Home > Mono > Mono 1.1.5 Released Mono 1.1.5 Released Submitted by Jon Davidson 2005-03-24 Mono 78 Comments Mono 1.1.5 has been released; Major highlights include Nullable Types and Fixed Size Buffer features in the compiler; Much more improved Windows.Forms implementations; Increased performance, reduced memory usage. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 78 Comments 2005-03-24 3:23 pm Those guys move fast. 2005-03-24 3:52 pm Still no Solaris package. Does this imply that it is not considered enterprise ready ? 2005-03-24 4:13 pm Still no Solaris package. Does this imply that it is not considered enterprise ready ? Nope, just that it’s not important. 2005-03-24 4:17 pm > Still no Solaris package. Does this imply that it is not considered enterprise ready ? Nope, just that it’s not important. Shame most of the corporate enterprise I come into contact with is primarily Solaris based. This indicates that Mono is aimed toward Desktop use ? 2005-03-24 4:18 pm too bad the installer is still broken for debian.. 2005-03-24 4:25 pm But there’s no package for BSD either. That’s the usual Ximian approach, they basically disregard anything but linux in the open source world. There never was an Ximian gnome for BSD/Solaris either. 2005-03-24 4:36 pm Well, it seems that there aren’t BSD/Solaris people interested in Ximian software. If they were, they would have joined Ximian and released those packages. It’s not like the code is hidden, you know. 2005-03-24 4:37 pm Can’t Solaris 10 run Linux binaries natively? I used Solaris and it’s horrid CDE extensively a few years back for school… don’t care to ever venture down that road again. 2005-03-24 4:37 pm There have been some people on the lists that have gotten it to work on Solaris. The main issues have been getting libgdiplus to compile. 2005-03-24 4:37 pm Whine to you distribution’s, or operating system’s, package maintainers. The source code is open. Adapting it to different operating environment isn’t Nuclear Physics. 2005-03-24 4:37 pm I guess that Solaris just joined BSDs in getting considered a “threat” to Linux, just when Sun decided to make Solaris free. Remember that it’s no Ximian anymore… now it’s Novell that pays the bills. OSS advocates should ask themselves how come major OSS figures decided to get their money from traditional commercial companies… I guess it’s hard that Novell wishes to let SUN or BSDs use so easily code they developed to sell Linux because that could distract users from Linux and bring them to other platforms. For example, I could personally be interested in Solaris 10 + MONO mix (and I’m a Windows user), I’m less interested in a Linux + MONO mix. 2005-03-24 4:41 pm Shame most of the corporate enterprise I come into contact with is primarily Solaris based. This indicates that Mono is aimed toward Desktop use ? Exactly. .NET hasn’t exactly made inroads in the enterprise market IMHO. And on Solaris, you are expected to use Java. I use Java for enterprise apps (is anything friendlier/more secure than servlets?) and tend to go over to C/C++ for desktop apps. Java and .NET have high CPU and RAM requirements for desktop apps, and Python is a lot slower than native C/C++ because of the garbage collection and interpreter 2005-03-24 5:04 pm Having used Java in the past it is clear to me that the linux crowd never really adopted Java. I think Sun was to blame with their closes source license for Java. Mono and C# is a big thing. A lot of the new Gnome applications are being written in C# and the make use of GTK# API to create GUI applications. It works really well and when the window.forms class is finally completed I think Mono on linux, mac osx, and Windows xp will have the edge in terms of performance, cross-platform support, advanced GUI support. I have already gotten used to the idea of Mono. Even though it’s roots come from a Microsft derived tech. it would be a mistake to dismiss this technology on philisophical beliefs. For a while I thought Novell was going to bite the dust but as they change to a linux centered architecture using Mono to write cross-platform network applications I have begun to think it might be time to buy stock in Novell — possibly they are on the verge of a big turn around. 2005-03-24 5:29 pm Technologies like Java or C# will outperform others at some point – when the application gets complex, these probably among the best at least to get the complexity under control. Unfortunately, both have high cpu and ram requirements for ALL applications, not only desktop applications. 2005-03-24 5:32 pm “Shame most of the corporate enterprise I come into contact with is primarily Solaris based. This indicates that Mono is aimed toward Desktop use ?” Correct. Mono apps are mostly now quirky things that improve desktop usuability on the GUI. Servers shouldn’t even have GUIs…. 2005-03-24 5:55 pm Is Mono 100% compatible with the .NET environment ? No. Sun already had a lot of difficulties making sure Java apps work more or less in “Write Once, Run Anywhere” mode. So a software clone (of .NET, such as Mono) will always have even worse compatibility and portability problems/issues/differences. This is why Mono can not be considered seriously by businesses. Even if it’s “supported” by Novell, Mono is just a toy. 2005-03-24 6:05 pm I agree that Mono will not be taken seriously by businesses in general for several reasons, including the one you stated. I don’t see businesses using Mono over Java or even .NET. Why use a cloned technology over the real deal or over the well established industry leader (java)? Mono will take years and years to even get close to the stability of both Java and .NET and not to mention the tools department where they have a lot of catching up to do. By that time .NET and Java both will be that much years ahead of Mono, they won’t be able to keep up to .NET, not by a long shot. 2005-03-24 6:07 pm Well, the problem is not compatibility of the virtual machine or anything – it is just a gigantic amount of framework to implement. After implementing some basic, system-close stuff, you should even be able to copy assemblies from the .NET framework – of course you should not, as that would likely not be legal. 2005-03-24 6:08 pm ..oh yeah not to mention the legal aspects. I think that what Mono has to do is stir away from trying to clone .NET , they should just take what they can C# and the CLR and do their own thing. 2005-03-24 6:10 pm If I remember correctly, I read once here on a post on osnews that this might happen … well, that would likely drop “Write Once, Run Anywhere” … unless you port for example GTK# to Windows! 2005-03-24 6:21 pm It looks like Novell is going to write a runtime interpreter compatible with the SPARC instruction set ABI. Novell is building it’s software stack using Mono, and as that product line comes to fruition, Mono becomes a reality and a choice for business solutions. Shove the legal talk up your ass. I personally can’t stand Microsoft so it’s difficult for me to learn Mono, but it’s a good choice for many people none the less. It’s a good idea to develop software that has an intermediate langauge binary, because it facilitates the upgrading the hardware. You are able to keep your software investment. The real question is how long will Novell support Mono, and actively develop it. That’s the only real question. 2005-03-24 6:24 pm If Novell stands by Mono longer than Microsoft stands by .Net or SUN stands by Java, than Mono is the best choice, because your investment is more secure. It doesn’t matter how much fluff that Microsoft adds to .Net if they switch to new API’s every three or four years. 2005-03-24 6:27 pm Legal talk is far from unnecessary. Just because you want to make free software, I doubt you (will) want to make illegal software! Just because it is open source, doesn’t mean it can trample on laws. The ECMA standards are open – but that is not complete .NET. At the rest, it gets interesting. 2005-03-24 6:30 pm When did Microsoft sue Novell over Mono? When did this happen? Are you a psychic? 2005-03-24 6:36 pm Why use GNU software, after all it started as, in your words, a clone to UNIX software? Why use GCC when there is an Intel compiler avaliable? Why, why, why, …? And besides, Mono is not a clone, it’s an implementation, but it seems you don’t know the difference. Sure it clones some of .NET libraries, but that’s not the point. It’s an implementation of a technology that some people belive is good and will make software developement (on linux) easy. Also, what makes Java an established industry leader, besied PR from Sun. Don’t get me wrong I think Java is nice, just don’t think it’s all the people make it out to be. 2005-03-24 6:40 pm Poor Anonymous guy, you are just another moron. a) Who says they have to do now? b) Do you know if Novell are working on things that are really critical now? 2005-03-24 6:46 pm I really would like to know where people come off making the statements made in this thread. I currently use several applications based on mono under Linux which I thoroughly enjoy. I am not a programmer nowadays-so I don’t have a really deep knowledge of all of the developer issues surrounding mono.But I am more than competent to rebuff a bunch of the things posted here. As to why solaris and BSD are not supported I imagine it is soley due to a lack of interested solaris and BSD dev’s to help finish off a successful port of mono. In all likelihood porting it to either of these OS’s is considerably easier than porting it to MacOSX. And I am so sure that paid Sun developers are going to work on porting mono on company time From what I have gathered server-side use of mono is actually quite frequent and quite important-otherwise I don’t understand the energy put into providing ASP.NET and ADO.NET support. In all likelihood the primary usage of mono to date from windows developers has probably been focused on the server side-seeing as we are only now getting an implmentation of windows.forms. Up till now the server-side stuff was pretty much the only thing which was really portable between win and Linux. As to mono not being fully compatible-well duh, of course it is not going to be fully compatible-and I doubt sincerely that such even belongs to the immediate priorities of the mono developers. From what I have gleaned it appears as if mono is incorpating as much from .NET as possible with an eye towards helping windows developers use their skills and work under Linux. The more compatible mono is the easier this transition is- and I really believe this is the point of mono-not to compete directly with .NET on the windows platform- but to lure developers away and provide powerfull tools for Linux developers. Most focus so much on .NET compatibility-but the most distinguishing work which the mono team has done is to provide rich stacks for easier and more rapid development of software under Linux, which extends to some extent to the other platforms which mono supports. In my eyes it has become ubundantly clear that some people will never be satisfied with the potential patent issues which are raised over and over again. These people will not support mono, develop with mono, or use mono applications. Fine. But an awful lot of people are are doing these things now and certainly more will as mono further develops. I fully suspect that at some point in the not to distant future certain other major distros will endorse mono, in the meantime repositories are being established for each of the major distros completely independently. If it does become widely accepted by the large mainstream distros there will certainly be a dirth of smaller distros ‘mono-free’. At some point these potential issues will become moot relative the sheer usage-not that these issues will necessarily be resolved-but that the question itself will change. I certainly don’t see mono as taking over GNOME development in the future. But I don’t see how GNOME will progress in the future without more adequately dealing with mono. I hope that mono simply becomes one of the tools available to GNOME developers, which inspite of the issues raised over and over again is apparently slowly becoming a reality. Mono is not the answer to everything. But dismissing it casually, as is done so often, is simply foolish. 2005-03-24 6:50 pm >Unfortunately, both have high cpu and ram requirements for >ALL applications, not only desktop applications. Nope, it only depend how You code your applications and if You use profiler to find bottlenecks (memory and/or speed) and if you TUNE your jvm parameters…. Java is a lot better in this area than .NET…. What is really incredible is that for instaling .NET fw You have to accept a licence EULA which “do not allow You to publish any comparatives benchmarks”. I do now want to start a war, but this asumption java is slow and eat my memory is no more true. 2005-03-24 6:52 pm Does anyone know how well Mono and KDE perform together? 2005-03-24 7:03 pm http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfmod/project/?bsd-sharp Mono was ported to FreeBSD a long time ago. The mono project has yet to notice. 2005-03-24 7:05 pm how many distros includes mono by default ? 0 + NLD how many press release have mono every week ? 0 + osnews PR how manu programs have been developed using mono ? 0 + beagle f-spot muine ifolder how many programs developed with mono are real killer apps ? 0 why we must use mono ? BO 2005-03-24 7:13 pm It is not a useful attitude to bash on new technologies because they are new and continue working on the old rotten stuff, that is overloaded with it’s task since years. There will be killer apps for Mono … when they are developed, they will be developed much more effectively then with the “traditional” way, after all, that is what Mono is for! 2005-03-24 7:17 pm “And besides, Mono is not a clone, it’s an implementation, but it seems you don’t know the difference. Sure it clones some of .NET libraries, but that’s not the point. ” You just shot yourself in the foot there. “Also, what makes Java an established industry leader, besied PR from Sun. Don’t get me wrong I think Java is nice, just don’t think it’s all the people make it out to be.” If you’ve ever been job hunting or worked in the industry for that matter , you would see that Java is a major enterprise player. Again you are blinding yourself to the facts. But believe whatever you want to believe. Also you got to ask yourself for how long will Mono will even be supported by Novell. I don’t know , if you simply conform to the fact that the linux community should play catchup with the other OS’s then thats fine, but where is the innovation? Copying technologies won’t gain appeal to the platform. Just tell me what advantages are there to Mono? and don’t say cross platform compatibility with .NET because that hasn’t happened and probably never will. 2005-03-24 7:17 pm Muine is a killer app and Beagle too if its becomes really stable 2005-03-24 7:22 pm For example a clear framework, object orientation without ABI-problems (although those finally might settle down with g++ … after years!) .. apart from the safe languages being pratically immune to the still-often-enough-happening buffer overflow. As long as Linux can’t compete in the first two things (where Qt and GTK in the GUI sector have already made good improvements), then copying is already an improvement. And as long it is improvement, the platform gets more attractive. After all, you want to be different for a reason, not just to be different, or not? What is now neccessary are developers that don’t curse something because they don’t know/are not skilled enough for something new. 2005-03-24 7:23 pm You’re exactly right. Java-Gnome or anything Java related never took off in linux desktop developer land for some reason. Just check out #Java-gnome over at gimp.net. Right now it’s all Python and Mono. Of course Java is, and will be, big on the enterprise server for a long time to come. And Mono won’t have tools like Eclipse or IDEA for years and years to come. No, Monodevelop doesn’t count. 2005-03-24 7:29 pm In fact, from a language perspective, C# has a tiny real advantage over Java in my humble opinion – the implementation of Events/Delegates, which at least if it could be emulated somehow is not done in Java’s Framework – would make GUI coding a good deal easier then the Listeners, at least when you mess around with the GUI by hand. 2005-03-24 7:53 pm You’re exactly right. Java-Gnome or anything Java related never took off in linux desktop developer land for some reason I think it is because Java does not have the letter ‘C’ in it. If only Sun had been smart and called Java Csomething. 2005-03-24 7:55 pm Because they make money off of tools and software for mono. Think people. They LOVE MONO and DOTGNU. 2005-03-24 8:02 pm Really? how many tools and software does microsoft have for Mono? And how much money have they made off of it? Geez 2005-03-24 8:18 pm Does anyone know how well Mono and KDE perform together? They don’t . Adam Treat had KDE C# bindings down on the KDE 3.4 release plan, but they don’t appear to have turned up in the CVS. About a year ago, I started working on a version of C# bindings for Qt/KDE based on the SMOKE library that the perl and ruby Qt bindings use, but never finished it either. To me C# seems to be a solution looking for a problem. It’s a very complex systems programming language aimed at implementing cross-language components. On the other hand, how many people need that, as opposed to a RAD language like ruby or BASIC? The CLR isn’t powerful enough to implement a language like ruby, as it wouldn’t be possible to implement continuations. And the VB 6 guys don’t seem too happy with VB.NET from what I’ve read, because there are too many compromises needed to make it compatible with C#. 2005-03-24 8:21 pm Look at it like a cleaned up C++! That makes most sense in my opinion (and is the point where I would like development most). 2005-03-24 8:52 pm http://www.mono-project.com/Dead_Toolkits “how many programs developed with mono are real killer apps” What are killer apps for you ? pine 2005-03-24 8:55 pm Mono will succeed based on it’s own merits as a language based on ECMA standards and the glibc library. It is a language that programmers want to use. How many Mono apps are there? Do a search on sourceforge.net for mono. If you don’t like corporate sponsorship of OSS revoke Linus’s visa and send him home. 2005-03-24 9:02 pm Could someone post some screenshots of the revamped Windows Forms in action please? 2005-03-24 10:13 pm Still no Solaris package. Does this imply that it is not considered enterprise ready ? Although I wouldn’t consider Solaris ready for the Enterprise. If there are some cowboys out there who must use it and need mono, they can always compile mono from source. 2005-03-24 10:31 pm http://www.mono-project.com/Screenshots#Windows.Forms There is some screenshots of the old Windows.Forms. I can’t find any online of the new implementation. I believe the new implementation is currently sitting at 93% complete. 2005-03-24 11:35 pm It all comes down to what you belive mono to be. In your opinion, evident in you posts, Mono is nothing more than a close of .NET Framework. I see it as an implementation of C# compiler and core class libraries, both covered by ECMA standards, that provides developers with a solid platfrom for applications development, also having other stacks of the .NET Framework (ADO.NET, ASP.NET,…) is just an added bonus. It enables .NET developers to port their apllications to linux easier. But it’s not just that, Mono also provides it’s own stack, that enables applications (mainly on linux) to be developed independat of the non ECMA .NET stacks. About Java, I won’t argue that it’s big, but as I said I just don’t belive that it’s all that it’s hyped to be. Besides some argues that C# is java done, well not right, but better. Copying technologies won’t gain appeal to the platform I for one preffer a solid stable platform, even if copied, over innovation for sake of innovation. If someone comes up with something good, and makes it possible for others to copy that, than in my opinion it’s good. And besides innovating to much won’t really bring you much appeal, people tend to stick to what they know. And if on windows they learned C#, why not make it possible for them to using those skills on linux. How’ s that for appeal. But after all that is but my point of view, and if yours is different, I respect that. Cheers, sect2k 2005-03-24 11:37 pm In my previous post, close in the first sentence is clone. Damm, where is the Edit button? 2005-03-25 12:52 am Java is a lot better in this area than .NET…. I do now want to start a war, but this asumption java is slow and eat my memory is no more true. Java might ‘hang in there’ on the server side performance wise but its got nothing on .net when it comes to a GUI driven app that a human being interacts with. Its slow, looks really nothing like the native UI you are using and did I mention its slow ? I work with several java programs to do my job every day and I fing hate it. In fact we are in the process of rewriting them on .net because they perform like shit to put it bluntly. Then there is the lovely DirectDraw issue with the Java VM and certain video cards. You get java apps that paint all sorts of crazy on the screen and the only way to get them usable is to turn down the video acceleration on the video card. Sun claims this is an issue with the video card manufacturer. Strange that every other directdraw application we have works just fine. 2005-03-25 1:01 am And the VB 6 guys don’t seem too happy with VB.NET from what I’ve read, because there are too many compromises needed to make it compatible with C#. The VB6 guys are only pissed off because now with vb.net they can’t cut the same corners and write shitty code like they used to. They actually have to learn a bit about how a real programming language might work and there are penalties for being a dumbass in vb.net Sad but true. 2005-03-25 1:41 am > Although I wouldn’t consider Solaris ready for the Enterprise. If there are some cowboys out there who must use it and need mono, they can always compile mono from source. Ha ha, Solaris is not ready for Enterprse? Dude you’re the biggest frigging idiot I’ve seen on these forums. Solaris is THE Enterprise OS. There is no interest in Mono from Solaris crowd because Mono still is and will be nothing more than a trinket for the desktop apps, it has zero enterprise credibility and it won’t change for at least a few years to come (if ever). Even Linux crowd hates Mono because of its association with M$ and potentail legal implication. Java can do absolutely everything Mono can do only Java can do it ten times better and Java has been doing it for 10 years already (speaking of a lot of catching up to do). Go waste your time with Mono and turn yourself into an unemployable programmer while real programmers solve the real problems with Java. 2005-03-25 8:20 am Aboard the hype-ship Enterprise, buisnesses are being propelled places where no buisness have gone before, travelling through time and hype, on a quest searching for application. Beam me up scotty, where everyone is always using Enterprise as the be-all end-all measure of everything, there is no intelligent life. 2005-03-25 9:25 am no, they are pissed off because MSFT took their language and stuffed it in C# clothes. http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2005/03/21/8041.aspx You can use every language you want on the CLR, as long as it is C#. 2005-03-25 9:26 am Java might ‘hang in there’ on the server side performance wise but its got nothing on .net when it comes to a GUI driven app that a human being interacts with. Its slow, looks really nothing like the native UI you are using and did I mention its slow ? Perhaps on Windows. On OS X, Java is done right and you are hard pressed to tell the difference between a native app and a Java app. Speed is very good too. Can’t say the same about Mono, I’m afraid. Looks horrible on OS X thanks for Gtk# using X11. Cocoa# looks nowhere near ready. With Windows, if you think Swing looks bad (even with the Windows XP theme?), you could just code in SWT. Native widgets all around. Mono looks promising, but it still has a long way to go. 2005-03-25 12:26 pm > ts slow, looks really nothing like the native UI you are using and did I mention its slow ? Have you looked at http://javalobby.com/eps/galbraith-swing-2/ ? Furthermore, Swing supports themes … 2005-03-25 2:09 pm Fedora and other FOSS desktops will not include mono without some sort of written patent grant that satifies the OSS definitaion. Becuase we know, MS has said so, there are patents in the CLR and .net libraries and we have no patent grant development of mono happens at the whim of MS. If at any time they feel threatened they could close it down. Do you really want to develop a system at the behest of MS? 2005-03-25 2:12 pm To me C# seems to be a solution looking for a problem. It’s a very complex systems programming language aimed at implementing cross-language components. On the other hand, how many people need that, as opposed to a RAD language like ruby or BASIC? The CLR isn’t powerful enough to implement a language like ruby, as it wouldn’t be possible to implement continuations. And the VB 6 guys don’t seem too happy with VB.NET from what I’ve read, because there are too many compromises needed to make it compatible with C#. I think you’re quite right there Richard. C# and .Net are one of those things that look so cool, and then you look at what you would use it for….. You have to be developing with .Net full-time to really see it. What people really want is a RAD language geared to RAD development, with all the flexibility that entails. VB 6 was never a perfect solution, and a lot of it is pretty awful, but people want a flexible RAD environment and language like VB6 gave them – not that anyone thinks it is perfect. .Net as a whole, and certainly VB.Net, are not it. 2005-03-25 2:18 pm Novell is building it’s software stack using Mono, and as that product line comes to fruition, Mono becomes a reality and a choice for business solutions. Wow, so they are re-writing Groupwise, NDS, Zenworks etc. in (or for) Mono, basing Open Enterprise Server around it and they’re putting real resources in so that people (including Novell itself) will be developing Mono ASP.Net web applications rather than with J2EE? When are people going to understand that applications like Muine, F-Spot and Beagle are just not a part of Novell’s software stack? The above stuff (the stuff that actually makes the money) is. 2005-03-25 3:19 pm I guess you haven’t heard of iFolder? Rewriting software that works (Groupwise, NDS, Zen, …) just for sake of rewriting it in another language is pure stupidity and makes no business sense. But new software, like iFolder is being written in C# using Mono stack and I would assume that more future projects will be Mono based as well. And since Novell also releases it’s own branded linux (NLD), you can be sure that, at least, beagle is a part of Novell’s software stack. 2005-03-25 6:37 pm I’ve got about 10 java apps running on Windows and Solaris machines. I develop Java on Mac OS X. If there’s some issues with “Cross Platform” Java I’d like to here about those area’s. Forewarn me. 2005-03-25 6:42 pm – This isn’t news. Let us know when the STABLE release is issued. – Why is there only a Framework available on Mac OS X? Hay, Cross-Platform doesn’t just mean Suse and RedHat. 2005-03-25 6:44 pm What people really want is a RAD language geared to RAD development, with all the flexibility that entails. VB 6 was never a perfect solution, and a lot of it is pretty awful, but people want a flexible RAD environment and language like VB6 gave them – not that anyone thinks it is perfect. .Net as a whole, and certainly VB.Net, are not it. I’ve put my money where my mouth is on this one. Check out the KDevelop/Korundum ruby RAD environment. It has an integrated UI designer, source code debugger, class browser and so on.. All things being equal I would love for KDE to have C# bindings – maybe I’m wrong about C# having a limited appeal amongst ‘normal programmers’. I was very impressed by the Gambas talk at FOSDEM. The Gambas guy understands usability very well, and so rather than just wrap the Qt api in BASIC he was simplifying it. Not only that but he was making the same api work with GTK widgets. I’m not a BASIC programmer, so I find it hard to understand the trade offs you have to make to appeal to non-geek programmers – that’s why I was impressed. Unfortunately it clashed with the java-gnome talk so I had to rush off before seeing it all. But I’m not sure if java-gnome is any more successful than the QtJava bindings that I maintain. Technical issues don’t matter against massive marketing budgets from IBM’s SWT or Sun’s Swing. 2005-03-25 6:51 pm I guess you haven’t heard of iFolder? There’s a client implementation written in Mono, but no, it isn’t an exclusively Mono application I’m afraid. Nor is any Mono implementation a part of Novell’s core server software. Rewriting software that works (Groupwise, NDS, Zen, …) just for sake of rewriting it in another language is pure stupidity and makes no business sense. If you’re truly committed to it you have to eat your own dogfood fully, but they are not even providing Mono enhancements server side. You at least provide server-side extensions for people to use if you’re serious, and I don’t see any Novell web applications written in Mono ASP.Net. “Oh, but Novell aren’t going to re-write everything….” – I don’t see any new Novell web sites, services or web applications based on Mono an ASP.Net. And since Novell also releases it’s own branded linux (NLD), you can be sure that, at least, beagle is a part of Novell’s software stack. Again, the NLD is not a core Novell Product (shock, horror!) and Beagle is not a core application. Groupwise, NDS, Zenworks, OES and SLES are. I don’t see any direct or promoted Mono integration for any of them, apart from some client integration which can be written with anything. Suse have Groupwise client access written for KDE as well as iFolder support in the NLD, so I don’t know where this Novell is building its software stack on Mono stuff continually comes from. Back to the original post, there is nothing that suggests that Novell is building its entire software stack around Mono. 2005-03-25 7:28 pm This is simmilar to the discussion I had with Angel and in the end it all comes down to what you belive mono to be. I, for one, don’t care much about ASP.Net, ADO.net, and other non ECMA parts of .NET stack. I simply view it as an effort to bring an exciting dev platfrom to linux and at the same time enables me to use those same skill on windows and osx. Damm i sound like a broken record I know there are other viable options, but I like .NET and from what I read and hear, I am not alone. I also happen to belive, that a server without a client is more or less useless. So having, only, a client written in mono does suggest that novell is at least in small cautious portions, eating its, microsoft flavored, dogfood, after all, iFolder is also an enterprise solution. In the and, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, therefor I respect yours. I just happen to disagree Have fun, sect2k 2005-03-25 9:33 pm I’ve got about 10 java apps running on Windows and Solaris machines. I develop Java on Mac OS X. If there’s some issues with “Cross Platform” Java I’d like to here about those area’s. Forewarn me. For one thing swing doesn’t work on Linux. At least not if you live outside of the US. International keyboards doesn’t work, ever since swing was released I have not been able to type “~” on my Swedish keyboard in swing applications. Other locales have problems with other characters. If I remember correctly Danes can’t write “[” and so on. Read more about it or even cast a bug vote at: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4799499 They claim the bug was entered in Jan 2003, but thats just because they closed it unfixed a couple of days earlier, I guess they did something but didn’t bother to test it as it was only about GUI stuff. Out of the ten years I have used java on Solaris and Linux I only have had a fully working keyboard for 3 years (as there was some problems with old awt as well on Solaris sparc) Java is cross platform only as long as you stay on the server side. Sun doesn’t care about the GUI. For GUI stuff try QT or perhas mono works. I have not yet enough experience of mono to have an oppinion. 2005-03-25 10:13 pm “Solaris is THE Enterprise OS.” Nobody uses Solaris on the client side because its GUI just plain is old technology. CDE is old, ugly, and far hehind every other desktop environment out there. “There is no interest in Mono from Solaris crowd” Your statement is false because there have been several people ask for Solaris support with Mono. You should read the mono-list mailing lists sometime. “Mono still is and will be nothing more than a trinket for the desktop apps, it has zero enterprise credibility” Yet another false statement from you. Novell doesn’t count as enterprise ready? A company betting its future on Linux and Mono? Microsoft bet its future on .NET. IBM bet its future on Linux and Java. Were they wrong? No, they are doing pretty good. Also, Mono is being used in a lot more corporations then you think. Insurance companies are using Mono. “Even Linux crowd hates Mono because of its association with M$ and potentail legal implication.” Some do; some don’t. Some don’t like Java and Sun. You can’t make everyone happy. As for legal implications – what make you think Sun will not sue someone? They have before. So has companies like Kodak over patents. “Go waste your time with Mono and turn yourself into an unemployable programmer while real programmers solve the real problems with Java.” I’m doing quite well, thank you, in my programming job. The only reason I think of downplaying Mono/C# and hyping how great Java is — you must be jealous of Mono/C# because Java is going nowhere on the desktop but C# is. 2005-03-25 10:44 pm do you noticed solaris has been using Gnome for a while? 2005-03-26 9:54 am I do not have examples of my own. I just remembered several articles a couple years ago highlighting some slight differences when running some java apps on different platforms. I suppose Sun fixed those slight differences by now. 2005-03-26 10:28 am I do not have examples of my own. I just remembered several articles a couple years ago highlighting some slight differences when running some java apps on different platforms. I suppose Sun fixed those slight differences by now. So perhaps you should do away with the inaccurate generalizations? Saying that Sun has problems with the Write Once, Run Anywhere paradigm is just … bollocks. It works most of the time. There are many Java apps out there that run on many platforms. Off the top of my head, JEdit, Netbeans, PoseidonUML, Aduna AutoFocus and some internal apps I use all work flawlessly on Windows, Linux and OS X using the same binary. Mono and C# on the other hand, still has a long way to go. 2005-03-26 2:15 pm It is possible to write not portable software with Java – for example when you mess around with ‘/’ and ” in paths manually, you need to take care of those for yourself, or your Java App will only run on Windows- or Unix-Systems. But the same applies to C apps ofc. You can easily write portable apps with Java, but when you make a mistake, you close that possibility. 2005-03-26 9:25 pm no one’s forcing anybody to use mono, or java, or .NET use whatever you wish; everything has its place under the sun. if someone finds C# better/easier than Java or someone finds Java lots better than .NET then it’s their choice 2005-03-27 1:23 am Hello, Today Novell builds iFolder 3 using Mono and it ships with Novell Linux Desktop (unlike David wants you to believe, Novell Linux Desktop is mhm, a Novell product, surprise!). ZenWorks 7; Announced this week is also built with Mono (sorry to break the news to you David) and on the desktop front Beagle and F-Spot, both showcased extensively during our press interviews this week are also (gasp) Novell products. You can watch the videos of Friday’s Brainshare keynote to get a taste of Novell’s commitments to Mono. Miguel. 2005-03-27 4:56 am Riddle me this: Why should an IT manager for a primarily Windows OS centric server/desktop care about Mono? Why should any business care about Mono? It reminds me of Hurd, only with more money being thrown at it. 2005-03-27 11:03 am If he is using Windows for his servers, then he basically doesn’t need to care about Mono – but the criteria that it doesn’t run or is for Windows is insufficient to call it a toy. 2005-03-27 1:05 pm Just found out interestingly there seems to be a Mono for Windows … surprising in my opionion. 2005-03-27 2:41 pm Shows how much you know….. I work for a big corp and we use mono on our Linux Servers..Why you ask, well I will tell you. Mono lets us develop on windows using C#,Delphi.net etc and since all our linux boxes are servers and don’t even have X Windows installed we can easily target windows 2003 servers runing the MS framework and Linux running Mono with the exact same code and the exact same exe. We have Mono console apps that read in raw text files and use the Postgresql .net data provider to read in 500,000 lines a day and this has been going on for close to a year with not 1 hicup. So for those that think Mono is a toy, you are way off base. 2005-03-27 5:45 pm I could just develop them on Windows with .NET. Why Mono for Windows then?