You can talk all you want about how Mactels aren’t going to be that wonderful, but if you want to see many enterprise Linux desktops around in 2007, start making it happen says Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols.
Linux Desktop Must Work to Head Off Straying Users
About The Author
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Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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No I havn’t RTFA, and I’m not going to. This guy, and a lot of other people seems to have *extrodinary* hard to understand that Linux and Mac/OSX doesn’t live in the same space. One is a functional, cheap, open soloution on cheap hardware, the other one is closed, only available on hardware with a premium price-tag. Bluntly put: Anyone who thinks OSX is going to rule the world, keep dreaming.
Hi Anonymous, What you are saying make sence. I’m using Linux since 1998 and I migrated to 100% linux since 2001 and ever since that I’ve not paid a penny for my Softwares and I’ve not thrown my old P200 64 MB Ram machine! and Still using it with the latest 2GHZ machine.
Every time I used to see my boss working on Mac OS, I used to feel I should have that OS and machine, due to the GUI at the same time when you compair it with the money that we have to spent for that feel and GUI it really doesnt make sence. I feel I’m happy with linux! I just feel
why Linux UI is miles away! I still cannot see Video CD’s playing well on Linux they core dump often even after upgrading hardware and using latest fedora core!
Time for Linux gurus to make things more stable. Every time i see people playing same video CDs on windows in medial player I wonder how strong and powerful software MS has made that works almost on every computer with out a crash!
Linux gurus are you listening to me?
Hi Anonymous, What you are saying make sence. I’m using Linux since 1998 and I migrated to 100% linux since 2001 and ever since that I’ve not paid a penny for my Softwares and I’ve not thrown my old P200 64 MB Ram machine! and Still using it with the latest 2GHZ machine.
Every time I used to see my boss working on Mac OS, I used to feel I should have that OS and machine, due to the GUI at the same time when you compair it with the money that we have to spent for that feel and GUI it really doesnt make sence. I feel I’m happy with linux! I just feel
why Linux UI is miles away! I still cannot see Video CD’s playing well on Linux they core dump often even after upgrading hardware and using latest fedora core!
Time for Linux gurus to make things more stable. Every time i see people playing same video CDs on windows in medial player I wonder how strong and powerful software MS has made that works almost on every computer with out a crash!
Linux gurus are you listening to me?
Stop it with the stupid “LINUX IS DOOMED” articles. The Mac switch doesn’t change ANYTHING to the end user when it comes to the barrier of switching to Mac. PPCMac->Need new hardware, locked in; x86Mac->Need new hardware, locked in. NOTHING IS DIFFERENT.
I think it would be great if OSX for Intel did take off because I think that would be the shot in the arm that Linux on the desktop needs. Right now the biggest selling point that the Linux faithful have when it comes to the desktop is they say “It’s not Windows, no more virii, spyware, etc.”. If OSX took off Linux would actually have to do something to compete because the whole “It’s not Windows, no more virii, spyware, etc.” argument also applies to OSX.
I agree, and besides, my Linux desktop already IS a wonderful desktop operating system. I’m using it all around the house and on my server as well…low cost, completely reliable, and the desktop enviroments (several of them) are great!
He makes SOME valid point…one of which is that maybe SOME former Windows users will go to the Mac instead of Linux, but I think that was always true. Linux is just “different” and now it’s about the only OS I feel really comfortable in. Sure, it might not be for everyone, but I like the flexability , low cost and reliability
The author expresses fears that conflict with each other.
Let’s say that Apple uses the new Intel features to lock its boxes, designing them so that they will only boot Mac OS X or other authorized, cryptographically signed OSes. Those OSes would then rigorously enforce DRM rules on music, video, what have you. But then Intel-based Macs will continue to have a price premium, because there will still be a hardware monopoly, and Apple won’t get customers who aren’t willing to pay the extra money.
If apple uses proprietary hardware, its always going to be behind everything else. if apple decides to be a software company. They could concievably kick microsoft’s face in practically overnight.
linux will still eventually win. it does need to get better. but its really quite good as a desktop system right now. its what i use.
The mac or windows OS will never be free. linux will outpace them, while being free.
Why is 2007 some magic date?
I just don’t see huge shifts in desktop usage marketshare. Open Unix and OSX will probably continue to nibble at Windows overwhelming marketshare, but neither (in their current forms) will cause some huge shift in numbers overnight.
As an” alternative” OS user (BEOS, Amiga, SkyOS) I love this move from Apple! . Now we finally can have some competition on the X86 platform!
The “war” between Windows and Linux user has run for a long time, and finally Linux community may realize how great an OS can be running on the X86 platform.
Linux is to fragmented and outdated, Hello? X Windows year 2005? Monolithic kernel year 2005?
Now it’s time for a real multithreading OS. I’l hope that Apple can make it happen.
I don’t know about his point on device drivers, because he doesn’t give any examples of unsupported hardware. Last time I checked, Windows supports far less hardware out-of-the-box than the vanilla Linux kernel does. I’m not talking about achitecture support either. Simple things like network cards, sound cards, ACPI. You know, the stuff you need to install from 3rd party CDs after you install windows. To be fair, some hardware is supported better in Windows, albeit not out of the box. Printers come to mind. But there are likewise some areas where Linux desktops outshine windows: my mom’s new Canon digital camera automatically imported its pictures into gThumb before I could even fire up a browser to see how to get it to work.
I’m not saying it would be hard for me to find hardware that isn’t supported in Linux, but it’s a lot harder than it used to be. Winmodems even work these days.
And I’ve even got Lotus Notes running on wine! I don’t understand the press this week. As much as I try to look at this Apple thing from their perspective, I can’t see how Apple is any better off and how Linux is screwed. Where is the sudden incentive for Mac holdouts to finally “switch” now that they run Intel processors? There will be no cost benefit (Yonah and Conroe will be roughly 3 times the die area compared to G5), very little additional application portability (its still BSD syscalls), and some possible loss of 3rd party app support (what about Quark?). They’re ditching Altivec for the relatively inferior SSE3 and gaining a lot of decode overhead. And this is assuming they skip the end of Netburst and wait for Banias/Dothan to make their transition to EM64T and 65nm in Q3/4 ’06.
The saving grace for Apple is their OS, which is nice on the desktop but in many cases 3-5x slower than Linux on the same hardware in server applications, expecially as a web and database server. Ask Sybase and Oracle about supporting XServe and they will show you the clumps of hair they ripped from their scalps trying to get “acceptable” threading performance on OSX Server.
There are two key pieces of the puzzle missing to gain desktop performance parity with OSX, and these are a) closing the performance gap between graphics driver implementations (particularly ATI, but NVIDIA also), and b) finish GLX so that OpenGL and Cairo stop sucking balls. If you’ve seen any of those ridiculous Luminosity demos, you know how close the “rest” of the desktop stack is to outshining Aqua.
The only firm this anything to lose here is Microsoft. Intel is pissed at them for failing to drive their revenue stream. The master plan involved Longhorn’s beefy desktop experience driving demand for what would become Prescott. I bet those MS comments on AMD “leading the way in 64-bit technology” were fueled by the realization that they are running out of hardware allies.
By the way, you guys should keep your eyes and ears open for GPLed Linux kernel extensions for the Cell processor. It runs, it works, and it’s fully debuggable. I seen it. I flew over Mt. St. Helens in spectacular 3D (controlled by joystick), rendered realtime at 720p, at 60 fps with no graphics processor (straight to linux framebuffer). The same application on dual 2GHz G5s runs at 0.6 fps. Its hard to be excited about an Tiger running on a dual core Pentium M in light when there are so much cooler things in the pipeline.
Ok, Apple’s going with Intel cpus. Why does this guy assume it’s also going to be a PC too? Is the chip even going to be x86 ISA compatible?
The author suggests that competition between OS X and Linux on Intel will hurt Linux? I thought competition was supposed to help everyone involved?
Although, he does make a good point about device drivers. However, I think Linux device drivers are getting better faster than ever.
Personally, I think that once Longhorn goes gold, Windows/MS will leave both Linux and Apple in the dust.
All right, let’s explain this again – and I’m typing very slowly so that everyone can read it
The fact is, Apple is going Intel. Even as of today, Apple Macs use 90% PC hardware, except for the CPU. Replacing it with an Intel chip will make Macs pretty much the same as every other PC. Another fact is: Even if Apple will do their best to keep their platform closed, there will be coders that will be able to unlock whatever lock Apple will use on their boxes, and history shows these coders could always be found. DVD/CD copy protection? Hacked. Playstation regional and copy protection? Hacked. Thousands of software copy protections? Hacked. You get the picture. And for the desktop world, the obvious consequence is: If you don’t want to use Windows, you will be able to use OSX on your (non-)Apple PC, either legally or in some shade of grey. And if you don’t want to use Linux, you very probably will go OSX.
This doesn’t apply to the server world though – Linux has a good installed base there (which it merits IMHO) and I don’t see any good reason to switch to any form of OSX there. But as for the desktop, I agree with the author and I think it’s high time Linux pulls its act together.
“MacTels” are going to be propriatary platforms with closed hardware and closed software. People like “Vaughan-Nichols” never seem to acknowledge that gnu/Linux’s biggest advantage is that it is unemcoumbered by all the trappings of propriatary software.
The only system that will ever really beat gnu/linux is another free platform that is technically superior. Apple doesn’t stand any more a chance than Microsoft.
i thought he had some good points….
of course until we know more about what type of mactel they are planning then it is all useless speculation
I am just HOPING that apple stock takes a nose dive and I am in a better position to buy it up so I can cash in when it climbs back up….
Very well said.
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20050609.html
I agree with this article.
Parts of this simply did not make sense: moving to Intel means you have access to more hardware like webcams and mice. Huh? The problem lies in device drivers, not processors. Other parts of the article didn’t make much sense either.
Linux is not doomed to die by the sword of OSX on Intel. It’s not even doomed to slow down to a crawl, or even going to go over a speed bump. From the point of view of a current Linux or Windows user, they STILL need to buy a new computer before they can use OSX.
There are a few groups here.
1. Those using a legit copy of Windows.
2. Those using an illegal copy of Windows.
3. Those using Linux.
Group one still needs to buy the hardware, nothing has changed for them in this area. This is a big hurdle for many potential switchers, and when you have the option of switching to a Free OS, it makes paying out money for a new computer seem rediculous.
Group two likely won’t be buying the hardware to run OSX, they’ll just get the pirated version (which may or may not ever be released) that works on their current computer. Do these people care about Linux? Maybe, maybe not. Like me, these people might be thinking of quiting their ‘bad habit’ of using pirated software (like Photoshop) and replacing it with Free, legitimate, software (like the Gimp). If they are like that, they won’t be pirating OSX. If they aren’t switching for those reasons, then maybe they will switch to OSX and not to Linux, but they weren’t even considering switching to Linux in the first place. These are not ‘lost switches’ because we never had them!
Group three is likely using Linux for three reasons. Either because it is Free, free, or works better than Windows for them. Are they switching to OSX? Depends on how much money they want to spend, or whether they are willing to pirate OSX. Only a small sub-group of this third group are likely to switch to OSX. Not even a blip on the radar.
Answer? ANYBODY PREDICTING DOOM AND GLOOM FOR LINUX IS RETARDED.
I understand the point being made about how Apple is behind in the realm of drivers for the Intel (an obvious and needless point to make), but saying that “Linux still has big driver problems” is not exactly accurate today.
Other than the author made the near fatal mistake of attacking Linux folks (they’re easily irked off at the first sign of criticism, even if done in humor)…ooops…apparently he missed the memo on how linux fanboys will react.
The article offers up an interesting perspective and the authors opinions and some history….that’s about all it worth, food for thought.
The simple unavoidable fact is no one, at this time, can say for sure how the Apple/Intel chaos of the moment will shape the future, all anyone can do is guess, at best a semi-educated guess. For days now we’ve seen both sides of the arguement fanning the flames and let’s face it, that’s about all their doing is fanning flames.
Apple will need to execute this dangerous fork in the road very carefully in the comming months/years. One thing I don’t see mentioned much is the topic of DRM….might want to take a close look at the Pentium D and ask yourself do you want that under the hood of your next PC/Laptop (Mac or otherwise).
No one knows right now where this road will lead, we’ll just have to set back and watch.
FWIW, my 2cents worth, I think Apple made a bad choice and they will need to execute flawlessly or it may turn into the biggest screwup they ever pulled off. Linux folks need to watch closely and act accordingly if they want to succede on the desktop in a big way, Apple just rewrote the rules of the game, how much…we’ll we could debate that topic all day and end up in the same place.
Have a great weekend!
JT
I cannot believe how many pundits have crawled out of the woodwork on this one. Just because Apple decide to change their chip does not mean that the market profile for desktop or server software will change one iota. Apple will still sell OSX to run on Mac only. Despite this guy supporting the breach of copyright licenses to try to force Apple to relent from this position, they haven’t for 25 odd years, and I can’t see them starting now.
As for linux users, give me a break. I own a mac running OSX, and to be frank I use it about 1/50th of the time I use my linux desktops. The reason – once you get past the flashy stuff, there’s no substance. Yes, it’s got unix underneath, but so what – so’s linux, and it’s much easier to use. Yes, it’s got a lot of nice applications – but so what, I can’t afford any of them. Yes it’s got iLife, but I find these applications difficult to use (yes that’s what I said), and aren’t as easy to use, flexible or quick to create content as the applications I use on linux such as MainActor, Digikam, and DVDLab-Pro. And multi-media file formats are a nightmare. It forces you to use certain formats, and if you don’t, you’re stuffed. I just find the whole thing very frustrating. Also, I can get the flashy stuff on linux now – shadows, transparency, and a crazy zooming docker from kxdocker – which by the way is far more functional than the OSX dock application.
Overall, I regret my Mac purchase – I’ve basically wasted my money, because I just don’t use it. Unfortunately, I believed the hype “a unix for the masses”. This could be true, but I’m not the masses, I’m a linux user, and I’m not a “switcher”. I don’t like being patronised by my computer, and Mac patronises me – worse than windows.
Matt
Mac OS X mated Unix with a very easy to use interface that just works. Linux hasn’t come to that yet and frankly i don’t see that changing for years to come. If i can have a powerful OS and Unix too on the dekstop my choice will be Mac OS X
[Below is about desktops not servers]
Wouldn’t it be nice?
Have a vote and make the winner the default DE on every Linux desktop targeted distro. I would really like this to happen. For one it would make development easier.
Of course when you install whatever distro, you could choose an alternate DE, but the default DE is also loaded for application compability and remains behind the scene. For special cases, like embedded devices it would be better to use an alternate DE.
I like MacOS X since it has one DE and it’s a very good DE.
Apple is litigious. I have no doubt that someone will make OS X run on non-Apple x86’s but I bet Apple will make it difficult to do so with violating the DMCA.
And people keep talking about OS X running Windows apps better than ever but forget that other x86 operating systems will now be able to run Mac apps.
Finally, Transitive may be good but running PPC/OS X apps on x86/OS X is going to be a whole lot more painful than running PPC/OS 9 apps on PPC/OS X was. It also doesn’t matter how long Apple is going to support PPC hardware because developers will prefer to support the majority just as they did with BeOS.
The real problem is that these guys lack reasoning skills. These guys are going on emotion alone, they love apple as it is some sort of underdog to them. They know Apple isn’t going to make a dent in Ms marketshare so they are hyping and hoping that it can make a dent in Linux. Unfoutnatly for them their efforts will come to naught.
…but mainly because I can’t stand this guy. Let’s see,
the Mac operating system on Intel poses a real threat to the future of the Linux desktop on Intel. yup, like any OS poses a threat to any other OS out there. Macos is a bigger threat then just any, but it won’t battle as much with linux as with windows, since it will be MS who will fight them the most, since Apple raising market share means MS loosing it. Money talks.
on anything except its own branded hardware. Yes, that appears to be what Apple is planning, but I don’t think it’ll be able to pull it off Well, if they don’t give you drivers, then you won’t have drivers.
I can easily imagine public flame wars with the open-source community that Apple can’t afford. Well, being locked to specific hardware hasn’t caused unaffordable flame wars in the past.
It’s just that Macs have even farther. Macs support only a very limited range of hardware. There are cases when that can be a benefit. As they have proven in the last decades.
Would someone please send these people in their basements the memo from a few years ago that Linux is a business operating system and not just a hobby? It’s a businness OS and a real hobby OS, and that at the same time ! And this is something which neither windows nor macos can fully be, since neither are FOSS.
I had really hoped that the Linux desktop could scoop up a lot of those users. Now, unless things change, I see them going to Mac OS instead. And that means that some of the Windows users will become Macos users. That doesn’t necessarily mean Linux will loose from its user base, at least not in a higher rate than it gains and looses now. Estimating loss of some possible future users is like when RIAA/MPAA estimates losses from albums/film they never sold, so they never could’ve guessed how much they would’ve gathered from those sales. I’m not pessimistic here. Windows , macos and linux will loose and gain users all the time. They do _not_ cover entirely the same areas.
the time is now to get serious about creating an outstanding Linux desktop operating system If someone doesn’t live underground, can notice that enourmous efforts have been made towards that goal recently. It’s not a goal everyone wants, but there can exist a fully lame-friendly desktop distro family besides a heavy powerfull development family since we are talking about linux here, the best FOSS operating system there is.
Given that he thinks mice might have driver problems, (USB mice all use the same driver) I’m going to pretty much discount anything he says.
(Yes, this is a strawman argument)
1. Using legit Windows
2. Using illegal Windows
3. Using Linux.
Subgroups:
3a. Using Linux because it’s Free-speech;
3b. Using Linux because it’s free-beer;
3c. Using Linux because Windows wasn’t working;
3d. Using Linux because OSX had high barrier of entry.
1. Still will pay the money for hardware, he won’t be pirating it. This one is a non-issue for Linux since the barrier to entry for using OSX is just as high now as it was with PPC processors.
2. Doesn’t care about Linux, they’ll just pirate OSX instead of Windows. Doesn’t matter to Linux advancement.
3a. Doesn’t care about OSX anyway.
3b. Still needs to pay, and because he is using Linux instead of pirating Windows, it’s likely he won’t be pirating OSX. 3c. Things haven’t changed for this one, just like group 1. They still need to pay. 3d. Same as 3c and 1.
In summary, there is nothing different now as there was before this announcement. Nothing has changed. STOP SPELLING DOOM AND GLOOM FOR LINUX.
Why so many articles in deence of poor, er, intel-macs?
I mean, if you is so much sure intel macs will rule and route linux, why tell about that over and over again?
linux has a principial strength – it is free. it is very cheap in terms of upkeep – if free app climbed into some area it is not going to leave – it can’t be out of business, it can’t go bankrupt, it does not require a lot of devs and monye to live happily.
So for now, if a lot of people deciede to try mac instead of windows, what would we lose? A bunch of people who come into irc channel, ask a clueless question, and leave in 20 seconds, before anyone dares to answer? Very sensible loss, oh dear.
We’re not going to lose any devs – people who will choose mac over linux (because it’s ‘betta, fasta and k00la’, not because weighted comparation), not caring about freeness, are not going to be good OSS devs anyway.
Even as of today, Apple Macs use 90% PC hardware, except for the CPU. Replacing it with an Intel chip will make Macs pretty much the same as every other PC.
In some way that is true, since it’s only so many ways to connect a processor to ram, PCI and SCSI/IDE/SATA buses. But it’s not as simple as that, if it had been the case we would have seen lots of Mac clones using PowerPC already. Since by your logic it would only have been stock PC hardware with socket for PowerPC processors. Like the PegasosPCC motherboards, who do not run MacOS X btw. One of the biggest reasons for this are spelled BIOS.
If you against all that actually make MacOS run on stock PC hardware, it will only run on hardware with the same graphic, ethernet, SCSI/IDE/SATA, USB, FireWire chips as the Mactel. For all other hardware you have to create your own drivers whitout Apples help. If Apple chooses ATI or Intel for it’s GPU, it will leave all NVidia PCs unusable until someone develops a driver. Feel free to ask the XFree developers how easy and fast it can be done.
“There’s no question that Linux still has a long, long way to go with device drivers. ”
He speaks with such authority with no evidence, surely he must be Linus Torvalds or Andrew Morton to carry such weight that there can be no questioning his opinion.
“Would someone please send these people in their basements the memo from a few years ago that Linux is a business operating system and not just a hobby?”
Would someone please send you a memo: Lots of those applications are still written be people in their basements. How insulting.
”
Desktops & Notebooks Header
Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols
Linux Desktop Must Work to Head Off Straying Users
By Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols
June 8, 2005
Opinion: You can talk all you want about how Mactels aren’t going to be that wonderful, but if you want to see many enterprise Linux desktops around in 2007, start making it happen.
21 comments posted
Add your opinion
I’ve been flooded by e-mails and phone calls from people giving me their two cents on how they think the future of desktop computing is going to turn out now that Apple is moving Mac OS to the Intel platform.
I had a feeling this might happen when I opined that the Mac operating system on Intel poses a real threat to the future of the Linux desktop on Intel. Since I can’t write to everyone, here are my responses to some of the most popular comments.
One of the most common themes I’ve been hearing is that Apple will not—will not, I tell you!—be letting its precious operating system ship on anything except its own branded hardware.
Yes, that appears to be what Apple is planning, but I don’t think it’ll be able to pull it off.
The Intel-based PC architecture is an open one. How is Apple going to keep people from installing Mac OS on non-Mac PCs? Proprietary firmware? A BIOS, a la Phoenix Technologies’ TrustedCore, which can enforce DRM (digital rights management)? Pick a method and I foresee hackers cheerfully breaking it.
In addition, open-source programmers are working against proprietary BIOS. While AMD has backed open BIOS, Intel has been fighting the Free Software Foundation on this issue.
eWEEK.com Special Report: Apple’s Switch to Intel
This has been a slow-burning fire, but if Apple does indeed try to lock its operating system with an Intel-based proprietary hardware configuration, I can easily imagine public flame wars with the open-source community that Apple can’t afford.
I see two possibilities here. The first is that Apple sticks to its guns. In this case, the result will be a gray market in non-Apple-Mac-OS PCs, in which Apple eventually gives up and, at the least, licenses Mac OS to a few select hardware OEMs. Anyone want a Mac OS HP Pavilion? How about a Sony Vaio Mactel?
Or, Apple sees this as a battle they can’t win, and does all of the above without a fight.
I’ve also had people tell me that they don’t think Apple will have as much trouble with device drivers as Linux has, either because Apple will use only a small subset of all the possible equipment you can stick on a PC, or because Apple will be able to get better deals from hardware vendors.
There’s no question that Linux still has a long, long way to go with device drivers. It’s just that Macs have even farther. Macs support only a very limited range of hardware.
In the past, if the equipment wasn’t built by Apple, or had its making overseen by Apple, the odds were the device wouldn’t work on a Mac. Linux still has big driver problems. Mac OS on Intel will have enormous, but conquerable, driver problems.
On Intel designs, Apple will have to contend with a much wider variety of external equipment. From Webcams to scanners to, heck, even mice, Apple will have to deal with tens of thousands of new devices. Even if “Mactels” turn out to be hermetically sealed boxes, Apple and friends are going to be spending a lot of time working on device drivers. And, lest we forget, historically, Apple hasn’t gotten along well with equipment vendors.
eWEEK Special Report: Office Politics
On the flip side, I’ve gotten messages saying that Apple can’t possibly be successful running Mac OS on Intel.
What part of the Jobs’ keynote speech did they not hear?
PointerRead more here about Apple’s announcement regarding the switch to Intel processors.
It must have been the part where he said that Apple has had Mac OS running on Intel chips as well as PowerPC for the last five years.
It’s not perfect yet, but Apple isn’t even shipping the first ones until 2006. By then, I expect—and so do the 500,000 or so developers that Apple claims—the Mac OS will be doing just fine on the Intel platform.
I’ve also been hearing from a lot of people who insist that it doesn’t matter what Apple does, since Linux will survive no matter what the companies do. Would someone please send these people in their basements the memo from a few years ago that Linux is a business operating system and not just a hobby?
In a somewhat similar vein, I’ve been told that Mac OS won’t pull in Linux desktop users. Well, probably not, but I’m not worried about them.
It’s all those Windows users who could come over to Linux as they finally get sick and tired of Windows’ endless security problems and a lamed, late Longhorn. I had really hoped that the Linux desktop could scoop up a lot of those users. Now, unless things change, I see them going to Mac OS instead.
One reason why they might do so is that I predict that between WINE, CodeWeaver’s CrossOver Office and Intel’s Virtualization Technology, I see many Windows applications running natively on Mac OS on Intel.”
I believe DirectX games are the only thing with any advantage. I don’t think there’s anything else Microsoft ports to OS X (Word uses OS X native widgets right?).
All these guys forget one of the biggest questions:
Will Apple survive this switch?
This guy has to be retarded if he really believes anything he’s said.
He says the Intel Mac running only on Apple hardware will still be a problem for Linux because hackers will find a way around it and be able to install it on other computers. *shakes head* Hackers have found ways around XBOX security, but your average user can’t hack an XBOX. This is even assuming that it runs on a standard Intel processor. What if the processor is only used in the Apple Intel machines? Really stupid. The Apple on Intel thing will not hurt Linux at all.
He also mentions that Apple may have a hard time with hardware on the new platform, but Linux has a bad problem with hardware as well. When was the last time he used Linux? The ONLY hardware devices that give me any trouble are WiFi cards and Modems, and those can be made to work. I hardly think that is a big problem once you put it into perspective. I really do think that Linux is compatible with more hardware than most versions of windows(although not all of them combined). As well Apple users know to buy hardware that have the little Apple logo on them, this won’t change a thing. Actually it should be better, because the OS X kernel has already been being running on intel hardware with OpenDarwin for quite a while. Many drivers are probably already supported before the switch.
This article really has nothing to do with Linux doing better on the desktop. It’s just this guy saying why he thinks Apple is going to steal more Windows users than Linux with the switch, and what it really comes down to is, what can they install on their CURRENT computers?
You can apply you XBOX example in another way in this discussion too, in a more relevant way. Since the XBOX is more or less a standard PC with NVidia graphics, why haven the “hackers” out there released information on how to install the OS from the XBOX on a stock PC? Should be easy shouldn’t it, who wouldn’t want to dualboot their PCs into a XBOX system. No need to buy that extra XBOX then.
I’m getting the impression that this is another sensationalist op-ed writer.
What do other folks think?
My boss is a MS nut. Even he said he wanted to try one. The barrier has always been, “So I am supposed to spend a grand at least for something I might hate.” That barrier will be gone. Hate OSX? Dump it and go back to Windows, you wasted some money on an extra expensive machine but it won’t be a complete loss. This has been the crowd Linux has been after for years. This will give those looking for an alternative to Win an easier to use OS then Linux.
For those that claim the thieves won’t be missed:
Way back when MS Office was very easy to steal. MS took their time getting this fixed. By the time it was fixed something odd had happened. Everyone was using it at home and demanding that it be used at work. As recently as a few years ago 98% of all documents were word files. Office makes far more money for MS then Windows does. Any document software that even hopes to gain any kind of marketshare MUST be compatible with Office.
Now imagine a similar situation. OSX is easy to steal and put on a home computer. People start to like it and start to demand it at work.
This is the situation that Linux needs to step into. It faces two major challenges to fix before OSX hits. 1. The grandma test (can grandma sit down and use it with ease). 2. Pretty test or the “why is it using this unreadable font?” test.
“If you don’t want to use Windows, you will be able to use OSX on your (non-)Apple PC, either legally or in some shade of grey.”
Why do you assume EXACT x86? What if Intel’s Apple chips have a few extra instructions that OSX-x86 uses? If these instructions are used plentifully throughout the code, it’ll be VERY hard (well, impossible) to ‘hack’.
And why is 2007 some magical date?
OpenUnix on the desktop will have the advantage of being free as in beer, but most people don’t care about source code so bringing in politics into the mix will never work.
It’s going to be more of the same. OSX and OpenUnix will both nibble at windows marketshare, but there will be no earthshattering event that changes thing over night or by 2007.
My boss is a MS nut. Even he said he wanted to try one. The barrier has always been, “So I am supposed to spend a grand at least for something I might hate.” That barrier will be gone. Hate OSX? Dump it and go back to Windows, you wasted some money on an extra expensive machine but it won’t be a complete loss.
This is the one and only thing that the IntelMac has going for it. However, remember that stuff never has to be “the best”, “good enough and half the price” wins every time.
This has been the crowd Linux has been after for years. This will give those looking for an alternative to Win an easier to use OS then Linux.
First of all “the linux crowd” isn’t after anyone. Linux just is, and can be used by anyone willing to learn some basics about computing.
Now imagine a similar situation. OSX is easy to steal and put on a home computer. People start to like it and start to demand it at work.
You are assuming that it will be easy to copy and spread.. Right, who is going to create all the needed drivers for this illegal market? Without docs and specs for *both* the hardware *and* the OS? OSX will only come with the drivers needed for the original hardware. And that’s just the beginning. As it already has been pointed out the X-box has been hacked, yet it’s not easy for any grandma to install something else on it. And that’s a case of trying to keep something out. This Mac stuff is just about making sure you can only run your OSX on a real Mac. Ask anyone who ever done any emulating of nes/snes about undocumented custom-chips and what they can do. And that was befor the age of DRM.. Belive me, pirating OSX will not be trivial, and it will not be something any user can do. Why? How usefull would that fancy OS be without MS-Office?
This is the situation that Linux needs to step into. It faces two major challenges to fix before OSX hits. 1. The grandma test (can grandma sit down and use it with ease). 2. Pretty test or the “why is it using this unreadable font?” test.
You know this is funny, both of those “tests” are non-problems from where I’m sitting… My grandma can’t use this computer for natural reasons, but my computer-illiterate mother could easily do it, and my font’s doesn’t look any worse than in windows. You see, the tricky part with linux isn’t using it, it’s getting it up and running. But in fairness, how many grandmas have you seen install Windows by themselves?
Sorry, all in all you found one thing that is different from before, and that one won’t make all the difference, even if I can imagine it might bring *some* converts. But it still takes that the person is willing to shell out a few hundred bucks for essentially the same hardware, and I doubt the Jones will do that.
If you want to rule the world, you’ll have to try harder.
Probably the biggest thing that holds linux back, but because of the way things turned out there’s nothing that can be done now about it and you’ll have people screaming choice anyway.
Who says Mactel?? I mean seriously it sounds like a damn phone company. Atleast Wintel and Macintel make sense. The word flows smoothly from one word to the next. WINdows INTEL and MACINTosh INTEL. I hope Mactel’s direct connect can compete with Nextel…
I don’t know how many times I’ve seen this on OSNews, but …
1) Mac’s are still going to be proprietary.
Doesn’t matter about the fact that it runs on “a” Intel processor, it will still be proprietary. Most of Apple’s revenue stream comes from the price point on their hardware; that’s one of the reasons it costs so much for a Mac. They’re not going to make the OS universal; it will seriously cut into their revenue stream and their business model.
2)Mac’s are still going to be expensive computers.
Just because Jobs is going to use Intel doesn’t mean the prices will drop enough for Windows users to try it.
He’s losing his shirt on Mac Mini’s right now, and needs the rest of the line to make up for the shortfall, so a “bargain basement” Mac isn’t happening.
Where does that leave Linux? right back in the same position it was before; an underdog that runs on commodity hardware that keeps gaining ground on each distro’s release.
Yes it appears people are out to kill off FOSS in a new wave of editorialization, could call it EUD. So lets cast it aside and get back to work.
With that said, a little motivation to start cranking up distros wouldn’t hurt. I’m totally amazed at some of the features in the major distros. I totally dig the footwork Ubuntu has done by default, the package management for Gentoo and the polished look to Frugalware. I would like to see all the major distros do their best to be the best.
I don’t want to see distros with default options that don’t make sense, memory hoging GUIs, system tweaks that can be done but are left out of the install scripts or just general bugs that should be fixed.
Dead on. I totally see the same underdog elitist mentality in many Apple fanboys who cry about cheap Apple products. I’m still not sure why they want to bash Linux so much.
Microsoft hasn’t killed Linux, and Apple will certainly not.
You can kill a company but not an idea.
It is x86 because Apple would not give their developers Pentium 4s and then not use the x86 ISA.
this Apple will destroy Linux is becoming too repetitive now
while 99% of Linux users are too blissfully unbothered.
paint your hair any colour you like.
try glitter, try gloss
all i sense is but deep insecurity with such hysteria.
Linux will never be a viable desktop OS in the minds of the masses. It’s too foreign, and too different. Microsoft ain’t going anywhere, so you might just wanna get used to it.
I like Linux, but mainly as a server OS.
I have been using Linux on the desktop Since the Slackware 3.0 days when I was in college. I had enlightenment windows manager going on my now retired and trashed Laptop A Compaq Armada 4120T (Pentium 120mhz w/ 16 megs ram).
Linux will always be the power tool for people who demand freedom of information. I have been thinking about the current DRM trends and such. How long until the ISPs agree with the Movie and Music industry and start to ban non Mac or Windows hardware? Never, most of the entire infrastructure of the net is built on Unix. As long as there are open standards the real net will always exist. Sure you might have to compile some programs and edit some config files but the open source “hackers” and the open source “users” will always be free on the internet. Everyone else will just go to a default portal on their television and eat the BS which is what the net is turning into. I see Unix/Linux as the real machine operating systems of the future. Mainstream computers won’t be as primitive as they are now and most chips and motherboards will be DRM. Thank god for VIA and our Chinese friends. As long as importing non DRM motherboards and microprocessors are legal in my country (US) I will continue to buy “freedom” hardware and use “freedom” software such as Linux. There is a war of information going on and starting. The powers that be see the cultural effect of the internet and they don’t like what they see. As long as we have fairly advanced operating systems and compatible hardware the “REAL” internet will go underground within the next 10 years. Think of it as being 31337. Knowledge is power.
As to Linux making it to the desktop, I have had it since 1997. Tell this journalist to STFU and do some research.
Let’s say that Apple uses the new Intel features to lock its boxes, designing them so that they will only boot Mac OS X or other authorized, cryptographically signed OSes.
————————————
I dont think it will work like that, but very close though. I see it in reverse, where OSX will require the DRM chip to beable to boot. That way, Apple can make sure that only Apple computers can run OSX.
I have been using Linux for many years, while Linux has matured over this time I still have some nit picks. The need for better 3D support and DVD play back. I can play mp3 files with Real Player, why not have DVD playback also. It does not make any sense why I can play mp3s but no DVDs? come on. While some chip vendors (I’m looking at you ATI) have been less than forthcomming there is NO reason someone like the publishers of WinDVD could not come out with something like LinDVD. At the moment, 3D support is “ok” with my IBM A31p, but I would still like to play DVDs without booting into Windows 2000.
You need a decrypter to playback commercial DVD’s.
Your distro doesn’t include it for legal reasons. The distro could be sued for distributing it, and to license it would take away from the “free” nature of the distribution.
I’m not sure why you’re having so much trouble with DVDs on Linux. I’ve had no problem watching DVDs on FreeBSD or Fedora Core using Ogle. What app are you using to watch them?
The general consensus among corporations (yeah the one’s with money and the one’s that have a need to choke someone’s neck when the ‘puter’s on the fritz) is that Linux really isn’t worth it because when you look at it, Redhat’s asking $1,200/server and Lindows seems to nickel and dime you to death on the desktop, Novell sells you the NDS for a reasonable fee but next they want to sell you Netware (hey Novell, the 90s called and they want their NOS back).
Steve Jobs will license MacOSX to Dell and others just like he’s licensed iPODs to HP. I am already guessing that Sony, HP and Dell are lining up at 1 Infinite Loop, Cupertino to talk to Steve.
HPs barely acknowledges that they have a Linux laptop (acutally it’s a dual boot). Dell seems to bury the fact that their machines can run Linux. Tivo doesn’t even say they’re linux and bury the fact on the last page of their manual. Cisco, Motorola and others don’t even mention Linux.
I’m guessing that they’re embarrased that they’re charging big bucks for stuff built on free software. On the other hand boy if it costs big bucks they’re just waaay to happy – like the way Motorola advertised the Razr because it has iTunes. Does Motorola take out 2 page glossies for their Linux based cell phones that only sells in China?
The general consensus among corporations (yeah the one’s with money and the one’s that have a need to choke someone’s neck when the ‘puter’s on the fritz) is that Linux really isn’t worth it because when you look at it, Redhat’s asking $1,200/server and Lindows seems to nickel and dime you to death on the desktop, Novell sells you the NDS for a reasonable fee but next they want to sell you Netware (hey Novell, the 90s called and they want their NOS back).
Reading this post appears to be opinion than fact due to the lack of sources and references.
The hype may have peeked, but linux on the desktop was never there to begin with.
I always thought the way for Linux or BSD or now OpenSolaris to make a dent in the desktop was to either (a) have one major desktop and get all the vendors to work on that instead of having the open source desktop divided up or (b) at least have a standard toolkit with standard interop technologies (which freedesktop is somewhat attempting) and just have a bunch of desktops because at least the infrastructure would be there for interop or (c) do something totally crazy to at least differentiate themselves from more windows clones.
And it doesn’t help when the toolkit licenses aren’t very developer friendly and you have people wanting to shut out quality proprietary apps.
BSD, OpenSolaris, Linux work fine for servers. It’s time to move on.
Apple’s switch to Intel processors won’t change anything. They won’t allow cloners. This immediately takes them out of contention. This is the whole reason the PC market exploded in the first place. Sure, there will be hacked versions of OSX out there but who is going to write the device drivers for it? Not Apple. You’ll only be able to use “Apple approved” hardware and that eliminates any reason to build your own.
…keeps the advertising money coming.
As usual, this article makes the big assumption that you will be able to buy (or pirate, which I suspect is equally likely) Mac OS X off a retail shelf and install it on a whitebox (or branded) Intel PC that isn’t made by Apple. Now this *may* be possible with a hacked version that someone puts up some patches for on the Net, but I bet anything that the unhacked version will *not* install on an Intel whitebox.
If you have to buy an Apple Intel box to run Mac OS X, then Apple will definitely not gain any significant market share unless they cut their prices close to Dell/HP/IBM levels (which I think is also quite unlikely). Basically, Mac OS X hasn’t taken significant market share because you have to buy premium-priced Apple hardware to run it – if that situation remains the same, then Linux on the desktop is not under any threat whatsoever.
Remember that Apple have had years to become the clear #2 desktop OS with Mac OS X and they’ve failed to significantly pull ahead of Linux on the desktop (in fact surveys suggest that it’s Linux making the gains, not Mac OS X), so changing CPU architecture and not lowering prices or allowing whiteboxes to run it will mean little change to the situation.
I’m writing this with a Ubuntu-powered iBook. Anyone saying OS X is superior to Linux when concidering usability is wrong. To me KDE and all its wonderful applications are priceless. I couldn’t use OS X even if I was paid for it. In other words: to me OS X was just a huge pile of dead hype.
You may think that OS X is quite good operating system, but that is just your opinion. Just like I have mine. I don’t use Linux because it’s free. I use it because it’s the best available.
I use linux, I’ve used Mac OS and I use Windows on the job. If you will read what the poster said at the beginning, he’s talking about DESKTOP linux. You can go on and on about how great Linux is, but until you have someone who can use it without having to know the command line interface to get things done and install programs, then it’s not going to happen in the workplace. If Mac OS driven computers become as cheap as Windows machines, schools and businesses will have to start taking a look at them. I’m not going to force linux onto users that can’t even handle creating desktop shortcuts in Windows.
Linux may BE the best OS, I reserve judgement on that point, But until it really is user-friendly for anyone and everyone, then it’s not going to happen in schools or in business and it very well could decline.
viable enough for me…
but until you have someone who can use it without having to know the command line interface to get things done and install programs
My dad and brother both seem to get by just fine on their Linux boxen without ever touching the command line. Neither are very computer literate, either. This point in time that you and others are apparently waiting for is already here.
Linux has detected all my hardware without any additional drivers (OS X couldn’t even detect my printer). That’s the user-friendliness I prefer. And with Ubuntu or my desktop SuSE 9.3 I’ve never had to touch command line interface. Not even once. They also ship with a full Office and multimedia packages (minus dvd), and other convenient programs (iTunes can’t even play oggs without an additional plugin). That’s user-friendliness for me. I can also modify my desktop to make it feel just the way I like (words “modify” and “OS X” don’t even fit in a same sentence). That’s user-friendliness for me. Anyway, if you want something like OS X from the Linux world, you should try Linspire. It’s like OS X, but easier and more versatile. And yes, it has the same “one file, one program” installation system as OS X (Klik). The difference is that it actually has some usable free programs.
Mac OS X will only run on a paricular kind of hardware that happens to have an Intel processor stuck onto it. You will not be able to run Mac OS X on a white-box computer (and no OEM would do it) and so Mac OS will simply not get the level of supply it needs to be any kind of credible threat to Windows or Linux.
Sony Computer Entertainment’s Boss just announced that Linux will come pre-installed on add-on HDDs for the PS3. This would make it the first Linux Cell-based computer available for consumers at a relatively low price..
Meanwhile, there are more Linux desktops in circulation than ever before. KDE and Gnome have become mature desktop that offer as good a user experience as do WinXP or Mac OSX, specialized and generic-purpose LiveCDs abound, and Linux is making big inroads in Europe and Asia.
In other words, things have never been better for Linux on the Desktop…so of course the naysayers, MS fanboys and astroturfers will come out of the woodwork to claim “Linux is dying, Linux is dying!”
Of course the Linux desktop must improve. This would be true even if Linux had a much larger market share, simply because Linux developers shoudl always strive to improve their OS and the apps that run on it. But it’s not a matter of survival: Linux has better chances of surviving than Mac OSX, if only because Apple – as a corporation – can be bought, dismantled, go broke, etc…
OSX only runs on Apple hardware, Linux doesn’t have a standard desktop environment as well as a host of other problems.
Neither is a threat to windows.
Linux is going to have a hard time on the desktop until there’s a sane, sensible and STANDARD packaging system. Masses of distros and GUIs and tools aren’t the answer – people just want to click apps and go. Otherwise we’ll forever be having conversations like this with newcomers (this is a rough transcript of something recently):
“How can I get the latest Gnumeric for my Linux system? It fixes a bug I’m having a problem with.”
“Is it available in your package repositories?”
“The what? Can’t I just download and install it?”
“Well kinda, but first you need to start up your package manager.”
“So there’s not a file I can just download and install?”
“Well, you have to see if it’s in your repositories. (Long explanation of using package manager).”
“OK, the latest version isn’t there. What can I do?”
“Well, you could compile from source. But it’ll depend on newer GNOME and GTK libraries, which are long and complicated to install.”
“Oh man. Is that it?”
“Or you could find another package for a different distro, although it probably won’t work or give you other problems.”
“WTF? Why can’t I just download a file and install it, like on other OSes? This is madness.”
“Well… It’s because… You know, you have a point. There shouldn’t be ANY of this hassle.”
You see? Users shouldn’t have to mess around with packages and repositories and Synaptic and apt-get etc. etc. etc. They only add further problems, and if your package isn’t in your particular distro’s repository, you’re screwed.
Good luck to http://www.autopackage.org — making Linux software installation sane and sensible.
“Linux may BE the best OS, I reserve judgement on that point, But until it really is user-friendly for anyone and everyone, then it’s not going to happen in schools or in business and it very well could decline.”
GUI != user-friendly.
Discoverable == user-friendly.
I know we’ve all used non-discoverable and discoverable gui’s, and we know the difference.
People have an illogical fear of the command line. The fact is that it’s not immediately discoverable; you need to have a small subset of knowledge to begin discovering. This is why most people believe it’s not user-friendly. What they don’t realize is that you need the same subset of information to discover gui programs. Don’t believe me? Let’s talk:
1.) There’s the obvious need to know how to move your wrist to make a mouse work; that takes about 20 minutes to get good at it. Once must know how to work a keyboard (pretty obvious actually, except return and all those standard function keys like Scroll Lock).
2.) One must understand the click paradigm. This isn’t as obvious as it seems. Macintosh users believe they have the simplest click paradigm, they’re actually entirely wrong. Having only one button only removes one level of complexity. They’ve forgotten about the widget click paradigm…
a.) Links, those highlighted text regions we all know have a single click action.
b.) Buttons, raised things with text or images that you can push on by clicking once.
c.) File widgets, those things you must double click to do an action (woopsie, hello complication; good complication though).
3.) One must understand the application paradigm. This is actually where gui’s are difficult to understand, and CLI is king. Why you ask? To use CLI you only need to know that you can run one app at a time; believe it or not but that’s simple and very discoverable. Now, you can actually run multiple at a time, but this knowledge isn’t necessary to get anything done.
a.) Do applications live inside windows? This isn’t simple on any system actually. Most Windows uers will say “yes they do.” They’re often right, ans sometimes wrong. Applications live in windows, if they don’t live in the systray; or even somewhere else: ‘My Computer’ is just an explorer.exe subroutine. On Macintosh they’ll give a resounding “no it doesn’t.” And I think that’s pretty close to true. This is actually nice to have, but it’s confusing for those who didn’t already know that (good, but confusing; good). Everything else has exceptions abounding, firefox is a good global exception (it’s always one program, but when you launch it a new script runs and finishes once it’s talked to the binary).
b.) What is the window doing if I minimize it? This is always the same. There are people who don’t know they can minimize who use multiple programs (they will close word and open ie and then close ie and open word!).
c.) Undo? Is it always gonna be there for me? It should on stable applications wherever possible (obviously Photoshop can’t store 5,000 changes unless you’re very wealthy or very patient).
d.) Copy and Paste. I consider this to be the equivalent of pipes; it’s about as close to a standard user driven IPC as you can get. But it’s never quite simple is it. Windows does it very very very well, I mean that.
e.) Programs. Every OS has programs to do things. And people need to know to some extent what they are. Usually it’s blatantly obvious, but you still have to learn to recognize your word processor over your browser.
Most people never learned the small basics to use a command line, but it’s really pretty similar to what they had to learn to interact with their gui’s. It does involve more reading (man pages verse clicking till you figure it out).
It’s not black and white though. People can use command lines just fine, they just need to do a bit of reading first; just like when they did a bit of (probably being taught) experimentation to learn their gui.
That said. There’s not much you can’t do in Mandrake in their gui.
Bad example. GNUmeric is gtk1.x I believe
. Very very few apps are dependent on the latest gtk. Most are dependent on either 2.2 (about 2.5-3 years ago) or 2.4 (year ago I think). I can tell this because the features of 2.6 (the file-chooser-button widgets) require disk access when I use them the first time; because no other app is using it! That and almost everything works on RHEL4 which uses gtk 2.4.
You should hear people moan and groan about having to find apps on the web, download and double click a file.
You can thank IP for that one. Real isn’t about to give you a dvd play license, the only reason you get it with windows is because you bought one with the software that you bought with your drive.
Anyway, look into xine/mplayer. They *can* play anything. I’ll leave it at that.
I have to agree with both Watcher, and to a lesser degree, the author. People wanting to switch from Windows to another OS are increasingly going to look to Macs. I use Linux and, while it is fine for me and for most other computer savvy folks, Linux is still too confusing for the average person. I have personally experienced the problem that Watcher refers to. Another issue is the desktop. While it’s great that Linux users can use Fluxbox, E, Gnome, KDE, etc., too many choices for the average person results in confusion. I think that one of the best things that the Linux community can do to increase and keep Linux desktop users is to unify the desktop to one GUI and hopefully all distributions will settle on a single, primary unified desktop platform. It won’t happen because the Linux zealots scream bloody murder whenever a distro tries to unify anything. Look at how everyone screamed when RedHat introduced Bluecurve. Windows thrives (regardless of the security issues) and Mac is growing because of marketing, but also because they know how to think in terms of the “non-geek” end-user’s needs. Unfortunately, Linux is still a “by geeks, for geeks” platform because the zealot mindset of many of its users can’t think beyond themselves.
“just quit your feeble trolling and fuck off.”
Yeah, thanks – what a way to respond to a REAL Linux problem. I’ve had conversations like that with MANY Linux newcomers (and the odd experienced user) through supporting them…
BUT NO! Just put your fingers in your ears, believe it’s not a problem and label me a troll.
Then when Linux STILL has < 10% market share in 2010, you might actually realise how big these problems are…
they need to scrap GNOME and KDE and go with something more lightweight and usable. They also need to revise how Linux boots up. That would help greatly! Most people need to replace the ex2 FS’s
I’m decidedly not a troll, but rather just sick and tired of people jabbering the same so called issues that only are problems in *their* limited minds, because everything *must* work the same way as Windows, because that’s all they know, and of course Windows is totally flawless, always work perfectly and the Windows way is the one and true way of doing everything.
Why bother with these people who basically want nothing but a gratis Windows? They can stay with that afaic, at least until they learn that new things requires an open mind and a willingness to learn new things, even such a *major* task as opening up kpackage and selecting the software they want to install.
M$ and apple decide they do not want a third player so billly hands over some money and also tells jobs it is alright to switch to intel so that they can “tag team” linux
heck, now apple becomes more popular, M$ is no longer a monopoly,billy makes money on his apple stock going thru the roof not to mention the fact that all those “monopoly” lawsuits and threats and agreements obvious arent relevant anymore….
At the very least linux growth/adoption is slowed which makes M$ look like it has gained a few percentage points and is “winning” against linux and M$ makes sure every magazine picks up that story and runs with it….
yep no doubt about it, since SCO didnt work in fact it kind of blew up in M$ face they figure they will dig the apple out of the barrel and throw it at linux….
I hope jobs got some BIG money out of billy boy!
it is us zealot mindsets that are the problem, we should all just assimilate and learn that choice is bad and that a monopoly is the way to go… I mean think about all the innovation we would have if everyone just worked on one DE for linux, it honestly would ROCK! BUT then if I do not like it then I do not have a choice, if that one DE fails then linux fails, if they choose not to innovate then we have no innovation….
it isnt the mindless zealots that are the cause of the great monopoly, in fact who is mindless the one who follows the great leader or leader(s) or the one that says “no leader for me” give me choice, give me freedom, give me a mess but damn-it it is MY mess….
amen, carry on
I actually almost feel sorry for you if you belive in what you just wrote..
You forget completely about the #1 factor; Cost. Unless Apple is going sell total crap at rock bottom prices they are *NEVER* going to outsell Dell and the other big guys. I doubt thats going to happen. And *FORGET* about clones, pirating and any such crap, it’s *NOT* going to happen, for reasons that a lot of people already have stated. Just realize that OSX and mac crushing Linux is nothing a pipe-dream that mac-heads are using to comfort themselves after losing their über-1337 PPC and some so called “analysts” are fanning because it gives them fame and hits on their sites.
“rather just sick and tired of people jabbering the same so called issues that only are problems in *their* limited minds, because everything *must* work the same way as Windows”
Why does everything have to be to do with Windows?! You know, when people point out genuine flaws in Linux on the desktop, it doesn’t always mean they want it to be Windows-like.
Take the above conversation with a newcomer. That’s just about EASE OF USE, not being “Windows-like”. Being able to install the latest apps with a single-click, instead of wait-for-repository-but-no-not-there-so-compile-from-source-but-need-5 00-libs
is NOT about Windows; it’s about good engineering.
Linux software installation is a complicated, messy nightmare – a billion packaging formats, repositories and GUIs don’t help. Users should just be able to double-click what they want, WHEN they want, regardless of distro repositories and libbonoboglade-ui.so.5.3.1 dependencies and packaging formats and managers etc. etc. etc.
That’s nothing to do with Windows. That’s just about making a good OS.
But yeah, put your fingers in your ears, and ignore the issues real users are having…!
yes and lets make a mountain out of a mole hill shall we…
What happened to that challenge someone made about installing a number of programs yada yada something about a thousand to the distro of coice or something….
“Linux software installation is a complicated, messy nightmare – a billion packaging formats, repositories and GUIs don’t help. Users should just be able to double-click what they want, WHEN they want, regardless of distro repositories and libbonoboglade-ui.so.5.3.1 dependencies and packaging formats and managers etc. etc. etc. ”
Well each distro is almost like a seperate OS so let me know the day you can run your OS/2 software on your mac and so forth…
Get religion, pick YOUR distro and realize that your distro has everything you need and if they dont then it is time to find a new distro! There is a reason people are so defensive when it comes to linux, because it is that possesive. Mine is the best because it works for me and I like the way it does everything, if something happens that I am unhappy I find me another distro…
Why does everything have to be to do with Windows?! You know, when people point out genuine flaws in Linux on the desktop, it doesn’t always mean they want it to be Windows-like.
Because my friend what you express *explicitly* is that it should work as windows.. Didn’t you read what you wrote? “Google -> Find website -> Surf to website -> Download -> dubble click to install” Except messy, to me it sounds *exactly* as Windows to me.
Take the above conversation with a newcomer. That’s just about EASE OF USE, not being “Windows-like”. Being able to install the latest apps with a single-click, instead of wait-for-repository-but-no-not-there-so-compile-from-source-but-need-5 00-libs
Funny as hell. I have converted newcomers to Linux, and I have yet to hear any complaints. The situation you describe is when you try to convert geeks who know their way around Windows and have this desperate need for the latest and the greates, preferably minutes after release. How about farking *WAIT* until it’s been packaged for you if you don’t have the skills to do it yourself? Obviously you don’t die from not compiling MS-Office from source, but rather wait for the packaging to be done for you, so why is waiting a few days or even weeks harmful when we are talking about free software?
Linux software installation is a complicated, messy nightmare – a billion packaging formats, repositories and GUIs don’t help. Users should just be able to double-click what they want, WHEN they want, regardless of distro repositories and libbonoboglade-ui.so.5.3.1 dependencies and packaging formats and managers etc. etc. etc.
You’ve got quite a lot of things wrong. Some software is badly architectured, notably gnome which has for some releases depended on libs still beeing in cvs, (i.e not released yet) but that has nothing to do with linux per se. And secondly, the whole *point* with repos is to save those whitout sufficent skills to build the stuff from source from the headaches. If you are too impatient and bypass that, you have only yourself to blame.
That’s nothing to do with Windows. That’s just about making a good OS.
No as I said above it has nothing to do with the OS, and *everything* with the competence and attitude of the user. If you think you are a poweruser on windows and always run the latest and the greatest, be prepaired that Linux and any other *nix OS is something entirely different. Be prepaired to be n00bs again. Because you are. Different rules, different environment, different skills. You don’t seriously expect a beduin, expert at surviving in the desert, to last more than a few minutes in arctic condiditions, do you?
But yeah, put your fingers in your ears, and ignore the issues real users are having…!
No, I just don’t listen to people whining about non-issues stemming from the fact that they haven’t grasped the idea that when you pick up something new you have to learn some new ways.
i do think it is a strong possibility that Billy is behind or at least prodding apple….
so you dont believe that M$ prodded SCO to do what they did?
M$ needs to hurt linux BUT MUST NOT be seen hurting linux, it must be shown that us sheep, i mean USERS chose windows over linux….
I didnt say CRUSH, i said take away a few percent of the linux numbers and by doing so it will look like users are choosing NOT to use linux, when in actuality they are just using something else but M$ will play it like they are winning, like everyone is realizing that linux is a bad thing and running to soemthing else….
Same thing as when you have a loner in the presidential race, the repubs want to see Loner-candidateX run NOT because he has a chance to win or they like him ONLY because they now it will pull votes away from Democat-candidateY and therefore cause him to lose that much easier….
I didn’t mean to imply you said *crush*. I was refering in general to the popular notion that Mac would be any kind of threat. Sorry for the confusion.
What a load of crap. If you use a repository for your chosen distro then with GUIs software can be installed with a couple of mouse-clicks.
As for having to wait for a distro to make an application available in the repository how is this any different from waiting for a software vendor to release a product?
well i have to admit that i want to try and run it if it works on a intel machine
but i certainly think that if a averageJoe decides he no longer wants windows then he is going to look and find linux and NOW he will also see appleOS as a possibility…. Do I think linux users will flock to appleOS, of course not but I do think that averageJoe who likes to pay for a new computer because “something” happened to his, if he goes down to staples and sees a cool machine that rocks then yes he will pick that up…. and I do not see linux boxes at staples…
all windows needs is a percent or two gain from a verifiable source and they will have it published in every mag in the world…..
if you have that much trouble installing software on linux then you obviously havent taken the time to learn your distro very well…
and sorry but no lock in either since i guess that is the next troll argument…
i use my libranet disks to install software on my:
xandros box
debian box
linspire box
and have even used the rpm drivers provided by USR for my modem on each of those distros…
the important thing is not heading off straying LINUX users but making sure POTENTIAL users see linux and not just appleOS as a alternative….
I mean if my mother goes to staples and sees a windows box and a apple box then that is the choice and linux isnt even in the picture…..
That’s why I responded with a laundry list of reasons that CLI is in fact not “user-unfriendly” in opposition to gui being “user-friendly”. He called you a troll, not me. Your post was unproductive though, and you need to type in a name other than anonymous. Just pick a semi-unique name.
i think some users find the gui friendly and others the command line…
go to the linspire forums, most there think a gui is friendly, even if it limits you, doesnt always do what it is suppose to do and crashes on occasion….
i find the command line never crashes, is simple to use, is amazingly productive and in general friendly… My wife thinks clicking thru tons of options and lists and searching for that one item is friendly and usable….
Maybe it depends on wether you are a “know how to use a computer” or if you “know computers” similar to a “average user” and a “power user” of course I think any power user that only uses gui tools is NO power user but thats another argument…
I tried teaching my classmates how to use debian and they could never remember
su
apt-get update
apt-get packagname
but give them a clicker and they will waste hours trying to click everything and install stuff… maybe there is “keyboard” people and “mouse” people…. I never believed this but I am starting to!
Ok, sorry for my poor reading-skills, it’s getting late here. As for being unproductive, you are quite right, it was about as productive as another “I wanna download executables which I double-click on to install, otherwise Linux will fail” whine. It’s getting really old.
Yours truely
Semi-uniqe
Of people telling us that linux is moribund because Apple is making its triumphal entry in the PC architecture?
Forget it!!!
I am not going to give up my freedom.
I might try OS X because I am a geek, but because of the very same reason I’ll go back to linux/BSD.
“How about farking *WAIT* until it’s been packaged for you if you don’t have the skills to do it yourself?”
Hehe, this is comical. So even though some great new piece of software is out, users must WAIT (possibly indefinitely) to use it? Or compile from source? Or make their own packages? Or use in-development repositories?
Do you realise how that sounds? Again, it’s not about Windows. In Mac OS X, BeOS, Amiga OS, RISC OS, etc. etc. etc. there aren’t these hassles. New software comes out and you install it. No waiting, no fuss. Having so many different repositories and formats and tools just dilutes the testing effort – if there was ONE package format, and some standards, everyone on every distro could install something as it came out, and all the QA would go into ONE package.
But no, that’s easy, user-friendly, neat and sensible. It evidently reminds you of Windows – so let’s stick with the overly complex situation we have… Sigh!
Hehe, this is comical. So even though some great new piece of software is out, users must WAIT (possibly indefinitely) to use it? Or compile from source? Or make their own packages? Or use in-development repositories?
No, it’s you being an extremely lame. When stuff is released it’s done in the form of source-code. This is to the n00b (that’s you) the same as Microsoft telling the world that “Software XYZ has now gone ‘Gold'”. Now, when we speak about closed source you just accept that there is going to be a delay while things get packaged. But when we are talking about stuff you get for free you feel you should be given it yesterday in your preferred way. Hypocritical at best, stupid or trollish, you chose. And if this is truly such a marvellous piece of software, it *will* be packaged for the major distros eventually. Last time I checked debian had something like 16000 packages in their repo. Surely that covers the needs of most people?
Besides; If you think the delay is too long, hey, how much did you pay for it? And what’s stopping you from finding another distribution that has a policy that is more to your liking?
Do you realise how that sounds? Again, it’s not about Windows. In Mac OS X, BeOS, Amiga OS, RISC OS, etc. etc. etc. there aren’t these hassles. New software comes out and you install it.
OK, and in how many other Os’s does these programs work? Huh? These programs are usually aimed at not only multiple Os’s but also multiple platforms. Of course things get more complicated then. That’s why you should use the repos.
No waiting, no fuss. Having so many different repositories and formats and tools just dilutes the testing effort – if there was ONE package format, and some standards, everyone on every distro could install something as it came out, and all the QA would go into ONE package.
“One ring to rule them all, and in darkness bind them.” Should we also in the name of efficiency disband all political parties but one? How about all governments but one? Why bother with another OS to begin with, since there already apparently is one that does what you want?
But no, that’s easy, user-friendly, neat and sensible. It evidently reminds you of Windows – so let’s stick with the overly complex situation we have… Sigh!
No, it’s none of those things. It’s what you are familiar with. You confuse “familiarity” with “ease of use”, a very common fallacy. I find it downright amazing that the newbies I have converted to Linux manages without any problems, and even love it, when you have such problems. I guess that’s because they didn’t expect or want a Windows-clone.
Finally; The more I read your posts the more I find that you don’t really want freedom of choice, you want dictatorship. Thus Linux and free software isn’t for you, you should probably just stick too your pirated copy of Windows because it behaves exactly the way you claim Linux should, for precisely the price you want to pay.
The post by Tarball has already handled this completely. If Watcher isn’t listening to Tarball’s comments, he’s trolling.
Here’s what Tarball wrote;
“re: Watcher
By Tarball (IP: —.server.ntli.net) – Posted on 2005-06-11 23:37:19
What a load of crap. If you use a repository for your chosen distro then with GUIs software can be installed with a couple of mouse-clicks.
As for having to wait for a distro to make an application available in the repository how is this any different from waiting for a software vendor to release a product?”
Yes I know, by me too before that (in the reply to chris, and implicitly in the post below). I knew from the beginning he was just trolling, that’s why my first reply was rather rude. I just don’t want him to fool a lot of mindless me “too types”. Now he’s got a lot of reasoned replies (chris, me) which he rather significantly has ignored. Thus the proof is in the pudding regarding who’s the troll..
If you must reply to a troll, keep it short and simple.
While I agree that informing the uninformed is a good idea, each response to a troll encourages them. They thrive on any type of attention. The more time you put in, the more fun they have. Some even pretend that they are doing a public service by trolling, though I think it’s just an excuse to let out sadistic tendencies. (That, or they are nuts.)
The people who are just learning will have to figure out the truth by themselves as much as possible. Sometimes that takes a while since they can’t quickly see how the troll is lying or twisting facts as sport and may see it (initially) as information or insight.
(Besides, while this Watcher child may be a newbie troll, they all have to start somewhere. By lessening your reactions, you can reduce the amount of training they get. Maybe some will grow out of it.)
When was the last time Adobe had a development release cycle?
has anyone ever got a source cd from linspire? just wondering? ever seen one? ever heard from someone who knew someone who heard that someone actually got one…??? didnt think so
If they are as compliant as they claim shouldnt one exist in the wild SOMEWHERE?