The first big news today from the WWDC 2002 is that Apple now officially stops the MacOS 9 development and goes full speed with OSX. Steve Jobs calls the next step “X only. It’s time to drop OS 9,” he said. “We can do things in X that we just can’t do in 9… a hundred percent of what we’re doing is X only.” He cited Microsoft as an example of companies that are going X only. Apple expects to see 5 million MacOSX users by the end of the year. “These are the guys buying the application software,” he said. “MacOS 9 isn’t dead for our customers, but it is for you [the developers]. Today we say goodbye to MacOS 9 for all future development,” said Jobs. Stay tuned for more news from WWDC. Update: “Quartz Extreme” will probably force most of the Mac users to upgrade. Read on. Update 2: Read on.“Quartz Extreme” is a new technology that takes the compositing engine in Quartz, and accelerates it in graphics cards. Combines 2D, 3D and video in one hardware pipeline via OpenGL. “Everything on the screen is being drawn in hardware by OpenGL.” Requires AGP 2x and 32MB of video RAM. It is not possible on older graphics cards like RAGE 128 cards, said Jobs — that means it’ll work on newer iMacs and eMacs, but not on older machines, Jobs emphasized. AGP 2x and 32MB video RAM are required for this new technology. Jobs said this puts Apple two years ahead of “the other guys.”
Among other things introduced, is InkWell: A Handwriting recognition technology. Recognized by any application that uses text, even basic UNIX applications like Terminal. Jaguar (codename for OSX 10.2 that comes at the end of the Summer) also features database technology which can be used for any app, system wide. Tied into Bluetooth. LDAP searching built in too.
“A week from tomorrow there’ll be some news on the server front.” On May 14th Apple is introducing a dedicated server, rack mount model, Jobs said.
The server version of Jaguar will support Net Install and Net Boot. Every single server can install off of that. Built in Open Directory (LDAP). Server-optimized Java Virtual Machine.
Our Take: I received the Cube 2 weeks ago, and now it seems that I will have to find the special edition GeForce2MX 32 MB (which fits in the Cube) if I want to run OSX 10.2. The funny part is that Apple still sells iBooks with only 8 MB of VRAM and of course, the classic best-sellers iMacs, with 16 MB of ATi Rage Pro 128 (same as a standard Cube). Also, many stores still sell the older Powerbooks with 16 MB of VRAM. Lots and lots of people are going to feel “locked out” because of this advancement in the graphics layer of OSX.
Anyone knows if the requirements for Quartz Extreme are mandatory or if they are not met, the rendering can fallback to software or traditional 2D rendering? If these requirements are mandatory, I don’t see too many happy Mac users… Update: It seems that OSX 10.2 will run on older hardware, but it will not make any use of the OpenGL for the 2D actions. Users with any 32 MB graphics board will just get extra speed boost on transparencies, shadows and other eye candy found on the OSX GUI. The rest of the users, will just render these components in software, as they are render them today in MacOSX 10.1x (slower that is).
There goes the best UI. Aqua sucks, gimme Platinum! Eye candy makes you sick and is bad for your teeth!
Imagine what the uproar would sound like if Microsoft said “XP only. It’s time to drop NT and Win95/98/2000. A hundred percent of what we’re doing is XP only.”
How I wish Microsoft would do that! Not having to support the 9x/ME line any more would make a developer’s life so much easier!
Yes, except OS X has a vastly superior core architecture compared to OS 9. XP isn’t much different than 2000. And as for Win95/98 — support SHOULD be dropped. Those OSes are utter garbage.
As for the anti-Aqua bozo, no comment.
having superior core architecture is irrelevant if the UI is unusable tho…
BTW, how’s that Subway diet working out?
Actually, MS is doing this. They’ve already officially dumped Win95, and tried to do the same with NT 4.0. There was a huge backlash from their larger customers about the NT 4.0 thing, so the are continuing to support it (but only until 2003, if I recall.)
Besides, they practically do this anyway. They never bothered releasing USB drivers for NT4.0, and they never provided Driect X past 3.0. Good luck getting NT 4.0 to run well on newer “legacy free” systems. Fine as long as you don’t need to plug it into devices newer than 2000.
Also, they ditched plans for a final SP for NT 4.0, citing “customer requests.” Right. “Oh please, stop patching and supporting the OS that our company runs on.”
I know that the last company I co-oped for (Jan to Sept 2001) started upgrading their servers to Win2K because MS was pulling support for NT 4.0.
But hey, good luck finding a Debian developer who will help you with Hamm or Slink. Think RH will still support 5.2? Such is life. I don’t own a Mac, but I would if I could afford one. They’ve got MS Office, Photoshop, and lots of other key apps now, I think it is time for Apple to put themselves behind OSX 100%.
Good to see you on the front page E
>Good to see you on the front page E
Thanks. It is not the first time. I have submitted successfully more than 22 stories on Slashdot. (The Slashdot “Hall of Fame” says they are 19, but their counter stopped working 2 months ago or so :o)
How the heck to you get your stories submitted there so much? do you subim a lot and get a lot of rejection?
what the heck is your Karma? 44 if you have not bothered to post on there. I got 50 :-D…..
seriously though, does Taco like you or somthing?
It’s on my iMac, I just don’t touch it. I’m sure everyone has heard Steve Jobs say OSX 10.2 will be much faster in terms of the UI. So it won’t matter what type of UI you end up using, the important thing is: OSX is better for both users and developers. One thing lacking in OSX compared to OS 9 is, OSX is still lacking software even though it’s been out for over a year. By going 100% OSX, Apple is sending out a message to everyone that it is time to move on. Once the consumers accept this and migrate to OSX, developers can focus on OSX only and not worry about whether or not there’s enough people using OSX.
Personally, I found the UI in OS9 more difficult to navigate (I blame my 5 years of using Windows).
> How the heck to you get your stories submitted there so much?
I know how to “serve” them to a fellow news web site. It is my “job” to know. I write it in a way that a news web site would feel nice to have it in their frontpage.
> do you subim a lot and get a lot of rejection?
I only submit news for things that the Slashdotters would be interesting in.
> what the heck is your Karma?
50. Everytime I post as Eugenia, I automatically get a +2.
> seriously though, does Taco like you or somthing?
That would probably be Hemos.
Anyone knows if the requirements for Quartz Extreme are mandatory or if they are not met, the rendering can fallback to software or traditional 2D rendering? If these requirements are mandatory, I don’t see too many happy Mac users..
AGP 2x/32MB is mandatory for hardware acceleration, *not* for Jaguar.
Sometimes you have to leave hardware behind, that’s just the way the industry goes. This is bad indeed for recent iBool/TiBook purchases, but I have a feeling Quartz will be faster without hw accel too.
Think about it, why would they spend probably millions upon millions of dollars developing a completely new technology, dotNet, which makes an Operating System irrelevant, if they were <em>not</em> planning on dropping the whole Win32 mess? Its going to take a few years to get developers working with the new dotNet dev tools, but you can bet your tax refund that they’re moving that way!
>never provided Driect X past 3.0
NT 4.0 is microkernel so the video drivers have to go through the HAL and that slows it down, that’s why there is no point in making DirectX for a slow graphics OS.
Newer NTs are less of a microkernel and that’s why they have the DirectX support
this is basically what rasterman is attempting with E17, all openGL accelerated, relying on X for input and window visibility only.
and E17 works fine on my P II 233 with 16Mb TNT at 1024×768… i think jobs is overspecifying so he can cram in some more eye-candy!
and i just ordered my iBook, too… i knew i should have gone for the TiBook…
This is not only what is upcoming with E17 (or evas, to be more precise) but also what PicassoGL was supposed to be.
..but Apple apparently have it already done?? I guess it makes sense to move gfx matters away from the CPU but shame about the limited usefulness on older hardware.
Soo.. when can we see a fully accelerated single gfx layer for Linux? if OpenGL is actually Open will any of the work Apple are doing on this be reusable on other platforms?
Some Mac folks feel that the laptops might not be affected by this new techno. Here is a quote from a guy on MacCentral:
“Everybody loves to jump to conclusions.
I’m guessing that’s the minimum supported video *card*.
Laptops have a fixed resolution, and a smaller maximum resolution than the desktops – therefore they’ll have lower requirements than the desktop. I’m guessing they will be supported on laptops unless two separate displays are connected. Plese stop worrying and complaining until we get all the details. Then you can complain. ”
I am not sure how true his claims will be, but it seems to make sense… hopefully he’ll be right on the money, or Steve Jobs will have some very angry Mac customers to deal with!
yeah, sorry, technically it is Evas, rather than E17 that is the drawing/accelerated bit.
Evas can render in software, though. it takes a performance hit and scales back its quality accordingly. i dont think that apple cant do this as well.
are we approaching the era when the cpu isnt cooled (G3), but the gpu is (GeForce anything)?
> and i just ordered my iBook, too… i knew i should have gone for the TiBook…
Argh, same here. Be interesting to see where this goes as I don’t want to think that my iBook is doomed to obselecence in a few months.
I wish Microsoft could include spring loaded folders in Windows. OK, if I said “BS 10 only- it’s time to drop version 9.x,A hundred percent what I’m doing is for version 10 only”.
Now Apple drops OS 9-have they drop versions 8 and ealier?
I’m suprised at the lack of comments on the statement that Apple is going to release a rack-mount server. A nice little 1U jobber?
Funny thing. I went to download a firmware update for my iMac DV. Double clicked the installer, and was informed that since “Classic” was not on my machine (I use OS X only) that it couldn’t launch.
You have a big ass userbase of iMac G3 users with 4-8MB video cards (ATI Rage 128). I have funny feeling that WHOEVER figures out how to upgrade the ATI RAGE video in the g3 iMac DVs, is going to sell a LOT of upgrades. A fine thing that ATI and nVidea both LICENSE their GPU’s – its open to anybody.
>>”Quartz Extreme” will probably force most of the Mac users to upgrade. Read on.<<
I am glad that I waited to buy my next Mac, you never know when Apple will pull these tricks he he 🙂
>NT 4.0 is microkernel so the video drivers have to go >through the HAL and that slows it down, that’s why there >is no point in making DirectX for a slow graphics OS.
Umm, no. NT 3.X did abstract the video drivers through the HAL, and was more stable for it–but much slower. Starting with NT4, the video drivers live in the kernel. That way they get direct access to memory and other goodies, speeding up graphics performance by a large amount.
On the flip side, placing the display system in the kernel vastly increased the size of the kernel and the amount of code that has full run of the machine. The display system is one of the largest sources of bugs that can cause a BSOD.
>>You have a big ass userbase of iMac G3 users with 4-8MB video cards (ATI Rage 128). I have funny feeling that WHOEVER figures out how to upgrade the ATI RAGE video in the g3 iMac DVs, is going to sell a LOT of upgrades. A fine thing that ATI and nVidea both LICENSE their GPU’s – its open to anybody.<<
Make a video accelerator that plugs into the firewire port. THAT would rock. Is that possible?
>>Make a video accelerator that plugs into the firewire port. THAT would rock. Is that possible?<<
You could probably make some money on that idea!
According to Apple, for Quartz extreme, you need:
nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance.
So, really all you need is a graphics chip that does hardware T&L. Having 32 mb of VRAM is nice, but not necessary. So those with 16 MB Radeons will be just fine. (Does this include Eugenia’s cube?)
As a side note, the 2D graphics in WinXP are accelerated the same way. It probably just means more on a platform that has such crazy effects as OS X.
Apple’s official site doesn’t say that the hardware acceleration only works if you have 32M VRAM, it says that performance is “optimal” if you have 32M VRAM. I don’t know exactly what that means–but I don’t think anyone else outside of Apple does, either.
Personally, I’ll be annoyed if there isn’t some noticeable speed improvement on my PowerBook 550, but, well, not much to be done for it. As someone observed on Slashdot this is kind of a drawback to laptops–you can’t upgrade them. And this isn’t a Mac-only thing.
Yeah I have the powerBook 667, so I hope that we’ll be able to take advantage of the ‘Extreme Quartz’… but I really can’t complain about OS X on the Ti-Book G4, how is it for you on your PowerBook?
I think the great news is the rack machine, which was a specific complaint of the scientific community a couple months ago–they couldn’t get enough density to set up a big cluster. And is now being remedied.
which means someone at Apple is listening–something that seems to be happening a lot over there recently.
Hopefully these lovelies are DDR based, have IEE1394b, AGP8X and ATA133, because that would be schmood. (ah! a toast to dreaming)
I’ve wanted an Apple labeled rack machine for a while as it would be a nice fit in between the Beta Deck, the Disk Array, and all of the other rack based equipment in a post suite.
Combined with a DrBott monitor signal amplifier and long USB/firewire cables, the computer can further move to the control room to reduce fan noise and clutter in the edit suite.
To “Top (JOB=DumbAss)”
I don’t think any amount of wrangling will get you a GL card in your iMac that would work with Quartz Extreme as QE requires an AGP bus to work.
It wont work either with G3’s and other machines that have PCI based video, including the Powerbook G3, iBooks, etc.
I have a PCI Radeon card with OpenGL support, but it means nothing, because it wont be seen by QE on the PCI bus.
Also; All older iMacs where sold as Os9 Machines so updates run from Classic or straight 9, as most people have at least Classic on their machines.
Hopefully the issues with MPEG 4 licensing have been dealt with because the last time I check, it was a lemon.
Quicktime is the mainstay of the content creation community, and it’s inclusion of what will become the first trully open standard for media delivery is a very
important advancement for QT, but also for the creators, as this will hopefully will reduce the amount of conversion necessary to go from Camera to TVset.
In one of the other Apple comment areas on this site, someone is talking about Power4 CPU’s being a possible replacement for the G4.
Well actually it’s not.
A Power4 is equivalent to an Alpha, an IA64, or a PA-RISC processors.
These are weighted differently than PC processors and have completely different prioritties.
They are aimed at FP processing as opposed to Integer processing, they need to be supercooled, they are designed to handle massive amounts of memory, and huge storage subsystems, they just would suck on the desktop, where FP performance is important, but not crucial, but where Integer performance is a must (or the GUI feels like jello and Office will run like molasses).
I think a more sensible possibility is for Apple to let go of some of it’s dependence on Altivec, to put pressure on Motorolla , or for a wholesale move to IBM’s stable or it’s own PPC designs which you have to remember they have the ability to do as the 3 member of PPC. (They also are talking to AMD, which is most likely about FAB usage and not K7 or K8 licensing).
You also have to remember IBM has a whole lot of different PPC based processor, and Power is just the Tippy top; there are other monsters in the stable that would do very well under the Mac Hood.
Wasn’t the inclusion of OGL/DirectX interface accelaration going to be part of some future version of windows? Blackcomb, Longhorn?
I had read about this somewhere but for some reason I can’t find any references to this anywhere.
Probably more “MS SPECTOR” mind control games from the only company in the world that could actually OWN most of the countries in the southern hemisphere combined.
These anouncements are a strange co-inkydink, because I just read an article on the Linux Journal of December 2001 about 3D interfaced file systems on Linux, (3Dfile, FSV, Xcruise) and had been day dreaming about what would be needed to make something like those FSM’s for OsX, which now seems much more feasible, as less work would have to be put in to integrate OGL.
Actually all of this is just so F….. PHAT!
I mean The BSD upgrade, (Go Jordan Hubbard, Rob Braun, and Jason Evans) and the System wide Address book, which as you may recal was a feature of BeOS.
Does this points to new directions now that Dominic Giampaolo, who developed BFS, has now joined the Apple FS team?
Hopefully this means more Be-ness in OSX woooohooo!
–Please please please Dominic make them see the way of a Journaling FS, and .
The only downer in all of this is the iChat AIM Client which suxs because AOL SUXS SO HARD. And no one should validate them. (market pressures. hugh!)
And the new webservices aspect to Sherlock, RULEOLA.
Take that DOTNET, here is what an open standard compliant client should look like; especially compared to a SICK “SPECTOR/miniME” strategy to rule the world.
Oh RendezVous, when shall we meet?
Where have you been all of this time?
IPv6 what’s that?
Is it some future thing?
An old school finder with new kid tricks!
Now that’s what I’m talking about.
IPsec/SMB/ PPTP VPN; you mean I can ask my IT manager to get me a PBG4 and I’ll integrate it into his Windows network.
Is it just me or is Apple on a Roll?
All we now need is New “SuperComputing” Workstations, which are judged in relation to 21st century Supercomputing as opposed to 1980’s standards. (And kick some SGI bootee)
Now I will sleep and have very good Macatista dreams.
“. . . your iMac that would work with Quartz Extreme as QE requires an AGP bus to work. ”
The early iMac DVs come with Rage128 VR which is 2x AGP.
And the ones they sell now also have a Rage Pro 128. These cards are AGP 2x (which is required – AGP 1x or PCI won’t work because they do less than 533 MB/sec) but they only have 16 MB of RAM (32+ is required). And in fact, Jobs made it VERY clear today that the Rage cards won’t be supported for the Quartz Extreme thingie.
>>Is it just me or is Apple on a Roll?<<
I think Apple is on a roll!
Waho jaguar has email filters and connection to AOL..
Any what has this at all to do with the OS?
Zip but ya have to fill it out dont ya.
Hey, Eugenia, I kinda slammed you recently for writing up a rather negative report regarding G4 benchmarks. I just wanted to say now, on the flip side, I’m really excited for you regarding your new Cube (I hope you got a good deal on it), and I hope it works out well for you. 10.2 should run very nicely on that system (actualy, 10.1.4 already does, although some tasks may be a bit slow). As Apple has shown today, OS X’s true significance isn’t so much what it can do right now, but what it will be capable of doing in the near future. Up until now, Apple was concentrating on getting the system to work. NOW they can really go out there and innovate. You’ll soon see people doing all kinds of things on OS X that aren’t possible on any other platform. It’s very exciting.
x86-win32 users been stuck with FAT32 for ages cos NTFS support couldnt be compiled into the 9X kernel.
Now 9X is history we can have Journalled NTFS
Anyone reckon Jaguar will ship without a Classic component – and with a new, fully journalled FS ?
>>Anyone reckon Jaguar will ship without a Classic component – and with a new, fully journalled FS ?<<
I’m not sure about the fully journalled FS, though it is probably in the pipeline maybe… as for ‘Classic’ I saw some of the keynote from CNet on what Steve Jobs said about OS 9, he didn’t say what will happen with Classic, but said OS 9 from a developers point of view is dead, but consumers will be supported until everyone is switched to OS X, well not the support some would hope for, but you get the point. I figure Classic will be no more (but I have been known to be wrong before).
I’m just glad our order for a TiBook 550 got upgraded to a new 667!
I’m switching from Windows, after 10 years I’m just sick of it.
but i can’t help thinking they are stupid for using to different looks in their ui. I am talking about the Aqua look, and the brushed metal look. Why can’t they just decide on a single UI and stik with it troughout X ? Consistency is a very important factor and having two design does’ent help much.
But it’s also the small things, if you look at http://www.apple.com/macosx/newversion/ you will see that mail has “rounded” edges for it’s message selection. But this these rounded edges are not present in any of the other list selections.
p.s don’t get me wrong, i absolutely LOOOOVE Apple and X, which is why i am hurt by the fact that they are so close to perfect, but yet makes “mistakes” like these.
That was cool of Apple!
I was keenly awaiting 10.2 for speed improvements on my barely 2 year old iBook, but the wait is now a waste of time.
The news that a brand new machine purchased TODAY will not have it’s video hardware fully supported by 10.2 gives me cause to question persisting with using X any further.
I am now in a position of retreating to a PPC Linux or switching to (vastly cheaper) wintel..
I am REALLY fed up with having perfectly good hardware rendered obsolete at the stroke of a pen & I think so are many others!
[i]I’m switching from Windows, after 10 years I’m just sick of it. [/i[
I know how you feel… I plan to switch in a year or so, and just have a windows box for some game which wont run on the mac.
Classic isn’t going to go away in the next OS X release, you can be sure–there are still programs in common use that haven’t been upgraded, and not everyone is going to have the ability to rush out and upgrade their software library as OS X ports become available anyway. I’d expect that it might become an optional install, and within a year Macs won’t be shipped in the “dual boot” mode they’re in now–if you need OS 9 compatibility at that point you’ll have to install it from a CD.
CattBeMac, I should have said ‘PowerBook G4 550’ in describing my machine–it’s a TiBook that I bought earlier this year. I expect to see some speed improvements from the Jaguar release, including some level of hardware acceleration, but we’ll see. The machine really isn’t a slouch in OS X as it is.
cause I want a new Mac with Jaguare on it!!!!
oh wait!!! I will have my car paid off soon, I will be able to afford the monthlies on a new computer!!!
but what excuse do I have? I have a new laptop, I have my brother’s old G4 tower (will the Purple and slate color run jaguare?), I have a Debian server in my basment, and I have decided that I can not live on a desktop machine, I need my laptop as I like to sit infront of my TV while I play around 🙂
BTW, I am sure that Jobs will include the normal Quarts for older machines…I mean I think it would be suicide to alientate all your new customers who have bought computers from you over the last year and a half since the launch of OS X.
Do you realy think that apple is stupid?
they are not going to give up on hardware that is only a few years old.
I am sure that they will have the installer detct what mac you are running, and if it is not a new mac, you will get the old Quartz and still get to run all the nice little apps just without the GPU drawing the GUI.
Chiil out…..remember, Apple is talking about col new features, they are not talking about the boring legacy support.
if you are concerned drop an E-mail to a customer support rep and ask him/her if 10.2 will have support for older machines like the iBooks and stuff…..
besides…it has olny been 6 months since the last iBook upgrade, and last I checked they were still a G3 with a PCI only bus, you think Jobs is going to pis off his early addopters?
This all looks like a big bunch of hype to me.
“Oh, we want to do transparency/blending/shading and a few distortions and other geometric effects, and we have a chip that can do it in hardware. The revolutionary idea is to use the chip to do those effects”. Well Gee, I’m impressed.
OK, maybe I’m oversimplifying. Or not.
Apple is a fairly small company. They are a hardware company. They make money by selling hardware. Sure, they have smart engineers who wouldn’t have a hard time making the latest and greatest features work on lower-end machines, but it’s not a good business model. They’d spend more money improving the software, and they couldn’t get away with charging more for it (actually, they could, they’re Apple). But it’s much easier to turn on a reality distortion field and to pretend that the “supercomputers” of 2 years ago can’t really run the latest desktop OS, and that people muct upgrade their hardware – and now here’s something that’ll really show on Apple’s bottom line.
They even probably implemented the feature already. And they most probably *needed* to do it anyway, because 32MB isn’t enough RAM to do full dynamic compositing at the resolutions that the cinema display is running at.
This of it this way. 1920x1200x60Hz is exactly 4 times as much as 800x600x72Hz. In terms of pure memory size of bandwidth, anything that can be done with 32MB and AGP2x on a cinema display can be done with 8MB and a simple PCI bus at 800x600x72Hz. And don’t go and tell me that a G3 at 500MHz doesn’t have enough horsepower to compute a few transforms in semi-real-time. With only a few hoops to jump through, you could probably do them with an 8MHz 68000.
Something that would *really* impress me would be Apple realizing “Hey dude, we don’t really need all the capabilities of a 3D accelerator, what we need is something that can do a few specific effects at a blazingly fast speed. And those effects are easy to split into 2D transform”. I’d be impressed if Apple worked with a graphics chip manufacturer to develop something that would really kick some ass. I would be totally blasted if they designed something with e.g. a 128-bit or 256-bit rambus-like interface, split into 32-bit independent busses, with a tiled memory layout, built around a massively parallel scale/filter/blend unit. Now *that* would kick some very serious ass.
do you not realise that the shadows and the bouncy effects as well as the buttons and minimizing effects are all 3d effects?
that is what takes most of the CPU time to render.
off loading that is not realy that revolutionary, but it is a good step in the direction of evolution.
the 2d effects already run fine, so I see no reason to do what you suggest.
and a “bad business modle” is just foolishness on your part.
Apple has a few billion in liquid assets, they are the one of the 2 profitable home computer manufacturers so realy, I do not see what is bad here.
Jaguar is going to kick butt, and all the legacy owners need to chill out and understand that Quartz will work without the hardware acceleration so you can use it with out a supported card.
I forgot about this, but it looks like Apple is going to do some much needed twaeking before Jaguar gets released. So maybe some of the complaints will get fixed with this update (or maybe not)!
Maybe you should apply for a job at Apple, sounds like some awesome stuff Steve Wozniak would think up, and Apple could use another Wozniak type of wizardry to take Apple to the ‘NeXT’ level!