Review of Tiger from an end user’s perspective: likes and dislikes discussed.
Kaiwai’s Review of Tiger
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
“MacOS X shows how commercial and open-source software can be married together and provide a top notch solution to developers and end users alike.”
The KHTML devs would probably disagree…
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1001
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1002
The KHTML developers would be complaining even if Apple bought in the code on a silver platter and uploaded directly to the CVS themselves. The underlying fact is; they’ve used code, they’ve provided the changes they made back to the KHTML project – there is nothing stopping the KDE project or any project, from adding a clause to their project licence in reference to how code is to be submitted to them.
Ooops, I forgot, Apple can’t do no wrong…
Seriously, Apple is doing the bare minimum they are required to do. Doing more would be no problem whatsoever for Apple, they wouldn’t even have to do more work here. That only leaves the conclusion, that Apple is making it as hard as possible for the KHTML devs on purpose.
Now, is this legal?
Yes, it sure is.
Is that the way a company I can like and respect should behave?
No, it certainly isn’t.
“Apple is doing the bare minimum they are required to do”
And that’s all any sensible business should do. Try running one and you’d change your tune. Honestly, OSS advocates have zero business sense and contiunually prove it time and again.
If they fail to violate such licenses then I don’t see where you get off trying to label them as wrong doers.
“And that’s all any sensible business should do.”
Is it? Why is it? You don’t provide any argument except insults.
“If they fail to violate such licenses then I don’t see where you get off trying to label them as wrong doers.”
Try reading my post, I already explained it.
Ooops, I forgot, Apple can’t do no wrong…
Is it necessary to have such a vicious reactionary approach to my original post? no. Lets act like adults here, not over hyped, rabbid fan boys.
The underlying fact is, they’ve abided by the license in which the project was written under. If the KHTML wish for those contributions to come back in a nicer form, then why not add a clause to the licence? “any submissions to the KHTML must be made in a form which allows easy merging with the current tree of code”.
Seriously, Apple is doing the bare minimum they are required to do. Doing more would be no problem whatsoever for Apple, they wouldn’t even have to do more work here. That only leaves the conclusion, that Apple is making it as hard as possible for the KHTML devs on purpose.
Based on what evidence? hysterical anti-Apple fanboyism from the peanut galleries? Apple hasn’t provided them in a nicer form because they’re not required to do so. The underlying fact remains, their primary concern is delivering their own product; why should they then spend more money trying to make things nice for everyone else? why should they spend shareholders money simply to get that nice feel-good factor?
“And that’s all any sensible business should do.”
“Is it? Why is it? You don’t provide any argument except insults. ”
Hello?! Earth to Ralph. You cast the first insult in this thread with your snide apple not doing any wrong comment. And yes I did in fact state my argument in quite clear and easy to understand terms. Once again I will write it in a simpler fashion so you can understand it a) They didn’t violate the license, and b) They have employees to pay and they have to stay in business.
Please explain in precise terms the license clause that Apple failed to meet or simply disappear.
“Ooops, I forgot, Apple can’t do no wrong… “
In this case you’re right… they did nothing wrong… and yes, they DID in fact do everything right. Your tone suggests that you belong to the “Apple can do no right” troll group.” I suppose you’re on the right site to do it as this is the only multi operating system specific web site whos moderators are rarely inclined to moderate down the trolls…. such as yourself.
It benefits Apple to make the patches as easy as possible to merge with KHTML. The KHTML developers are getting pressured and insulted by users for not merging things faster. If it keeps up they’ll more than likely quit and Apple won’t have a project to get source code from.
Seriously, come on get it together people. If your going to be OSS Troll, take it to a OSS place, and lets not bring it into every thread.
Well, that was a very simple review, nice to see someone keeping it simple and not involving any windows bashing, or acting like OS X is a gift from god.
I’ve been overall bummed with tiger. Its running better after a clean install. A good deal of nice things in it, though lots of under-implementations that bum me out. Such at Dashboard not having multiple layers to allow some widgets to be left on the desktop (since without that many are worthless). Or the new slideshow not having a option for being in a window, not full screen, or it’s picture limit.
On the plus you can at least create new safari windows via right click the dock icon, still not how it should be, but a step in the right direction. To bad safari still blows up to sucking 300+ meg in less then a day, Dashboard probably doesn’t help things there. And still many basic things missing in safari, like new tab/window buttons, go button, ability to make new folders when creating a bookmark. How those aren’t there I just don’t know. Apple keeps coming up short on leaving out basic things.
Also has been rather buggy, slideshow, and dashboard seam to poor out bugs based on the discussions on apple.com.
Still, nice improvement. A few things that bother me were fixed, and some biggies, like preview got a heavy upgrade, much needed. actualy shift through images nicely. And the addition of slide show was very much needed. Still needs some work, but it’s getting OS X something close to Windows picture and fax viewer.
Also seam to be having issue with system wide spell check.
“And yes I did in fact state my argument in quite clear and easy to understand terms. Once again I will write it in a simpler fashion so you can understand it a) They didn’t violate the license, and b) They have employees to pay and they have to stay in business.”
Jesus, I can only repeat it, yes you are right, they did not violate the license and yes, you are right, they do have employees to pay and have to stay in business? Did I ever dispute one of the two? No. So what’s your point?
Ok, of course you are implying that from Apple being a company it logically follows that their behaviour is the only right thing to do. Now of course, that doesn’t follow and you still provide no argument whatsoever to make your point.
“Please explain in precise terms the license clause that Apple failed to meet or simply disappear.”
As I said in every post now, Apple violating the license clause is not the point here? Are your readingabillities really that badly challenged?
And no, I won’t disappear, sorry, but you’ll have to live with people having different oppinions and what’s worse, people asking you to at least provide something even remotely resembling an argument, not just insults.
” it benefits Apple to make the patches as easy as possible to merge with KHTML. The KHTML developers are getting pressured and insulted by users for not merging things faster. If it keeps up they’ll more than likely quit and Apple won’t have a project to get source code from.”
I don’t think apple has any fears there. They can maintain the source they have on their own. Any OSS project giving up won’t hurt apple, they will keep going. But if apple gives up on a OSS project, that project will be hurting.
It’s better if Apple zealots stop spewing crap about Apple working in unision or coperation with Open Source. The reality is that they don’t. All I see is free riding. Apple takes what they want, OSXize it, call it innovation and let the hype train do the rest.
Then you have clueless twits shouting Apple cooperates with Open source. Everyone and their grandaddy knows Apples discourages their employees from working on open source projects except the ones they have sanctioned.
So please stop the fantasy Apple and Open Source live happily ever soap opera. It’s annoying. Apple are within their legal rights to do as they wish with Web core, but stop spreading delusions about KHTML and Web Core developers working hand in hand. It’s false. Same goes for Darwin, FreeBSD and GCC. I’m probably forgetting others.
“Then you have clueless twits shouting Apple cooperates with Open source. Everyone and their grandaddy knows Apples discourages their employees from working on open source projects except the ones they have sanctioned. ”
My gradaddy has a question for you. He wants you to answer his one simple question: Did or did not Apple provide their code changes back to the community? Now don’t split hairs about how it was delivered, WAS it delivered? A simple yes or no answer will suffice. More than that will just increase your troll counter. My gradaddy awaits your reply with eager anticipation.
I’ve been overall bummed with tiger. Its running better after a clean install. A good deal of nice things in it, though lots of under-implementations that bum me out. Such at Dashboard not having multiple layers to allow some widgets to be left on the desktop (since without that many are worthless). Or the new slideshow not having a option for being in a window, not full screen, or it’s picture limit.
Definately. More internationalised support for their widgets would have been good as well. The grand assumption that the only people who use Macs are residing in America is causing just as much harm as the assumption by McDonalds assuming that beef burgers would be as popular in Asia as it is in the Americas.
True about the dashboard; something like a “side board” would be a great addition; a floating dashboard that doesn’t consume the whole desktop.
On the plus you can at least create new safari windows via right click the dock icon, still not how it should be, but a step in the right direction. To bad safari still blows up to sucking 300+ meg in less then a day, Dashboard probably doesn’t help things there. And still many basic things missing in safari, like new tab/window buttons, go button, ability to make new folders when creating a bookmark. How those aren’t there I just don’t know. Apple keeps coming up short on leaving out basic things.
Yeah, one site I go to, which has rather heavy graphics, bought the whole Safari to a crawl in Panther. In Tiger there has been a decent improvement, but the CPU consumption and memory hogging it still there.
Also seam to be having issue with system wide spell check.
Localisation is also an issue; why, when I set my country to New Zealand does Apple insist that my dictionary in American? every release, since my first Mac (10.2.x), I’ve had to reset it back to British English.
“I don’t think apple has any fears there. They can maintain the source they have on their own. Any OSS project giving up won’t hurt apple, they will keep going. But if apple gives up on a OSS project, that project will be hurting.”
I doubt very seriously that this would have any significant impact on the KDE project.
“Jesus, I can only repeat it, yes you are right, they did not violate the license and yes, you are right, they do have employees to pay and have to stay in business? Did I ever dispute one of the two? No. So what’s your point? ”
My point is that you are a troll. You can’t be anything else really since you don’t disagree with my justification of Apple’s actions yet feel compelled to complain about them.
This is getting really silly. Nobody is disputing that Apple is doing what they have to do under the license, yet you keep asking and asking if that was the case? Try to read for a change…
Now of course it is easy to see that the point you are trying to make in your clumsy way is, if Apple doesn’t break the law, everything they do is fine. That’s of course, at least, debatable. But instead of debating it, you simply ignore the issues brought up by others and on top of that, you have the annoying habit of calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll.
To add insult to injury, you also simply assume that Apple’s behavior is the only behavior that makes economic sense. However, you still did not provide any argument whatsoever why that should be the case and on top of it ignored anyone who argued why it might not makes sense after all.
Seriously, as you might have found out by now, I’m not exactly what one could call an Apple fan, however I really have to pitty a company that has defenders like you. With friends like this…
Interesting, when I visit http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.4/ I can get everything I need. NetBSD is merging the changes, along with FreeBSD and any other they borrow off. The only people blowing chunks is the KHTML team.
at first wasn’t too good too.
I’m no programmer, but I’m in marketing/sales. My contributions (besides paying a couple of programmers who are part of OS developer teams) therefore always focus on communications, pressreleases, overall marketing and such.
My first contribution to a large project was 2 years ago, a detailed piece (4 pages) on a project image, based on logo, pressreleases and website. I did a thorough analyses and bottomline was that there wasn’t much consistency in it and – worst of all- that their project logo was very nationalistic. Since one of their goals was ‘global acceptance’, I suggested a change in logo. As I’m no designer I didn’t submit a logo, but did put in guidelines and some direction.
I got back an email with one sentence: “We like the logo as it is, so what is your problem?” No greetings, no ‘thank you’, nothing.
It pissed me off …. I mean: if someone takes time to write a constructive piece of 4 pages you at least can have the decency to respond in a normal manner.
Last December they btw overhauled their logo and communications and used a lot of my remarks and suggestions. I don’t have to have credits for it, but a ‘Hey after all we were wrong and you were right’ email would have been in place here.
Bottomline: you indeed can encounter some funny ego’s in the OS communities. People that end up defending their Kingdom without looking at the overall Empire … Those K-people should learn one thing from Apple, since Apple simply put such an Ego on top of their foodchain, so the Empire at least is moving in one direction.
Chaveat: I know there also are a lot of great, even fantastic, people around in OS communities. I personally know a lot of them (thank goodness), even married one.
No, they don’t. Apple has it’s own “private” development branch. If they worked with the open source community, there will be no need for a “private” development branch. And dumping 100MB patches every six months does not qualify as contribution. Not if you know what software development and open source entails. Is your grandaddy satisfied now?
No, they don’t. Apple has it’s own “private” development branch. If they worked with the open source community, there will be no need for a “private” development branch. And dumping 100MB patches every six months does not qualify as contribution. Not if you know what software development and open source entails. Is your grandaddy satisfied now?
How is that different to any other company working with the opensource community? you walk around claiming Apple to be the only one with an internal CVS tree. How about SUN? Red Hat? Novell? all these companies have internal CVS trees.
Like I said, if KHTML find the way in which Apple conducts their code submissions such a drain on resources, why not change the licence? add a clause to force them to merge more frequently and provide patches that are easier to merge.
You seem to think that its all a one way street; Apple has done its legal obligation, if the KHTML wish to force them to be more co-operative, they have the option via the licence to make it possible.
It’s very simple:
1. Apple did nothing wrong. They provide the source of their own fork of KHTML. They do exactly what is required of them, nothing more, nothing less.
2. What they’re doing is not usefull to the KHTML developers at all. Merging Apple’s source diffs with the KHTML tree requires as much work as implementing their changes from scratch. Apple’s choice of KHTML did not benefit the KHTML development at all, as many Apple fans used to believe.
So the last word is, Apple did nothing wrong. But don’t believe that Apple has been of any use in the KHTML effort.
It’s different because the companies you mentioned contribute many patches back upstream via the “public” CVS. And the issue is not about Apple’s legality or Licenses errors. The issues is about people making clueless statements, like Apple works in coperation with open source developers. They don’t. They do their own thing. And hardly make any contributions upstream.
I see contributions from IBM, SUN, HP, Red Hat, Novell etc in changelogs of major OSS projects. I have never seen one from Apple. Not even in GCC. I haven’t checked the GCC-4.0 changelog but I’d be shocked if I saw any contribution from Apple. Do they use OSS stuff sure. Do they contribute back, not to my knowledge. All I here is raving fanatics shouting about how Apple has made KHTML better, GCC better, yaddi, yadda, blah blah.
Once again, I don’t give a damn whether or not they contribute code to the community, but people should stop spreading myths, that’s all I ask for. Oh, and I want Apple to use a lot more open source products, that’s why it’s open anyway. Besides, it’s an acknowlegdement of the community’s effort. Meh, I’m tired.
I agree with the Kaiwai camp here.
Apple has abided every aspect of the license used by khtml. If the khtml devs aren’t satisfied than it’s their own fault, they should’ve taken another license. As simple as that. There’s not more to it. That’s all. If a teacher instructs you to make assignment 1 thru 6, you won’t be making 7 thru 10 as well now would you? Then, how would you feel if the teacher started complaining the next day that you hadn’t done 7 thru 10? You’d be pretty pissed off.
I wonder why the KHTML project would choose a license that doesn’t match their intentions. If they wanted Apple to work with them in cooperation, why didn’t they say so from the beginning?
Also, I think p***ing on Apple doesn’t help the situation now. I understand that they are very annoyed (I’d be too), but if they feel cheated the best thing they could do is stop doing business with Apple.
It’s worth noting that the KHTML devs aren’t really upset at Apple. They recognize that Apple did all that was asked of them. They’re only pissed off at legions of people that assume that Apple’s benefiting them. In practice they aren’t. Blame Apple for not helping enough, blame the KHTML devs for not working at it – either way the original point stands well enough without any finger pointing. They just don’t want people assuming that Safari and Konqueror are directly beneficial. Attacking either side over a statement like that only reaffirms that you’re one of the people they hate in the first place!
Do you have any clue how large and complex the GCC project is? Or are you intentionally being difficult? Do you think making changes to project the size of GCC is like copying and pasting word files? That site is useless. Come up with better excuses. Stop acting like bloody fanboy and mindless zealot.
Do you have any clue how large and complex the GCC project is? Or are you intentionally being difficult? Do you think making changes to project the size of GCC is like copying and pasting word files? That site is useless. Come up with better excuses. Stop acting like bloody fanboy and mindless zealot.
GCC maintainers KNOW when the Mac version was forked off the main tree. If they’re too lazy to work back from there, then it is there own fault and no one elses.
Like I said, if these groups don’t like it, they have tools, both legal (through an admendment to the licence) and via confronting Apple in a constructive manner. Neither of these avenues have been done.
I agree with you after reading the links you originally posted. I don’t think Kawaii bothered to read those. It seems that the changes Apple have made make incorporating the improvements back into KHTML impossible. Almost seems deliberate.
Its unfortunate. People saying that companies should only do the bare minimum forget that goodwill may be an advantage later on and that since companies are comprised of individuals and that the shareholders always trace back to individuals in someone it is not unreasonable to expect companies to behave ethically even if behaving ethically is more effort than simply obeying the law. There are many companies out there that do this.
A company can do things that are unethical without them being illegal. i’m uninformed regarding the issues between the OSS community and apple, but simply saying that apple hasn’t done anything illegal doesn’t absolve apple of having done anything unethical. however, what is ethical is extremely subjective, and sometimes it is good business sense to do unethical things. i’m not pointing fingers at either paty here since i haven’t seen much in the way of information one way or the other.
You are beating the wrong dead horse. Apple is within their rights, and their actions make sense for a company. No one disputes that. People are simply saying that there is no cooperation, and they are dead right.
Sure, the khtml guys could use some of the changes from the monolithic code chunks they are occasionally given, but when doing so would be more work than coding the features/fixes themselves, it is useless. I’m not cussing Apple out for that (though I find it mildly distasteful), but there is no cooperation. How can you possibly find that so hard to understand?
What is so annoying is people assuming Apple and OSS work together nicely. They don’t. Who gets the blame for that will vary depending on who you ask, but the result is the same: the vaunted cooperation is not there. Saying that it is puts too rosy a glow on things and doesn’t represent the truth.
By all means go ahead and point out yet again how Apple has violated no licenses and just ignore what people are actually saying.
How many bloody times do I have to repeat that this has nothing to do with license or legalities? Apple does not cooperate with Open Source, period. Nobody is saying that’s an issue except you.
So you’re going to moan to me about my ‘lack of reading’, how about reading the article:
MacOS X shows how commercial and open-source software can be married together and provide a top notch solution to developers and end users alike.
Now, where in that phrase did I say there was a merry old orgy between Apple and the opensource community? You want to jump on me for no ‘word for word’ reading and taking in what you said, how about YOU reading the article and comprehending it properly.
*NO WHERE* do I say that there is a perfect harmony between Apple and the OSS community. I clearly stated that Apple has embraced some opensource software and used it as part of their commercial software. I have not mentioneed a bloody thing about the cooperation or whether or not KHTML developers get along.
The underlying fact is, it is immaterial to the end user and to this discussion. The discussion is the review of Apple MacOS X 10.4, not the opensource community or any other intereting tit-bits. If you’ve got a comment relating to the article or to make a comment about your own experience with Tiger, then go ahead, other wise, bugger off and contribute something to the opensource community that you love so much.
Out of curiosity what projects have complained about Apple aside from the very recent KHTML one?
I also find it interesting that the original blog post emphasized that they had no quarrel with Apple, just users that expect them to be able to implement all of Web Core’s changes. Where as this second post seems to say, “Don’t yell at our people, yell at Apple!” Both posts were pretty bitter and angry, but the second honestly seems to be a lot less well put together at the very least.
Not to mention the original post eventually had a sub comment where Dave Hyatt, one of the major Web Core developers busted his butt trying to give back some more substantial patches (which they still had some problems with but were working to implement. I don’t think Apple can be blaimed for their implementation of things not being easy to put back into the original tree. Hell they even complained that it didn’t meet THEIR standards. Either way I don’t see how this one incident shows how Apple is raping the open source community.
If you’re gonna link to the KDE dev’s blogs you could be a teeny bit less selective. For we have another post reaffirming their problem is with users expecting them to be able to implement WebCore easily, not actually having problems doing so.
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1006
They also if you look further up have a set of proposals for Apple. Considering this the crap only hit the fan a couple days ago I don’t think people should be too quick to judge either KDE’s devs or Apple until we actually see what the groups involved’s reactions really are.
You obviously didn’t notice it, as so many others didn’t, which let to the KHTML guys being frustrated in the first place, but this issue has been going on for quite some time now. The only thing that changed is that it was discussed more prominently lately.
However, this issue being discussed more openly might help to eventually solve the problems:
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/14
(While we are wildly posting blog entries anyway 🙂
A “marriage” suggests mutual benefits between the parties involved. Clearly, there is no “marriage” involved. It looks more to me like slavery. Change that word from “married” to “utilize” and the whole statement sounds a little less annoying and actually truthful.
Secondly, I was responding to your cohorts who insist Apple is on a honeymoon with the open source community or software. Once again they aren’t. Last time I checked, I had to right to respond to comments and dispel myths.
If any of those bother you, bugger off. You are beginning to fit the “Apple-is-divine” profile.
You obviously didn’t notice it, as so many others didn’t, which let to the KHTML guys being frustrated in the first place, but this issue has been going on for quite some time now. The only thing that changed is that it was discussed more prominently lately.
Yes, but people here also fail to realise how complicated the situation is, and the code changes required to get KWQ to work with KHTML and the mirade of other things that go with it. The way people are acting, is if Apple is doing sweet-bugger-all, and simply pushing random bits of code to the KHTML and saying, “sort it our yourself”.
Simply providing links to someone ranting in a pissed off state doesn’t equate to what the real situation is.
“The way people are acting, is if Apple is doing sweet-bugger-all, and simply pushing random bits of code to the KHTML and saying, “sort it our yourself”.”
That basicly sums up what Apple is doing.
A “marriage” suggests mutual benefits between the parties involved. Clearly, there is no “marriage” involved. It looks more to me like slavery. Change that word from “married” to “utilize” and the whole statement sounds a little less annoying and actually truthful.
Again, I post:
MacOS X shows how commercial and open-source software can be married together and provide a top notch solution to developers and end users alike.
Where did I mention opensource developers? The marriage of opensource and commercial is the creation of a product based off opensource software (XML/KHTML/GCC etc.) and using those components to build commercial applications off them, such as in the case of MacOS X, the use of JSCore, WebCore and XML to create Dashboard.
As for the comment, “to developers and end users alike”, they include end users such as myself, and developers such as those who are creating new dashboard widgets, and third party applications.
So yes, there is a perfect marriage between opensource and commercial as with the case of MacOS X. The behind the scenes situation has not been mentioned by me, YOU were the one who raised it – completely off topic for the current conversation.
Secondly, I was responding to your cohorts who insist Apple is on a honeymoon with the open source community or software. Once again they aren’t. Last time I checked, I had to right to respond to comments and dispel myths.
If any of those bother you, bugger off. You are beginning to fit the “Apple-is-divine” profile.
I am telling you to bugger off because you HAVE NO argument. You’re simply filling up osnews.com database because you like the sound of your own voice (or in this case, the view of your own text).
It is a review of a product; talk about the product, the lack of features of the problems you’re having, but don’t bring in the software politics that goes on behind it. It is as pathetic as a OSS fanboy using politics to justify his hatred of Microsoft instead of using valid technical arguments.
Ralph: “Apple is doing the bare minimum they are required to do”
Zetsurin: “And that’s all any sensible business should do. Try running one and you’d change your tune. Honestly, OSS advocates have zero business sense and contiunually prove it time and again.
If they fail to violate such licenses then I don’t see where you get off trying to label them as wrong doers.”
I have run a business, two actually, so I’ll comment on this.
It’s not only annoying and anti-social, it’s counterproductive and not cost effective. Just as the KDE developers can’t easily use what Apple changes, neither can Apple’s developers easily merge the changes the KDE developers make back into the Apple code base. That’s extra work to fix the same problems and begs the question why not write it all from scratch anyway.
The main requirement of using CVS and the regression test platform that KDE devs use is that Apple’s developers actually engage in the development process as a team with KDE developers. For whatever reason, Apple developers aren’t doing so. That’s a message of bad faith.
*** As a person who has run two businesses, it is not being wasteful or weak to play nice with partners. 1/2 the value of a business relationship is the contract, the other is your personal good will. If you act in bad faith, but to the letter of the contract, you’re going to only make enemies and will make your own efforts harder to perform in the future. Nobody likes a leach, and yes everyone notices.***
Bottom line: Apple’s actions are dumb, lazy, bad PR, and bad business.
Apple noticed free (as in no money) source code just as they did with the BSD source they are using and took that as a way to catch up. It’s sad that they don’t get the business sense of why they should communicate — that’s OK, I guess, neither do you.
I suppose you think open source software falls from the sky. Yes, that’s right, they don’t. You are right again, open source developers work on them. To artificially alienate open source developers from their work is clever.
To claim that there is a marraige between Apple products and open source software is as ingenious, but equally deceitful. Because that statement equally implies that open source developers work hand in hand with free software developers to create a smashing combo, hence the marraige. That’s false.
Nice work trying to paint me as an OSS fanboy. Don’t worry about the OSNews database, I doubt it is filling up anytime soon. Just keep telling me there is a marraige involved, and keep quoting your marraige statement until you think I’m hypnotized by it.
Again:
MacOS X shows how commercial and open-source software can be married together and provide a top notch solution to developers and end users alike.
Again, where did I say *anything* about the opensource developers?
There is a marriage between opensource software and commercial software.
Let me put this is *really* basic terms:
Webcore + JSCore + LibXML <– That is the opensource side
Dashboard <– That is the closed source/commercial side
Webcore + JSCore + LibXML + [code from Apple] = Dashboard
Where do mention the opensource developers? no where, just like I don’t mention the commercial software developers; both are irrelevant to the article. The end product IS the result of both work done by a commercial software house embracing some opensource software and basing their product on it.
As I said, what goes on behinds the scenes is irrelevant to the end user. The politics between Apple and the Opensource community, again, is irrelevant to the converation, what is relevant is talking about the end product, and for all intensive purposes, it is a product made up of opensource and commercial software.
Come on, grow up people. kaiwai you have to stop crying troll, seriously, look back at your posts, in each you either get a jab in at the person or just being insulting. The facts of the matter are a matter of record. Whereas Apple did not do anything wrong, they also didn’t do anything of any use. As I understood it, the main complaint the khtml team had was that they didn’t like people painting Apple as helping the khtml team. I think thats more than fair. If they didn’t, its not helpful for either khtml or Apple to have people saying that they have made large contributions.
Just relax everyone, and remember, if someone is trolling, they won’t stop regardless of what you say. Trying to talk to a troll is like driving with your feet, you can do it, but it doesn’t mean it should be done
Peace,
Michael Moran
“Again, where did I say *anything* about the opensource developers?”
Jesus, please stop acting stupid.
The term marriage implies two parties involved, in this case Apple on the one hand and open source developers on the other hand.
Yes, BUT I never said “A marriage between opensource developes and Apple”, I said, commercial and open-source software can be married together , meaning, that commercial and opensource software – the ACTUAL software itself is married together. Not the developers, companies, or anything else, *JUST* the software and *ONLY* the software.
Why do people have such difficulties comprehending a basic quotation? I swear, it is though something has sucked everything out of their brains resulting in this warped sense of reality.
Had I said, “A marriage between opensource developes and Apple”, then sure, drag me by my head and lynch me in the middle of the town square, BUT the fact remains, that isn’t the situation. I never said such a thing.
Come on, grow up people. kaiwai you have to stop crying troll, seriously, look back at your posts, in each you either get a jab in at the person or just being insulting. The facts of the matter are a matter of record. Whereas Apple did not do anything wrong, they also didn’t do anything of any use. As I understood it, the main complaint the khtml team had was that they didn’t like people painting Apple as helping the khtml team. I think thats more than fair. If they didn’t, its not helpful for either khtml or Apple to have people saying that they have made large contributions.
And who did I insult? need I remind you that the first person, ralph bought up the issue of KHTML because he lack of comprehension skills. Like I said in the post before this one; Had I said, “A marriage between opensource developes and Apple”, then sure, drag me by my head and lynch me in the middle of the town square, BUT the fact remains, that isn’t the situation. I never said such a thing, I said, and I quote: commercial and open-source software can be married together , meaning, that commercial and opensource software – the ACTUAL software itself is married together. Not the developers, companies, or anything else, *JUST* the software and *ONLY* the software.
Just relax everyone, and remember, if someone is trolling, they won’t stop regardless of what you say. Trying to talk to a troll is like driving with your feet, you can do it, but it doesn’t mean it should be done
LOL, good Chris Rock quote
“Yes, BUT I never said “A marriage …”
Pick your favorite mantra…OMMMMMMM…
…OMMMMMM…
If that doesn’t work, I have some beer that I can recommend.
As someone already mentioned, open source software is written by open source developers, so what is your point here?
And if you want to be anal about it, the actual software isn’t married together either, as Apple is basicly taking the open source software and using it without giving back, at least that’s the impression I and other people get from the way Apple are acting towards KHTML, so no marriage here either, but simply a rip off.
“And who did I insult? need I remind you that the first person, ralph bought up the issue of KHTML because he lack of comprehension skills.”
ROFL. 😀
“And if you want to be anal about it, the actual software isn’t married together either, as Apple is basicly taking the open source software and using it without giving back, at least that’s the impression I and other people get from the way Apple are acting towards KHTML, so no marriage here either, but simply a rip off.”
Not a rip off…though definately in bad faith and in no way a marrage no matter how you slice it. See my comments to @zetsurin — response #43..44.
I agree, rip off may be to strong, but I just wanted to get my point across and somehow I got the impression that required strong language…
Evereybody, just please, stop this useless argument. Apple adheres to the license, the khtml guys aren’t pleased with how Apple returns the favor, that’s it. End of story. Nobody has died, nobody is injured. I have seen some silly arguments in my life, but this one is deffo going to be in the top-ten.
The matter here is that the license obviously isn’t compatible with the whishes of the khtml team. As the kaiwai camp and I said: then change your friggin’ license! If you keep this license, than you have no right to diss Apple for not handing everything out on a golden platter. You can complain, obviously, but dissing, no, since Apple is doing nothing *wrong* here. The khtml team *chose* the license the way it is, so they *know* what’s coming at them. If you want things to change, then select another license or add a clause to the existing one and stop whining. The khmtl devs have no right to demand anything extra from Apple. End of story.
The fact that Apple co-operates in a crap-ass way is another matter. I also do not like the way Apple is doing this; but I’m grown-up enough to see that this is simply the way business life goes. Again, I’d like to refer to my analogy with the school teacher: If the teacher tells you to make assignments 1 thru 6 and then the next day he goes all mental because besides 1 thru 6 you did not do 7 thru 10, you’d be pissed off, now, wouldn’t you?
At this point, the khtml guys are the teacher. The khtml guys *themselves* hold the key to improving the situation: edit or change license damnit and be done with it.
As someone already mentioned, open source software is written by open source developers, so what is your point here?
Obviously you don’t want to talk about MacOS X, but to merely muddy the waters and turn it into “everyone is trying screwing over opensource”; slashdot.org should be the place to visit.
And if you want to be anal about it, the actual software isn’t married together either, as Apple is basicly taking the open source software and using it without giving back, at least that’s the impression I and other people get from the way Apple are acting towards KHTML, so no marriage here either, but simply a rip off.
But how is that relevant to the article in question? answer: there is no relevance. In a nutshell, I gave a view and simply said, “isn’t it cool how Apple is using opensource software in their products to deliver really cool features”. You seem to somehow take exception to the idea of Apple using opensource technologies or the way they do business.
The fact remains, not once in my article did I raise those issues; it was a review from an end users perspective, and from an end users perspective, they’ve done a pretty bloody good job at delivering a commercially viable product.
ROFL. 😀
How is it an insult. I was pointing out a fact. You seem to have problems comprehending basic English. You can’t even seem to understand in what context the word marriage is being used!
You can not alienate open source developers from their products just the same way as you can not alienate Apple for their products. A marriage involves parties, not products.
Evereybody, just please, stop this useless argument. Apple adheres to the license, the khtml guys aren’t pleased with how Apple returns the favor, that’s it. End of story. Nobody has died, nobody is injured. I have seen some silly arguments in my life, but this one is deffo going to be in the top-ten.
The sad part, we have the likes of ‘.’ swinging from ‘doesn’t comply’ to ‘doesn’t help the opensource project merget he changes’. Ralph on the other hand seems to have problems understanding in what context marriage is being used. Both of them are as bad as each other.
The matter here is that the license obviously isn’t compatible with the whishes of the khtml team. As the kaiwai camp and I said: then change your friggin’ license! If you keep this license, than you have no right to diss Apple for not handing everything out on a golden platter. You can complain, obviously, but dissing, no, since Apple is doing nothing *wrong* here. The khtml team *chose* the license the way it is, so they *know* what’s coming at them. If you want things to change, then select another license or add a clause to the existing one and stop whining. The khmtl devs have no right to demand anything extra from Apple. End of story.
The fact that Apple co-operates in a crap-ass way is another matter. I also do not like the way Apple is doing this; but I’m grown-up enough to see that this is simply the way business life goes. Again, I’d like to refer to my analogy with the school teacher: If the teacher tells you to make assignments 1 thru 6 and then the next day he goes all mental because besides 1 thru 6 you did not do 7 thru 10, you’d be pissed off, now, wouldn’t you?
At this point, the khtml guys are the teacher. The khtml guys *themselves* hold the key to improving the situation: edit or change license damnit and be done with it.
I’m sure there are lots of things Apple could and should do differently; heck, they should maybe give free mini-Macs to underprivilaged children, lower the price of MacOS X for non-commercial use etc. but the fact remains, like I said, the article isn’t about the relationship between Apple and the opensource community, it is about Apples *USE* of opensource software within their product, from an end users perspective.
You can not alienate open source developers from their products just the same way as you can not alienate Apple for their products. A marriage involves parties, not products.
Good lord; this is about a product. We’re talking about, as an end user, do I care about the developers who made the product? of course not; what the developers do behind the scenes is of little relevance to how I use my software or how that software is constructed. If they use bloody big leather whips to motivate their programmers, is it of any revelance to me? of course not. If they use some opensource components, how they submit back patches to the opensource project is of any relevance to me? of course not. As an end user, *ALL* I am interested in is the end result, the product.
NOW, if you were one of those “ethical” buyers, who demands that product is constructed in a ethical manner, and you consider Apples treatment of the opensource community as some sort of scare on their reputation, then *MAYBE* you’d have a point, *BUT* for the vast majority out there, they couldn’t give a flying continental how code is submitted back to KHTML.
“Obviously you don’t want to talk about MacOS X, but to merely muddy the waters and turn it into “everyone is trying screwing over opensource”; slashdot.org should be the place to visit.”
1. I never said that everyone is trying to screw over open source, I merely reacted to one part of your article and my “complaint” was specifically about Apple and KHTML.
2. Who said that I didn’t want to talk about OSX? In fact, the only reason that I looked at your article was that I’m contemplating if it is worth for me to upgrade to tiger or not. However, I took the liberty to comment on one specific portion of your article and was immediately attacked by you and others, not on a factual basis, but personally. I then took the freedom to respond to those attacking me.
“But how is that relevant to the article in question?”
See above, my first comment was in reaction to something in your article, my further comments were mainly responses to other comments. The particular comment you are refering to was a response to something you brought up about a 100 times. If you don’t want people to respond to your comments, don’t write comments in the first place.
And if you really don’t see how you constantly insulted people, you really should work on your social skills.
Don’t try to put words in my mouth. I have been firm from the start. Apple does not contribute to or cooperate with the open source community in any visible way. They in fact have policies against their employees participating in open source projects except the ones they have sanctioned.
Do they have the right to do that? Absolutely! Do I have a problem with that? Looks shady, but I really don’t care. Is there any marraige between Apple and the open source community or their products? Absolutely not! OS X uses open source products, period. End of story. No marraige whatsoever is involved, whatever the message you were trying to get accross.
I’m I a troll? That’s a trick question, right?
I’ve been out and now come back home and you lot have spent the whole time hunched over your squabbling about this matter for how long now? How sad is that?!
Get some lives FFS. Maybe I don’t agree with some of you, but I’m not wasting the rest of the evening trying to convince you otherwise.
Go out and get some fresh air, sounds like you all need it.
Don’t try to put words in my mouth. I have been firm from the start. Apple does not contribute to or cooperate with the open source community in any visible way.
They contribute back to the community, but I wouldn’t call them an active participant in the community, I would classify they way they interact is nothing more than passive give and take, rather than mucking in with the opensource developers and playing an active like role like SUN developers play with developing Xorg or GNOME.
You simply dismissed them that they take but give nothing back; if you were to use word, it should have been “they’re a passive participant to the community”.
They in fact have policies against their employees participating in open source projects except the ones they have sanctioned.
Yes, but there are reasons. It isn’t “so they can’t get free labour off us”, its to ensure that ideas from Apple, either in the form of code or R&D don’t find their way into competing products. I don’t see any issues with that, personally. At the end of the day, these programmers chose to take up the position at Apple, and they accepted the terms and conditions of their employment contract.
No marraige whatsoever is involved, whatever the message you were trying to get accross.
Yes, there is no marriage between the opensource community and Apple – then again, we’d have to first define which community we’re referring to. Apple has their own opensource community, and provide to that community via their Darwin project. Personally, I don’t understand why they just don’t provide the *WHOLE* Webcore source for download via their website, and simply let the KHTML look at the whole thing.
All I was stating is this; there is a marriage between opensource software (the actual product) and Apples. Whether there is a marriage between the two developing communities is a different argument entirely – personally, I think that their opensource links are crappy at best. Their Darwin Project has been a monumental failure at best (as one example), they’ve attracted very little developer interest in the Darwin source itself.
how many tiger reviews are next?
Please refrain from using the word tiger in refrence to OS 10.4. Currently Apple is in a trademark dispute with Tigerdirect and they are claiming damages for Apple using the Tiger word.
Funny how it took them 1.5 years before deciding Apple should not use “tiger’. I wonder how much they hope to get in an agreement to allow Apple to use the word?
So please your question should read, “How many OS 10.4 reviews are next?“
Al little of topic, there is no difference between marriage and slavery. Anyone on the board who is married can prove that.
Anybody figure out how to make a Dashboard widgets stay on the Desktop rather than disappearing?
Dashboard is a sepreate enviorment unlike Komfabulator. The Widgets only run when you have dashboard up.
There is a hint on Macoshints.com that shows how you can pull the widgets off in developers mode and make them float on the desktop. But that does not really help because you can not put other Windows over them when working.
Dashboard is nice. But komfabulator to me is better.
The author’s article or what is actually a web blog is more of a rant than a review. It’s really sad to see OSNews allow this to be linked to the site which is supposed to be about “news”. I’m a former Windows user turned Linux advocate and still found the writer’s comments distasteful. If a writer of software/hardware is going to write a review then it should be unbiased as possible while including things such as 1. Listing system specs used for the test, 2. Screenshot images of the software/hardware if relative to the article, 3. benchmark results, 4. Not answering a question with a question instead of a logical and concise answer, 5. Writing about facts by leaving out assumptions, 6. Listing references if applicable.
Well done mate. At least some light hearted comments to light up this silly thread a bit
Does every article posted on this site always have to turn into a fricken war?
Did you notice that David Hyatt has publicly shown interest in finding better ways of contributing to khtml developers?
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/
I don’t think he’s just playing games and pretending to show interest – why would he do that?
Wow, I posted my first post to this beast thinking it might get things on track, and yet it took 60 odd post to get back to the actual article.
This is really sad, its sad that people can drift this much and attack a person for something he didn’t say so much. It’s also sad for how clues some OSS people are about the realties of the world.
Companies and the world in general is not going to turn into a happy go lucky everyone shares, and shares as you want world and people are all happy. Just because you chose to open-source your stuff, doesn’t mean it will get used as you like. You have a license, if your lucky people will obey it, and apple has, and what ever they give you is what you get. You can never has some expectation that those who use your open source project believe as you do, or even care about open source. Your taking a risk putting stuff out there, and as long as a party hasn’t violated the license you can’t say jack. Got a problem with it, make a new license. Go to far and you will see why OSS will never be fully embraced by companies on a large scale.
If you want something some way, and it’s not in the license or contract, and the other party still complies with the license or contract, you have zero ground to stand on. If you don’t like this, stop opensourcing your projects. Or opensource them under a license that doesn’t allow people to use the code.
In the mean time, please stop destroying threads, the moderators should mod down all but a few post in this thing.
“Does every article posted on this site always have to turn into a fricken war?”
yes, yes they do
So basically what we’re arguing about is that Apple upheld the letter of the law by using KDE’s khtml in accordance with their license, but didn’t uphold the SPIRIT of the law by contributing meaningful or useful code to help the khtml developers.
So, the article boils down to a worrisome installer, confusing additions to the OS, confusing removals from the OS, and a general choppiness in Tiger, but still a recommendation that Tiger is an improvement to OS X. Doesn’t sound like fanboyism, doesn’t sound like unreasonable bashing (specific complaints and all). I think this is a fairly good article compared to a lot I’ve seen here.
Whew. I thought that this was a thread about OS X (vers 10.4). I believe that it should either be renamed (eg. KHTML vs non Apple cooperation) or stick to the topic of the thread. ROFL
I don’t know why PC trolls and OSS trolls read about OS X and post their 2¢ on something of no interest to them. They make a big deal of Apple not honoring something while most stuff from open source is a rip off of either Windows or Os X (e.g. Ltunes and Lphotos: even the names are similar)
Anyway, back to the review. This review was nice and had a somewhat different take on Tiger and mirrors my own experience while installing it. I too had an instance where I got no feedback and resorted to doing a hard reset. This happened at the end of installation when I had transferred successfully all data from preferences from another partition to Tiger.
Also a nice write up on Daring Fireball on other aspects not covered by most reviews.
Very true. I think the moderation on this site is very poor to say the least (ironically, perhaps this will get modded out). I rarely even check the comments out here or on /. etc because the computing industry is full of very bitter lonely people who have nothing better to do but camp in front of their keyboards having a flame war.
Anyway, I’m enjoying OSX 10.4 myself, it is proving a very competent replacement of XP for my personal computing experience. I actually find the translation Dashboard app incredibly useful as I speak both English and Japanese and it’s really handy to knock up a quite note to make sure I’m not making any mistakes (BTW, the English->Japanese translation is very good, but the reverse needs some work). I still need to use my XP machine for all my development work of course, since MS is such a big market. However, it’s nice to have a professional, stable OS to use for when I want a break from MS though. I’m looking forward to checking out XCode 2.0 for when I do my OSX porting work I do though….
” They make a big deal of Apple not honoring something while most stuff from open source is a rip off of either Windows or Os X (e.g. Ltunes and Lphotos: even the names are similar) ”
Um, OSX would not even exsist if it was not for Open Source. Nor would Windows.
We all know that almost everything under OSX and Windows has been used from Open Source. Including the TCP/IP stack, Telnet and FTP programs in Windows coming from the BSD world and everything from Apache to the OSX Kernel was open source, BSD and GPL.
Just because Linspire decided to make 2 apps that are copies of Apple apps (Those apps are not even open source) Does not reflect on the whole open source world. And also doesn’t show the fact that MS and Apple borrow more from the open source world then vice versa.
As a matter of fact I have to give Linspire some credit, unlike Apple even though the names are similar the apps were written from scratch. While Apple uses KHTML code in Safari!
The author makes one comment about games companies hopefully taking the MacOS seriously as a platform and doing more ports in house rather than giving the port to 3rd party developers.
Although I haven’t stayed up-to-date with the MacOS gaming scene in the last few years, my recollection is that companies used to do a terrible job of porting games in-house, and the mass movement to 3rd party developers was one of the best things to happen to gaming on the MacOS. In-house developers tend to be not as good as 3rd party developers, who live and die on the quality of their ports.
The only exception I can think of is Blizzard, who do excellent in-house ports, but as I say, I don’t know what’s been going on over the last couple of years.
… behind this flame war? I don’t know how a review of OS X got sidetracked to become a war over what Apple does or doesn’t do for KHTML.
The first post sidetracked the whole thing, and turned the review into another pointless thread.
I think it’s time to go drop this site from my bookmarks. You get the same stuff at Slashdot (usually a few days earlier) and there’s a wider variety of viewpoints so threads don’t implode into vacuity the instant they start.
The author’s article or what is actually a web blog is more of a rant than a review. It’s really sad to see OSNews allow this to be linked to the site which is supposed to be about “news”. I’m a former Windows user turned Linux advocate and still found the writer’s comments distasteful. If a writer of software/hardware is going to write a review then it should be unbiased as possible while including things such as 1. Listing system specs used for the test, 2. Screenshot images of the software/hardware if relative to the article, 3. benchmark results, 4. Not answering a question with a question instead of a logical and concise answer, 5. Writing about facts by leaving out assumptions, 6. Listing references if applicable.
– I’ve added the specs to the bottom of the article, however, anyone who wishes to find out what they were, they can easily find a fairly decent size review of the iMac G5 available by going back to the main page of my blog.
– This was a view from a users perspective, thus making 2 – 6 irrelevant to the conversation. What assumptions have I made? what questions have I failed to answer?
Anyway, I’m enjoying OSX 10.4 myself, it is proving a very competent replacement of XP for my personal computing experience. I actually find the translation Dashboard app incredibly useful as I speak both English and Japanese and it’s really handy to knock up a quite note to make sure I’m not making any mistakes (BTW, the English->Japanese translation is very good, but the reverse needs some work). I still need to use my XP machine for all my development work of course, since MS is such a big market. However, it’s nice to have a professional, stable OS to use for when I want a break from MS though. I’m looking forward to checking out XCode 2.0 for when I do my OSX porting work I do though….
Awesome, thanks for pointing out the translater
My German is a little wonky at times, so it will be a great tool to ensure that I’ve ‘dot’ed all the I’s and crossed all the t’s’ as so to speak.
One thing I found weird about XCode 2.0 in reference to GCC, gcc 3.3 is installed by default long with 4.0, I chose not to install gcc 3.3, however, I found that the symbolic link between gcc-4.0 and gcc was broken (still pointed to gcc-3.3). Anyway, I’m sure thats just a small bug that’ll get fixed as more developers hammer away at the programme and stuble over the bugs as they appear.
The author makes one comment about games companies hopefully taking the MacOS seriously as a platform and doing more ports in house rather than giving the port to 3rd party developers.
Although I haven’t stayed up-to-date with the MacOS gaming scene in the last few years, my recollection is that companies used to do a terrible job of porting games in-house, and the mass movement to 3rd party developers was one of the best things to happen to gaming on the MacOS. In-house developers tend to be not as good as 3rd party developers, who live and die on the quality of their ports.
The only exception I can think of is Blizzard, who do excellent in-house ports, but as I say, I don’t know what’s been going on over the last couple of years.
Simcity 4 is a real nightmare; the performance is *terrible* and *painful* once you get a large city. The whole game play just slows to a crawl; its as though they simply recompiled it, removed any recompiling problems, and optimised none of the code.
With that being said, Civilisation III and Rise of Nations aren’t too bad; the performance is comparable to my flat mates computer.
The issue is simple: No one at KDE seems to be able to write a damn line of ObjC or ObjC++ so when they get the code chunks back they have to implement them in C++ and that I suppose is just too damn much work for them.
And here I thought solving and thinking the problem through with designing your code takes more time than learning another language’s syntax.
When GCC 4.1 gets merged the KHTML Devs should contact the GNUstep folks. They’re looking forward to merging C++ with ObjC via ObjC++. Maybe if you communicate your dilemma another GNU group of personnel will help.
Or you could actually learn ObjC and ObjC++ in the meantime to help with deciphering the code.
I think these discussions will be able to get right back on track quickly if the trolls are not responded to, since moderation isn’t an avenue that can be relied on. Instead of replying to them, I’ll simply make an on topic reply to the original article in future.
BTW, thanks for the heads up about the GCC versions in XCode 2.0 Kaiwai.
I think the above posts elicit the “whining about whiners” award for the day. And here I thought this was a forum for discussion about any aspect of the review, not just praise time for Apple. But thanks for the review anyways, Kawaii.
@ Marc Driftmeyer
Regarding the ObjC++, has KDE considered just replacing the C++ KHTML with the objC++ version? I’m assuming that if it were converted, it would be a matter of writing a small wrapper or some minor code changes to those parts of KDE that rely on KHTML.
@ zetsurin
It would be nice to know what Apple has incldued with their version of GCC – they’ve developed their version out of sync with the main 4.0 development tree, so I am sure there are probably features in it, which aren’t available in the mainline GCC 4.0. I’m sure there is probably a link on the Apple site somewhere.
There’s been what a half dozen Tiger review in the last week, with probably another half dozen more coming up this next week. Might as well have a flame war because nobody’s proving any new information compared to what Arstechnica review covered. Why bother with still more reviews…that coupled with the fact that these last two reviews are by a couple of Mac fanatics and can’t be considered objectively.
You know, Kawaii, maybe you ought to review Solaris 10 for us. That ought to be a good test of your objectivity.
You know, Kawaii, maybe you ought to review Solaris 10 for us. That ought to be a good test of your objectivity.
It depends in what capacity you would like me to test it – as a desktop? server?
Does Tiger also break Sticky Brain 3.0?
It won’t open the database anymore and I don’t get to see the interface. Bother.
Otherwise: it’s finger-licking, toe-sucking good.
KDE, OSS fans: get yourself a Mac and mellow out already [if that doesn’t fan the flames I don’t know what will].
/Loves the kitty.
The company that makes Sticky Brain has released an update for it, so that it works with Tiger (Sticky Brain 3.1 – available via their website).
As for KDE/OSS fans melowing out – its not going to happen.
“KDE, OSS fans: get yourself a Mac and mellow out already [if that doesn’t fan the flames I don’t know what will].”
Over the last year, I’ve advocated Apple Macs to 3 or more people who were thinking about replacing an old computer. I’ve helped my nice pick out an iPod over a few other brands she was considering. I’ve talked a few other Mac users into staying with Apple’s products too when they considered moving to Windows. I’ve worked on Macs of all styles over the years and have found them quite usable if not optimal for my personal use. Obviously, I had no problem with Apple or Apple’s products.
Unfortunately, Apple is steadily moving to the “do not trust” category…not evil though that’s the trend;
* What’s with Jobs kicking the book publisher Wiley’s entire line from Apple stores?
* Why not engauge the OSS community instead of just taking and following the letter (not the spirit) of the licences? It seems quite intentional.
The right — the moral — choice in both cases is simple and not ambigious. Apple is screwing up big time.
Companies that do not act in good faith do not deserve any business; if they screw over one group they can screw over others…including current and future customers. Being worthy of trust starts with treating others — even ‘enemies’ — fairly; taking the high road.
Right now, I’m not against Apple. That said, I will no longer advocate an Apple product or suggest one till Apple shows they aren’t turning to evil. I will be neutral on them for now. This is a change for me just this week, though they have made some questionable choices over the last year.
Thank you for the head’s up. It was obviously the thing to do after the upgrade, but it might have been a gaffe of my own making [although I haven’t done anything to upset the system].
Sorry about the KDE/OSS afficionados having the hot temper.
It’s Spring, people. A time for fun, love and passion. You know, the stuff that makes life worth the bother?
Make something awesome for KDE, something that makes everybody go “Daaahmnnn! I gotta have that” and live in the bliss of being envied.
I’ll drive the Tiger and be happy. I hope you’re happy too.
H.264. It rocketh!
Spotlight… anything you do more to find a file is a waste of effort. Seriously.
The Spotlight add-ons for specific apps, I don’t have the apps but I can see where they are going with them.
Widgets. What’s the weather going to be like: snap!
It really is a way of life. On Windows I’m clicking buttons, on Mac OS X I’m extending myself into the digital realm.
Mac OS is what Linus would have made if he’d had a chance.
Right now, I’m not against Apple. That said, I will no longer advocate an Apple product or suggest one till Apple shows they aren’t turning to evil. I will be neutral on them for now. This is a change for me just this week, though they have made some questionable choices over the last year.
I have to say, I’m not pleased with that either. Obviously this is nothing to do with the workings of the system or the machines, but it speaks to the company.
You could say that it was because they were talking about Jobs in person.
OTOH he’s a very public person and he should know from very many examples that the rich and famous will always catch the wind. I absolutely agree that this is not done. For a man of his standing he should be able to get over that.
If that one book is the one he took offense at, he could have refused to carry it in his stores. That would not have been overboard, they’re his stores after all. But to ban a publishing company with which he’s had a long and prosperous relationship, it is not a good development. It gives the wrong message entirely.
As a publishing house I would send him the blurb from the “Think Different” campaign as a reminder. Jobs of all people should be aware that his attitude towards the people he has worked with hasn’t/isn’t always harmonious. I’m not going to deride him for that [who am I to talk down someone else’s personality], but the consequence of that is that it’s coming back to him in a biography. He can’t be so out of touch with reality that he doesn’t see that.
Steve: get over it!
Which you fail to address what I said on numerous occasions. If KHTML think that they’re being dealt unfairly, why don’t they add a clause to their licence that would force Apple to work more closely with KHTML?
Jobs has always had a fickled personality – this goes right back to when he was first kicked out of Apple back in the 1980s.
Then again, his approach, how is that any different to the obvious bias between the media giants and the Bush re-election campaign?
Right now, I’m not against Apple. That said, I will no longer advocate an Apple product or suggest one till Apple shows they aren’t turning to evil. I will be neutral on them for now. This is a change for me just this week, though they have made some questionable choices over the last year.
Evil? What kind of fantasy land do you live in? You’ve got to be kidding. I mean, there are any number of words you could use to describe cut-throat competitive business practices, but the word evil is just plain silly. Heck, even with Microsoft’s anti-competitive behavior I still wouldn’t classify the company as evil.
Apple operates within their legal bounds with OSS and even in regards to prosecuting individuals for leaking trade secrets. Aside from their killing kittens to make iPods and crippling people with those old hockey puck mice, I don’t think they’re on the road to turning evil per se.
But Seriously – Back on topic:
Just installed Tiger. It’s running great. I just used Automator to perform some image manipulations and it was extremely useful. I can see getting a lot of use out of it very soon. Spotlight’s cool. I particularly like it in Mail. I still prefer Launchbar for some aspects of finding files and applications, but Spotlight is certainly complimentary in this respect. Dashboard is also proving very useful. I can look up all kinds of information a lot quicker than going to a web site to do it. Lots of useful little tools cropping up which is exciting.
“Which you fail to address what I said on numerous occasions. If KHTML think that they’re being dealt unfairly, why don’t they add a clause to their licence that would force Apple to work more closely with KHTML?”
It would be counter productive. The code would be difficult to integrate and be used in other projects, thus harming both KHTML itself and other projects that have done nothing wrong.
Apple isn’t acting in good faith. That’s the problem…not the letter of the licence. I hope they change.
If you need it spelled out, you don’t know much about OSS.
“Evil? What kind of fantasy land do you live in?”
Evil is an overstatement used in a slang context. That said, the actions of some companies — and Apple specifically for the two cases I mentioned — can’t be considered good.
Apple IS acting to the letter of the licence. They AREN’T acting in the spirit. That’s the point. If they keep it up, they could be considered an overall negitive company and thus in a slang sense evil.
Do you want me to be even more anal about this, or are you really that dense? (Dense also being used as slag here…but I think you can grok what I’m saying. Don’t know grok? Look it up.)
Ha! One could also say-But for Apple and Microsoft, there would be no need for OSS!
I think people are getting confused between supporting standards vs open source. Apple has done much in this regard compared to any other company.
They invented and established Firewire standards.
The popularized the adoption of USB (removing all legacy ports on iMacs and other products).
The encouraged the use of ‘Rendezvous’, now ‘Bonjour’ for automatic discovery of network devices.
They popularized the use of wireless (802.11) by adopting these standards early.
They support next generation agreed upon standards for video and audio (H.264 and AAC).
They have hired an open source guru Ron Hubbard who is actively working on open source projects.
They created a kick-ass browser and gave the core of it away.
You can’t please all the people all the time. OSS zealots, please leave this discussion thread and let the Mac people provide feedback on Tiger, so that other Mac folks can determine what Tiger can do for them.
Ha! One could also say-But for Apple and Microsoft, there would be no need for OSS!
I think people are getting confused between supporting standards vs open source. Apple has done much in this regard compared to any other company.
They invented and established Firewire standards.
The popularized the adoption of USB (removing all legacy ports on iMacs and other products).
The encouraged the use of ‘Rendezvous’, now ‘Bonjour’ for automatic discovery of network devices.
They popularized the use of wireless (802.11) by adopting these standards early.
They support next generation agreed upon standards for video and audio (H.264 and AAC).
They have hired an open source guru Ron Hubbard who is actively working on open source projects.
They created a kick-ass browser and gave the core of it away.
You can’t please all the people all the time. OSS zealots, please leave this discussion thread and let the Mac people provide feedback on Tiger, so that other Mac folks can determine what Tiger can do for them.