Another wrinkle in the ongoing CherryOS saga: having just announced that they were putting the CherryOS Mac emulator project “on hold” indefinitely (amid accusations that their software was inappropriately using PearPC intellectual property), now the CherryOS web site states: “Due to Overwhelming Demand Cherry Open Source Project Launches 5.1.2005.”
Due to popular demand?? What popular demand? They are probably referring to lots of letters accusing them for stealing.
That’s good news, no matter what the case may be.
Come on!! ….
Overwhelming Demand ??? , or the Pear Pc Team Demand on court??
We couldn’t steal it so we will open source it.
Uh, double edged sword? I think not. There are plenty of of users(be it on linux/OSX/Windows that steal music). Sad how you group linux users all together as theives when we only have what %4 of the desktop market. You do the math. When was the last time you heard about a linux user being sued for downloading music on kazaa. Get a grip buddy. even if every linux user was stealing music(and i mean every) that still wouldn’t compare to half the windows users that are guilty of stealing music.
And as far as DVD decoder..uh we DIDN’T have any commercial company willing to put out DVD software for linux at the time the DVD decoder was implemented. I guess you could say they forced our hand.
1. Nobody is using “unlicensed binary DVD decoders”. If you refer to libdvdcss, let me tell you that libdvdcss is OpenSource (NOT binary) and does NOT use any leaked trade secrets since it’s a clean room implementation. Furthermore, it is perfectly legal at least in France where it is at home:
http://download.videolan.org/pub/libdvdcss/
Remember: videolan is a university project, its maintainers have been well-known for years, so it is legal where it is at home. Do not mix up libdvdcss and decss, these are different. decss uses leaked trade secrets, libdvdcss does not.
2. The fact that some people are downloading unlicensed multimedia files from the web is not a justification for breaking licenses and using other people’s intellectual property. Or do you think that stealing food from the supermarket is OK just because some other people are stealing as well?
I will not debate numbers as far music and dvd use or abuse. But I take issue with the comparison of stealing music to what CherryOS is accused of. The accusation is that they stole code and used it as their own. To be fair in your comparison, you would need to say that the music or dvd thief then turned around and sold the music as theirs.
I’m not saying that either of those are right, I am but a pion , just that you are not comparing like issues.
(I am also NOT accusing CherryOS of theft, just stating what the accusition is).
I’m referring to the righteous Slashbots, who are all like “Oh no, that company is evil, stealing things like that!”, then they turn around and go download a movie or song. I don’t give a crap about numbers — I’m not disputing them. My point here is that Linux users are always going off about freedom, respect of rights, complaining about stealing GNU software, etc etc, yet they do a fair share of stealing themselves. Four out of five Linux users I’ve met have been total warezmonkeys.
As for G.W. — you don’t know WTF you’re talking about. The library you’re talking about (libdvdcss) is NOT an MPEG2 decoder. I suggest you go read their dev pages.
@Matt: So it’s okay to steal in that case? Let me clarify: It’s okay to steal when you can’t have what you want? Right, okay then. It doesn’t change things.
Q.E.D.
You’re not that bright. Stealing isn’t about your OS of choice. And comments on the Internet aren’t how to judge Linux users. Ever wonder how many WIndows user steal?
I see the Linux haters are out in full force today. It’s interesting that they could turn comments about a PowerPC emulator into a flamewar on how Linux users steal music.
In anycase, it’s good to see that CherryOS is opening up it’s code now, but I think we all knew it was going to happen sooner or later.
-J
> I’m referring to the righteous Slashbots,
> who are all like “Oh no, that company is
> evil, stealing things like that!”, then
> they turn around and go download a movie
> or song.
And where are these Slashbots? You are complaining about something that does not even exist in this thread.
> My point here is that Linux users are always
> going off about freedom, respect of rights,
> complaining about stealing GNU software, etc
> etc, yet they do a fair share of stealing
> themselves.
Who does this? Please be more precise or, alternatively, be quiet. Thanks.
> Four out of five Linux users I’ve met have
> been total warezmonkeys.
Who and where? If you know only warezmonkeys, the problem might reside on your side and is only your problem. Perhaps you should meet more people…
> As for G.W. — you don’t know WTF you’re
> talking about. The library you’re talking
> about (libdvdcss) is NOT an MPEG2 decoder.
> I suggest you go read their dev pages.
HOW EMBARRASSING! You told about DVD decoders, but ALL MPEG2 decoders used by videolan & co. are, of course, OPENSOURCE, so I had to interpret that you are talking about CSS descramblers. Dear Tom, let me tell you that ALL MPEG2 decoders used by videolan & co. are OPENSOURCE, NOT binary. You do not even know this and are telling me to go read the dev pages? Read them yourself. HOW EMBARRASSING!
There are a couple of people on here who make wild eyed comments about “linux people” and linux in general and open source.
Regarding CherryOs itself, how did it actually differentiate between PearPC itself. I remember reading about it on another thread. I guess what im wondering is how is it different from PearPC?
Thanks.
IIRC, CherryOS basically provided a GUI front end for PearPC, along with a few other things like a virtual NIC driver that PearPC could take advantage of, but even the driver was open source (can’t recall the name of it). That means that MXS has stolen open source code from multiple projects.
-J
“Stealing isn’t about your OS of choice. And comments on the Internet aren’t how to judge Linux users. Ever wonder how many WIndows user steal?”
I’m sure plenty of Windows users steal IP frequently, but then again, you don’t hear their self-righteous indignation when the GPL is violated now do you?
> I’m sure plenty of Windows users steal IP frequently, but then again,
> you don’t hear their self-righteous indignation when the GPL is violated
> now do you?
True. But the companies themselves take care of this with their army
of lawyers and their truckloads of trials.
Real “GNU Hippies” don’t use proprietary software. Most don’t use proprietary content either. They share and find music that is legally free. Of course they are going to be angry if someone tries to take GPL’d code and try to make it non-free. It is illegal to do so.
Calling “GNU Hippies” thieves is ludicrous. Calling GNU advocates”Hippies” is more than ignorant enough. Most of us believe in competitive capitalism, and are against dictatorship capitalism which forms monopolies.
People who use linux (aka the “GNU Hippies”) are the ones who are concerned about copyright. If you wont use a piece of software because its unethical, you sure as hell arnt going to infringe on that softwares copyright. On the flipside, if you dont care about copyright ethics, you are more likely to infringe with reckless abandon.
The only people who are illegally downloading copyrighted material on linux are the rash of windows users we have been seeing over the last few years, who have a notoriously poor sense of ethics.
I would have thought this would be self-evident…..
Your overgeneralization is what everyone finds offensive. I, for example, use linux and I for one have NEVER, NOT ONE TIME illegally downloaded copyrighted music or movies. I do use dvdcss, but that’s because Fair Use gives me the Constitutional right to. I bought and own the DVD’s I watch and the apps I use were created as clean room implementations. The law says that’s fair play and I’ll go toe to toe in court with anybody who wants to argue otherwise. There are plenty of law-abiding *nix users out there, like myself. So don’t go putting us all into one little “if you use linux you must be stealing” box. It just ain’t so.
Now, about CherryPC. What they’ve done is donwright illegal. They took someone else’s code, ignored the terms of use, packaged it and sold it as though they wrote it themselves. That’s blatant IP theft no matter how you cut it. THAT is what’s got the community pissed.
You can take issue with the “free beer” mentality all you like, but it was the code authors’ (in this case PearPC) right to give it away and dictate the terms of use. There are no justifications whatsoever for ignoring those terms and commiting a criminal act of copyright theft. If your going to use Free Software, you’ve gotta play by the rules of the folks writing it or go your own way.
As a long time GNU/Linux user (a.k.a., a GNU Hippie), I place a high value on freedom, just as I would expect most other GNU Hippies to do so. All the music I’ve downloaded IS legal, and libdvdcss is not an illegal binary DVD decoder. It is a clean room implementation with full source code and is legal in many countries.
The real issue that we should be discussing is CherryOS, and why they’ve chosen to open source their code. Considering all the effort they’ve put forth to market and sell CherryOS, it seems rather suspicious that they would do so only after PearPC threatens to take them to court for stealing code.
Open source projects work very transparently, making it hard for them to attempt something as subversive as stealing someone elses code. CherryOS, most likely, is the effort of a proprietary company attempting to steal someone elses work and make a quick buck, and I’m glad they were prevented from doing so.
Should have been 4.1.2005
Maybe it speaks boatloads about your ability to communicate effectively.
No.
On the hippie side, my hair is too short. I wear the wrong clothes. I don’t ingest the right mood altering substances. The one item that might apply to the hippie life style in my house is a lava lamp.
On the theft side, I use Linux but have a ton of Windows software sitting on the shelf that I really must throw away when I find the time. All of it is paid for. I have also paid for Linux software, Turpoprint, Vuescan, Opera, and Textmaker come to mind, not to mention purchases of Suse and Libranet.
I am no hippie, neither are the rather button down types who work for IBM, Redhat and Novel. The majority of hippies, of course, were honest people who believed one should treat one’s neighbor with respect and dignity, but those are hardly values unique to them.
The characters “me” and “matt,” on the other hand do not believe in treating their neighbors with dignity and respect, but prefer instead to engage in unsubstantiated allegations and lies. Their values are shared by Microsoft’s Balmer and Gates. I use Linux, not Windows, because I have chosen to support a more honest way to run my computers, that and Linux works.
I never called anyone GNU hippies, I merely clarified what Tom was trying to state originally. I don’t entirely disagree with the term but I do understand that it’s not a good idea to overgeneralize.
Let me put this another way though. I read lots of articles that decry companies who choose to violate the GPL and I read the associated comments, many of which tend to pre-judge the company accused without affording them any due process.
I also read lots of articles about the RIAA and MPAA coming down hard on those who choose to violate copyright law (and I’m not even going to consider DMCA violations here so don’t point this out as some sort of magical argument killing silver bullet). Their arguments, in the associated comments, tend to lean towrards the arguments that these things cost too much or IP should not be locked up, yada, yada, yada.
Never do I read any articles about how the RIAA and MPAA with comments that defend their right to prosecute. That seems to be reserved for the “champions of good” (aka OSS, FSF, et al) for some reason. Rights are afforded ALL, not just a select few and the sooner people start realizing this, the sooner sensible copyright reform can occur.
Don’t feed the troll please !
That was a fairly level-headed comment. The only thing I’d point out is that due process is a legal requirement for prosecution in a court of law (at least in many countries). No such requirement exists in the court of public opinion.
You have the facts from the initial allegations, along with their justifications, all the way to this aparant decision by CherryOS to open up their code. Given this, you are free to form an opinion and I’d not chastize anyone for forming one.
But thank you for the level-headedness all the same.
What about the hundreds of dollars they most likely got from airheads that actually -paid- for this thing?
So if they release it as FOSS, then what? They’ve still got the money in the bank. Sounds like a new business plan to me!
1.) Steal GPL Software
2.) ????
3.) Profit!!!
Obviously, they finally answered #2 – Repackage it, claim it as your own, and hock it off cheaply to morons!
I think your missing the point. The problem was that they aparanly stole code from another project and released it without obeying the terms of use on that code. That’s the infringement. The fact that they took GPL code tried to make money on it is not. If we find, after they release their code, that they did indeed steal the code, then they may (assuming their rights aren’t revoked under the GPL) continue selling their product.
I’m sure plenty of Windows users steal IP frequently, but then again, you don’t hear their self-righteous indignation when the GPL is violated now do you?
No, but you do hear their self-righteous indignation about “open source puts developers out of business”, and drivel like that…
The pear PC people made a extremely convincing case so they but be obfuscating as hell over in hawai….
Seriously, who cares? All the GNU hippies of the world have been going ape-shit over this CherryOS drama, yet the righteous Linux user doesn’t think twice when he/she steals music and movies, as well as using unlicensed binary DVD decoders.
What a double-edged sword it is.
I care.
All the MS hippies I know would just steal CherryOS, along with their copies of Photoshop, Office, XP, music and movies from Shareaza.
Although I think that’s wrong I don’t complain when they offer me a copy of their music. But I would never pay them for it.
The company behind CherryOS stole this code and is actively trying to get people to pay them for it. That’s not just illegal. Its wrong.
.!..
Seriously, who cares? All the GNU hippies of the world have been going ape-shit over this CherryOS drama, yet the righteous Linux user doesn’t think twice when he/she steals music and movies, as well as using unlicensed binary DVD decoders.
What a double-edged sword it is.
>
>
Actually it’s a *THREE* edged sword…..
Stealing code, passing it off as your own and selling it is not equivalent to downloading copyrighted songs for your own private use. They are not the same thing and have only been brought up as a red herring to distract from the real issue, but what else can be expected on this public forum.
Wherever he pops up in one of these forums, the Troll tries to start a flamewar by making ludicrous comments about Linux users. Nevermind that one of the most serious areas of IP violation, software piracy, is almost completely the domain of Windows users. In fact, pirated Linux software is practically unheard of.
As far as using unlicensed DVD decoders, I can hardly consider this theft if you actually own the DVDs. I have a collection of about 120 DVDs (movies and series), all legally purchased – I even have the receipts to prove it. As a paying customer, I’ll watch these DVDs on whatever device I damn well please, and I invite the MPAA to try to find arguments to stop me…
(Never mind that piracy, though a criminal act that does cause loss of revenue, is not theft by any legal definition…)
So just ignore the troll, and eventually he’ll go away.
>>Seriously, who cares? All the GNU hippies of the world have been going ape-shit over this CherryOS drama, yet the righteous Linux user doesn’t think twice when he/she steals music and movies, as well as using unlicensed binary DVD decoders.
Nice generalization there Tom. So Linux users are the ones that steal music and movies yea, ok. Nevermind Turbolinux and Linspire’s licenced codecs I guess. Do you stereo-type everything else with such a broad brush too? Why am I wasteing my time? You should be perma-banned for such a remark.
>>I’m referring to the righteous Slashbots, who are all like “Oh no, that company is evil, stealing things like that!”
Then that’s what you should have said butthead. But no – you didn’t, you stereotyped in the same manner that Gates and company try to do to discourage Linux use. And now you’ve been caught with your pants down and rather than take your ass whipping like a man you’re pulling a Clinton on us.
>>So far, only 2-3 people have understood my original point. I think that speaks boatloads about this forum. That is all.
It speaks volumes about how you switch gears when your pants are down instead of owning up to your sin is what it does.
Actually Windows users are by far the worst ones for stealing software which ONLY MAKES SENSE since most Windows software is proprietary. Then we have Open Source OSs’ that come out of the box with an equivalent app for almost every proprietary app so the only thing I can think of that Linux users are going to steal
So Tom, pull your head out and stop taking Slashdot so seriously. It’s just an online forum with lots of people talking trash. You don’t hear any serious Linux kernel hackers or BSD guys saying it’s alright to steal. And the GNU hippy remark was just talking shit on your part. You can’t placea label on Open Source software users like that considering the world uses it.
My, you Linux trolls are out in full force today…. see it works both ways.
You all are either to stupid to actually read a post and get what was meant from it, or to blinded.
What Toms was saying was that there are certainly music downloaders that use Linux (aka, open source advocates) who are condeming CherryOS for the exact same thing that they themselves are guilty of.
Don’t turn this into some stupid little petty fight acting like he said that all Linux users steal.
You’re not noticing the point that he bases his statement on what he sees on Slashdot. Also, I’m an OpenBSD troll.
” And as far as DVD decoder..uh we DIDN’T have any commercial company willing to put out DVD software for linux at the time the DVD decoder was implemented. I guess you could say they forced our hand. ”
Great justification for performing an illegal act.
” People who use linux (aka the “GNU Hippies”) are the ones who are concerned about copyright. If you wont use a piece of software because its unethical, you sure as hell arnt going to infringe on that softwares copyright. On the flipside, if you dont care about copyright ethics, you are more likely to infringe with reckless abandon.
The only people who are illegally downloading copyrighted material on linux are the rash of windows users we have been seeing over the last few years, who have a notoriously poor sense of ethics.
I would have thought this would be self-evident….. ”
Oh right, yeah uh-huh. Go on Limewire, go to any peer2Peer most of the Windows XP/2003 Server ISO’s ie. Pirated Corporate editions are hosted on Linux machines ergo, Linux users who dont care about copyright ethics, who infinge with reckless abandon. yep some of you Linux guys are really “concerned” about copyright alright. On the flipside you cant really trace piracy and theft to any group, Windows users, Mac users, Linux all have users who are guilty of copyright infringement, piracy or theft. When a Mac user installs Mac OS X from the same disks on multiple computers are violating their license and when they give their friends the latest builds of tiger or panther are guilty. When you dont buy the software yet let it funnel down through torrents and P2P’s you commit piracy, just because you are a Linux user and you are distributing Proprietary software that you may or may not use, its against the law. You are not “sharing your license”, which I must say is the best excuse I have heard, you are commiting a crime no matter how you paint it, dress it up and make it dance and sing, you are guilty.
I would never use it, i would never do business with that company at all. It seems to me they are very shady. I dont trust shady companies or shady projects, thats how come there are several companies, ie Novell and Linspire both of which I will never do business with, ever, and some OSS projects I wont deal with. I like as little complication in my life as possible.
Great justification for performing an illegal act.
DVD decoders are not illegal in all countries. Personally, I find no moral wrong in using an open-source program for reading DVDs which I have bough with my hard-earned cash.
Furthermore, the legal status of DVD decoders/rippers is unclear. By disallowing people to make backup copies of their DVDs, the MPAA may very well be hampering the constitutionally-guaranteed “fair use” rights of consumers, which allows the creation of backup copies.
Go on Limewire, go to any peer2Peer most of the Windows XP/2003 Server ISO’s ie. Pirated Corporate editions are hosted on Linux machines ergo, Linux users who dont care about copyright ethics
I’m curious: how do you find out what OS those Limewire nodes are running under?
“the MPAA may very well be hampering the constitutionally-guaranteed “fair use” rights of consumers”
while there ARE certian laws pertaining to fair use and consumer rights, they are most deffinately not protected in the constitution, much less guaranteed
get your facts straight
so yes. a good portion of linux users fall into that.
then again, a good portion of people in the US fall into that category too.
it makes it difficult to say something is wrong when 1/3 of the population engages in it (and there is no direct harm to anyone)
> unlicensed binary DVD decoders
>
And… who cares ?
Come on to all of you stop fighting. Neither of us are Saints, we all have our flaws!
We people steal music, their not doing it to make profit. Cherry OS did! Besides, stelling music is not at all unethical in my oppinion: We pay 30$ or 23 euro’s for one lousy CD in our country (Netherlands). That is just to much. And where does the money do: well, most of if does _NOT_ go to the artists that do all the creative work. That what I call unethical and stealing. Don’t see a reason to support that crap. I say: make the CD’s cheaper, and give the performers some more credit, they deserve it.
Also to Tom: are you also going to tell the MS users to stop complaining if they car gets stolen, since thet also use stolen software… You are just beeing very hypocrite (still, not unlike some of the OSS friends here)!
Well well another one bites the dust, great this i got to see.
“” And as far as DVD decoder..uh we DIDN’T have any commercial company willing to put out DVD software for linux at the time the DVD decoder was implemented. I guess you could say they forced our hand. ”
Great justification for performing an illegal act.”
Dear Mr. Troll Please get your facts right… In Denmark its not illigal to break the copyright protection and watch encrypted DVDs on a Linux machine.
…if this discussion is to get on track, as with all discussions of this type, people need to settle on whether the discussion is about what is ‘criminally’ or just ‘morally wrong’.
The two are completely different and people are arguing with the goalposts at each end in completely different places.
>> And as far as DVD decoder..uh we DIDN’T have any commercial
>> company willing to put out DVD software for linux at the time the
>> DVD decoder was implemented.
> Great justification for performing an illegal act.
And doing the math to see a DVD is illegal? Does it make sense that I could decode the DVD doing the math in my head or using a pocket calculator, and that would be illegal? Remember: The material has been paid for!
I think it is ok that an implementation is copyrighted. But there is no copyright for the right to decode a DVD or copyright for the idea of doing calculations that decode a DVD movie. Laws banning thoughts and ideas (math, instructions, logic) are senseless and should be taken out and shot.
Even if it was illegal to decode a DVD when the material has been paid for, that would be so 1984’ish and twisted that I really wonder where you guys live.
Disclaimer:
Please don’t get me wrong… I love almost all GNU stuffs (especially the GNU buildtools, glibc, emacs (best damned software Free or Non-free–I’m a recent convert from the vim persuation), bash, GPL, philosophy).
However, I just hate the hyprocracy of “downloading MPAA controlled music is COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT” while mistakenly reused GPLed code to be “theft”.
The alleged license violation by Cherry OS is “copyright infringement” is not theft. Heck, the GPL itself is based on copyright law…
I don’t condone CherryOS’s alleged infringement… but the hypocrary is killing me…
Please… all you “Cherry OS is theft” people who are GNU/Linux (or just Linux if you please… I’m not pedantic about trivial (although RMS will probably have a few words if I was to have the honor to meet with him) terminology) zealots (myself included to a certain extent), quit griping about not getting software free of charge… instead help the GNU principle, or the BSD/Artistic/(insert your favorite Free license) for the common good.
It saddens me that the Linux hype has brought many freeloaders who demand free(zero cost) for everything instead of Free(per GNU definition).
Major P.S.
I am not a contributor in any way shape or form. I am just merely a Free Software (and proprietary software) use who is gratuitious for the contributions knowledgable hackers (unlike me) working hard for a common good.
please excuse me for my pathetic English, for I am not a native English speaker.
sjk
while there ARE certian laws pertaining to fair use and consumer rights, they are most deffinately not protected in the constitution, much less guaranteed
You are right in the sense that it is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. I should have used a different expression – hey, it was late and I didn’t re-read my comment before I posted it.
However, Fair Use rights were affirmed by the Supreme Court in the landmark Betamax case. And the head of a large recorded industry group recently confirmed that Fair Use allowed consumers to make a backup copy of a music CD (which basically means they won’t be able to argue the contrary in the future, at least not in a court of law).
You are correct, the CherryOS is clearly one of copyright infringement, not theft.
“I think it is ok that an implementation is copyrighted. But there is no copyright for the right to decode a DVD or copyright for the idea of doing calculations that decode a DVD movie.”
Absolutely. How in the hell can someone own a legal DVD and a legal DVD Rom and still not be able to watch the god damn thing?
What Tom said was not that it was the same thing, he said people who whine about software theft and sale of said software do something completely different.
You can steal software.
Then you can steal software and try to make money off of it.
CherryOS stole GPL code, we know because while hexing the software the same keywords from the randomely named data bits came up (it’s like two people who never saw each others code randomely naming 215 variables the same thing, with names like “bunnies_are_cool_yo”. It just doesn’t happen.)
That theft is, yes, the same thing as somebody downloading music.
But they tried to sell it.
That means it is not the same thing. Legally it is not the same thing, and morally it is not the same thing.
Also, I would like to question what the hell the “the windows 2003 isos are on linux machines” is about? Why the hell would a linux user even have a windows 2003 iso if they weren’t windows users just using a small old box to keep from inconveniencing themselves?
Those aren’t linux users, those are, as someone else stated, windows users who came in for the convenience…
Will someone please page Dr. S. I. Hayakawa? Or, if he is busy, any student who recieved a B+ or better in Logic 101? I’m looking for someone able to discuss the falacy of circular reasoning…