Home > Java > Open-Source Java Seeks Commercial Donations Open-Source Java Seeks Commercial Donations Thom Holwerda 2005-07-05 Java 33 Comments Project Harmony is seeking code donations from commercial vendors of Java Virtual Machines to kick-start the development of its new open-source Java project. About The Author Thom Holwerda Follow me on Twitter @thomholwerda 33 Comments 2005-07-05 1:25 pm > Although Sun makes its J2SE implementation available to end > users for free, it has not released the source code. …and it doesn’t allow bsd & C. to distribuite binary packages of it! So Harmony is welcomed… 2005-07-05 1:50 pm Sure Harmony is welcomed. It is their time and resources. Yet I forsee Harmony having zero impact for at least 5 years. 2005-07-05 1:51 pm “Although Sun makes its J2SE implementation available to end users for free, it has not released the source code.” sure it has!! http://www.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2se/java2/download.xml and 1.6 code is here: https://mustang.dev.java.net/ 2005-07-05 1:56 pm “Although Sun makes its J2SE implementation available to end users for free, it has not released the source code.” sure it has!! http://www.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2se/java2/download.xml and 1.6 code is here: 2005-07-05 2:22 pm DOn’t we already have this? Sun see’s GCJ getting alot more support than they expected, and they don’t want to lose their baby so they’re making their own? This is a question. 2005-07-05 2:28 pm Open-source Java would also allow developers to easily build new applications on top of the open code, and could further foster the adoption of Java in developing economies that have a propensity towards open source. So, we are to assume that as of now you can’t build applications on top of existing java implementations. And we are to further assume that developing countries will just flock to java if its under an “official” open source license. And so either this “journalist” didn’t do some fact-checking regarding Sun releasing source code, or its one of those FOSS zealot newspeak things, where the source code doesn’t really exist unless its under an “officially sanctioned” license. 2005-07-05 2:29 pm ehm..can someone give me an overview about the diffrences between those three? arent they all open java implementation? thank you 2005-07-05 2:30 pm What are you getting at? Sun is making “their own” what? – an AOT compiler like GCJ? 2005-07-05 2:32 pm DOn’t we already have this? Sun see’s GCJ getting alot more support than they expected, and they don’t want to lose their baby so they’re making their own? This is a question. Sun invented Java. Sun was the first java distributor. Sun’s java is the official reference implementation. GCJ is NOT a JRE. It is a compiler that compiles Java code into native binaries, meaning that if you compile something with gcj on linux, it won’t run on FreeBSD. If you use Harmony or Sun’s JRE, it will run on any OS that is supported by Java. 2005-07-05 2:36 pm Here’s my understaning. GCJ is a front-end, similiar to G++ that produces native binaries of java code. kaffee is an open source JVM implementation. Harmony is another somewhat all-encompassing project by the Apache group that wants to have a full JSE5 runtime and class library implementation – which will most likely use code from the GNU Classpath project, which does the libraries. Yeah, its all a mess 2005-07-05 2:38 pm Well, GCJ includes interpreter (gij) as well as ahead-of-time compiler. It can run cross-platform *.class files just fine, and can take advantage of precompiled *.so files in addition. 2005-07-05 2:45 pm I would like them to use JikesRVM as a base for their harmony project. It would be great to extend it to support every posible platform. A java based JVM would have the possibility of getting many java programmers to help coding it. And how would be in a better intention to help program a good JVM than java programmers themselves? We already have our java ides written in java, why not complete the cicle having the vm written in java as well? 2005-07-05 3:48 pm “Ummmm, duh. I think what he was referring to was under an open source license. He probably shouldn’t have assumed people would be intelligent enough to realize this however, as obviously some people aren’t.” Right, so now we have to assume stuff when reading an article – ofcourse… makes perfect sense. Never read what is actually written, guess what the journalist thinks. Right got that – will remember that…. 2005-07-05 4:20 pm Since Sun is rapidly going the way of SCO, the only way we’re going to get clearly free Java is either that the Harmony project eventually forces Sun to OSS Java, or Harmony will OSS it whether Sun likes it or not. As for the other OSS Java VM implementations, they should get on the bandwagon and contribute their code to Harmony, as Harmony is intended to be a complete Java implementation and thus supercedes the other projects. It may well take five years, but remember – the reference implementation is already done by Sun. All Harmony has to do is code to the spec – they don’t have to design anything. And even if it takes five years, so what? Five is better than ten, and ten is better than never which is what Sun is apparently intending. 2005-07-05 4:37 pm > DOn’t we already have this? Yes. My best guess is that the Apache folks don’t like the GPL. Perhaps they think that it scares off commercial interests, and they prefer a more BSD-like license, possibly in hopes that more companies will adopt it as their own (or a base for their own) Java implementations. I think that’s the only reason they want their own non-GNU Java implementation. As an aside, I don’t know why there’s both kaffe *and* gij. I believe they both do the same thing. I also think they both use GNU Classpath. 2005-07-05 4:48 pm Classpath is already better than LGPL, GPL+exceptions license but the Apache group is right not to trust GNU control over the libraries so we’ll probably see a dual-license Classpath eventually since the Apache license isn’t compatible with GPL 2005-07-05 5:29 pm Classpath is already great and is used by vairous VMs, i dont think harmony will have a big future. 2005-07-05 5:34 pm > Since Sun is rapidly going the way of SCO Explain. And didn’t IBM just renew their Java license for ELEVEN YEARS?! > It may well take five years, but remember – the reference implementation is already done by Sun. HEH! Five years to get a working J2SE5 implementation done? Are you stoned? Java 8 or 9 will be out in five years and there will probably be implementations done by IBM, Oracle, Sun, etc. Why on earth would you wait that long for an obsolute spec? 2005-07-05 5:43 pm Sun has invested billions of dollars, and hundreds of thousands of hours of programming work into Java. And we’ve reaped the benefits. By what right do we, the open source community, have to steal their product? 2005-07-05 6:22 pm I’m in love with Java 2005-07-05 6:35 pm By what right do we, the open source community, have to steal their product? Obviously this is just a troll, but I can’t resist: the Java spec has been modified over the past couple of years (through the JCP, controlled almost entirely by Sun) so that open source implementations are specifically allowed. Sun has also relaxed their certification rules (with “scholarships”) so that such implementations can even be certified as genuine Java. There is no “stealing” going on by any stretch of the imagination, as you well know. 2005-07-05 6:40 pm I think that’s the only reason they want their own non-GNU Java implementation. Another reason is that GCJ is not a JRE, so this project fills a niche that nothing else out there – realistically – hopes to provide, under any open source license. Not everything is a license debate (although there are geniune license questions involved here, such as how far Classpath will have to bend to be acceptable to Apache). 2005-07-05 6:42 pm Classpath is already great and is used by vairous VMs, i dont think harmony will have a big future. The intention is for Harmony to use Classpath. So whether Harmony has a big future or not will be decided by other factors. 2005-07-05 6:52 pm Kaffe: VM with interpreter and jitter, very portable, oldest free VM around, alive and kicking, uses GNU Classpath now for the largest part, but had its own class library back in the early days. Fun. gcj: GNU Compiler for programs written in the Java programming language, part of gcc, nicely portable, compiles Java code to bytecode or native, and bytecode to native. Used to have its own class library, but now mostly uses GNU Classpath. Rocks. gij: quick interpreter, part of gcj’s toolsuite, allows execution of arbitrary byte code using gcj’s class library. Neat. Apache Harmony: ASF’s runtime project in incubation phase, targeting a certified, modular, portable J2SE 5 runtime. Collaborative effort spanning over different free runtimes within GNU Classpath, as well as seeking collaboration with non-free runtime vendors. Promising. cheers, dalibor topic 2005-07-05 8:40 pm From the article: “Project Harmony is seeking code donations from commercial vendors of Java Virtual Machines to kick-start the development of its new open-source Java project.” Compare and contrast this thread to the discussion raging around the OSNews-linked article, “An Open Letter To The Open Source Community”: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=11082 When corporate IT* makes requests of free software, the amount of shouting is immense. Now we have free software making requests of commercial JVM vendors for free code. Where’s the counter-fuss? Why is no-one complaining about companies being asked to give up code they invested time and money in and quite probably use to generate their income? As only an occasional Java programmer, I’m largely uninterested in Harmony. If they want to ask for code donations, or someone wants to give one, good luck to all concerned. But I found the contrast in attitudes with the other thread simply incredible. (I realise the fuss isn’t actually Apache’s doing.) I was also amused by this snippet from the Harmony FAQ: “10) Do you have any code to start? No, we don’t. We didn’t want to “bless” any given implementation that might be donated (if such a thing could happen) but would rather let the community decide how it will create and develop the platform.” Did the community decide on this request for donations then? I trust now they will be blessing some of the implementations that might be donated in response to their request? * Though I persist in saying it was just a view point used to express the ideas in the article. 2005-07-05 9:30 pm I agree with you!! I think the common user does not care about the license as long as they can use it cheaply and is well supported/compatible. 2005-07-05 9:45 pm If they want to ask for code donations, or someone wants to give one, good luck to all concerned. But I found the contrast in attitudes with the other thread simply incredible. (I realise the fuss isn’t actually Apache’s doing.) OSNews comments are filled with trolls – and the earlier story you point to is no exception. Why should anyone have to defend a “contrast in attitudes” propigated by trolls? How many of those trolls do you think have anything to do with Apache? How many do you think even know how to code? (My guess is less than 5%.) Your mistake was ever believing that the “attitude” shown in OSNews comments have anything to do with the actual attitudes of those in this community. 2005-07-05 11:05 pm There was another implementation in pure Java called joeq (joeq.sourceforge.net). For an open-source project, the license might be a bit more appealing than IBM’s, although I have not looked what license jikes is actually released with. 2005-07-06 1:07 am Whilst Jikes RVM is a great project, not even they recommend that it be used as the basis for a JVM… that’s why they call themselves an RVM and not a JVM! I wouldn’t want to trust production apps to Jikes RVM. However, if the Harmony developers can reconcile themselves with the Jikes RVM licence (from memory, it’s GPL) then they are free to take as much Jikes RVM code as they like, and there’s a lot of good stuff there. 2005-07-06 1:13 am Ahh, the Jikes RVM licence is the IBM CPL, which the FSF considers a free software licence that’s incompatible with the GPL. 2005-07-06 3:33 am 1) SUN’s JDK does NOT run on alternative OSes such as free BSDs. 2) I’ve imagine that integrating JVM into OS kernel may happen one day. (part of the JVM functionality just like a scheduler and VM manager for java program, tie it to the OS may improve preformance, good to have one instead of running one on top of the other). SUN’s license model won’t work. 2005-07-06 7:44 am yes, that’s why there is JamVM, Kaffe, SableVM and all the other dozen of jvm implementations. What harmony is adding is the “apache” branding. Did someone else noticed that the apache group is losing focus? 2005-07-06 1:40 pm Since Sun is rapidly going the way of SCO, the only way we’re going to get clearly free Java is either that the Harmony project eventually forces Sun to OSS Java, or Harmony will OSS it whether Sun likes it or not. I can’t believe that people like you actually exist. Do you have any idea about the Java “scene” and it’s relationship to the Apache project ? Any “real world” (read not open-source kiddie) Java developer knows that the Apache project is nothing but a bunch of clueless crybabies that take great pride in dumping their poo (read 99% of the Jakarta output) on the world. Of course, they are getting blasted left and right by the Java community the only ppl actually thinking that their products are worth a shit being cs undergrads-open-source zealots. Harmony project won’t force Sun to do anything. The Apache group has proved again again that it does not possess the skills needed for such a big project. They’re doing what i predicted they would, begging for code from companies. So, please wake up and smell the carcass. In the real world every Java developer is laughing at these idiots. It may well take five years, but remember – the reference implementation is already done by Sun. All Harmony has to do is code to the spec – they don’t have to design anything. And even if it takes five years, so what? Five is better than ten, and ten is better than never which is what Sun is apparently intending. If we check the Apache group’s past output, Harmony will take more than 5 years assuming some company drops some code their way. Even then it will be nothing but a bunch of shit molded together and offered to the OSS kiddies for consumption. In the meantime, the Java spec will evolve beyond recongition and noone in their right mind would use a 6-year old obsolete codebase when the “real” (read Sun Java) thing is there and it works, is well documented and supported. I guess these things don’t mean much to the OSS inbreds, after all they’re used to picking up shit and using it, often with a smile.