The Sun Times has published an article discussing Linux and its viability as a desktop operating system. Be warned: this article can safely be filed under “flamebait.”
Sorting through the Linux lie: What it really can do
About The Author
Adam Scheinberg
Technology Executive • Web Developer • Father • Foodie • Music Snob • OS enthusiast
Follow me on Mastodon @[email protected]
Is it just me, or does that site manage to get a popup past Firefox?
I thought the article was very well written and wasn’t explicitly flamebait. I agree with most of the points on the article, in fact.
However, I’m also a person who thinks that Linux just plain doesn’t belong in the hands of your uncle who thinks that the computer should be able to know what he meant when he clicked the wrong button. There are must better investments of time when it comes to Linux development, in my opinion – While it is secure in a sense, I still see numerous Linux servers compromised regularly.
Just my opinion, though.
I know I am going to cop it for this one but this article is not totally unfounded, as workstation’s unix’s and linux are fine but once you start asking users to config software the difference between linux and the commercial desktops (meaning: Windows and OSX) becomes apparent. I think the fault lies here in the unix/linux community coming together for a unified aproach to installing software, look at the different package systems:
PKGSRC
APT
RPM
OpenPKG
pkgadd
Portage
FreeBSD Ports
and so on…
I guess the closest the community has come to a unified approach is RPM
Internet Explorer 6 blocked the Popup!
🙂
Will, I get what you’re saying, but the article is FULL of statements that aren’t true.
Desktop linux has come a LONG way, and some flavors, such as Xandros and Linspire, do just work – at least, as much as Windows “just works.” Not all behavior is the same, some is better, some is worse.
Also, this nonsense about things not working, such as a CD burner, are complete crap. If I down my Linux box and change the hardware – either kudzu or draktools or Knoppix’s excellent hardware detection will find and configure it.
“On Linux, you plug in a DVD burner, and — nothing happens.”
What’s the author expecting? Many linux distros come with CD/DVD burning software. If not, you simply install k3b, just as if you were using Windows you’d probably install Nero. The only difference I see is that in Linux the CD/DVD burning software is free.
At least in the Mac Community. Andy Ihnatko knows what he is talking about when he is talking “user functionality”. He has carped about the Mac when Apple didn’t get it right and he has carped about Windows.
Personally, as a Linux user, a Windows user, and a Mac owner, I think he gets it right. Sure, there are a LOT of things that Linux needs – cleaner UI, easier installs, etc. Is it plug and play? Well, only if you know what to load and install!
The one thing I would argue is that Linux has advance tremendously in the last couple of years. And I would argue that it will be a desktop system that Joe Bob can use. But not today.
flamebait….pitiful
so what happens when a piece of hardware doesnt work on windows… can you get your hands dirty and fix it-NOPE, any chance of getting it working thru numerous incantations and gyrations-nope you sre just SOL…
Most casual users surf the net, email, word processing stuff, and MAYBE a spreadsheet and posibly photos, a few may even burn cds of stuff… so for all of those I would say that linux is a perfect fit and easy to boot
Now for those that like to try every new piece of hardware out there, that have that plugin thingy that makes dvds from VHS and will record your karoke and put it all together and burn it for you so all you have to do is have the 80megs of memory the program takes up, the gig of space on the hard drive it takes up and the 99% of your CPU resources it takes up… well, stick to windows becuase only windows will dumb crap down that much…stuff that SHOULDNT be dumbed down but instead you should actually learn…oh well i am running off…
No popup here….
Keep saying linux isnt for the desktop, it sure is on a lot of them…. XP is on everyones desktop because dell sells 300 systems with XP preinstalled. Heck I dont buy a car and rip out the seats immediately and replace with something else either… the day that linux is pre-installed is the day the new coputer buyer uses it…
OH, and uh I would say the easiest OOB linux experience would be Xandros! didnt hear that one mentioned… My wife is a nurse but managed to install that without any help or guidance…
it Linux makes a good enough desktop so i don’t have to use MS-Win on my desktop…
“On Linux, you plug in a DVD burner, and — nothing happens.”
Which isn’t really true, but it does bring up an interesting notion. On Windows, plugging in a device starts that whole “New Hardware Found” wizard which is not necessary for Linux, but which ends (hopefully) with a nice reassuring “Your new hardware is ready for use” message.
Can’t something like that be done with dbus?
uh yea, choice is bad…
lets all unify linux, stick it all under the control of linspire and be happy… gimme a break!
rpm is probably the LEAST unified approach
The guy brought up some excellent points here. Linux will become a dominant OS for the average person. I just think that for most of the people in a home environment it isn’t ready for them yet.
It’s just gonna take some more work thats all. Let’s learn to use the articles as a roadmap of where to improve instead of slagging it as “flamebait” everytime they say something the Linux community doesn’t want to hear.
I agree with him, and I think the article was well written. I too am a Linux enthusiast. But until hardware and software makers get behind the Linux community (and the Linux community quits publicly bickering at each other and works together better) there will never be a Linux for Humans.
I really wish I could go to Echo Audio’s site, and download the driver for my sound card.
I wish I could go to the store and buy a copy of Adobe Photoshop CS for Linux.
But it hasn’t happened. I tried talking my sister-in-law yesterday into switching to Ubuntu or FC3. The comments I heard were:
Her: “yeah, it looks easy enough to use. but can you get Photoshop for it? Office?”
Me: “well no, but it has a PS-like app called GIMP. It has an Office-like app called OpenOffice”
Unfortunately to the general public, Not being able to download and doubleclick drivers, and not having the exact applications they’re looking for just isn’t good enough.
Adobe, last I heard, has begun to develop some of their apps into Linux ports, but when will that be done? The answer for when MS will port Office to Linux is an even easier answer.
Well written and largely accurate. To much fragmentation and repeated effort in the Linux arena for the “Community” to provide a competitive Linux GUI to compete with OSX and Windows.
not quite the same but similar
so do you have a META package that installs your favorite software/driver on your NT4,95,98,2k,2k3,XP….
omg, you have to find a different package for different flavors of windows…. and you have to find a different package for different flavors of linux… seems alright to me… of course with linux it is on a bigger scale since the OS changes so often and is tweaked and changed further by the distro butif if akes you feel better then just act like there is ONE linux out there, pick it and use it and dont worry about the others….
Firefox blocked the popup for me.
Anyway, actually a truthful article. Nothing we haven’t read before though so I can’t help but think the writer just wants to read an article he wrote so they picked a flame worthy topic and title.
but always a grain of truth even in flamebait. Installing new hardware is still not for the newbie, then you got the tons of distros, no unified desktop, hard to get out of repository jail….etc.
I had hopes for linux on the desktop for the mainstream user maybe 5 years ago, but not anymore. It works fine as a server, and I’ll use it on the desktop some of the time, but just too many problems for the user that isn’t locked down.
On Linux, you plug in a DVD burner, and — nothing happens.
Under Windows, up pops a box asking for drivers, if youre lucky, you can insert the CD and it will work. More likely though, is that you need to run an installer which installs the drivers along with some awful bundled software, but doesnt work after Windows installs the “unknown device”, so the average user now phones either the helpline or their local expert who then has to guide them through the removal of the “unknown device” and the re-install of the drivers and awful bundled software.
On linux, assuming you are using a mainstream distro (I doubt many newbies are running stage 1 Gentoo installs) a Google search will find the driver, which will exist for most devices. Admittedly, you will occasionally find a device with no linux support, but thats really down to the manufacturer, and there are some drivers which are difficult to install (nVidia taught me that killing xfs is the only way to bring down X on FC2…). There are some difficult Windows drivers too…
Compare this to linux a few years ago and you will see how far it has come already. If it continues like this, it should be better than Longhorn by the time it is released.
for ease of installment.
Also, I would like a unified UI that DOESN’T suck.
I do not find the author’s opinion unfounded. If you really look at it. This article truly compliments the real geeks that actually use Linux as more than just a servergrade OS. Personally, I do not want to be regarded as the rest of the sheep (Windows Users or just a plain user ). The Big 2 Commercial OSs sacrifice freedom, and finances of the User for “ease of use”. Back in the Old DOS and PreWindows days, users were much more intuative. They were willing to pick up books and buy magazines to find out how to better make use of their PCs. Heh, Even the Games made you think.
Now that times have changed, a lot of people are just plain lazy. The Big 2 OS manufacturers (Desktop) Has really taken advantage of the “ordinary” user. Microsoft, Charges about $300 Bucks for XP Pro. Apple only charges about $129, But just try to find many “Good” Apps for Free for OSX. Not to mention all the inherent Hooks (Hardware DVD regional settings limits, etc. In a MAC).
So in conclusion… A not-so-easy Desktop Linux Distro isn’t such a bad thing. The price of freedom may just be, doing a little extra research and contributting to the community. But to me, that’s far better than contibutting to a business model that constantly restricts, and starves my purse.
It really isn’t that hard to get a popup past Firefox or IE. http://www.ngemu.com for example.
All you have to do is add an onclick event handler to every link on the page (or even every element), and it will make a popup whenever you click on anything.
Or you can use Flash.
The only difference I see is that in Linux the CD/DVD burning software is free.
yep, that’s partially why i burn with cdrtools. Nero Express screws up, and some of the free burners don’t support my USB burner. cdrtools (cdrecord) consistently works, although i do have to boot into nix to use it.
“Her: “yeah, it looks easy enough to use. but can you get Photoshop for it? Office?”
Me: “well no, but it has a PS-like app called GIMP. It has an Office-like app called OpenOffice” ”
and until people use linux then nothing will be developed for it, so at the least she could dual boot, send a message to adobe about how she loves linux and wishes photoshop was available for it and THEN they will get the message that linux is the way to go…
Or she could actually use the tools that are available on linux like openoffice and the GIMP….HEY thats a thought…
Flamebait ? Oh, why do you think a title like “Sorting through the Linux lie” would anywhere cause raised eyebrows ?
Oh come on, tell me my dear reader fellows, which of you couldn’t write such a rant ?
Of course, if you just wash away everything you know about computers, OSes and networking and put your point of view there, you’ll probably end up with soemthing this guy had to say.
Some of us who use linux as a main OS for everything know that there’s no really unsolvable problem. And none of us would spend long minutes or philosophical contemplation about how a dvd burner can be made to work in linux. Nor about new hard drives or usb/firewire/bluetooth peripherals.
So, in the end, such writings are good for only one thing: if people who don’t know linux read it, and believe the guy, then they won’t even look at linux anytime in the near future.
It’s probably good for the paper, ’cause it generates buzz, but such articles’ only achievement with me is that the author’s reputation drops a few inches.
i’ve been using solaris shells off and on for 12 years. and been using linux for 3 years. i still find that linux is a geek toy, server OS, or corp workstation. i don’t think it’s ready for the big-time yet. i discourage friends and family from trying it, unless they willing to invest some time in it.
there’s a lot of truth in the article.
the day that linux is pre-installed is the day the new coputer buyer uses it…
I agree with your statement. Another thing I believe will increase the adoption of Linux as a desktop amongst the mere mortal population is projects like Munich, Germany moving to a Debian based system.
If they have their secretaries, receptionists, etc. using Linux every day, these employees will want to run the same software at home so they can transfer things back and forth easily. This is the only reason Microsoft and Windows became as widely used as they are; people had to use it at work.
If Apple had marketed to business the way IBM did, Microsoft would probably be a company with 40 employees, nobody would know where Redmond, WA is, and Longhorn would be the next version of their Macintosh label making software; MS McLabel Professional 2008.
I think Linux makes a great desktop. Sure it has it’s quirks and flaws and the average Joe probably can’t fix it when there is a problem, but guess what, the average Joe can’t fix his Windows machine either.
If convenience means daily scans and definition updates for half a dozen different antivirus and spyware detion programs.
-and-
If convenience means searching the net for a program that is actually free vs. shareware, downloading it, then going through a wizard to install (vs. firing up Synaptic, typing a query, selecting the program, then clicking install).
..then no thanks.
How often does the average home user install new hardware? And doesn’t the average user have someone competent do it for them?
Just my $0.02.
“Unfortunately to the general public, Not being able to download and doubleclick drivers, and not having the exact applications they’re looking for just isn’t good enough.”
There are several types of desktops: home desktops, work desktops, graphical designer’s desktops, engineer’s desktop, gamer desktop, etc. I agree that linux is not ready for typical dumb home user desktops and for gamers desktops while hardware and software makers don’t begin to offer their products to linux platform. But I believe that linux is perfect for enterprise desktops who have a competent IT staff which provides all applications that employees need.
Home users are the most difficult to convince to switch because most of them use pirated versions of softwares for years and they are lazzy and ignorant to learn anything new.
Typical americans also have a distorced vision of linux because they live in a rich country and can buy proprietary softwares easily. The situation is very different in development countries, where this is impossible. Pirated software use is popular but people have the notion that maybe one day it can ends and they will be f***ed. Most educated people here are looking for alternatives and linux is already very popular between them. Linux is being adopted massively in government and several private companies.
You couldn’t me more right. They need to standardize something…Linux is a mess. Not to mention an very unfriendly bunch of people when looking for answers in forums. I just installed Fedora on my IBM thinkpad and you know what, the video sucks. I can’t get above 800×600 resolution and the sound doesn’t work. I tried Debian…same thing. I try FreeBSD and …bamm! Everything works. Took a little longer to install of course but at least I can have the 1280×1024 resolution I like and my sound works. Picked up my wireless no problem as well. Of course windows works too, so I dual boot.
In any case, Linux is supposed to be ahead of BSD for stuff like that and it’s not. At least with FreeBSD I know where my config files are and new software install is a breaze with the ports collection.
As far as commercial apps, I understand. I host websites for some graphics guys and they need their photoshop and other adobe products. There isn’t any open source apps that can do what Adobe/Macromedia does. They also use Dreamweaver, something else you can’t get in Linux unless you use Wine I guess (is there a performance hit with this..I don’t know?). They stick with Mac’s.
Of course want double click drivers, they want easy, when i am not at work I want easy too..can’t blame them.
Mind you, I use Linux at work, so I’m pretty familiar with the problems:
1. Hardware isn’t automatically discovered. Sure, you can get around it (well, if it is USB), but for the most part it is work.
2. Software installers are either primitive or worse than primitive. Face it, one click install is what Linux needs.
3. Confusing. I run KDE (sorry, folks, Gnome is even worse). It is positively unfriendly when it comes to setup.
4. Changing monitors, display adapters – X Windows is not for the faint of heart.
5. Peripherals either work or they don’t. When someone shops for a peripheral the last thing they want to do is find out there is no driver for it. Granted, this will only come about when hardware manufacturers provide them – but at the moment…
6. Inconsistent interface. Say what you will about Windows or Mac, but the one thing they do is present a consistent interface to the user. Opening a file looks the same across applications. This is not true in Linux.
7. Where does the user go for help? The LAST thing we need is more people responding with RTFM.
8. A good chunk of stuff still has to be done at that console level. This is again a major problem.
http://www.ngemu.com
no popup here on firefox thanks anyway… next
oh and sorry no flash here either…
actually just a plain href with a target=”_blank” will get you running too but then again that is assuming someone actually CLICKS on something and not just page load
i’ve been using solaris shells off and on for 12 years. and been using linux for 3 years. i still find that linux is a geek toy, server OS, or corp workstation. i don’t think it’s ready for the big-time yet. i discourage friends and family from trying it, unless they willing to invest some time in it.
I find that interesting. I’ve been using Linux, BSD, SunOS, AIX, Solaris, and some other flavors of Unix for about 11 years and the shells are probably the biggest reason I run Linux instead of Windows on my laptops.
Whenever I’m on a Windows machine (yes, it does happen), I feel like my right arm is tied to my left ankle behind my back; mainly due to the lack of a decent shell.
Windows is almost ready for the desktop now with the release of SP2. <<flamebait 🙂
If you want windows compatibility, check out Crossover-office. For $90USD you can start running Windows apps on Linux.
The author of this article is a long-time Mac writer. I dont think the majority of Mac Users I know would begin to know what to do with linux. Setting it up isn’t for the faint of heart. However, it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility to set it up for them, show them where everything is, (browser, e-mail, word processor, pdf viewer, etc.), and send them on their way.
It really depends on what the end-user is using the computer for in the first place. Without all of the viruses and spyware, basic end users can be completely happy with Linux.
Title is flame bait.
Article has some truths in it.
Firefox stopped pop-up for me.
Linux CAN be used as a desktop system but there are just alot of things that will NEVER make it an option for some users because they lack knowledge to do certain things. Installing Nvidia drivers CAN be a pain if you hadn’t looked at a command line before. I’ve had issues setting up SAMBA before. I’m a linux novice but I atleast know a thing or two about programmng and the shell, I can imagine a person interested in linux but without knowing as much as I know can be very easily turned away before even getting to play with cd burning software or playing with photos.
it wouldnt take much to make a one click installer that is distro specific but synaptic is only a click or two so whats the problems..
oh you mean every tom,dick, and harry writing some program and offering on the website and you click to install, they could do that as well… nothing stops them… heck look at phoenix it was a zip file and all you did was unzip and put it in your home folder or wherever and make you a shortcut and away you went…
i made a one click installer that ran from a cd to isntall some stuff on lindows4.5 i think it was…. really simple stuff…
I agree that Linux is not YET ready today for the mainstream desktop. Yes, your grandmother (if she has DSL or Cable and does not use AOL) can be up and running on the internet in the time it takes to boot Knoppix, but the vast majority of Linux distributions still aren’t at the “it just works” level of Windoze or OS X.
However, I disagree strongly with the use of the word “never”. It is ludicrous, in the light of how far Linux has come in its mere 10+ years of existence, to say that in the next ten years it could not have the ease of use of Windows and OS X, at least to the point that PC makers would be willing to pre-install on their desktops.
The technologies and efforts are there and getting it done: HAL, DBUS, inotify, Xen, freedesktop.org, etc.
To say otherwise is just spreading FUD.
“I dont think the majority of Mac Users I know would begin to know what to do with linux.”
Which is sortof the point. If you have a Mac running OS X, then why Linux?
BUT, as a long time Mac user, I have set up Gentoo for both the x86 and PPC. Not that difficult. What to do with it? Good point. After all, I have OS X…
But, again, I am not someone you know.
What do you mean Linux on the Desktop is a no-no … I have been using it for the last two years exclusively, my wife uses it (and she loves it … she is a social worker). So the whole discussion about Linux being ready for the Desktop is moot … it already happens and more and more people switch and linux is getting more popular every day.(interresting tv interview from the german broadcaster ZDF … were a student switched). And as has been pointed out hundreds of times … the average people don’t know what to do when sth goes wrong with windows … and it usually does and they have to call somebody. I have spend hours trying to sort out my father/ father in law and neighbours computers, because sth. went wrong or suddenly did not work – what a waste of time. For me the final straw was about two – three years ago, when i surfed the net with WinXP and suddenly my laptop kept on rebooting every 10 seconds (a virus, can’t remember the name – there are so many (-:, quiet well known though). I didn’t install anything or double-clicked anyhing … just simple browsing.
Sorry but Windows is not ready for the desktop. I stick with linux … works perfectly fine for me.
I can’t get above 800×600 resolution and the sound doesn’t work.
Which model? I installed it on my T30 and my G41 and everything worked fine, with the exception of the wireless card on the G41, but compiling the Madwifi driver was easy enough to do. Ubuntu, Mepis, and others detected the wiress fine on the G41. Fedora and Libranet were the only ones I tried that had a problem.
I tried Debian…same thing. I try FreeBSD and …bamm! Everything works.
I didn’t really have a problem with Debian either. I agree that FreeBSD is pretty good. I also like OpenBSD.
…at least I can have the 1280×1024 resolution…
To my knowledge, IBM Thinkpads don’t do 1280×1024. Thinkpads come either with a screen that can do 1024×768, or one that can do 1400×1050.
Windows will not ask you for drivers for a simple dvd burner. And guess what, there is free burning software for windows too, along with explorer being able to burn also. Too much FUD from linux advocates.
Here’s the deal. Linux is fragmented, which is it’s good thing but also the reason it will never be dominate. Linux does what it does well, being a server OS.
“that will NEVER make it an option”
how can you say that? you know the future? linux is progressing rapidly so who knows what next month, year hold…
if you have never used a command line before then you are doing a lot of stuff the SLOW way even in windows…. i have my shortcut to the command prompt right down there on my taskbar
but yes, if a user has never used one, thn linux probably isnt ready for them right now and may not ever be since they are the type of user that does not want to LEARN a damn thing to even use windows much less linux, yea they “know computer”, what they know is to click on the big E to go to AOL and type in a KEYWORD and that is about it….
finished letting the page load and yep firefox blocked the popup…
Yep, your probably more like myself. Someone who looks at OSX and sees *nix with bling. I was referring to Uncle Joe types who wouldnt even use a computer if it weren’t for e-mail and e-bay.
This article is flat out accentuating the worst parts of linux. The author could just have said, “Chevrolet bad, Cadillac good” and been making his point.
As he is a long-time mac author I can’t help but think he’s aiming the article at would-be switchers. No more Windows you say! Don’t go linux, go Mac!
I hoenstly don’t mean this in a bad way.
I know that the KDE and other windowing developers care a lot about user experience, but in general are Linux developer working with the mind set of “I would like my mom to be able to use this feature I’m developing” or “I need to make sure I develop this in a way that require no technical interaction from the user”.
I’m not sure if I personally care if my mom can use Linux. Could she now? No way.. Do I care if she every can? I’m not sure….
“And guess what, there is free burning software for windows too, along with explorer being able to burn also. Too much FUD from linux advocates.”
k3b is more functionally equivalent to Nero than the free Windows software or Explorer’s builtin capabilities.
i’m a sysadmin of a windows 2000/2003 domain with mostly dualboot FC3 (using winbind) and Win2k/XP desktops. I have to say that the article in my opinion is mostly true.
I would even go further and say that a Windows 2000 and especially 2003 is by far superior for many server “tasks”, especially for small and medium sized LANs.
There’s really no comparision for features like central authentication, automated software distribution, automated connection of printers depending on the room etc. and everthing quite easy to use. Some people here seem to know surpisingly little about Windows servers.
There are probably still some advantages in linux for some webservers, clusters and some highend scalability stuff etc., but in my opinion Windows servers are gaining momentum quickly also there.
If the linux comm. wants to have commercial vendors to write drivers they have to create a stable driver interface at least for a major release, i.e. a driver for 2.6 works for every 2.6 kernel.
Also the speed of KDE and GNOME is quite poor, s.th. should be done there too – maybe X itself needs to be replaced?
Other issues are the poor booting speed (i know s.th. is on the way there) and of course the non-standardized package management. Hope s.th. like autopackage will solve the package issue soon.
“Linux is a fantastic operating system, so long as the user never, ever, ever has to install any new software or hardware on it.”
…from a guy who claims to be running Debian?
Even giving him the hardware, how can he claim that installing software is hard? apt-get is far and away easier than any Windows install process. Mac comes close (ignoring Fink) only because so many of its installs amount to “drag this folder wherever you want it.”
alittle rant;)
What people dont get is, most if not all the people who will actually read that story will have some sort of interest in linux/solaris/windows etc.
Your average user(as in someone who only cares about the computers output and not having to think or remember too much while doing that) doesnt give a damn what they are running.
Average joe can but wont install Windows/OSX/Linux/Gnu/Linux;)
The true average user will always call the local tech guy or the helpline etc, and as much as we’d like to think power in the hands of the user is good, for most it’s an annoyance.
This doesnt have to imply anything about intelligence, the computer is a TOOL(or at least it should be to the majority), sure everyone likes to feel in control, the majority of real world users just want an all in one type writer music player web browser web cam blah blah blah name another cool/interesting or fluff tech.
We fail as more technically minded users.
Yes of course it’s ok to comment on things without something practical to show for it.
But i think we forget, most people dont give a damn about all this. they dont care if they are running bellybellydodah v3. as long as there computer does what they need they dont care.
All of these OS can be the ultimate desktop system, but i believe we should take some control away from the users of a desktop system let the computer do the boring stuff, the user doesnt care as long as it turns on beeps and does what they expect.
Sure humans have a thing about being in control, it makes us feel safer, in reality we have very little control.(if these new eu patents are approved, it goes to prove that point if not i’ll be happy and not quite as cynical) aslong as most user have the illusion of control they’ll be happy because at the end of the day it’s a tool to most people, we need to get over the virtues of these machines. The average user enjoys a peice of music, but that doesnt meaning they wanna know a certain riff, or learn an instrument.
Theres no such thing as a universal interface, users should be treated with respect, but not all users have equal useage
patterns, and we are silly to think otherwise. It’s nice to dream of the universal computer, but everyone has different needs. Some people want a beautiful work of art, some want a donkey mule to do what they want. And even the geeks will admit the tech stuff is much more fun when most of the boring stuff is handed to the lower parts of your brain, rememver the days of learning those commands how this and that worked, sure it was fun, but remember all those mind numbing details? I’m sure your glad your dont need to deal with them that often in a more consious way? Most users see anything other than exactly what they wanted as mind numblying boring.
they want a tool we want a work of art.
and yes i’m aware i’ve just made a very commonly known point and havent provided anything new, but then i’m not rambling at the average user, we tend to forget most people really dont give a crap about computers, just the results.
yeah I suck at english, and yes it is my first lanuage but well….
heh told you it was a rant.
Hopefully this will be considered on topic;) if not mod this thing down.
“Or she could actually use the tools that are available on linux like openoffice and the GIMP….HEY thats a thought…”
Except that OOo and GIMP do not equal their Win/OSX equivalents. Especially GIMP, which for a free app is pretty decent, doesn’t get anywhere close to Photoshop, IMO.
I am just saying it’d be nice to have developers, software and hardware alike, stand behind Linux.
…, I agree to the fact that Linux sucks as a Desktop Operating System, however I have to state that the other Operating Systems, that I experienced namely OSX and win32 (in various flavors) suck more.
And this is for a very simple reason: If something is broken, in Linux I can either fix it, or find out why it’s broken, and why it can’t be fixed.
Is far as my experiences reach this is not the case on win32 and OSX. Especially on win32, if something works, everything is okay, if something is broken, most of time it can’t be fixed, and it’s impossible to find out why it broke.
This opinion is of course based on my personal experiences.
While I will wholeheartedly agree that the fabled “Linux Desktop Experience” isn’t quite here yet, I do think this guy is sensationalizing things a bit. I have never had any hardware problems whatsoever with drives or major devices in Linux. The primary failure with regards to devices under Linux is in the printer direction. However, as time marches on, many manufacturers are beginning to adhere more strictly to common specs and Linux gains a growing multitude of drivers. In fact, I have a Mitsumi 7-in-1 card reader/floppy drive that Linux has no problem with, yet Windows can’t see to save its life. And who the hell installs an OS these days? Certainly not Joe User. If it doesn’t come pre-installed, the family IT guy inevitably does that anyway (although I still believe most modern distros have a cleaner, faster, easier install than Windows).
As for installation/program management, Linux is light-years ahead of Windows and Apple. Most distros offer powerful package management systems (pacman and apt come to mind) that make program installation a functional activity, not guesswork or hunting. These package managers typically also sport user-oriented GUIs that are simple and intuitive. The problem here is a shift in approach. Windows/Mac users are used to going out and actively having to find applications to address their needs. I believe a system that finds and installs the application for me (based on a search or a need) infinitely more pleasing. Perhaps that’s just personal preference, though. Those clamoring for consistency would presumably love the consistent interface to installing every single application.
And regarding the comments about a consistent UI, people really need to actually look at the apps they use in Windows before making this argument. Hell, there aren’t even many Microsoft apps that comply with a consistent UI, let alone third party offerings. Face it, UI consistency is generally not that important to users, but even if it were, GNOME or KDE provide a profoundly consistent environment.
Many of the comparisons between Windows and Linux are unfairly weighted toward Windows from the beginning because many reviewers and “pundits” have an idealized view of Windows usability. I work in a mixed OS IT house and we get way more (numerically and proportionally) complaints about Windows problems than Mac/Linux.
I think that Linux is currently less usable than Windows in *certain areas* (namely hardware support), yet much moreso in others. My girlfriend and her friends made the switch and none of them have technical backgrounds. Since that time, I have barely had to support them (I’m yet another family IT guy
, whereas with Windows I was constantly putting out fires and reteaching Outlook’s menus and buttons, etc. Things just work, the OS updates itself, programs are intuitive, simple and consistent and applications are becoming task-transparent. Most importantly, viruses and crashes are scarce (none to date).
The learning curve is steep at first, but not very long at all. The main problem is that people fear and resist change to an amazing degree.
Boris
P.S. OS X is, in my opinion an incredible example of functional usability and general consistency. It’s task-oriented. This is the direction I believe *nix UIs are going and I couldn’t be happier. Most of the points I made above, except where noted, typically don’t apply as harshly to OS X as they do to Windows 9x/ME/XP.
Except that OOo and GIMP do not equal their Win/OSX equivalents. Especially GIMP, which for a free app is pretty decent, doesn’t get anywhere close to Photoshop, IMO.
Does it have to be?
Honestly, I think that Photoshop is oversold. Not many people actually need the features that Photoshop has, that gimp is lacking, and quite a few cost-conscious people end up buying either Micromedia Fireworks or Photoshop Elements anyway.
I also think that a lot of people are using “Linux” in really sloppy ways these days. I do think that “desktop linux” is a myth, primarily because “linux” just a kernel and minimal set of utilities you can use to build a large variety of systems.
Linux is too fragmented. There’s no cohesiveness for an entire desktop OS. You’ve got little groups of developers going in umpteen different directions. Five years ago, I wish someone big would’ve grabbed the kernel by the balls and put something cohesive in user space, but it might be too late at this point.
In a bit of irony it’s the “freedom” of linux that hampered it when trying to make it on the desktop. Now its 2005 (5 years after year of the linux desktop) and nothing has really changed enough to make much of a dent on windows.
The only chance at this point (and its a small chance) is to start standardizing on a common desktop.
I think the article did have some FUD statements, like you would never use Linux unless you never plan to install any new software or hardware. Here’s where I see Linux needing some help, and it has little to do with the OS itself:
-distribution – as long as Windows is included with just about every PC sold, it is not going to lose much market share. Dell and others need to be convinced to give every computer buyer an option. Perhaps a commercial Linux OS like Mandriva or Suse can compete here (although it would be nice to have the option to have a non-commercially supported Linux OS pre-installed, such as Ubuntu, Debian, etc.) This alone can solve many other “problems” Linux has (like the customizability I mention at the bottom)
-marketing – virtually zero for Linux. One way to market Linux is for “smart” computer users. Not “smart” as in geeky, but smart just like there are smart shoppers who don’t get caught paying more for something they could have gotten much cheaper (or for free) elsewhere. If you make people feel stupid for paying for stuff they could have gotten for free, they’ll listen.
-usability – this is a big issue, but not as huge as you think. The Linux desktop is quite usable nowadays. It isn’t slow, it isn’t cryptic. But users nowadays are desktop “experts” in the sense that they have used Windows or the Mac for a long time. Something very minor can become a noticable irritant because of their prior experience. For example you could make the file explorer behave more like Windows or like the old Macs (the new mac finder is horrible). Ubuntu tried this but didn’t do it right. Also make more GUI frontends for configuration things, such as the alsa gui mixer.
-customizability – make it even easier for users to customize their desktops. When bundling Linux with a computer, customize it to the hardware it is running on. After installing Ubuntu, I had to do all sorts of things to get it to run right on my computer. The screen resolution couldn’t be changed, the sound didn’t work, SATA drives not supported without upgrading the kernel, etc. Maybe make a tool that generates a script that saves the changes you made to the default install, so you can share those changes more easily with others running the same hardware as you.
I’m a Linux enthusiast who enjoys a good flaimbait article, so I was somewhat disappointed to find a well-written article that provides a decent summary of the desktop OS world today.
But notice I said, “today.” That’s the problem with most articles that compare FOSS software to proprietary products. Who can predict what will happen to the companies that own these products in the next 50 years? 200 years? I’m not predicting that GNU/Linux will be the standard OS for Starfleet or anything, but when you consider how long “forever” is (i.e. the duration of protection under the GPL), it really weighs heavily in the direction of openness.
So, good article, but he should be careful throwing around the “forever” predictions. You humans tend to promote a pretty shortsighted view of history.
“It’s a street rod geared toward performance over convenience.”
That’s actually a common misconception but it’s entirely wrong. Linux itself is geared toward performance to some level; but it has also geared itself a bit towards convenience. The rest of the OS, which I assume he is talking about the whole thing and not just the kernel: Is geared toward elegance, reliability, etc.
Let’s compare:
1.) Config files: A pretty slow way to store and load settings.
– The Windows registry: Believe it or not, this is supposed to be fast. And if it weren’t for its overuse it would be; and it is.
2.) Protocols: Most Linux/Unix/BSD protocols are ascii. Except for the rare use of RPC (which is binary). Microsoft generally relies on RPC (we’re talkin network btw, not local); a very fast protocol. Does anyone know, is VNC ascii or binary?
3.) X11 is designed for flexibility, and I think x.org aims for reliability too: Windows explorer is designed for blazin speed: The graphics engine + environment + file-manager + the kitchen sink all in explorer.exe. No wonder My Computer pops open; it isn’t opening a program
.
Even Macintosh is looking to gain speed by using the gpu (a good and emulated idea; so far no one else has it right/released).
Where does this silly speed misconception come from?
“-marketing – virtually zero for Linux. One way to market Linux is for “smart” computer users. Not “smart” as in geeky, but smart just like there are smart shoppers who don’t get caught paying more for something they could have gotten much cheaper (or for free) elsewhere. If you make people feel stupid for paying for stuff they could have gotten for free, they’ll listen.”
Hey that’s a great angle! I have met a lot of people like that who are quite willing to learn some things now to avoid headaches in the future; they’re probably just the type to adopt something other than Microsoft without selling their souls to Steve Jobs…
Her: “yeah, it looks easy enough to use. but can you get Photoshop for it? Office?”
Me: “well no, but it has a PS-like app called GIMP. It has an Office-like app called OpenOffice”
Unfortunately to the general public, Not being able to download and doubleclick drivers, and not having the exact applications they’re looking for just isn’t good enough.
Adobe, last I heard, has begun to develop some of their apps into Linux ports, but when will that be done? The answer for when MS will port Office to Linux is an even easier answer.
One word: Codeweavers
If you want to run these apps now, Codeweavers will make it relatively easy and painless to do so.
The rest of the article, while more or less truthful, was obviously written in an inflammatory manner. He could have been a lot more open about workarounds, and about how far Linux has come, rather than focusing only on the bad parts of the user experience.
I have put many many many people on SuSE – (the last I looked it was a Linux Distro and not any version of Windows). Most after a short adjustment (none if they are new to computers) nearly all love it. This authors problem is that he either tries something like Slack or Gentoo and not one of the better Distros for non-tech users or he just does not stick with it long enough to get used to the way Linux does things.
Many of those that I have set up on LInux once they become used to the way SuSE does things find it very plesant to use and several who have to use both OSs have said that they find Windows the harder to use for day to day activities.
True in some areas Linux does not do things as easily as Windows – However, in other areas it outshinds Windows. I have put it on the desk top in businesses and in homes and in nearly all of those it was a good fit. Why? because overall – the whole package works and get the job done at least overall effort over the long run.
“On Linux, you plug in a DVD burner, and — nothing happens.”
Funny, I bought myself an Aopen dvd burner as an chistmasgift for myself, came hom and plugged it in on my winXP/Debian dual-boot system. In windows it was a no show while in Linux it just found it and configured it and i was burning DVD’s whithing minutes, while with windows i had to do an firmware upgrade and numerous reboots before it even detected it.
About 2-3 months ago I set up and Debian testing for my mother who is an MCP and never has never used linux before (she also works at the salvation army where she puts together old PC’s and shipps them to africa and other poor countries). Now, 2-3 months later the only time she boots into windows is when she needs DC++ (which I found an Linux version of just recently so no more dual-boot from now on prolly). And she’s also installing Ubuntu, DSL and Minislack on the computers the Salvation Army shipps off. Mind she does not only surf the web and check e-mails but also does photoediting (with Photoshop through crossover) and webpages (dreamweaver through photoshop), She especially found diff and gthumb to be usefull since she has duplicates of html files and photos scattered across her harddrive. Sure there are programs for windows that do the same, but for free? Now to my knowledge.
The article does however bring up some valid points that the Linux community needs to acknowledge and work on.
I recently set up 6 brandnew Windows XP and 2003 server computers for a family member’s business(They chose Windows
over Linux against my advice) Over the past 2 months I have spent more time trouble shooting one annoyance or the other on these Dell systems than I have spent trouble shooting stuff on my regular IT job…convenience my foot.
I run a Dell Latitude 640 Windows XP for my job which dual boots Suse Linux 9.2. My Suse Linux detects more hardware than the windows and does not need a reboot every 3 days…convenience my foot
The fact is that most Windows admins are IT half-wits and are totally lost without their GUI and their factory installed configurations. They approach Linux with the same attitude and complain about issues which a minor research will fix.
Me and my children use Linux Ubuntu for everything at home and I only use Windows because it is the desktop the company
I work for insists on. As a Linux enthusiast who uses Windows on at work I have the experience on both to say that
Windows XP cannot hold a candle to Linux.
I can’t agree with the article. I’ve used Linux for two years now, before that is was common set of Windows 3.1/95/98. I decided to switch when a virus utterly destroyed Windows 98, even if I had applied patches and had patched virus scanner. I started with Debian even if it was stated Debian is not good for first time user – and I found out it was true
I switched to Mandrake which simply just works. I haven’t used Windows XP so I don’t know what happens there when one plugs say new HP multiuse printer (scanner & copy machine & printer), but when I plugged HP to USB port of my computer Mandrake popped up new window stating it found a new printer and told what driver it is going to install for it. All I had to was to click Next. Mandrake also installed scanner software automatically. I also have HP Laserjet which Mandrake found and configured automatically.
When I needed a cd burning software (as I didn’t know any Linux software for that beforehand) I typed to Mandrake package manager search toolbar “cd burning” and k3b was found and installed. Back in Windows days I remember searching in web for software for the task I needed, ended up with tons of programs but they were not free or they didn’t do the job they promised they did. It took time to find a app that really worked. IMHO searching and installing software in Mandrake couldn’t be easier. Now I’ve changed to Ubuntu just sake of trying something new and I found out it is as easy in Ubuntu it was on Mandrake.
IMHO Ubuntu and Mandrake are more ready for the desktop than Windows. Reposities means someone has evaluated the packages already so user doesn’t really need to know what program specific he needs but only what he wants software to do and enter that as search criteria. No need for browsing for Google and searching tons of pages for one program.
I use Ubuntu Linux and I like it. My girlfriend likes to use it. My parents are happy with Mandrake. My brother uses Fedora. Only one person left in my family who still uses Windows but I’m sure not for long anymore
i’ve been using solaris shells off and on for 12 years. and been using linux for 3 years. i still find that linux is a geek toy, server OS, or corp workstation. i don’t think it’s ready for the big-time yet. i discourage friends and family from trying it, unless they willing to invest some time in it.
there’s a lot of truth in the article.
While I like and use Solaris, Linux isn’t a toy. It *can be made into a toy* that doesn’t mean that it *is a toy*.
The current — and many past — top 500 HPC systems are dominated by Linux. If that isn’t big time, I am straining to know what is.
On Linux, you plug in a DVD burner, and — nothing happens.
They must have forgot to put in the DVD. On my desktop, the one I’m currently browsing from, I installed my own DVD burner. Without installing any software or configuring anything on Mandrake 10.x k3b will pop up whenever I insert a blank CDR or DVDR. And it burns, although only at 4x because Jorg Schilling’s cdrecord is a POS, but that ain’t Linux’s fault. The latest distros should have solved that problem with cdrtools.
The point is this stuff is coming together nicely and the rate at which these problems are remedied is increasing. Once there’s a fix, once hardware is supported, it will always be. So if that’s the only thing keeping Linux from the Desktop, Microsoft and Sun and Apple should be shakin in their boots.
“One word: Codeweavers
If you want to run these apps now, Codeweavers will make it relatively easy and painless to do so.”
I agree, and I use Codeweavers myself because it’s taken the headache out of WINE for me.
However I still think it’d be nice to have a real Linux version of this software.
Crossover Office is nice though, and Photoshop 7 runs well on it, even with an old PIII 866Mhz.
Until there is a unified desktop then there’s no reason of really talking about “Linux” which is really a misnomer since you have BSDs and Solaris in the mix, ever having something like 5% or so in the future.
In fact, all of the Open Unixes should get together, but don’t see that happening. It’s just more anecdoces from fanboys who “wish” to see “linux” on the desktop take off.
There’s really no problem. You have BSD, Solaris, Linux on the server and windows and OSX on the desktop.
I mean dvdrtools
I have been using computers since I was 12. I have participated in all the computer wars. C64 better than Atari XL, Atari TOS better than Amiga OS, and finally Windows better than Linux. My first programming language was Assembler and have always loved playing with computers. I have always been an uber geek, and I thought I’d always be. Now, 20 years into my career, I have given in. I became the dumb user y’all are tlaking about, because I am SICK of it. Sick of troubleshooting my friend’s PCs, sick of reinstalling hosed PC’s in my free time, sick of updating firmware to get crap to work, sick of installing crappy USB printer drivers that hose up everything. And I am sick of LINUX. I simply don’t tolerate faulty software anymore. I don’t tolerate that Linux cannot configure my soundcard out of the box, even 6 years after I tried installing Linux for the first time. I don’t tolerate that CUPS cannot print to my network printer. I don’t tolerate that I can’t mount my NTFS formatted Firewire drive for write access. I don’t tolerate that $90 for my crossover office was a waste of money, because Quicken produces random popups on Linux.
I installed Win2K Profesisonal on my Mom’s desktop 5 years ago. I locked her access down and installed an IDSN router for internet access. I have not had ONE SINGLE support call on it, No virus, no nothing. I use WinXP myself, and it has not crashed once. Good luck all y’all Linux guys fiddling with kernels. Have fun loading the 1000th distro that looks exactly like any other one out there. I have done it, I have been there. Now I am a dumb user. Call me on my ski vacation or on the golf course when Linux is ready for me. I may even buy you pizza to install it for me. LOL.
I have to say that some of the points he brings up are true, but I run Linspire on my Dell Laptop, and can burn a DVD with no problem, just downloaded one piece of software from CNR, and that was it. Plus I can plug and ply my Dell Jukebox with no problem. I also use Ubuntu on my Older G3 iBook and it works like a charm never had a problem.
I think the problem lies with packege managers, I first started off with Red Hat 9 and couldnt figure out how to install anything with RPM, but then I moved to Linspire (I know some of you hate it, but it works well for those who want to use Linux but dont know their way around yet) Now I’m using Ubuntu, which is the best one that I’ve tried to use, so I think avoiding RPM for beginners is a must unless they have to, that way they can learn a Linux system then move on to RPM and tar.
And I’m originally from Chicago. I’m almost ashamed to admit it after this piece of bad journalism.
But thanks, Adam, for at least being frank enough to open label it as flamebait.
Hi, I totally respect your opinion about Linux. It is a little funny though (if you don’t mind) that you posted from a dell.com IP address. Also, did I read correctly that you take support calls from your Mom? You’re a damn good son! I would charge homemade brownies for that service.
In my experience, once you get past the initial setup & configuration period (which again, would be solved for novices by bundling Linux with the computer preconfigured, hint hint Dell), Linux is as easy to maintain as Windows.
Nonsense. I used SUSE 9.3 until last months. When I connected the printer for the first time or my new SoundBlaster Live! a popup windows came up: “Found new hardware. Do you want to configure it?”
With Kanotix it was even better: after installing the sound card and logging in again I found it already configured!
It is however true that we could do with some sort of unified standards when it comes to installing software. This is the only real problem that I see, possibly preventing a much wider use of desktop Linux.
There’s no reason to change Linux into a desktop OS unless the fans clamor for it.
Someone take the kernel, greed some of the userspace and fork everything.
That takes cash….like maybe IBM who has no balls or incentive except to exploit workers.
Oh well, we have OSX for Unix on the desktop
I have a hope : linux standard base.
Many distros already support it. I think in a few years, there will be a common installer for all distros, probably based on apt/.deb (surival of the fittest, apt is awesome compared with yum/urpmi!)
Oh, by the way, the LSB is designed by the copyright owner of the UNIX brand (opengroup http://opengroup.org/certification/lsb-home.html), so I guess it’s serious stuff.
I rather enjoyed his use of the word “VolksLinux.” Did he coin that, or has that been around?
Most people will use what ever you give them. It just so happens the that the millions of PC’s sold have MS Windows on them. Where I work we have VMS terminals that access data bases that we need. Once you show someone how it works there fine with it. I just installed a GNU/Linux system for my mother in law she is not at all what you would call “computer savy”. I simpley showed her where her Internet, Mail, and word processor applications were. I’ve had no complaints at all. Regarding installation, do you really think that every person who uses a MS system can install it?
Liked to read this one.
Recall that Sonos home music system I wrote about recently? Its super-slick color handheld remote runs Linux. And Linux is at the heart of every TiVo digital video recorder. My Windows Media Center PVR freezes or otherwise drops the ball at least once a month. In four years of constant use, my TiVo hasn’t screwed up even once. And iPod owners who Google the words “iPod Linux” are in for a pleasant surprise.
I have an old wintv capture card.Great advantage the author doesn’t mention even once tis the fact that modern Linux comes with a lot of drivers not included in latest windows.Once started i could watch TV right away,sound is working also,nvidia nforce2 250GB chipset drivers are supported inmediedly so is the nforce gigabit lan chip and the SATA controller.
It’s a blessing not having to hunt all over the net for the latest windows drivers for just the few i described above.Linux today is depending on the distro just as ready for the desktop as is windows XP.Once everything is installed on windows you have to start working with the installed applications too just as on Linux.It’s prefectly feasonable to never use the console.
Another advantage with Linux is the great amount of fast mirrors.The MS update site is moreoften a disaster and terrible slow.
Knowing what you are doing is important when you cross the street also,you never know what might hit you if you don’t pay attention.So i would say Linux is absolutely desktop ready.
“If the linux comm. wants to have commercial vendors to write drivers they have to create a stable driver interface at least for a major release, i.e. a driver for 2.6 works for every 2.6 kernel. ”
Done.
What you meant was an ABI. Which won’t happen because it encourages binary only distribution and because writing a wrapper isn’t that big a deal if you honestly think your company has innovated anything in your hardware. Most hardware manufacturers are simply repackaging someone elses chipsets though, so they have nothing to hide at all. And even those chipset makers aren’t really innovating. I’m not saying they’re failing, just that 10/100 ethernet cards aren’t exactly bleeding edge, neither are ccd’s, usb interfaces, etc.
As source these drivers can all be installed with a moderately simple makefile.
Anyway, hardware support is bad in some areas; but amazing in others. Printer support is terrible; but so are most printers. I usually tell people if their printer isn’t supported in Linux it’s probably a piece of under-engineered junk; and I’m usually right because almost everything less than $200 seems to be….
Support for webcams stinks, it seems it always will. You have to buy the right ones; which isn’t so easy since so many of these guys are repackaging the same chipsets and not explicitly saying so (it should say on the front of the box, even if it’s in fine print).
Support for graphics cards is pretty stinkin good. Seriously, it is. Yea, ATI card drivers could improve, but their Windows drivers are not monachre of stability either
.
TV-Capture cards aren’t very good: Course you have to know what you’re doing to get a working one on Windows as well. A lot of them are just junk…
Those are the areas I’m aware of. Most people don’t really care so much for the freedom to go buy whatever part they want. No, they want to go buy a part and not have to buy it again! They wanna not spend $40 for ink because they have to buy a print-head too. They probably don’t wanna spend $40 on a low-grade garbage ccd that’s mostly software powered anyway. They’re not looking to do tv-capture; a lot of people do this, and that’s great but there are a lot of people who don’t and have no interest in it. And believe it or not but most (most defined as 2/3, all age groups combined) people aren’t computer gamers.
I think one of the biggest improvements lately to Linux desktop usability has been Windows people moving to Firefox. Seriously, browsing the web is that stinkin’ important to the typical home computer user.
Anyway, this is stupid; there’s a few sides to this argument:
1.) For Linux: Has probably been using it for quite a while and really loves learning (intelligent person).
2.) Anti-Linux: Tried it once, it didn’t butter his toast; he hates it. He doesn’t wanna live in a world where he might have to understand what he’s clicking (shock).
3.) For Linux: He tried it today, he happens to have a fairly “ancient” Pentium III; so it all worked. He likes that he didn’t have to install much, it came with so much.
4.) Anti-Linux: He used linux and Windows. He thinks he’s smarter than everyone else and that most people are too stupid to use Linux, or too lazy (intelligent dickwad).
I get most people in here? Yea, lots of bias I know; but it was fun insulting ya’ll.
Linux is being used on the DESKTOP by schools, businesses and government agencies. So those of you who simply can’t contain your “not ready for the desktop sentiments” because you had a bad experience or heard something from somebody in some forum somewhere on the Net, try focusing that energy into bitching about something else. How about the recent Supreme Court ruling? Or the Colorado Rockies losing 5 in a row? Or the fact that Billy Graham has decided to visit New York (instead of, say, Fallujah)?
“The fact is that most Windows admins are IT half-wits and are totally lost without their GUI and their factory installed configurations. They approach Linux with the same attitude and complain about issues which a minor research will fix.”
Absolutely. I know somebody here who sells computers he builds, but he wouldn’t put linux on them because he is to bloody lazy to learn (and customers would of course need support)
typical linux detractors – they all say they’ve used it and then say such stupid things. They’ve never really used it, all they do it recycle someone elses idiotic diatribe.
Stupid comments like “mom cant use it yet” just goes to show that they’ve never used it before. “It needs one click installs – show me a windows one click install! Linspire has a “Click and Run” if you want a Mom and Pop version. Office 2003 hasn’t even got common open dialogues – so much for a standard UI.
Most detractors who attempt to use linux are shown up for the dorks they are just because it looks slightly different and therefore they can’t work out how to use it i.e. they expect a Windows UI clone.
I could go on for pages but its a waste of keystrokes. If using Linux takes you out of your comfort zone, you’ve got the problem not Linux.
Linux is still not ready for the average user’s desktop. Just because Gnome and KDE is pretty doesn’t mean that it is intuitive or user-friendly. Neither are user-friendly enough for me to install on the average user’s desktop.
Hardware wise, while Linux has made great strides in this department, it is still not where it needs to be. I just installed Fedora4 this weekend. While it looks great, my NIC isn’t recognized. From experience, I know that this NIC is not supported but if the average joe tried to install it and it didn’t work, what would he do? Hop on the Internet and Google for Linux drivers for his NIC? (If it doesn’t work, and it is his only computer, how can he search forums?) Sorry, but if someone has to boot into Apple or Windows to search for a fix to his Linux installation, the clear answer will be to keep using their Apple or Windows OS. Should he buy a Linux compatible NIC? (While acceptable to many, more technical users, this is not an acceptable solution for the average user.
The author’s statement “On Linux, you plug in a DVD burner, and — nothing happens.” Is true to a degree. Yeah, we have a lot of OS fans here who know much more than the average user, and they have gotten it to work, but let’s be honest, Linux still has a way to go on both the hardware recognition and UI front before it will be ready for the masses, regardless of how many of our DVD burners work.
Choice. Choice is a wonderful thing but a great many people don’t care if software is free or not as long as it works and it’s easy to use. People actually do vote with their wallets and if most are still sticking with or switching to costly, proprietary software then that means that cost is not an issue for them and they care about something other than free software.
User-interfaces. Just because people can get together and create yet another window manager doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea. For the growth of Linux on the desktop, the idea is destructive. That’s part of the reason RedHat introduced BlueCurve. So that they can attempt to make a consistent UI across most apps (whether they are KDE or Gnome based). Sure, it means that you have to have multiple WM libraries to use the best of the available software for Linux (k3b, evolution, you name it) but how many distros nowadays don’t have this bloat. Let’s get ONE WM and polish it until it shines.
In a few more years it may be ready, but not now. Not this year. How many different office suites do we need? How many browsers? Another thing is community. The Linux community needs to get back to how it was years ago; similar to Gentoo’s and Ubuntu’s today. In a word, helpful. Anyone telling someone “RTFM” is as destructive to Linux as Microsoft or SCO. All criticism is not FUD. FUD has become the term that is now used to disregard one’s comments rather than think about them. It’s a sad state of affairs that Microsoft is now becoming more responsive to users’ needs while the Linux distros continue to fragment. Let’s hope this trend reverses itself.
“Linux is still not ready for the average user’s desktop.”
The key word being “average”, yes? Meanwhile, the average user may have trouble configuring their email, installing an app, learning to copy and paste, changing their wallpaper, figuring out where to plug in their usb mouse (you should have seen the one somebody showed me after they bent the hell out of it trying to shove it in upside down), or even remembering where they saved a file even on a Windows machine. If someone wants to be extreme out about it, they could argue than no OS is ready for the common user, since there is guaranteed to always be some quirk or other which will completely unhinge them at some point and send them scurrying to or calling up the local “computer expert”. And if there’s more than one quirk, then how many quirks equals a problem? And problems does it take before it’s “unusable”?
While Linux may be less user friendly than Windows, Windows’ own friendliness can easily have people pulling their hair out or simply shutting the machine down. That’s if Sasser doesn’t shut it down for them first.
I don’t mean to offend, but your post implies that you’re a little more ignorant than you try to let on about desktops. First off, I would really like some solid examples of how UI in GNOME, let’s say, is worse than in Windows. I’m tired of the recycled “Just because Gnome and KDE is pretty doesn’t mean that it is intuitive or user-friendly” truisms with no basis in reality or fact. Back it up.
Secondly, window managers have little-to-nothing to do with anythign you’re talking about. I’m pretty sure you’re talking about widget sets, because window managers manage the placement of windows on the desktop. They don’t draw buttons, text boxes, images, fields, scroll bars or anything else. That’s the widget set’s job.
Now, you completely drop off the deep end of reality when you imply that a completely consistent UI is a necessity to the desktop experience. If this were true, Windows and OS X are screwed. Go ahead. Open up MS Office. Now open AIM. Now Windows Media Player/Winamp/Trillian/Acrobat/Photoshop/Nero/anything. None of them are consistent, and those are just a sample of the most commonly used apps in the Windows world. Hell, most MS apps don’t have a consistent UI *between releases*. Check out the HIGs that KDE and GNOME offer and do a little research before posting uninformed tripe about this. I’m tired of people crowing about this when the market leaders have some of the worst UI I’ve ever seen.
About the proliferation of applications: the reason they exist is because the fulfill a need. IE is crap. That’s why Firefox exists and thrives. So to answer your question, we need as many browsers as it will take until someone writes one that works well. Nobody is forcing you to use all the other ones out there. Choice is good. Remember that. Besides, in the OSS world code is typically shared. That’s the beauty of the whole thing. Nobody’s reinventing the wheel here. And this isn’t indicative of divisiveness in the community.
And finally, I don’t know who’s told you to RTFM lately, but I visit Linuxquestions and other such sites frequently and have NEVER encountered someone says such a thing. In fact, the only places I have seen such responses have been in development mailing lists. And even those are rapidly declining. The community is getting better, not worse. Ubuntu and Gentoo are fine examples of a similar mentality all over the Linux world. They are not islands. You may just have to experience it before regurgitating your foggy stumblings from 5 years ago. By disseminating misinformation and reinforcing collective ignorance you do more to hurt the community than help it.
I apologize for the vitriol, but I read the same things over and over on this and other sites and I really do believe it’s just groupthink that’s become so pervasive people actually think it’s true now.
Have a great day.
I actually think the guy is right, but misses a few important points. First, I agree that it still is a little more difficult to set up and manipulate. OK, so that lends weight to his argument about it not for the “average” Joe computer guy. But…..
What about having someone set up a nice Linux distro, hook it up and turn it loose with Uncle Joe. He doesn’t have to manage it much..just use the thing. Most people don’t manage their computers anyway! Hook it up to the internet and let him go for 6 months.
Come back in 6 months and I bet that the Linux machine will be running like a pussycat and Uncle Joe will say, “hey, look at this thing I did!” or something like that…
If he were running Windows, he would be saying, “well, I keep getting these pop-ups and the computer is really slow now. Also, every now and then I get these error boxes, but I don’t know what they mean.
(Mac guys….if he were running a mac things would be OK too, but that’s not what this article was about).
So, in ONE sense he is right. You DO have to have some “know how” to make it all work. But in another sense, Linux is not only READY…it’s better because of all of the problems that the guy WON’T have when running his machine.
Just a thought.
I recently swapped my CD burner with a new DVD burner on my box with daul boot Mandrake 10.1 and Windows XP. Mandrake immediately recognized the drive and plays DVD movies flawlessly. Windows recognizes the drive but only for data. It still cannot play DVDs without the search for and installation of drivers.
The second point is the article fails (as is typical) to recognize the ease of installation of programs with URPMI and similar. Installing software with URPMI is easier than any software installation on Windows. Sometimes installing software on Linux distributions is incredibly simple, other times it is not as simple. The article implies that it is always difficult.
I don’t really think this qualifies as flamebait; he points out how useful and good Linux IS. I quote:
To the contrary: the fact that Linux requires its users to get their fingernails dirty from time to time is considered a strength, not a drawback.
Linux is the ultimate OS for people who know what they’re doing.
He even mentions Linspire and Ubuntu as being increasingly good Linux-for-the-masses. Really, the only two things I see to disagree with are his characterization of installing normal programs (Vital components and hardware, we agree) and his contention that Linux will never get to the desktop.
He seems neither uninformed nor maliciously ranting to me, anyway.
Caustic, I agree with you, Windows has its own problems. However, Windows has less of a fight on its hands. They only have to keep the users that they have. In order for Linux to grow on the desktop, it has to a) take users away from Windows and b) be a better alternative than the other OSes out there like Apple. It is usually easier for a company to maintain inertia than to build momentum (Just look at Intel/AMD. AMD has better chips but Intel has recognition and production power.) I think that there is a message in the fact that Mac users (pre Steve Jobs’ announcement of the Mactel) that Apple’s computer sales were dramatically increasing, even with a variety of free Linuxes out there (way too many in my opinion). That means, IMHO, that there is something that Linux is not offering to enough of those that want to switch.
“m experience, I know that this NIC is not supported but if the average joe tried to install it and it didn’t work, what would he do? Hop on the Internet and Google for Linux drivers for his NIC? (If it doesn’t work, and it is his only computer, how can he search forums?) ”
same can be said of windows…. and a LOT more nics require windows drivers
“then that means that cost is not an issue for them and they care about something other than free software.”
uh, it is called this is what was installed on the computer when i bought it and most probably dont even know you can change what is on there
“Let’s get ONE WM and polish it until it shines”
so WHO gets to define shine, your shine may be my dull, my shine may be bobs too-shiny… so how about we stick to choice
“How many different office suites do we need? How many browsers?”
i say all we need is gnumeric and skipstone… Will that make you happy? Does that mean you will now be satisfued sine we only have ONE! Once again, who picks the winner???
ok then, how about we all win and we all choose…
——
” In fact, the only places I have seen such responses have been in development mailing lists.”
and to clarify a bit, the reason you will get a RTFM from them is because there are other places to ask then butting into a devel list or some such asking how to do such and such…
—-k
“Just look at Intel/AMD. AMD has better chips but Intel has recognition and production power.”
but the big thing iss they have MONEY and can afford less profit per chip and offer the big deals to dell so they sell more….
“something that Linux is not offering”
yea it is called PREINSTALLED
i would say linux has gained a lot of momentum, in fact i would say it now has inertia and M$ is recognizing the fact and that is the reason they NOW consider it a threat…
This is not right. I don’t know where this guy is coming from but I am currently using Xandros3.0 Business.
Not only can I do all the things I used to do with windows but I can do it without being slammed every time I get on the internet. Its also easier to connect to a VPN or local network than on XP.
The only thing Xandros doesn’t do better is Video capture to CD/DVD. I have a computer just for that purpose with win2000 on it.
I just purchased a new 16x DVD burner. I installed it plugged it in and restarted the computer. Xandros found it on re-boot, configured it and the first time I started K3b it found it and asked me to set the default burn speed.
I have win4lin installed running Windows ME because some .doc files do not render properly when sent to other Word users and because I use Clikndesign 3d for making round cd labels and so far an easy to use cd labler does not exist for Linux. I also use it for Photo shop7 because I have grown so used to it and don’t want to learn Gimp and because I paid a kings ransom for photoshop.
Xandros installs in fifteen minutes and puts so much software on your computer you want to ask it to stop. XP just puts the os on and then you have to purchase hundreds of software titles and beg Microsoft to let you use your own computer. No thanks, I will never go back to windows. I am permently spoiled by Xandros.
No offense but it seems that this person has not used some of the software he is reviewing.
I realize this, but I was just pointing out that devel lists are the only place I’ve witnessed people being dismissive to ignorant users.
It’s a fair article and I think some good points are made.
However, I somewhat disagree with the desktop usability part. I think the desktop is perfectly useable for the average Joe-Bob, it just the administration that isn’t yet Joe-Bob friendly. (But neither is windows IMO) If setup properly by somebody who knows what they are doing then anybody can use it, including plug ‘n play.
the author misses the major point of the last decade of software engineering. The OS dosn’t matter that much any more. The big mover and shaker is the software / GUI that sits on top of the OS. The way the software is designed will attract your types users. Linux is just the base for this, just like DarwinBSD was the base for OSX. Right now Gnome / KDE projects are doing some soul searching and refining their software offerings. Thankfully a lot of distros out there saw what Ubuntu did and are following the move to make easy Installers and sane preconfigured environments. It appears the author wrote this artical back in 1999.
Linux = GNU + Kernel + Knome/KDE/<whatever> + Packager
GNU + Kernel = Fine, there’s one universal way to type on a console and read results from the monitor.
But when it comes to GUI + Packager…
the GUI on Linux feels like a brick wall someone made on a garden on top of the grass without a proper foundation. It breaks badly, feels cheap, and integration with the underlying OS is a bad joke, it goes for nearly 99% of gui environments in Linux/BSD’s/Solaris, etc.
Packager… like playing russian roulete, one in 10 times it shoots you.
Note: I have been using Debian for a long time now, its one of the few distros that actually
There. I said it. Now let me clarify.
Linux has been my primary operating system for about 7 years (my first distro was Slack 3.5 and I currently use Ubuntu Breezy), in fact, for most of that time it has been my sole operating system on my personal computer. I actively (when I get time) work on software, including Muine. So this is not just flamebait ^_^
Believe me, things are much, much better than they were in the days of Kernel 2.0 and FVWM2. HAL and D-Bus are nice and we’re heading toward a time when we have good looking apps that JustWorkTM. But we’re not there yet…
Is Linux (we’re talking about software here, like Gnome and such…) better than WinXP? In many ways, yes. We never did get the gaming support that we thought we would from Loki but installing software is far easier in Linux (especially with Synaptic) than in WinXP. With Linux, I never have to worry about viruses/malware/spyware/adware or go digging around websites to find software. I don’t even have to walk through an installer, I just search in a single program and select the checkbox, nothing could be easier (well, maybe more organized virtual packages for newbies).
Hardware is a mixed bag. I threw a (“borrowed”) copy of WinXP Pro on my computer last week because I was bored. I was frustrated at the initial lack of sound (I had to install the motherboard drivers) and my scrollwheel didn’t work (I had to install the mouse drivers — why I keep these disks around I don’t know). With Linux, these things are already built-in. However, I’ve had frustrations with things such as wireless ethernet (which I *did* get to work but it was hackish). Things would be a lot better if hardware manufacturers were open about their internals so it’s not really our fault. Still, things could be a little bit more organized and cross-distro databases of what module for what hardware would be good instead of digging through forums…
I’m really excited about some things coming up. I believe in Mono and I hope we can work together to form a more organized, object-oriented development sphere (think CPAN for .Net/Mono). Eventually X11 will have to go because it’s extremely crufty (modularization will help) and unmaintainable but that will take another 10 years probably. Configuration still requires editing text files and that’s no good (but that should always be an option). We’re better than we used to be but we still have a long ways to go.
My iBook comes next week so I’ll get to compare OS X 10.4 to Gnome 2.10. I like most of what I’ve seen about it but we’ll see what daily use leads to… lots of good ideas. I just wish it didn’t take superhero developers (someone on p.g.o referred to them last week). More people should get involved and programming should be made more accessible and organized. We need to find ways to organize ideas and implement them quickly and be more agile. Only this way can we really get the ease-of-use and eye-candy that we desire.
Well the author has to realize is that people are used to Windows and where the control panel is and so on.. Its been around for a long time. But It still doesn’t make it easier, installing stuff on windows doesn’t always just work. You must make sure that the device you buy is Microsoft certified or it ‘MIGHT” work.
Windows has also made a great environment to CHARGE, because even for windows people PAY to have their outlook configured. So Wether that user was using Evolution or Outlook they would have still had someone else configure it for them. So Windows doesn’t always just work. You still have to install drivers and sometimes it is not just click, click , click you must also get the setting correctly
but the article is a bit flamebaitish. E.g. claiming that nothing happens when you connect a CD burner. Yet, he mentions ubunto where CD buring is a easy as a menu selection in the file manager. Another example is digital cameras, that when connected through USB automagically pops up a program to download the images from the camera. Ubuntu runs the latest verson of Gnome, and by now most Linux distros have the same feature set. I connected new printer to a FC4 system and when I rebooted the next time a dialog showed up and asked me to install it, the correct printermake and driver was allready preselected.
Even so, there is a lot of truth in the article, Linux could be a lot more usable. I’m not so sure its so much worse than windows though, in fact I’m not sure it actually is worse. The difference is that there are more people who can give you tips on obscure regedit fixes, than can read a shell script. The most important factor that makes Windows more usable is that it comes preinstalled on the computer.
Most of the people that try to connect the phone cord to their keyboard to get internet access is not likely to get very far installing windows.
The best Linux alternative for this kind of users would probably be Gnome, so lets see what could be iproved.
First I would suggest hiding files that normal users shouldn’t need to see. I’m talking about /dev, /boot,
/bin, /lib, /etc, /sbin, /proc, /root, /var
Second, drag and drop needs to be fixed. When I say
drag and drop I don’t mean the transfer of information, that allready works at least it is not worse than on e.g. windows. What I’m thinking of is how focus is handled.
If you open Nautilus and drag one file from one window to the other the focus will shift to the window where you got the file. It should be possible to drag files into a folder without the focus shifting.
Other things are speed, rendering widgets must be quicker in gtk. Yet another thing is file dialogs. There are no way of knowing the capabilities a file dialog. True gnome applications use gnome-vfs and have full functionality over the network, while gtk applications havn’t. This is an area where Gnome could learn a lot from KDE where every dialog is network aware.
That article was severe flamebait if ever I saw one. Whatever happened to journalistic integrity and accuracy?
Install a new cd/dvd drive – Linux installs the necessary drivers instantly, all under the hood. Works out of the box. No extra fiddling needed.
kde and gnome provide easy to use desktop environments, no hard to use than Windows – unless you get some stubborn and stupid git who *only* wants a Linux desktop environment that exactly mimics the Windows environment because he’s too lazy to learn things. Not Linux’s problem. In fact, Linux does many things better on the desktop than Windows or MacIntosh’s.
The average Windows user gets stuck when it comes to installing new hardware, whether or not it’s guided via the add new hardware wizard. Most Windows users can’t even tell you what version of Windows they’re using, or where to find the device manager. The average computer users is just as *clueless* in Windows as they would be with Linux.
As to Andy’s comment:
” It’s just that anyone who tries to install (or God forbid) promote it as an alternative to a mainstream user OS just plain doesn’t get it”
If you too a totally new computer user, introduced Linux to them, got them used to Linux and then after a few years asked them to switch to Windows or Mac they’d get lost as well. Since Windows is dominant on the desktop, people are used to it, schools teach kids Windows from a young age today, by the time they leave school they’re highly proficient with Windows.
Then we have educational systems (Like TAFE in nsw, Australia), that supposedly teach IT, but base it *all* on Windows. Sorry, but there’s more to Windows in the wonderful world of IT. Why do they do that? Well, because it’s the dominant operating system, secondly they get *huge* discounts from Microsoft for using Windows. That’s bribery. Public educational systems should only be teaching software that is totally open, proprietary software can be left to the proprietary software tutors. I had this very argument with the head of this particular TAFE’s IT section, and she privately agreed with me. However, the board of education runs the game, and what they want, they get, and it just happens to be Microsoft. Interesting. Very.
On that note I withdrew from the course, since I had spent six or so weeks there listening to a Pro Windows IT teacher bagging linux at every turn (and which I refuted at every instance in pure defiance). He was blatantly spreading FUD. I feel sorry for those students in the class that stayed. I had to laugh when the teacher had had a previous class change a motherboard on a system that was running Windows 2000 server, and it wouldn’t boot up, but gave the bsod. The teacher had fuck all idea what he was doing. I just said “yeah, it’s the hal [hardware abstraction layer] not letting windows boot because the last known hardware list is different to what Windows currently sees”. He had no idea. I walked away and the rest of the class looked at me and then the teacher, at which he changed the subject 😉 I did complain about this teacher, and his anti Linux, pro Windows stance, but as usual nothing gets done.
Quote: “Bigfoot will fly to your house and personally deliver a $30,000 tax refund before there’s a Linux that can challenge Windows or MacOS in terms of usability.”
Andy, I have bigfoot, yeti and the loch ness sitting here next to me writing emails in kmail, but no 30k, can you send it my way please!
🙂
Dave
From reading your comment, it seems that what your saying is “Linux sucks, but WinXP sucks more”…
All joking aside, I agree with you, there’s still work to do, however that doesn’t mean that Linux isn’t usable as a desktop OS. The problem with trying to have any kind of rational debate about how to improve Linux here is that the hordes of anti-Linux posters are just waiting for a reason to jump up and say “See! I told you Linux sucked and will suck forever! Even Linux users say it!”
And then they’ll keep repeating it ad nauseam (like Mark, who basically keeps putting up the same post over and over, about how the fact that there is more than one DE and more than one toolkit means that Linux will never be successful – and then conveniently ignoring any counter-arguments presented to him…)
I think we can all agree that no OS is perfect, and that they all suck in one way or another. That said, we can all work at making them better (well, open-source ones anyway – for the others we have to rely on whoever owns them).