“Every year or so I like to see how Microsoft is doing in its attempt to make a desktop operating system as usable as Linux. Microsoft Windows XP, Home Edition, with Service Pack 2, is a tremendous improvement over previous Windows versions when it comes to stability and appearance, but it still has many glitches that…” Read more at NewsForge.
Windows rapidly approaching desktop usability
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
“Zealotry will kill any chance of Linux getting anywhere in the *minds* of your “average home user.” Linux zealots have a completely unrealistic grasp of what people will actually pay for and use.”
Windows and Mac seem to be doing fine with their Zealouts. Firefox is only getting more popular, and I’ve heard from many firefox Zealouts. Linux wouldn’t be anywhere without “zealouts.” The corporate world calls them paid marketers, the social world calls them happy customers with big mouths. Zealout is just another spun word like fanboy. Many people admire “religous” devotion to a product and loathe apathy towards one’s favorite tools. How do you think John Deere does so will with such pathetic marketing? Because their customers tell other people, it’s the best form of marketing money can’t buy.
But go ahead, keep calling anyone who tries to tell you about their favourite software a zealout or a fanboy. People will gladly sit indian style and enjoy your pessimistic outlook while that poor boring optimists tells his stories!
See, I can spin with the right choice of words too
.
Mod this up the linear thread!
You left out the restart
[double-click] foo-installer.exe
[click] “I Agree”
[click] “Next”
[click] “Next”
[click] “Next”
[click] “Finish”
(click) “do you want to restart now? Yes No
*installed*
Theres a lot of software for windows that doesnt install on win 95 or 98 first edition. And for MSVC 2005 beta you need XP service pack 2, SP1 won’t do. If new software uses new technology provided by a recent OS update it won’t run on any previous os version. Thats the first point. The second is that, while windows tends to use a lot more resources with each release, linux often enough goes the other way. KDE needs less memory and less cpu whith each release and thats not the only example. So while there is a pressing reason not to install a new windows release, a linux distro upgrade will probably make everything go even smoother as before.
>Johnny installs FooLinux 3.0. He uses GAIM for chatting to
>his friends. One year on, the MSN protocol changes, and he
>needs a new version of GAIM to continue chatting.
>But his distro only provided security fixes, and is no longer
> supported. There is no new GAIM package for his distro. What
> can he do? ‘build’ the ‘tarball’ from ‘source’, potentially
>with different file locations, and parameters that’d
>complicate things? Oh, and he’d need a ‘compiler’ and ‘make’
>installed. WTF?
Some distributions (Debian) do release GAIM protocol updates. It was just discussed on LWN.net. They call it a volatile package.
See also “autopackage” which is kind of like Window’s exe installer (but better). It’s really easy and installs on any system.
http://unattended.msfn.org/intermediate/drivers/packs.htm
Slipstream XP with SP2/hotfixes and add these driverpacks and you have a relatively updated install CD. Not too difficult and the alternative would be paying Microsoft for an updated Windows every year (if they offered it).
And I have to mention this. This was another Linux article that focuses on OS installation. 99% of Linux articles focus on the fact that the installer is now somewhat prettier. I guess that’s the most important feature for Linux to have; From personal experience I install a distro every 6 months. Last time I did a clean install of WinXP on my main system was in 2002. Higher initial effort but less time in the long run.
$ emerge foo
*shit, you must be root*
# emerge foo
*wait*
*still waiting*
*mmm, I’ll get a coffee*
*just keep waiting, waiting, waiting*
*installed*
*read the instructions at the screen*
*etc-update/dispatch-conf*
—
Now, I like Gentoo but you don’t install stuff in exactly one step
. It’s not nearly as brainless as in Windows. It can be quite easy to screw up your installation…
It takes a lot longer to have a functional Windows install than a functional Linux install.
I’m sure that can be true, but I’ve never seen it happen. I’ve yet to see a Linux install go totally smoothly, there’s always tweaking that needs to be done. Drivers that have to be compiled from source, config files that have to be edited to get things running, and unsupported hardware that has to be replaced. Unless you have very old hardware there will be drivers available for Windows, they’ll have a nice graphical installer and graphical configuration.
It would be nice to have a copy of Windows with as much bundled software and as many included drivers as a typical Linux distribution. But with internet access it doesn’t take that long to download the required software. In my experience 99 times out of 100 Linux still takes a lot longer to get working properly than a Windows system.
Even when Linux is set up and working I think it’s significantly inferior to Windows. Linux UIs are getting better, but there’s still a lot more inconsistency between Linux apps created in different toolkits. Don’t get me started on upgrading the OS, the last time I tried to upgrade Mandrake it skrewed up the whole OS and wouldn’t even boot.
If I could see any real advantages to running Linux then maybe I’d feel differently. But overall I think Windows is still a much better choice for people who don’t want to spend their time tweaking the OS.
I really do not care much about this non-sense discussion, however the gentoo part I dont agree. I do crazy stuff (emerge) with my gentoo box. It never brakes, and if something doesnt work properly: unmerge. I am not an expert, but portage is “off the chain”, number one in the charts all the time man. At least in my book.
“Right now, I’m a very happy engineer with a combo of Maxima, Octave, and TeX, GCC, and Emacs/TexMacs. These five programs do 90% of what I use a computer to do, and they do them *very* well. Maxima and Octave are extremely powerful programs, with a lot of support. Not as good as Mathematica and Matlab (which run on Linux anyway), but they’d not be taken lightly if they were $600 products competing in the same market. The magic comes in when they’re used with TexMacs, though. I don’t know of any combo that is as powerful on the Windows platform, save for these applications themselves. ”
You like these. Try axiom.
” Linux UIs are getting better, but there’s still a lot more inconsistency between Linux apps created in different toolkits.”
How many toolkits do you think there are on Windows? I’ve got news for you, you don’t have enough fingers… Ok, there aren’t that many popular ones, but it’s similar to how many popular ones there are for X11.
Even the Microsoft Applications don’t have a consistent look (the feel is mostly consistent except for transforming menus).
Even OS X the supposed champion of UI doesn’t have a consistent look (although I can’t speak for the feel). If you want a consistent look and feel I suggest you make yourself a game world because nothing in real life has a consistent look and feel. Try finding a microwave that is similar in it’s use to your oven! Or a toaster with an adjustable timer and digital readout!
Only perfectionist artist geeks actually expect exact consistency. Yes, I feel Sithy for that statement
. Just call me Darth MA_D!
Good Read! I chuckled through the the whole thing. Very amuseing.
Bin there Done that on both sides of the table and more often on the other!
Remember over 2 years ago when I wrote a funnier version than this?
I have given support to at least two people that borked their whole configuration with etc-update. Of course, overwriting old files by the news wasn’t exactly the brightest thing to do, but some people are just curious…
I agree that Portage is a great system (except for unmerging, I hate that it doesn’t purge the depedencies automatically, but that’s just me) but installing a program is not a brainless process like running an EXE and clicking Next> mindlessly. Some Linux distros are ahead for maintaining your programs up-to-date but there are still some work to do for getting a program outside a repository.
“Or MS should have shorter release cycles. Its been 2001 since MS released a new OS. ”
Why so the usual trolls can say micorosoft if trying to bilk customers by releasing so frequently?
————————————————————–
Yes, MS does bilk the mass’. However, look at Apple. They make a release every year and support for 2 years and that is approx $125 USD.
And if the math is done right, it comes out to approx a retail version of Window (perhaps a little more). Now, I would be glad to get an OS every 2 years with new features and all patched up from the previous release.
Now as for MS bilking the public, an upgrade costs: 139.95! Now don’t go down the OEM bandwagon, most consumers don’t go that route, not to mention that hardware has to be purchased with the CD. Now that upgrade expires in 2006, when Longhorn comes out. Where is the value in that.
Now lets talk Sun. Sun sells Solaris for 80 for non-commercial use. The prices have been dropped to approx 20 and you can download if free. Granted they are trying to get it into the public eye. But before their big marketing blitz, they were selling it for $80 for non-commercial use. And they support it for 5 years. Now Apple and Sun do provide value.
Now lets consider MS Office, depending on what version you get, it cost 300-500 USD retail. Now lets compare StarOffice from Sun, 80 USD. How about WordPerfect or their office suite? It is approx the same lines of StarOffice, if I remember.
Now, why can Sun, Apple and Corel sell products at a resonalbe cost with a resonable time line for support? Why is it that MS cannot accomplish the same as their respected peers in the industry?
Have you ever seen MS profit margins on office and their respective os’. Its goes from 200 to 400 percent!! That is more than making a profit, its called gouging their customers. That would be called a monopoly. And yes, MS was convicted in court.
I was just taking 1998 as the baseline, as it seemed to be the year everyone was talking about. And GTK+ 1.2 is horrible.
Linux is a platform for those who’s time is worth $0/hour.
————————————————————
Its quite obvious you have never tried to remove certain version of sypware and adware for machines running Windows.
Now what do you do when your fav app like ad-ware, spybot, webroot, ms anti-spyware don’t work. Start breaking out process and dll trackers. Tracking crap though out the registry. Or do you just make back up and image over it.
Making images and re-installing vs pulling the ad/spyware from the machine and removie traces from the registry. Yes, it is so cute when that crap re-spawns itself.
Now let me ask, who’s time is worth nothing?
I currently use the Smart package manager on Fedora Core 3. FC3 is currently the king of user-friendly distros, and Smart has got the be the easiest and most complete installer program out. It automatically scans a dozen of the best repositories for packages, and installs them with a couple mouse clicks (one to select the package, and one to start the install). It does a very good job of figuring out what you need to install along with a package (if anything else IS needed), then installing it all. It has a nice feature that figures out what conflicts in your system, then fixes it.
I’ve updated my system to the latest everything, installed nearly all the packages I ever use, and nothing has any problems. Only a couple packages need to be installed separately, and that’s because those people don’t support repositories. For example, I still have to install WINE myself, but all I do is download the Fedora Core RPM and double-click it. The FC package manager then takes care of installing the RPM for me. Easier than a Windows installer.
Good point. When MS bundles extra applications, they’re leveraging their monopoly. When Linux distros do the same, they’re applauded.
Oh the double standards.
————————————————————–
Since when did Linux have 98 percent of the market? I await your reply.
Shoot, this is crazy. Try installing a 4 year old Linux distro, like RH 7.0 or something, bet you cant use it today. However, install XP, and in less than an hour you are up and running, playing games or using software that was released -Yesterday-. Frequent releases isn’t a strength to me, that means they just don’t get it right the first time… Linux can’t figure out how to get it working where software from 3 years ago works on todays linux, and software from yesterday works on 3 year old linuxes. Never mind even trying to add a driver for your brand new hardware… No end user would put up with that.
Linux can be very picky about what hardware it is put on,
windows wil2 run on almost anything, even slow CPU’s
and find sound cards. and dont talk about installing software
yeah… try installing a nice RPM and take a lot of time
trying to find the other RPM’s to make that one install,
yeah it can take all night (example fedora core needs
at least 256 megs and a 400 mhz to just be usable)
WTF are you doing using a Linux LiveCD to partition your friend’s drive for? I hope you realize that the installers for NT4.0, 2K, and XP have a built-in partitioning utility. Do you? If not, then what you have to say about XP taking longer/being more difficult to install is null and void, because you’re obviously not as competent as you should be.
PS: Show me a quote for $150b and I’ll believe you.
————————————————————-
Malware, including viruses, worms and Trojans, cost global businesses between $169 bln and $204 bln in 2004, mi2g claims. With around 600 mln Windows-based computers worldwide, this works out at between $281 to $340 worth of damage per machine.
http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P2531
I have been working with PC’s since the first micro’s back in 79/80. Your knowledge seems quite limited. And your Windows Zealotry is borders on nauseous. Perhaps doing a few google/yahoo/altvista searchs about your platform might lead to some enlightenment.
Am I zealot, no, I am a realist and I work on multiple platforms: Windows, Solaris, Vax and so forth. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t make them a zealot.
IF you are getting adware or spyware in windows, use firefox
or opera.
> “Important Notice: OSNews is not just about operating systems, it is a computing site in general.”
Ah! That explains the name of the site nicely.
204 billions because of malware? strange that i didn’t get my share of it…
That called Sample Bias. Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen at all…
for those who scream because win includes only a minimum of applications:
last time i checked ms was sued becaus they included a mediaplayer. same happened some years ago because they had the great idea to include a webbrowser.
No one screamed, I was just comparing the install times.
However I must point out that the analogy you make is faulty: MS included their web browser, and their media player. Linux distros do not own the programs they bundle. They also usually include a few alternatives for each, as AdamW pointed out. Whereas MS tries to corner markets by making sure everyone uses their apps, Linux distros simply provide a wide variety of quality software. So it’s not the same thing at all, and there is no double standard of any sort.
AdamW:
>> Linux distributions, notoriously, bundle about fifty three web-browsers and seventy six media players, each of which can be removed with a fairly simple command and none of which ties you into an entire philosophy of acquiring content…
Us sane people have a name for that: Bloat. If I want 53 web browsers, ill download 53 web browsers.
Try telling KDE you don’t want the 500 apps it includes. Many rely on each other, and some you cant choose not to install w/o breaking KDE. It’s quite a mess.
Anyway, yeah … $200b is a lot. It’s unfortunate that most people aren’t intelligent enough to avoid getting spyware. My brother, my mother, my father, my girlfriend, my girlfriend’s mother, my girlfriend’s father, my girlfriend’s sister, my friends … are all spyware-free. Why? A two-minute lesson and some fscking insight is all you need.
Then again, you have the 14-year-old girls who run anything sent to them over MSN.
————————————————————-
So, your automated windows scans detects every piece of spyware. Sure it does. Must be a happy place where you live.
Now how about checking out some basic facts that spyware detectors are not 100%. And unless you locked down every machine and created trusted zones or disable several features like Active X. And locking down your browser that much actually makes IE quite unusable.
You do use IE? Right?
I did that once, before I could finish an office install it was down from a blaster exploit I presumed.
We have several RH 7.3 machines at work that are in constant heavy use. We’ve also got Digital Unix 4.0 machines that are in constant use. I’d like to see you give up all the new Windows software from the last four years :-p.
“That makes me laugh. As usable as Linux?”
I just keep on Slakin’ with KDE 3.4. Solid, stable, and productive. It does what I want it to do and does not invade my privacy.
Great article! 🙂
That’s a myth. Very few KDE applications rely on each other. They are packaged together though, but they don’t rely on each other. All of them rely on kdelibs.
I think 53 was a bit of an exxaggeration to say the least. Most distributions try to ship one browser by default, or maybe two (for example epiphany basically needs all of mozilla installed so usually they just install all of mozilla). However, most distributions offer an easy way to get a different browser; and if you install all the packages of a dist you’ll likely get several browsers. I agree that’s bloat which is why I don’t install them all.
I must say I get annoyed lately at having to install a program when I want to use it. I just expect them to be there these days.
People are getting so rediculous about this article. The article was in good humor but some people just take the concept that yes by most journalists standards there is no desktop ready OS out there. I think that’s what the author is trying to point out, that the only reason Windows usually passes for desktop usability is that people are so accustomed to it they forget the things that weren’t really intuitive. Also people figure it must be sense it has such desktop market penetration. But hey, any VMS guy will tell you that ability has nothing to do with receptibility.
Install an *original* (no SP1, no SP2, no hotfixes) Windows XP release and let me know how long you’re playing Solitaire before you get Sasser’ed…
Yep, funny as hell.
I’ll just keep on slackin too.
There are thousands of third-party applications available for Windows XP that have no direct Linux equivalents. For people with specialized software needs — and deep pockets — this wealth of Windows third-party software makes it an excellent operating system choice.
This is the key right here. For those of us who fit into this category (and there are moany more of us than the Linux community would like to think), that makes this entire argument pointless, and makes Linux pointless as well, at least in the terms of being a usable desktop OS anyway. Personally, I’m glad Linux is around because it tends to make Microsoft and its ilk a little more ‘honest’, but I would never (at least for the forseeable future) even consider using it as a desktop OS … I couldn’t. Well, maybe if I considered getting a different job, but hell .. people have to eat.
For those with simpler software needs, the problems and costs associated with Windows XP argue against a switch from GNU/Linux unless Microsoft radically changes its pricing and licensing structure, and manages to make its premier operating system install easily on common, everyday hardware.
Well, depends really. You can set them up with all these ‘bad ass’ apps, but what happens the first time they hit Launch.com? Did you remember to install Crossover and IE6 as well?
As for the whole hardware thing, I’ve found that Linux is actually better at detecting most kinds of ‘common’ hardware, but start throwing things at it like iPods (or pretty much anything that isn’t recognized as a standard mass storage device), PDAs, cell phones, digital cameras, synthesizers, calculators, XM radios, etc, and although I’m certain you can get most of these devices working, I wouldn’t want to be the one in charge of figuring out how to pull it off.
While I can understand that there are people who cannot even consider Linux because of specialized software needs, I think the Windows folks seriously underestimate how many people *can* meet their software needs on Linux, and how quickly those specialized niches are being filled. If you’re a 3D artist, engineer, office worker, or scientist, you can likely already fill your software needs using Linux (and Linux is gaining ground very quickly in such markets). The fact that there are some people who cannot change is relevant, but doesn’t really change the fact that there are lots of people who *can* change.
That’s very true. There’s also something else to consider for the coming years: the advent of the Cell processor, and how Linux already runs on it. With the kind of power the Cell holds, one could easily imagine how Linux could become the multimedia OS – and run Windows apps at better speed than native through emulation layers.
I think Linux’s best shot at the desktop will be on a cell-based PC. I saw the PS3 E3 demo and it’s simply breathtaking.
Tongue and cheek article
eed something that breaks the mold once and a while 😉
As for third party developers, I don’t see it happening. Adobe would rather go out of business than write a piece of software for a platform other than MacOS or Windows.
I don’t think MS Windows is become userfriendly “rapidly” and its certainly not becoming more secure. I’ve had my share of viruses, spyware, and loss of data so now I am all Linux at home and in my entire company. No problems anymore, no stupid questions, everyone loves it. Linux rules!
There’s still major problems with Linux on the desktop
No common crossdistro installer. People need to be able to install apps off of random websites and not be stuck in distro repository universe
Drivers: probably will always be a problem and a huge showstopper. People need to be able to buy hardware with linux drivers on the CD with a easy installation mechanism. Of course there is no stable driver ABI in the kernel so that’s anothe problem
Speed improvments: Look at all the java developers that still use Windows as their development platform. Eclipse, IDEA, and Netbeans all tend to run faster and better than on linux. Not to mention all the crossplatform apps like FireFox that tend to run faster on Window.
No standard toolkit: Not a big as of a problem as the previous examples, but ISVs need to know that something higher level than Xlib is going to be on all systems.
Better developer tools: Developers need high quality IDEs that are like VS or Delphi.
You mentioned scientists and engineers. I think you would find many of them going to OSX if they want Unix than goto Linux.
Linux might work well in a locked down knowledge worker environment, but once you get past that niche than Linux has major problems.
I also thought it would be interesting for someone with deep pockets to take the linux kernel and do something really novel in userspace….instead of YAD (Yet Another Distro).
And finally, in the real world people don’t think software is a religion and could cares less about wacky GNU pseduo-philosophy.
Ignoring the usual garbage spouted by Lumbergh when he talks about Linux, I thought I would look at something more general:
“I also thought it would be interesting for someone with deep pockets to take the linux kernel and do something really novel in userspace….instead of YAD (Yet Another Distro).”
There is nothing novel in userspace and there wont be anything novel in userspace until we get a direct human brain interface (Cory Doctorow’s HUD).
Looking forward to the the Bichun Revolution – where all that “wacky GNU pseduo-philosophy” takes us 😉
Here is my brief comparison..but before i do that…i tell you guys i like windows better than Linux and no i am not biased because i have my reasons. Alright..here we go:
1. Installing Linux is still a pain in the ass. If things don’t work, go look in the forums, search 100s of result google gives to find a ray of hope…or good luck. I simply had a problem with CVS on Linux where it was choking once in a while…reason…unknown..no help…no support…tried updating to latest CVS…dependency crap..finally did it but it was a royal pain…but other than that pain…its working perfectly from then on.
2. Tried setting up SMTP server correctly on Linux, again same crap…where to enable which computers…how to enable relaying etc etc…and well gave up finally with not enough information on forums or may be got tired no proper documentation…installed a third party freeware on Windows…point and click…ready to go.
3. Every new distro f***s things up so much that it feels like learning a new OS all the time…i don’t have time for this crap…OS is for saving my time not wasting it…Windows been very consistence even though they change interface..things have familiar names…they can be accessed easily from gui. It is way more easier to find new things in GUI than finding obscure command lines..
Linux is like that machine which is difficult to start but once started it does its job really well…however…no screwing around…if u screw around and it breaks then god help you..
Windows on the other hand is easy to start…does its job fairly well but not always…you can screw around it a lot and still it works.
I prefer Window for my desktop and Linux for the servers. You know whats best for you.
No common crossdistro installer. People need to be able to install apps off of random websites and not be stuck in distro repository universe
That’s up to developers to use autopackage, however overall this isn’t a real problem. Popular apps are quickly added to repositories, which is a much more convenient installation method than having to hunt down the software on some web site.
In fact, de facto repositories are often what you end up having for Windows as well, with sites such as Tucows and Download.com. It just makes sense to get all of your software from one place, it’s more convenient, not to mention more reassuring for users.
Of course, if you’re stuck in the Windows mindset this requires some imagination…
And finally, in the real world people don’t think software is a religion and could cares less about wacky GNU pseduo-philosophy.
Of course, you just had to say it, didn’t you, Lumbergh?
The important thing is that in the real world, a lot of people understand that vendor lock-in is a bad thing, and are looking at alternatives.
BTW, how is Microsoft’s Windows port for the Cell processor coming along? Because you realize that this will be the next big thing in computing, right? As big as when IBM picked Intel’s chips for its PC – perhaps bigger. Anyone who’s seen the Toshiba demo (where a cell processor used 6 of its 8 vector units to decode 48 mpeg streams at once, and still had 2 units left for other tasks) has seen the writing on the wall, and it don’t spell Windows.
Okay, you can now start with the personal attacks.
“You should have tested with a Linux distro of the same age of XP.”
He did exactly that – he stated that the machine came originally with Mandrake 9.2 installed and it worked perfectly.
I’d agree it is lame – since Windows makes these exact criticisms of Linux, and they are simply not ture.
Linux is easier – to install and to use. Far easier. Supports far more hardware. More secure. Just way better all round.
And it has thousands of appliactions available at zero cost.
There are over 17000 packages installable via synaptic – just a few easy clicks away, all no charge.
You are wrong.
Use apt or synaptic on Linux – it solves the dependencies, automatically works out what is needed, and downloads it all.
Easy software installs just a few clicks away.
My advice to you – don not criticise what you have not tried.
Funny and amusing.
And I think it makes a great point. If Windows wasn’t the legacy standard, it would receive the same–or in some cases, different and worse–criticism than Linux.
An enjoyable read.
“THIS IS THE PROBLEM, PEOPLE. The whole concept of ‘package managers’ and ‘repositories’ doesn’t solve the fact that users are far too highly constrained in what software they can install, and when.”
You find 17000 on-line packages installable at any time constraining somehow?
After installing a distribution that has Office suite & full Inetrnet applications suite installed already?
The restrictive one is Windows.
Where can I find a no-charge on-line set of 17000 packages available for Windows which I can install at any time with a few clicks all via the same Package Manager program?
Hmmmm ?
“If it supports Linux, it doesn’t automatically mean it supports the specific distribution it runs. ”
Only partly true. And a very small part at that.
If it is Open Source and supports Linux, then all the major distributions will compile it and place it in their repositories.
If it is closed source and supports Linux, all the supplier needs to do is compile it for a few variants of Linux – Red Hat, SuSe, Mandrake and Debian. Most everything else will be compatible with one of those.
“I just meant, whenever the problems with Linux software installation come up, some people say “I just apt-get it” etc. like it’s a big solution. Apt (and apt4rpm) is great; it’s not a solution to the underlying problems though. ”
It is a solution.
“No need to keep track of repositories or find sites or make sure foolib.so.4 is installed”.
Correct. There is no need.
Obviously it is a very long time since you have used Linux, or you have not used apt or apt-4-rpm, or you are just plain lying for whatever reason.
“No common crossdistro installer. People need to be able to install apps off of random websites and not be stuck in distro repository universe.”
1. There is a common crossdistro installer.
2. Why does Linux need this anyway? 17000 packages in the Debian repositories. I have never found a Linux application for which there was not a Debian insatllable package in some repository somewhere.
—————-
[double-click] foo-installer.exe
[double-click] foo-installer.exe
[click] “I Agree”
[click] “Next”
[click] “Next”
[click] “Next”
[click] “Finish”
*installed*
——————
Gentoo: $ emerge foo
Debian apt: $ apt-get install foo
Fedora yum: $ yum install foo or yum -y install foo
with smart: smart install foo
*installed*
But since the linux community rocks there are a host of other great package utilities:
pkg_add
pkgtool (is this what slack calls there’s?)
pacman
rpm (note apt is just a medium, not a packager)
dpkg
etc!
you forgot yum and the recent smart packager
“You find 17000 on-line packages installable at any time constraining somehow?
After installing a distribution that has Office suite & full Inetrnet applications suite installed already?”
That’s not the problem. What happens when support ends? You can have all the fanciest package tools and biggest repositories, but if the distro is only providing security updates, what can you do?
Here’s a clue Mark. Go install Mandrake 7.0. Now try to install the latest Gnumeric on it. Oh wait, you’ll need a new Gtk. And Gnome libs. and atk, pango, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and a whole new glibc. And more and more…
THAT’s the problem, and fancy package managers and repositories haven’t solved that. Installing software on any distro over a year old is often a nightmare, as no packages are available.
It’s a disaster, people. Try to understand:
Joe installs Windows 2000. Five years on, he’s still happily installing new programs with a double-click.
Joe installs Linux in 2000. Five years on, barely any new software will work, and he needs to completely overhaul his OS. He’s familiar with his current OS and apps, but no, he can’t keep them if he just wants the latest Evolution. He has to get newer (but not necessarily better) versions of his other apps, giving higher system requirements and demanding a lot of effort.
And that’s FIVE years. With most distros, you have to do this every 12 months. When I say there is no real stability on Linux, I don’t mean non-crashing, but everything’s in a constant state of flux – always changing underneath, requiring library upgrades en masse, billions of distros, toolkits, filesystem layouts, package formats, repositories, distros every 6 months, most only supported for 12-18 months, nothing solid to target – nothing for a user to get settled in.
If anyone doesn’t think this is a real problem that’s hindering desktop Linux adoption, I suggest you talk to some newcomers. It’s huge.
hilarious read…he’s kidding right? approaching the “usability” of Linux? hhahaha, that’s a good one. I’ve tried numerous distros, and have always had to resort to editing some obscure text file for some driver after googling for an hour to figure out what to do. i’ve home built close to a dozen machines and have NEVER had any driver issues with Windows. and sorry, but MSI is leaps and bounds beyond autopackage. everyone complaining about the registry…care to explain why? at least it provides a common API to store config settings…show me that in Linux.
1. Installing Linux is still a pain in the ass. If things don’t work, go look in the forums, search 100s of result google gives to find a ray of hope…or good luck. I simply had a problem with CVS on Linux where it was choking once in a while…reason…unknown..no help…no support…tried updating to latest CVS…dependency crap..finally did it but it was a royal pain…but other than that pain…its working perfectly from then on.
What distro do you talk about? Fedora Core installation is very straight foward and allow the customization of package. I have yet to see that on Windows that only offer Notepad, Word pad and few applications for installation
2. Tried setting up SMTP server correctly on Linux, again same crap…where to enable which computers…how to enable relaying etc etc…and well gave up finally with not enough information on forums or may be got tired no proper documentation…installed a third party freeware on Windows…point and click…ready to go.
Lol! Once again, which distros?
3. Every new distro f***s things up so much that it feels like learning a new OS all the time…i don’t have time for this crap…OS is for saving my time not wasting it…Windows been very consistence even though they change interface..things have familiar names…they can be accessed easily from gui. It is way more easier to find new things in GUI than finding obscure command lines..
Because you feel comfortable to Windows and are unable to be open to the new OS. Menu selection system is the same. I prefer to use both GUI and CLI because if GUI is broken, at least I can fix it with CLI. Windows XP console mode is limited.
Linux is like that machine which is difficult to start but once started it does its job really well…however…no screwing around…if u screw around and it breaks then god help you..
It is obvious you haven’t tried new distros like Fedora or Ubuntu.
You have to understand these people. You could open source the operating system of the Vic20, slap a GNU in front of it, and these people would think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Roblimo does this about once year, once again proving his bitterness that the Linux desktop never took off.
Open Solaris with its stable driver model and none of the shenanigans you have to play to get your binary driver module working probably has a better chance in the long run….as far as open source kernels go.
Most people that want Unix on the desktop have just moved on to OSX and put the Linux box in the closet to use as a server.
Every year or so I like to see how Microsoft is doing in its attempt to make a desktop operating system as usable as Linux.
Ha,Ha,Ha I have to disagree with you on that. It’s cute on how
thousands or even millions of people who knows that they simply can’t walk into their local computer store to buy that lastest video game title or that hot application still dis windows. I simply can’t understand why would anybody would want to run an OS like linux when not all the distros are able to run all the apps that were made for linux because many apps were made to run on certain distros like redhat or suse and many linux apps simply don’t are not that quite good. I like linux don’t get me wrong,but like myself many are living in reality we use the computer for the apps not to belong in some rebel order.sure there are many good apps that are out for linux but the quality of them are still behind. virus, worms come on people stay in reality. i have heard and read on how windows suck because of virus well guess what people sucks too because we also catch virus and worms thats why there are doctors.
What an excellent article. The huge point he makes is Windows comes with no manual?! Now how fucked up aren’t that? My AmigaOS came with excellent manuals, the 1.3 version had even better/more intresting ones than my 2.0 did. Do I have to say they also smelled excellent? Oh, good old brand new amiga smell, how I miss you.
How are people like my mom supposed to find out how to start the firewall (pre sp2), configure the network, add a printer, burn a cd, change resolution and so on when there are no manual? Stupid x86 oses.
Does MacOS X come with a manual?
“Well, i’m a GNU/Linux “supporter” but your article is not fair.
Probably XP didn’t recognize your NIC because it was released after the release of XP, hence the driver is not included.
You should have tested with a Linux distro of the same age of XP.”
Or you could put it as he should have gotten an up to date version of windows instead of something 5 years old?
Hehe, because lets face it folks, you’ll never be stuck up, greedy, and superficial if you run Linux.
Ubuntu, for example, has a habit of freaking out whenever nVidia drivers are installed
??? I’ve got 2 pc’s on my LAN running Hoary, one with a geforce 2 mx 400 and the other Geforce 6600GT and Iv’e never had any problems?
apt-get install nvidia-glx
nvidia-glx-config enable
works perfect.
Hehe, because lets face it folks, you’ll never be stuck up, greedy, and superficial if you run Linux.
Thanks for finding my written comment funny.
“THAT’s the problem, and fancy package managers and repositories haven’t solved that. Installing software on any distro over a year old is often a nightmare, as no packages are available.”
Thats why you have cds….
“Joe installs Windows 2000”
Joe then decides to install the latest java release, joe decides to install the latest windows installer because java as well as other programs he uses wants the newest windows installer. The newest installer freaks out during install and basically joe can run any newly installed apps but a lot of the older ones wont even run including his paint shop pro 7. Can we say reinstall just to get things back to normal, and joe can repeat the results as well….
Joe tries to play some of his older games and OH NO they dont work anymore!
Joe then tries install a demo version of M$ office to see if he likes it and wants to purchase it. Oh no the latest version requires service pack such and such and since joe is on dialup that is just impossible. SO joe goes to his windowsME box which and lord help, the latest M$ office wont even install on that system.
I know joe, heck i am joe, and this has been a true story
——————
Joe installs Linux in 2000. Five years on, barely any new software will work, and he needs to completely overhaul his OS. He’s familiar with his current OS and apps, but no, he can’t keep them if he just wants the latest Evolution. He has to get newer (but not necessarily better) versions of his other apps, giving higher system requirements and demanding a lot of effort.
And that’s FIVE years. With most distros, you have to do this every 12 months. When I say there is no real stability on Linux, I don’t mean non-crashing, but everything’s in a constant state of flux – always changing underneath, requiring library upgrades en masse, billions of distros, toolkits, filesystem layouts, package formats, repositories, distros every 6 months, most only supported for 12-18 months, nothing solid to target – nothing for a user to get settled in.
>>never used debian have you
But thanks for the thoughts, maybe you have a point that some of that scares off newcomers…. hadnt thought about that much
sounds like a honest personal opinion about someones experience with windowsXP, and has some good points too!
certainly as fair as the NUMEROUS “linux isnt usable” reviews we have all seen
“That’s up to developers to use autopackage, however overall this isn’t a real problem. Popular apps are quickly added to repositories, which is a much more convenient installation method than having to hunt down the software on some web site. ”
1. more convenient my ass, even IF synaptic tells you that package Fooword is a word proccessoryou have have no real idea as to what the program is like, unless you’re in the habit of downloading things willy nilly based entirely on thei name you’ll still end up on the internet looking at the website to see if it’s worth installing, unless of course you already know the program in which case you’re not hardly going to be hunting for it.
2. “Popular apps are quickly added to repositories” it’s not about the popular apps it’s about the little apps like gnome-launch-box so far as i know only foresight linux (probably specifix as well then) has a package for it. as a windows user, as long as the program runs on windows it will run on my computer with an near zero effort, that means alot when you hang out in obscure corners of the internet.
“…the average joe will not install packages that are not available for his distro.”
Same people telling you this will scream in your face that Linux is about freedom.
What if Microsoft did the same, supported only users who install software from http://windowsmarketplace.com only?
Microsoft has thousands of software titles in its Windows Marketplace repository. All the good programs are in there.
Wait, didn’t these zealots blamed Microsoft for just offering Web browser? Yes, which Microsoft did before it was monopoly. Not after. Before, I repeat.
It is slavery when Microsoft forces its Web browser on users- Web browser which then can be used to download any software from anywhere and install it seamlessly in 99% of cases, it is freedom when users can not easily choose and install software other than provided by their distro vendor from vendor’s software repository.
Double standards, man, double standards. That is what zealots do.
I install Ubuntu 5.04. A few months later, AbiWord 3.0 arrives (just as an example). How do I install it? Ubuntu only provides updates for security and major bugfixes, so it won’t be in the repositories.
Think about what a newcomer could do here.
1) ‘compile’ the new AbiWord from ‘source’ using various command-line tools – a completely alien concept
2) Try to find compatible .deb packages all around the Net, some of them working, some not, some causing weird errors
3) ‘edit apt-sources’ and add a ‘backports repository’ etc. etc. etc.
In Windows, you grab the latest .exe and double-click. Can you see newcomers doing one of the above? It’s ghastly. Users should be able to install WHAT they want, WHEN they want, and not have to worry about distros and libraries and dependencies and updates and upgrades and versions.
We REALLY need a single, standard packaging and installation format before widespread Linux desktop deployment becomes a reality.
“Here’s a clue Mark. Go install Mandrake 7.0. Now try to install the latest Gnumeric on it. Oh wait, you’ll need a new Gtk. And Gnome libs. and atk, pango, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and a whole new glibc. And more and more…”
Here is a clue, Watcher. Try and install Word 2003 or Media Player 9 or IE7 (when it finally appears) or DirectX 9 or SP2 on your copy of Windows 98. Oh, wait, you’ll need a new version of Windows … windows XP. And a new computer. $$$$megabucks$$$.
Now do this for Linux (although why anyone would start with Mandrake 7.0 when Mandrake 10.1 or Mandriva is available for the same price – zero – is beyond me). When you install gnumeric, it will find all the dependencies you mention, automatically download them … and you will end up with Mandrake 10.1 (or whatever is the latest Mandrake) by default anyway.
Upgarding a Windows version is expensive and forced on you every few years (if you want to keep up with the latest security patches and other applications).
Upgrading a Linux version is automatic and costless.
Sorry Watcher, but it is you who is in serious need of a clue.
“Joe installs Linux in 2000. Five years on …”
Joe as-well-as Jane, I predict, will not be using the same computers five years on from now – much less – 2000.
Most users will not replace a dead power supply, or any other part, once the average one-to-three year support contract ends.
Most users will not be using 2000 in 2010. I am sure Shorthorn will be on the shelves in Wallyworld by then. Next to the lame spy-malware removal, antivirus, and firewall software.
Only old Linux geeks like myself will be using same systems with the same OS. I may upgrade my graphical desktop environment on occasion – but hey – it’s no more difficult than a win upgrade.
Slaves told they are free (a.k.a. U.S.S.R)
You feel free?, how when a average person mind is made up of thousands of different brands.tv commencials,etc taking up space in our mind. each time somebody needs toothpaste or soap they have to wrestle with all that useless different brands for each item they need. TV programs the society how to act and live when to cry when to feel happy and what to buy all that stuff controls us. ok if a person is really free try moving to a high class society or walk in a tv studio and demand a tv show or try getting a degree at harvard for free or even beter get the job you always wanted. the ones that get that sort of stuff are the ones that are really free.
“I simply can’t understand why would anybody would want to run an OS like linux when not all the distros are able to run all the apps that were made for linux”.
Bzzzzt, wrong.
All distros are able to run all the applications.
The reason why you can’t understand is that you didn’t realise you have it all wrong.
QUOTE: “My AmigaOS came with excellent manuals, the 1.3 version had even better/more intresting ones than my 2.0 did. Do I have to say they also smelled excellent? Oh, good old brand new amiga smell, how I miss you.”
Have to agree with that. What smell it was!
How are people like my mom supposed to find out how to start the firewall (pre sp2), configure the network, add a printer, burn a cd, change resolution and so on when there are no manual? Stupid x86 oses.”
Well, SuSE comes with an *excellent* manual, if you’re willing to pay for that. Remember, that after buying a copy of a commercial SuSE package you can install it on as many computers as you wish.
“Bzzzzt, wrong.
All distros are able to run all the applications. ”
Only if I dare to compile and pray that this works.
“Try and install Word 2003 or Media Player 9 or IE7 (when it finally appears) or DirectX 9 or SP2 on your copy of Windows 98. Oh, wait, you’ll need a new version of Windows … windows XP. And a new computer. $$$$megabucks$$$.”
That’s a 7 year-old OS. That’s understandable. But here we’re talking about Linux distros that are only a couple of years old! Really! Try installing Gnumeric on a two year-old distro. Almost impossible unless you’re willing to upgrade hundreds of components by hand, or the entire distro.
USERS DON’T WANT THAT. They want to be able to install the latest app with a double-click!
“although why anyone would start with Mandrake 7.0 when Mandrake 10.1 or Mandriva is available for the same price – zero – is beyond me”
It’s this attitude that keeps Linux off the desktop. Why the flip not? Why, if someone’s happy with their OS, should they have to upgrade the whole bloody thing just for one app? It’s laughable.
Why should you have to upgrade your car to run on one single road? Or your TV to watch one weather report? It doesn’t happen. Only in Linux land do you have to mess around and upgrade the whole OS just to run one app, because of the horrific dependency chains, lack of centralised packaging and excessive complications.
If a user is happy with his/her OS, he/she should NOT have to upgrade for one app. That highlights the big flaw in Linux software packaging. Plus, distros of today are far more demanding than distros of a few years ago – should a user have to change desktops too when he/she is forced into this upgrade? And lose some configuration settings?
It’s crazy!
“Upgarding a Windows version is expensive and forced on you every few years (if you want to keep up with the latest security patches and other applications).”
That’s a lie. Windows 2000 is still due to be supported with security fixes for many years to come. Not “every few years” as you put it.
“Upgrading a Linux version is automatic and costless.”
You must’ve had a very lucky time of things. I’ve upgraded loads of distros, and things break, things change, alterations have to be made by hand, software is newer and different, requirements are typically higher – it’s rarely automatic, and not ‘costless’ unless your time is worth little.
ATEOTD, all these things don’t address the real issue:
You can install Windows 2000, and simply double-click new software for years to come, without having to change your current apps or upgrade the OS.
You can’t do that with Linux. There’s no central packaging format, dependencies are a nightmare and just to get one new app running you have to upgrade hundreds of libraries, or your entire distro. If you’re happy with your current OS but missing one app, that’s terrible.
And Mark, keep on believing this isn’t a problem. Fine. But when Linux has only 5% market share by 2010, you might want to start considering this instead of putting your fingers in your ears and believing everyone has infinite time and patience.
And I suggest you TALK to REAL Linux newcomers. This problem is HUGE.
“You should have tested with a Linux distro of the same age of XP.”
It was the current copy of XP available to the reviewer in an office supply store. Seems like a fair choice to me.
Sorry to say but many distros may not have the needed files that the app my need in order to isntall or those needed files may be located in a different directories depending which distro is being use. the user would have to search the net for those
missing files or tell the app where to look for them within the distro before the user starts to compile the app from source code. if the user was lucky he/she found a package of the app for their distro yeah
right somebody actually compile every app for every distro i don’t think so. if everything goes well after a long long long compile the app is ready to get installed and if the package was done corectly it also gets installed if a pre-compile package was used. with windows is insert the cd click ok or next to a few questions after that it’s installed so the user can enjoy their new app not go to the forums asking why the app will not compile or installed.
there is nothing stopping linux software people from creating one click installers but i dont need one and dont care for one. heck i just use the zip file for phoenix browser, no install needed and works on every linux i have used…
BUt you make it sound harder than it is… I am running woody and have all sorts of new software installed, some with the old and new versions…. If i want/need newer programs then I easily pop in a cd of the latest distro and in most cases do the upgrade….
How hard is it to type in a line in sources and then apt get anything you want or synaptic click what you want…
“in Windows, you grab the latest .exe and double-click”
>> and then find out you need the latest java, and service pack such and such, and directx such and such and so forth…
everyone that tires to slam linux just ends up making a fool of themselves… they obviously havent used it much or enough to realize how easy it is! yes you have to learn a little but i assure you that you had to learn a little to use windows also.
someone stated XP runs on older hardware… yea ok, i have a 200 mhz machine that has 64mb of memory that i use fairly often – i doubt XP would be very happy on that in fact didnt they cut ISA support from XP? I also have a old 166mhz laptop with 48megs that is usable and I KNOW XP wont touch that!
If you dont have a clue about how to install software on linux then I am sure you see it as a problem and as being difficult…. my mother doesnt have a clue how to install software on windows and finds it difficult and troublsome
The funniest thing I have read here is everybody’s comments on a topic from NewsForge which states that it is “Operating Systems: Humor”
Some individuals actually got offended by this humorous article that was not intended to be taken seriously. So another OS bashing insued, so what? Everybody has their reasons for using the OS they are currently using, but it is still the admin of the system that makes it what it is, and security is a process, NOT a program, and to think any OS is better than another is because that person has not tried to get the most from that OS.
I have tried XP before for about 2 years, and 98, 95, 3.11, and 3.0 before that. I have been currently using Linux for the past 3 years. Is it because I think Linux is better? Yes, and No, but I do like the fact I can do more with Linux than XP would allow me to do. Besides, I was tired of fighting the virii, spyware and other crap. If Linux was preinstalled on 90% of desktops as M$ is, then Linux would be the easy favorite because it was what people first started using. But since most Linux users have already used some M$ OS at one point they tend not to go back for their own personal reasons, just like most Linux users. But some still dual-boot so they can still have the best of what they need from each OS.
My 2¢ worth I guess.
How hard is it to type in a line in sources and then apt get anything you want or synaptic click what you want…
Anything you want, huh? Well ….
I’ve brought this up before, and I’ve been seriously giving this more thought lately – my $1,000 distro challenge, wondering if people would consider taking me up on this?
Basically, it works like this:
I’ll search and find 20 Linux apps at random that I really want to try. Once I’ve decided on the 20 apps, I’ll put the names of the apps in a file, which will be encrypted, and made the available on the web. Then it’s up to the Linux community to decide which distro has the absolute best repository/installation process. Once you’ve decided on a distro (you won’t know which apps I’ve chosen ahead of time, but I’ll send you a password to decrypt the file with the 20 app names in it after the experiment has begun), you let me know which one it is and I’ll try installing the 20 apps I picked beforehand, using whatever method/repository you choose. If I can install all 20 of them without the installation barfing or having to do something dumb like recompile the kernel, I’ll donate $1,000 to whatever distro is chosen.
RULES:
1. Apps must be the latest *stable* version. (Usually, with open source apps, there are two versions available – a stable and a development version. There will be no installing apps that are a year out of date bullshit)
2. A few minor deviations will be allowed from the standard installation process (such as right clic/install instead of double click, or whatever). But if I’m using some GUI frontend and then have to dip to the command-line for something, it’s over. If you want to present me with a command-line installation tool, that is fine … as long as the command(s) you give me work across the board. If configure/make/make install works for all 20 apps, that definitely counts. I just want something that’s fairy consistant – I don’t really care how it works.
3. The reason why the file with 20 apps will be encrypted and made available before I know what the distro will be is so that I can’t ‘cheat’ by picking a distro that I know is incompatable with whatever distro you choose. Likewise, you can’t pick a distro based on the apps I’ve chosen either. Remember, we’re testing the real-world prowess of the package manager, so it needs to be random.
4. I can tell you now that a few apps have already been chosen. One of them will be based around a specific piece of hardware that I use daily so Linux’s hardware detection prowess will also be on display as well. I already know this device works in Linux, because there are people using it, though I have no idea how hard it is to get running. The hardware device I refer to isn’t detected natively in Windows, but works after downloading the driver via Windows update.
My turn to provoke things 😉
I’ll take XP any day over Linux, or Win98SE, my previous favorite OS.
Speaking of Win98SE, I upgraded my mother-in-law from that to XP, on a system with a whopping 64MB of RAM, lol — and it ALL worked. She then went to Fry’s, her decision, and got 256MB of RAM and totally loves the upgrade.
Note that I didn’t say I had to download drivers, blah, blah, blah. The only app. that needed an update was CompuServe 2000, LOL. CIS sent a new CD, installed it, done.
In case it seems I am not a techie, I’ve bought 14 computers to date, with my own scratch, I’ve supported several hundred in various work environments and I am a major user at home. And my home machines run? XP on all of them. [Actually I have one running 98SE so I can run MAME games, lol]
What is so humorous about this thread is not the author original B.S. but that 90% of those commenting took his remarks seriously.
In the real world, these days, we buy NEW computers that are remarkably cheap — often cheaper than just buying a new high-end video card! — and we get XP installed and running perfectly ALREADY. We then install 5 year old versions of CuteFTP, Eudora and Paint Shop Pro v6, etc. and they all work fine — no driver downloads, no DLL “heck”, etc. etc. The one I’m typing on came with SP2, a gig of ram and a smoking processor, and I think it was cheaper than a dinner for two. And with DOS I have all the command-line I need, and access to my preferred word processor — Word v5 for DOS!
There is only ONE real Linux issue — usability. Linux is highly UNusable. XP is the easiest to use of all OSes. And Apple OSes (pre-X) are 25-year-old designs only a true fanatic could love — with X they are more XP-like.
Boy, this sure has been fun! I got a good laugh out of that thing. Oh, to Floyd, good for you! I’ll keep my SuSE Linux 9.3 Pro, the most USABLE OS I have ever had….and the most stable, and, I might add pretty damn eazy as well. Don’t use Windows much anymore….just now USable enough…
“Here is a clue, Watcher. Try and install Word 2003 or Media Player 9 or IE7 (when it finally appears) or DirectX 9 or SP2 on your copy of Windows 98. Oh, wait, you’ll need a new version of Windows … windows XP. And a new computer. $$$$megabucks$$$. ”
I’m typing this on my laptop with ie 6 on xp sp2 and have office 2k3 and solid edge 16 installed. not to mention that it has a win98 license-sticker on it. your point was?
and you forget that win98 and xp are completely different architectures. ever tried to install koffice and firefox on freedos?
Here is a clue, Watcher. Try and install Word 2003 or Media Player 9 or IE7 (when it finally appears) or DirectX 9 or SP2 on your copy of Windows 98. Oh, wait, you’ll need a new version of Windows … windows XP. And a new computer. $$$$megabucks$$$.
Here is a clue, mark. Word 2003 works. WMP9 works. DirectX 9 works. SP2 doesn’t, but it doesn’t matter since we’re not even talking of the same OS architecture. IE7 won’t, but I think it’s okay since Windows 98 is over 7 years old. Firefox won’t probably work on your 7-years-old Redhat Linux.
Now try to install the lastest Linux distribution on your 7-years-old computer. Hope you don’t mind swapping.
I like Linux but I know its strengths and its weaknesses and I don’t hesitate to point them out. The only way to get a better OS is by doing this, not by assuming you’re the best (like Microsoft did until recently). Things like GNOME claiming they are better than XP on usability when they don’t even have a goddamn menu editor is just not the bright thing to do, IMO.
The fact that it is so easy for spyware and viruses to be installed on a Windows computer is a testament to how user friendly it is to install software compared to Linux.
Windows ease of use – 1
Linux ease of use – 0
!!!!!
The fact that it is so easy for spyware and viruses to be installed on a Windows computer is a testament to how user friendly it is to install software compared to Linux.
What if I don’t want spyware and viruses?
I think there is a difference between user-freindly and exploit-freindly… I am not too sure though* ummm* hmm*
All I know is on one of my machines at home, I have an absoluteely no-name LCD screen, its the wal-mart brand iLo and it works fine when installing XP, need MS Office to print to PDF, try PDF Creator. Most of the serious and usable OSS software out there has a Windows version available for it. This came off more like the writer is either misinformed or that it was a cheap attempt at humor. If the article is meant as a joke, then hahaha. If he was serious, I suggest he do some research before he tries next time.
When reading your posts I apply a standard I also find useful when reading tabloid newspapers (note: in the English sense, not the American). If it includes the phrase ‘these people’, it is likely a) bigoted and b) full of crap. Hasn’t failed me yet.
I’m not sure that this illustrates a flaw in Windows so much as it illustrates the need for some modern equivalent of NE2k compability. Network cards are pretty generic in this day and age, and considering how basic a requirement Internet connectivity is, there really should be a default NIC driver that supports at least the basic functionality of most cards. Of course, we’ll probably see the problem solved by something like EFI/OpenFirmware before NIC manufacturers agree on a standard.
Theres a title I never thought I see here.
That won’t work well automatically as it would under windows – chances are high that the installer won’t run because of a missing lib or a wrong version.
uh thats why you would wrap all that up in one package…
there is already a few clicky installer packages and as I said I use phoenix browser and it is simply a zip file, unzip and make a shortcut and away you go….
hmmm…. how about this…….
you keep your money
I use debian or a debian based distro
you tell me what software you want and that is at least fairly common
I create a cd that has the software on it and has a nice webpage type front end but the backend is debians apt and/or dpkg then all you do is click the link on the installer and it installs the software and places a nice shortcut on your desktop
gimme the list and I will go to work
oh, i see even command line is okay…. hmmm… i would say debian sarge would do the trick then! How about instead of making it a specific software package you change that to a category of software with your requirements for the software. I mean you could do the linux equivilent of asking me to install office2003 on a win98 system…it just wont work
—interesting challenge tho—
Distro repositories are not the answer, but continue to believe what you’ve been told is the Linux way and that you should accept.
Nobody told me anything, Lumbergh. I’m a self-taught Linux user, coming from the Windows world, and right away I understood that repositories are a great idea. No longer do I have to hunt down a specific program on the Internet! And those apps I needed which weren’t in the repositories had their own graphic installers.
Stop implying that those who like the Linux way of doing things have somehow been brainwashed. I know you have a problem not insulting those you disagree with, but it’s really become annoying.
Are repositories the final answer? Of course not, that’s why there are alternatives (the Loki installer, Autopackage, Arkollon, etc.). But they do provide a superior solution to having to search for an app online, downloading it, then having to go through the steps of the graphical install.
Ok Kreskin, whatever you say. I’ll be sure to consult you the next time I need to know what the “next big thing is”. Haha.
Have YOU seen the demos, Lumbergh? Did you know that, during the time of E3, there was a private demo of a server running Linux on 2 Cell processors, and that the performance blew away anything that Intel/AMD can possibly deliver in the next couple of years?
When personal computing first started in the 70s, I immediately understood that this would be huge. When I first tried the Lisa, I understood that the GUI would be huge. When I first tried an IMB PC, I knew it would be huge. When I sent my first e-mail, around 1990, I knew the Internet would be huge. I’ve never been wrong about new tech, so choose to disregard it if you want, you’ll only miss the boat.
That sounds an awful lot like Linspire.
XP would run similar to a *nix once you shut off the pretties (crayola). I’m on a 500 K6-2 that I had running XP for a long time, and it ran pretty well. It’s running Ubuntu now and it runs pretty similarly (except that my window controls don’t lock up). Btw, a 500 K6-2 is about equivalent to a 333 PII.
Yesterday, I went to CompUSA and picked up a WINTV PVR 150 card for my dual boot XP – PCLinuxOS computer.
Should have no problems, RIGHT??? I have Windows XP. I have this XP compatible WINTV PVR 150 card. Should be no issues. RIGHT??
WRONG.
Installation was fine. I try is out and cool it works.
I reboot
XP Crashes.
I was up until 2AM. Still not working.
I booted into PCLinuxOS with no issue. I went into Control Center to see if it found it. It did. Now I do need to configure MythTV to really see if Linux found it correctly but my point in all of this is that there’s this impression from people that Windows is so much easier to use. Easier to install hardware.
I see windows users on linux forums complaining all the time about their attempts to try linux. Reality is Windows really isn’t any better at it. When I built my dual boot box, I decided to try a SATA hard drive out. XP couldn’t even find it. I ended up having to download something (can’t remember)in order to TRICK XP to think I had a SCSI drive and only them would the XP installation.
Reality is that anytime you add any piece of hardware to your desktop that has any kind of advanced functionality to it, you’re going to end up having to tweak it somehow. Windows or Linux, it doesn’t matter.
it’s not about the popular apps it’s about the little apps like gnome-launch-box so far as i know only foresight linux (probably specifix as well then) has a package for it.
There’s Ubuntu package for it. I’m pretty sure there’s a Mandriva package for it as well.
Guys, let it go. This issue is a non-issue: I’ve never heard a Linux user complain that a package he really needed was not available to his distro. And what if it’s not the latest and greatest? In a couple of weeks, it will added to the repository (maybe only a couple of days if it’s a bleeding-edge distro).
It’s quite simple: if you just want things to work simply, stay with stable distros and wait for the next update. Most people are like that: they don’t want to get the latest version if the version they use works. If you’re a computer geek (like me) who likes trying out new apps, use a bleeding-edge distro and learn to compile for those rare apps that may not be available.
Anyway, if that’s the biggest complain anti-Linux zealots have, then it tells me that Linux has progressed a lot indeed!
linspire would be a good choice but often linspire doesnt work as well as linspire would have you believe…
trust me, i would be the last person to recommend linspire but if it worked as well as they like to claim it does then I might could at least bring myself to believe that it may be the solution for some people new to linux…
i did this one other time and have thought about trying to revive it, writing simple scripts with a html frontend that shows a screenshot of the program and a description and “click here to install” linky… fairly simple stuff using apt and dpkg of course that means you have to debian or debian based distro but what I had hoped to do was use a certain distro and make sure I package only software that would work for that one distro that I give out along with my “one clicky” installer… Did that make any sense? Oh and it wold be on a cd so you would always have it, connected to the net or not….
Anyone want to start a project?
the one click linky thingy installer for debian sarge
Almost impossible unless you’re willing to upgrade hundreds of components by hand, or the entire distro.
You realize the entire process is automated, right? But if they’re so gung ho about getting new apps, wouldn’t they also want to upgrade your system? Either they like the way things are, or they don’t. Again, this is a highly hypothetical situation that isn’t a real problem when you look at real-world situations.
And I suggest you TALK to REAL Linux newcomers. This problem is HUGE.
I talk to Linux newcomers all the time. I was a Linux newcomer four years ago. And you know what? No one ever complained about that specific issue. No one. Not a single person. Sure, there were other complaints – no OS is perfect. But this one wasn’t even on the list. Well, except from anti-Linux posters spreading their FUD on websites. So I suggest YOU talk to REAL Linux newcomers. You’ll soon discover that the problem is non-existant.
whats so special about gnome lauch box? i am lost