conduct must be impeccable yet now are going after those that expose their criminal actions.

Reply Parent Score: 1