TheRegister reports that Motorola boosting its PPC processors by 20 percent. According to the article, “With Apple expected to announce a shift to IBM’s 64-bit PowerPC 970 processor in just a few weeks’ time, the timing of Motorola’s announcement takes on a new relevance.” Additionally, iSync 1.1 adds broader phone support, Safari bookmarks while QuickTime 6.3 adds 3GPP, improves iApp support.
Apple CPU Plot Thickens; Apple Software Releases
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Is it even safe right now to go grab a powerbook (following the price drop) when there’s a big chance apple is changing direction?
Yes, it is safe.
I was explaining this to a friend the other day. It is absolutely safe to buy any G4 machine, while I would not buy a G3. If Apple in 2 years is forced to drop CPU support that would be for G3.
And even if Apple goes with other architectures, G4/G3 will STILL be supported for _at least_ 2 to 3 years. So yes, it is safe.
Could it be that the G4 could be just used in the laptop and low end MACs? The shift has been to put them into the lower end machines.
that articles strongly suggest that G4s will be the low power option that is targeted to laptops or at least to some laptops. I wonder if the 970 will make it to laptops? How is the 970 on power?
Yes, I guess that the powerbook is a good deal no matter how you look at it for the price. I think I’ll go for that. Besides, if apple was to stop supporting it too soon for me, I’d just get gentoo ppc on it
iMovie also has a small update, to 3.0.3. Not in softwareupdate yet, but you can download it. It has massive speed improvements on my G3 ibook.
Isn’t it great to be a Mac owner these days ? Look at Isync. Wonderful stuff. OS X is the best OS I’ve ever owned. With faster machines on the horizon who would want to even consider any of these “get back in line, the choice is grey or grey” PC dudes.
It’s truly wonderful being a Mac owner, it’s made me more happy !
Well, I dunno, my PC looks nice. It’s a dark metallic-color with a transparent window, a red-lit fan and silver decor. I hate beige
When I get a laptop though, it will probably be an Apple one. I can put Linux on it anyway, and those things really are nifty.
I have a 12″ PB and I’m glad I have it as it’s turned out to be a really nice piece of work. With that $200 price drop, I wouldn’t hesitate to get it. Apple’s slogan has been that this is “the year of the laptop”. So, I wonder what these price drops and new processors are adding up to?
I find it interesting that flinstone feels that it is “great to be a Mac owner these days,” when his own subject reflects that he may be “exiting.”
These new manufacturing methods *do* signify exciting times ahead – not just in Motorola’s world. Imagine AMD’s beasts fabricated at 90nm and not being able to fry eggs on it!
Kudos to Motorola on their success. Now, show me da chips.
The article also says that IBM might add Altivec execution units to their G3 class CPUs. Afterwards, what makes the G3 different from a G4? Diff die size and cache? Why bother do it then if they can just stick a G4 in an iBook?
I think Apple would have even more of a hit on their hands if they managed to get dual G4’s in the 17″ alBook.
And the potentially cheaper new G4’s also beg the question of whether or not we’ll see a headless iMac/eMac soon.
IBM had better have the 970’s ready to go, however. I’d hate to see just another load of Motorola come WWDC.
I wonder if Moto can actually ship what they promise. There’s no official word on the 970 but it is interesting that IBM advertises the SIMD of the 970 as Altivec versus VMX.
All the software I have keeps getting better! BlueTooth 1.2.1 is also in Software Update.
The other half of the year should be pretty exciting with new processors and hardware that can run MacOSX right without having to resort to dual processors.
I upgraded quicktime via the built-in software update, now, after the reboot, my system stalls periodically and for significant periods of time. If I click on an icon in the dock to launch an app, the dock immediately freezes for 5-10 seconds, then the icon starts bouncing for another 20 seconds or so, then the spinning color wheel cursor goes for a while, then finally the app appears. Almost any action seems to be able to cause the freeze, or at least any action that causes a non-loaded resource to be accessed.
Once an app has loaded the first time, subsequent opens (after fully quiting the app) are as fast as usual. I have 1 Gig of RAM, so I’m guessing the cache is the reason for that.
When things freeze, I am getting the following processes via top…
473 c++filt3…
472 crashdump…
471 fix_prebin…
Anyone else having these issues? Anyone know of a workaround?
run Disk Utility and also create a boot CD using BootCD.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/15196
Also give Cocktail a try, it can be found at VT as well.
No problems with the update for me. If you have this problems frequently run Disk Utility before updates. You may have prebinding errors.
I recently bought a Dual 1.25GHz powermac. On the way home from the store, I started wondering, that money would buy a lot of Mhz in the x86 world. Once I got home and started using it for a while, I have absolutly NO regrets. I really like the way Apple is headed, even if they get a lot of bad press about their 3% marketshare. Apple is doing a lot right. Yea, I know, they are expensive machines, but I don’t regret the money I spent one bit ( even though I did on the way home from the store). I haven’t yet to find a quality keyboard for x86 that I really like at any price. Noisy fans, cheap cases, etc. Gone.
As far as processors go, I predicted before that Apple will dual source the processors. Motorola for low end and laptops, and use the PPC970 for mid to high end stuff. I’m sure that Apple would like to have some nice margin machines in their lineup for a while ( remember the FX ?). The 970 won’t be ready for a laptop for a long time, if ever.
One more point, I’m pretty sure that some G3’s are actually IBM produced PPC.
Thanks for the suggestions. I’ll give them a shot. This is the first time I’ve had any problems at all with Software Update (or Mac OS X in general). Why this update triggered it, I have not a clue.
“With Apple expected to announce a shift to IBM’s 64-bit PowerPC 970 processor in just a few weeks’ time, the timing of Motorola’s announcement takes on a new relevance.”
I’m not entirely certain it does. This processor may be destined for high performance embedded applications, such as medical hardware. On the other hand, if Apple uses this chip at all, it will be for a portables line (most likely the iBook) considering the enhancements to the process will also lower the processor’s heat dissipation, much like between the Athlon’s Palomino and Thoroughbred lines. My guess would be PowerBooks will become exclusively PPC970-based, and perhaps the iBook can step up and use this new Motorola processor at some point in the future.
One more point, I’m pretty sure that some G3’s are actually IBM produced PPC.
Correct, the processor in iBooks is manufactured by IBM. While IBM does manufacture those G3 counterpart chips, they don’t currently manufacture a G4 counterpart. By adding an AltiVec unit to their G3 core, they’d have what is essentially a G4 processor, just clocked lower (for mobile use)
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/3262
Apple users can rejoice over this news. It’s always nice to have multiple supplier options for hardware, and the extra speed is badly needed. I like it also that Apple is getting more aggressive in their laptop pricing. I especially hope the 970 pans out.
Thanks. Great info. I am back to normal now.
Check it out here:
http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDF2003_EUROPE_H1101.pdf
.
– Mark
Given the $AUS900 price drop on the 12″ powerbook, it *seems* tempting, as mentioned by previous commenters:
if apple was to stop supporting it too soon for me, I’d just get gentoo ppc on it
and
When I get a laptop though, it will probably be an Apple one. I can put Linux on it anyway, and those things really are nifty.
However, I have a few concerns about running Linux on a PPC, should I turf the installed OS for reasons of familiarity/performance.
(a) Hardware support: Is airport extreme supported yet? Do, as someone suggested otherwise, nvidia cards work acceptably?
(b) lag with Java releases. OSX has historically been tardy with respect to J2SE, it’ll be interesting to see if they keep up in future.
With that in mind, there are 2 possible alternatives:
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/other/portingplans.h…
http://blackdown.org/
Neither have a shipping Apple-flavoured JDK 1.4 release; time will tell.
(c) speed of http://bochs.sourceforge.net/ running java within x86 linux with PPC Linux as the X11 display
As a Java developer, it might make sense just to buy a thinkpad, but the form factor of a power[i]book is certainly tempting, as is the novelty of OSX.
Go to the terminla, if you have administrator or root access, and type:
sudo sh /etc/daily/
Enter your password, let it run, and then repeat the process with /etc/weekly/ and /etc/monthly/. You might also want to pick up a copy of Cocktial, as oberto suggests, and using it to fix your prebindings. since Process 471 sounds like it’s related to a prebinding problem.
Ibm takes the servers and desktop and Mototorola takes the embeeded market (low-power – low Mhz): laptops
Ibm chips will be very good in the future for apple: Multithreaded, multichip (present in power4) and they will use the ht links for multiprocessors Xservers(apple is co sponsor of ht consortium).
What is shocking look at page 35 :
Dual Core – cost effective solution !!! My god AMD will implement it if it’s “cost effective” cheap
Go Dual Core Hammer Go … http://www.flickerdown.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=34655#34655
“I haven’t yet to find a quality keyboard for x86 that I really like at any price. Noisy fans, cheap cases, etc. Gone.”
I found a really nice keyboard for the x86. A friend of mine gave it to me for ~20$. It’s an apple pro keyboard. Yes, the Apple USB keyboards work just fine. I run it with a small shuttle xpc. Small, simple, quiet. I’ve replaced the fans inside to make it even more quiet. I don’t view this as a downside or a shot at the system. After all, some of the dual 1.25 G4s shipped with loud fans too.
I’d still consider buying a Mac though. I just don’t have the cash to try it right now.
The articles at the register sure make me think that mot is looking to play a larger role in the computer CPU business. Perhaps motorola is getting scared. Intel’s massive speed push has left them in a good position to go after the embedded market with ARM products.
Intels manufacturing prowless, paid for by the pc market, may enable intel to break into DSPs, embedded chips, and DSP-based ASICs, which you see in cell phones. mot can’t like that.
Perhaps they realize that breaking intel’s dominance in CPUs might be pivotal to mot’s own existence. Perhaps they’ve realized that apples can make them a bit of cash. Then again this is motorola we are talking about. They screwed up the cellular phone and infrastructure, semiconductor, and lots of other markts. Perhaps cisco or other network gear makers want a dual core powerpc. Perhaps motorola just seeks to put itself out of its own misery.
Not long bought a dual 1.42 & 20″ cinema display. LOads of money and way ott for what I really want.
When I first set it up and tried playing a cd only one of the speakers was working. Bugger I thought I might have to return the speakers for a swap. About 30 seconds later a little box appeared on the screen telling me that the OS thought that there was a problem with the speakers and would I like to try plugging them in again. I did that and discovered that they weren’t plugged in firmly.
Now of course I would have tried that myself eventually but it was darn impressive that the machine detected that the speakers were not in properly. On many occasions my PC has not done the same.
Its only a little thing but at the time it made me think “wow”.
IBM has always flopped on new processors, thats what killed IBM in the old days they kept announcing new exciting PowerPC chips but the chips were severly delayed and IBM never mand its time estimates.
Personally I think that Apple should team up with IBM’s AIX/PowerPC business. IBM concertrates on the High End Servers and Ultra-High-End Workstations and Apple concerntrates on Workstations and consumer desktops. It is a win-win situation for IBM.
It is a win to IBM because they (IBM) get a large customer which boosts their chip productions, thus economies of scale, thus lower costs. Apple win in that they can provide to customers a long term road map with the backing of one the largest information technologies companys.
If customers see that there is a future for PowerPC beyond the Motorolla days, then you will see a boost in sales to people who may have been concerned about the long term prospects for Apple.
Roberto’s comment right above yours states that IBM doesn’t have a good track record for delivery things on time. Motorola’s problem is they don’t deliver good CPUs period but they do deliver. You think it’s a good idea for Apple to partner up with someone filled with pipe dreams and never gets to work on time? Hehehe. Ok maybe I should give IBM more credit than that, they do have more money and resources than me afterall.
I just read an article on TheRegister with more details about the 7457: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31031.html
It states that the PPC chips Apple uses have a core voltage of 1.85V. I thought PPC chips were support to be less power hungry than, oh say, x86? An Athlon Thoroughbred-B has a core voltage of 1.65V and so does the Pentium4 is not less. Yet the x86 chips can run at higher clockspeeds even with that voltage. Am I over thinking this too much?
{ I haven’t yet to find a quality keyboard for x86 that I really like at any price. Noisy fans, cheap cases, etc. Gone.}
I have to say Apples Pro Keyboard is nice, I myself use it on my PC, bought it at CompUSA, have no need for the one button mouse tho. I have always found the fans on the Xserve and the G4s to be extremely noisy. I have even gutted a G4 case and mounted a x86 motherboard and yes I use that machine, I like Apples designs but I hate the hardware they use, the PPC has always and continues to be a flop, While everyone touts OS X as being better than sex, OS X really has alot of problems that need to be overcomed before I would even consider it. I like the x86 world, its cheaper and there are hundreds if not thousands of dealers out here for x86 hardware, in the PPC world you only have Apple. I like Linux and yes I do have some Macs for running PowerPC Linux. Overall I think that the PC world has better quality and affordability.
I love it when people compare expensive Macs with a cheap computer with cheap heatsinks, cheap fans, cheap keyboards, ugly cases but an fast processor. Hello? I can get my PC to be quieter than a dual processor PowerMac if I wanted to – and I did. My room fan in fact makes more noise now, if not drowned out by the speakers. My keyboard, while rather expensive, is responsive and more quieter than the default one given with Macs – and have a lot of map-able keys to play around.
So really, if you compare a Mac with one of those from stores advertising on their low low low price instead of quality, well I would agree, the Mac sounds much better. But then again, just spend a little more time on research, and viola, you would probably get a better deal on the hardware scale. Unless of course you are a sucker for Mac OS X (or OS 9)
Well put rajan r. Wonder if any of those Mac users ever had the pleasure of owning a Falcon NW system or Alienware.
> It states that the PPC chips Apple uses have a core voltage of 1.85V. I thought PPC chips were support to be less power hungry than, oh say, x86? An Athlon Thoroughbred-B has a core voltage of 1.65V and so does the Pentium4 is not less. Yet the x86 chips can run at higher clockspeeds even with that voltage. Am I over thinking this too much?
Try looking at how many amperes or watts (amperes x voltage) each chip draws.
{ I love it when people compare expensive Macs with a cheap computer with cheap heatsinks, cheap fans, cheap keyboards, ugly cases but an fast processor. Hello? I can get my PC to be quieter than a dual processor PowerMac if I wanted to – and I did. My room fan in fact makes more noise now, if not drowned out by the speakers. My keyboard, while rather expensive, is responsive and more quieter than the default one given with Macs – and have a lot of map-able keys to play around. }
Well my cheap computers have outlived all the Macs I have ever owned in the past. This Laptop that I use for work is a 366 Mhz celeron with a 9 gig HD with 286 mb of RAM, I have had this computer since the latter half of 1998, it has buried 2 iBooks, 2 G3 towers and 1 G4 tower and it outlived my ex-girlfriends TiBook, the Macs had either video card problems, Motherboard Problems, Logic Board problems or like with the Ti, the ti had battery and had major vid card problems and the 366 goes through the paces, I use it for Presentations, debugging, builds when feasible and numerous other functions and yes I can play a few games on it. Granted it may have lived this long because it has always been a Linux laptop, if it had Windows I probably would have had to get rid of it a long time ago, the only problem I had was with the CD-ROM but that has been replaced. The Sony tower I have had since 2001 has had the same success, and yes I gutted the G4 and slapped in a Compaq Presario board and got it to work. While Im sure others have had some success with the Macs my main problem is that I cannot justify buying Macs when it does nothing either better or worse than the PC, Linux is a great OS. These have been my experiences with the PC, Im sorry I dont buy into all the Mac hype and that I dont march in a line like a good little indian to Steve Jobs vision. When Rhapsody first came out I did buy into the Mac hype and I got one of the G3 towers to run Rhapsody, Rhapsody in my opinion was the best version of Mac OS X Server, its gone downhill from there ever since.
I’ll believe that Apple has fast new machines when they ship.
Apple is like a car manufacture that shows amazing concept cars. In fact I’m reminded of the ‘New’ VW Beetle when I think of Apple – looks great but slow and expensive. The beetle sold well initially until people realised it was overpriced and overated once the PR hype died down.
I agree totally with rajan r. Stop comparing Apples with similar performing PCs costing a 1/3 the price. You can make a PC “silent” (<20dB) with a little bit of effort – even water cooled if you choose. The best PC components are superbly crafted and much better than anything Apple has to offer. Dell, Compaq etc are <not> high qaulity they are made in the <same> Chinese/Taiwanese OEM factories that make Apples.
To clarify, if the processor is much less efficient even at a lower voltage. If the processor has a much higher resistance (ohms) to current (amperes) it will have to draw more current with even a slightly lower voltage. (Ohm’s law)
An example:
A 60 watt lightbulb using a 120 volt power source (in the USA) will use less power then the starter in your car using 12 volts.
I got a “C” in electronics class back in high school, my ignorance of this CPU voltage issue proves it, hehehe.
I never learned it in High School. I ended up learning it studying for a HAM license. But it explains why pentiums run so hot. The high resistance to the current is the electrical energy being converted to heat.
“I love it when people compare expensive Macs with a cheap computer with cheap heatsinks, cheap fans, cheap keyboards, ugly cases but an fast processor.”
Hello, welcome to the world of Windows users. You, yourself, Rajan make claims that Windows is so, so much cheaper than an Apple machine.
“Hello? I can get my PC to be quieter than a dual processor PowerMac if I wanted to – and I did. My room fan in fact makes more noise now, if not drowned out by the speakers. My keyboard, while rather expensive, is responsive and more quieter than the default one given with Macs – and have a lot of map-able keys to play around.”
Now you are telling us that you have to then also resort to aftermarket products to get the quality of an Apple machine. Just how much money have you wasted and then repurchased in your purchasing practices?
“So really, if you compare a Mac with one of those from stores advertising on their low low low price instead of quality, well I would agree, the Mac sounds much better.”
Just reitterating my point from above…..
“But then again, just spend a little more time on research, and viola, you would probably get a better deal on the hardware scale.”
What if you also done so research on the Apple side? And your failure to mention the price of the Windows OS, does that mean that you have gotten the fact that Windows OS costs more than a Mac OS solution.
“Unless of course you are a sucker for Mac OS X (or OS 9)”
…And you must be a sucker for Office, that Windows is doing something about security and that Windows server environments are cost effective solutions. How much does Windows cost a company?
Now you are telling us that you have to then also resort to aftermarket products to get the quality of an Apple machine. Just how much money have you wasted and then repurchased in your purchasing practices?
You see, some PC users build their systems and avoid that mess altogether. Can you build a Mac with all the components you actually want? If something simple like the power supply or a fan fails, can you easily replace it by yourself or do you take it to an Apple store, or worst still mail it away to be fixed?
What if you also done so research on the Apple side? And your failure to mention the price of the Windows OS, does that mean that you have gotten the fact that Windows OS costs more than a Mac OS solution.
http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=604631
$137.99 for Windows XP Pro. Yeah, it’s much more expensive than Jaguar’s $129. Oh, I hear you saying OSX comes with more usful apps like email, iMovie, iTunes… Windows has those too, but third party software vendors exist because not everyone is happy with the stuff that’s bundled and the same holds true for Mac software.
…And you must be a sucker for Office, that Windows is doing something about security and that Windows server environments are cost effective solutions. How much does Windows cost a company?
Ever notice how news articles report a ton about how things go wrong or how bad something is? If all goes well and dandy why would it be news? The mere fact that by using Microsoft products a company can expose themselves to a broader market and increase revenue is enough to compensate for such loses.
I dislike both Apple and Microsoft by the way. Catch me in a Windows thread and I might have a thing or 2 to say about them.
I find these ongoing comparisons of Apple computers and PC’s to be drudgery. They are set up in completely different ways. With a PC, things are set up so that you can build your own, if you desire. But, at the very least, you can do a lot of mixing and matching, much more than on Macs. They are just different in how they do things.
Hey truce for a few minutes. I was just wondering where about the G4 case that you gutted – which motherboard did you put in it? Do you think it could hold a P4 motherboard? Last time I looked someone had mentioned they need extra mounting screws for the heatsink fan combination on the P4s. I wasn’t sure if the Apple cases supported this.
ohm’s law, V = I R
Hope you don’t mind my input.
The stock HSF that comes with most modern P4’s are clip ons and don’t require the use of the mounting screws. At least that’s how it is with mine and I own/dealt with several P4 systems. From the looks of the G4 tower case, you’ll probably have to use a microATX P4 motherboard, and replace the power supply.
I work in a shop where we sell PC and Mac solutions. We help the customers with config. to order PCs which are put together by a number of different “reputable” PC shops, and we also deal with Alienware. Anyone who has claimed that the PC can be built better with “quality” parts vs. a Mac has got to be stuck in their own little reality distortion field. A monkey can compare a Power Mac or PowerBook with a PC and be able to tell that the Macs are just designed and built better. Yes, you can slap together a “nice” PC with watercooling and flashy lights but I’m sorry, they are still crap and you can tell. Most PC cases are also hideous and badly designed from a practical standpoint.
One last thing: I can’t even count the number of config to order systems, including Alienware, that are constantly coming back into our service center with issues. The only Macs that come in are for routine upgrades, or old iMacs with dead clock batteries.
I would like to lay this myth the Apple is better quality than Dell , etc to bed.
We just recently purchased an ibook and a Dual 1.25 gig Power Mac. The i-book just feels like junk compared to my HP notebook. The keyboard is atrocious. The Power Mac is so loud when the fan comes on that the first time I heard it I thought it was a vacuum cleaner. People in our office all stopped what they were doing to try and find out what was causing the noise.
Having said that I am interested in the new powerbooks. I hope the keyboard on those is superior to the ibook which like is said is an embarresment to Apple. To say that it is a quality product means you have drunk the cool aid.
I’m typing on an iBook right now and the keyboard feels quite responsive and nice. I’ve used 3 laptops and this one has been the best as far as the keyboard is concerned. The whole notebook is very well put together. In comparison, my Sony laptop feels very cheap even though it was originally $600 more than the iBook. I’ve also had an IBM Thinkpad, which I’d have to say had very good build quality, but I disliked the keyboard and besides, I had to give the computer back after leaving that job. I now deal with HP and Compaq laptops at work (as well as other PC laptops) and I’d have to completely disagree with your statement about the HP. The plastic feels very cheap and the notebooks creak when you move them. There are constantly problems with their USB and 1394 ports. Customers always complain about battery life and degradation. HP and Compaq laptops, btw, are the most common that come through our tech shop for service.
As far as your Dual 1.25 being loud: call Apple, I believe they are still offering quieter fans and power supplies for only $19.99.
Last time I checked the Power chips belong to all three.
crap continue? Seriously. Both achieve similar results. Some just prefer to be a part of that Mac “community”. Some just like the design of the Mac “hardware”.
All of a sudden a Mac thread about Motorola processors turned into a comparison of Macs and PCs.
Both sides need to back away.
Why do these Mac posts always degenerate to some fool jumping on pricewatch and saying how you can build a PC for $1.25 and Macs are junk.
Apple put out a fix for the loud power supplies for $19.99. Want something quieter? try Verax, they have kits for G4s. People have also watercooled G4s with PC watercooling kits.
The iBook keyboard has too much flex, the PowerBook G4 12″ is better overall.
Don’t compare googlegear searches of Windows for MSRP retail price of Jaguar thats just a dumb comparison.
As far as build quality goes compare OEM to OEM not homebrew to OEM. Thats like saying your time traveling Delorean is faster than a Viper. A $2000 HP or Sony does NOT have better build quality than a G4 desktop. Its faster but forget it with the build quality, its not there.
I have a G4 and a homebrew PC. Your not going to get into a case better than a G4 unless it is a CoolerMaster or Alienware. Lian-Li feels like its as thin as a mailbox and this is already over $100 for a case. Few homebrew PC users have really nice cases that don’t border on just gaudy looking with neon lights and poor paint jobs. I also do not know of any PC users that own Alienware or Falcon Northwest systems.
Ah I didn’t know that. Thanks
I’ve yet to see a non-apple case where the whole side panel folds out. I figure it would be great for a PC once my power mac gets too old.