Home > Novell and Ximian > Novell: Vista Will Drive Users to Linux Novell: Vista Will Drive Users to Linux Thom Holwerda 2005-09-12 Novell and Ximian 136 Comments The high costs of migrating from Windows XP to Windows Vista will be the catalyst that encourages more companies to seriously consider moving to desktop Linux, according to open source and networking company Novell on Monday. About The Author Thom Holwerda Follow me on Mastodon @[email protected] 136 Comments 2005-09-12 2:16 pm Anonymous >Vista Will Drive Users to Linux Yes. The same way the costs of migrating from Win98 to WinXP did it in the past. Oh, wait, it didn’t. Windows is free for most users. 2005-09-12 2:23 pm Jamie Windows is free for most users. Are you referring to pirates? Windows still costs a tidy sum if you get it preinstalled on a new machine. If you go to a supplier who is not part of the Microsoft racket then you can get cheaper computer hardware without paying the MS Tax (check out Walmarts prices with Linspire preinstalled). 2005-09-12 5:25 pm japail Commercial Linux distributions have nonzero cost as well. Then the question for the user is whether the cost difference between the OEM Windows fee and the competition’s fee is made up in the value from having compatability with software that they are currently capable of using. When many computer users are not even remotely confident with their ability to use their computers, how many of them do you really expect to rock the boat over a few tens of dollars? Which when compared to the cost of the computer is what we’re talking about with an OEM copy of Windows. Unless there are identical systems before them with the only difference being this fee, they won’t even have a firm grasp for what the cost actually is, but I assume for most people whatever it is won’t be worth the emotional distress of transition. Then of course one needs to consider how many people, comparatively purchase computers from places where this option is even made plainly available to them, rather than just acquiring a Dell from Rent-to-Own R Us or directly. If the typical view to the consumer is a Windows world, then the cost of Windows is completely transparent to them. It is “free” in the same way that the mouse that comes with the computer is “free.” It has a cost, but to them that entire box filled with “things” is their “computer” and costs $x. 2005-09-12 2:44 pm Anonymous You did see that the summary said “companies”, not “users”, right? Companies have a lot more say in what comes installed on new hardware. Companies also often have IT people who are well aware that Windows is neither free, nor required to use the computer. 2005-09-12 3:14 pm jessta Windows is free for most users. Almost free as in beer, yes. Free as in the freedom to change the software to actually make it do what you wish, no. I got sick of windows for the reason that: “Windows makes simple things easy and complex things impossible” whereas “Gentoo makes simple things difficult and complex things easy” I much prefer the latter. – Jesse McNelis 2005-09-12 4:04 pm unoengborg Even if a licence upgrade costs zero, the cost of the upgrade in it self will cost huge amounts of money in an organization. For one thing you need to keep track of what machines is running what software. You will have to verify that the new version is compatible with existing IT-infrastructure, and in many cases you will find glitches that needs to be fixed. Such glitches could be upgrades of external softwar, upgrades of software written in house, or hardware upgrades. You will have to train your staff or/and suffer production losses while the staff train themselves. Finally you will have to pay sombody to actuall make sure that the new software ends up on your harddrives. All in all switching even to a free system can be very expensive. This is why Linux have so much problems gaining marketshare and I think that Novell are devoted themself to wishful thinking when they say that Vista will have much impact on Linux. Most users will just stay with what they allready got. New organizations may of corse benefit from going the Linux road. 2005-09-12 11:53 pm ma_d “This is why Linux have so much problems gaining marketshare and I think that Novell are devoted themself to wishful thinking when they say that Vista will have much impact on Linux.” Now that’s not entirely fair. You know as well as I do that every major release of Windows, except possibly XP, has brought with it major changes. Even XP SP2 brought in major changes; and that was just a (serious of) fix(es). Vista is, for one, bringing in more enforcement of user accounts. Now, for MegaCorp, with their 16,384 user domain, that’s no big deal! But for TinyCorp, with their 32 users who share one server and each have their own totally seperate desktop; and one IT “dude”, that’s a big deal. Because now they have 32 people who are suddenly asking “but I used to be able to do this on that there XP?” Now, Novell, ironically, is more concerned with MegaCorp (I think). But for every MegaCorp, there’s 1024 TinyCorps… And for every TinyCorp, there’s 128 homes. Ok, I made those numbers up, but I think they sort of represent how small businesses can be a money maker as well; even though it involves a completely different marketing strategy. I’m sure Microsoft will do all they can to make the Vista move easy for people (actually that’s a lie because I think the backwards compatibility camp has lost power in Redmond). But even with the best people designing it, it’s still going to involve pains and tons of hidden costs. Remember how much junk SP2 broke? Should it have broke most of it? Hell yes! Did that cost money to fix things that should have been fixed before? Hell yes. Now I forgot where I was taking this. 2005-09-12 6:04 pm Finalzone No. As user, you will need to pay to upgrade from Win98 to WinXP for about USD 200 unless you got a pirated copy. Plus, if you don’t have WinXP, you won’t get Service Pack 2. 2005-09-12 6:27 pm Anonymous Oh come on, you’re joking ;P or are you really that naive… users are still paying for their copy of windows, only, most dumb suckers simply don’t realize it 2005-09-13 1:01 pm Anonymous >>Vista Will Drive Users to Linux >Yes. The same way the costs of migrating from Win98 to >WinXP did it in the past. Oh, wait, it didn’t. Windows >is free for most users. My father worked in Boca Raton and bought Bill lunch one day because Bill didn’t have any money. I have used DOS, Win31, OS/2, Win95, NT 4.0, Win98, Win98SE, WinME, Win2k, WinXP home and WinXP Pro. All at home. Will I switch when Vista comes out? yes, I will. And it has nothing to do with price. 2005-09-12 2:18 pm Anonymous …will keep people on XP. 2005-09-12 6:26 pm ma_d Until around 2010 or so… Maybe even earlier, depending on how much software developers prefer the new tools in vista. Although, as long as Microsoft keeps .net properly back ported that shouldn’t be too much of a problem. Also, I think many large companies are on some sort of time license with Microsoft aren’t they? 2005-09-12 9:29 pm Anonymous …Will keep people on Windows 2000 2005-09-12 9:36 pm Anonymous you mean in virus heaven? i doubt it. anyone in his right mind is going Linux. especially larger companies who cannot afford taking risks. 2005-09-12 2:21 pm Anonymous But were is the rational for this? 2005-09-12 2:22 pm Anonymous Sorry, Linux fans: Vista will drive away only a few people, and the likelihood that they’ll go for Linux is small. I hear there’s this company called Apple that’s doing some really great things with their OS, and they also happen to have the recognition that Linux distributors can only dream of. Windows migrants will head for the aqua shores of Apple. 2005-09-12 2:34 pm Jamie Thats not how the market works! To be sure of success in any market, you either have to be the cheapest (mass market/low margins) or the best (small market/high margins). Now MS has always succeeded in the past by being the cheapest (with the help of a few monopolistic tricks too) but.. oh wait Linux is cheaper! And OS/X is the best of the three! That kinda leaves MS caught between a rock and a hard place. In marketing terms, MS is up s**t’s creek without a paddle and nothing Vista will offer will save them from one mighty fall. 2005-09-12 5:26 pm seguso To be sure of success in any market, you either have to be the cheapest (mass market/low margins) or the best. Or come preinstalled. 2005-09-12 6:43 pm Jamie Sure as will Linux and OS/X in time. My point is that MS will find itself squeezed in the middle because rich companies will choose OS/X and cheaper ones Linux. So yeah OS/X is much much more of a threat to MS than it is to Linux (especially if OS/X is a lot more expensive than windows). 2005-09-12 5:33 pm japail > Thats not how the market works! Haha. Another solved problem in economics! 2005-09-12 2:40 pm doug “Windows migrants will head for the aqua shores of Apple.” That beach dried up a long time ago. But I’m sure they’ll keep doing well selling $400 mp3 players. 2005-09-12 3:27 pm jessta oh, ofcourse. Apple is dead. BSD is dead. Windows 95 is dead. OS/2 is dead. HURD is dead. There are 6 billion people on this planet, As long as people still use something then it isn’t dead. I know people who still use windows 95. I use BSD. Kerneltrap says there is lots of stuff coming out of HURD. IBM will soon be stopping support for OS/2, but what’s the bet that they open source it and some OS/2 lovers continue development of it. Saying apple is dead, just makes you sound like an idiot. – Jesse McNelis 2005-09-12 5:40 pm japail I think the source of the ‘idiocy’ here is miscommunication. When someone refers to something as ‘dead’ they typically mean ‘something much more active than HURD.’ Secondly, there are more than six billion humans and most of them don’t own personal computers. If you want to introduce the number of computer users into a discussion (not that it’s obvious to me why that matters in this case) it would be better to use that figure; I could as uselessly estimate some absurdly large number of organisms living on Earth, but that means little as far as computer usage is concerned). I think most of the ‘idiocy’ in this discussion is that this petty, flamebait bickering is being moderated up. Not you specifically, but rather the many such discussions. 2005-09-12 5:30 pm japail More likely than driving them away, it will simply leave people using Windows XP for a number of years before they give in and buy or acquire via illicit means a copy of Vista. Not unlike the transition to XP from NT4, NT5, and ‘9x. Not all businesses sit around eagerly anticipating spending money on new computers or computer software when what they have meets their needs already. 2005-09-12 5:38 pm Anonymous Staying with Windows XP for another year or two is not an option anymore. Expert estimate that XP still has hundreds of undiscovered security holes and new viruses are appearing almost on a daily basis now. A large company cannot take the risk of hackers targeting their servers or a virus infestation that wipes our their data. It really boils down to migrating to a platform that is more secure, stable, and ideally low-cost and this happens to be Linux. 2005-09-12 5:47 pm japail Haha. Where’s archiesteel to call you an astroturfer? 2005-09-12 5:48 pm japail Haha. Where’s archiesteel to call you an astroturfer? 2005-09-12 5:53 pm japail -5 that; forum meltdown 2005-09-12 5:36 pm unoengborg An increased Apple market share would most likely be beneficial to Linux. Today, if you go into a store to buy a new PC the salesperson will ask you how much disk and how fast processor and graphics card you need. If Apple had higher market share he would probably also ask what OS you wanted. This will highligt the fact that the OS is something separate from the PC, and that some of the OSes actually costs money. When aware of that, some people will go for the low cost but highly capable Linux. As we are speaking of what will happen over a year from now we can expect that the Linux user experience will be much better than that of today. E.g. there will be two more Gnome releases and at least one KDE release that will pollish the GUI event further. Today usability is cool and Linux improves very rapidly in that area. Perhaps more rapidly than any other OS including MacOS-X. Another factor is that most people will probably not consider upgrading to Vista or something else until windows XP is end of lifed. That would give even more time for Microsofts competiors to present viable substitutes. A higher Apple market share will also make it harder for Microsoft to apply lock in tactics on protocolls file formats and such. It will also raise the awarness of unixlike OSes among developers, sysadmins and users. 2005-09-12 2:22 pm Anonymous Anonymous wrote: “Yes. The same way the costs of migrating from Win98 to WinXP did it in the past. Oh, wait, it didn’t. Windows is free for most users.” Windows is free? It may come pre-installed, but it’s most assuredly NOT free. 2005-09-12 2:41 pm Anonymous The cost of windows factored in to the price of computers by manufacturers is of little consequence to most users. They just won’t notice. After all, to most people, computers are cheaper these days than ever before anyway. 2005-09-13 12:11 pm cprpop Windows is free? It may come pre-installed, but it’s most assuredly NOT free. Statistics say otherwise. Consider the added crowds pirating Windows in Asia, Eastern Europe, Southern America and even in the first world. I don’t have hard figures but I’m pretty sure the amount of people using Windows for free is quite higher than the ones that pay for it. Microsoft themselves prove this theory every time they offer to sell Windows for peanuts to cities or countries that threaten to move away from Microsoft products. Piracy is Microsoft’s all time greatest marketing aid, I’m afraid. 2005-09-13 1:25 pm junyoung Consider the added crowds pirating Windows in Asia, Eastern Europe, Southern America and even in the first world. I don’t have hard figures but I’m pretty sure the amount of people using Windows for free is quite higher than the ones that pay for it. At least not true in Korea any more. More than 70~80% of computers sold in Korea are shipped with preinstalled Windows (genuine, of course). So piracy rate is much lower than what you guess. 😛 2005-09-12 2:25 pm Anonymous Oh wait, they own SUSE Linux http://www.novell.com/linux/suse/ 2005-09-12 2:30 pm doug I agree that Vista will drive more people to Linux, including schools and governments too. But two questions I have are: are dell/emachines/etc. going to start offering a choice? Or at least offer rock bottom linux machines. And will Linux make significant improvements in the next year in usability and hardware compatibility? Most Linux distros won’t even install on recent machines There are stil problems with SATA, NTFS, sound cards, etc. Hence a deal between Dell and Suse for example or something like that would help a great deal to ensure hardware compatibility. 2005-09-12 3:27 pm voidlogic “Most Linux distros won’t even install on recent machines There are stil problems with SATA, NTFS, sound cards, etc” Ubuntu Linux (#1 at distrowatch) handles my Athlon 3500+ with Sata and PCI-E, dual NICs, with ease, no sound issues (I use 5.10b) I have used the live CD to recover information from from both NTFS (windows) and HFS+ (mac). Perhaps you are a little out of touch with the current state of Linux. I help people migrate to Linux, out of my 50 or so installs, I have only had one show stoper ever. 2005-09-13 4:54 am doug “Ubuntu Linux (#1 at distrowatch) handles my Athlon 3500+ with Sata and PCI-E, dual NICs, with ease, no sound issues (I use 5.10b) I have used the live CD to recover information from from both NTFS (windows) and HFS+ (mac). Perhaps you are a little out of touch with the current state of Linux. ” Linux works great on custom made PCs. I’m talking about mainstream pre-built computers. Ubuntu has issues installing or running on Dells and eMachines at least. So does Gentoo and even Knoppix. 2005-09-13 5:04 am voidlogic I just installed Ubntu 5.10 beta with no problems on a eMachines laptop, a IBM thinikpad, and a two Dell Percison workstations, a newer 3.0 GHz, and a couple year old 2.4 Ghz.If you were haveing issues with 4.10 (some-what common), or 5.04 (i have never had any) you should try 5.10. It seems to be working very well for my clients. It also loaded it on a brand new powerbook, no issues. I provide Ubuntu support to many people as a consultant (it is the only distro of linux we support) and have seen no evidence of problems on “mainstream pre-built computers” 2005-09-13 3:54 pm doug If you don’t believe me, go to the Ubuntu wiki. Look at the laptop reports and what few deskop reports are there. About 50% you see some problem with hardware compatibility, like no sound, can’t install, etc. Look up SATA on the bugzillas for ubuntu and gentoo. My only point was that we need to get in gear and improve hardware compatibility, go that last extra mile. If Linux devs can’t keep up with all the new hardware constantly coming out, then another thing that can help is for hardware vendors and linux distributors to collaborate more to ensure compatibility. 2005-09-13 6:37 pm voidlogic I agree that hardware support needs improvment. I guess my personal experence is not having any problems with Ubuntu 5.04 and 5.10 that I could not fix easily. I think the Linux needs to be more open to closed source drivers. I totally understand why the nVidia Driver is closed source, it makes since. If it was not ATI would benifit. Think they should simply ensure there is a good infrastructure for those drivers to hook into. Distros need to ship these drivers as well. I’m all for opensource all software but drivers. Closed source drivers make sense. 2005-09-13 11:21 am abraxas Linux works great on custom made PCs. I’m talking about mainstream pre-built computers. Ubuntu has issues installing or running on Dells and eMachines at least. So does Gentoo and even Knoppix. Where did you hear that from? I’ve installed Gentoo on a few different Dells without a problem. In fact Dells are made to work with Linux. What Dells have you had a problem with? 2005-09-12 4:12 pm Dark_Knight Re: Turnkey systems Companies such as Dell and HP already offer workstations and servers with Linux as an optional installation instead of installing Windows. 2005-09-13 12:02 pm Musashi NTFS is supported on read on linux. But Reiser or other LinuxFS is supported on win? You need to test more distros. 2005-09-12 2:30 pm Anonymous as it may be, most heads of it staff hav so much OSS FUD in there heads that they are looking forward to vista as their savior. even though the likely hood of vista running AT ALL on more then half of the computers here is slim to none. 2005-09-12 2:32 pm Eraser I have always wondered why isn’t Linux more widely adopted in the workplace for workstations. The greatly reduced threat of virii and spyware should make this a no brainer, especially for IT workers. I wrote an article a while back on the topic, it can be found at: http://ensode.net/linux_workplaces.html 2005-09-12 2:44 pm Anonymous Its because the managers/bosses in a company are jsut more cumfortable and with and use to windows. Its sad but true. 2005-09-12 2:36 pm Anonymous most linux distros wont install on recent machines? thats funny. sata works fine out of the box on debian and mandrake. soundblaster stuff works BETTER under linux for me. if you want to keep NTFS around then keep windows. (y you want iether is the real question) 2005-09-12 2:37 pm Anonymous Novell has made hundreds of statements over the years of which 99% eventually proved to be utter nonsense. Whenever Novell makes claims about the failure of Microsoft, I buy more Microsoft stock. According to them Windows was going to be a “passing thing”, yadda, yadda, yadda. No end the bullshit they have convinced themselves of over the past 15 years. Wake up Novell….. Your own stockholders are getting really worried about WHY you spent all that money on yet another piss poor attempt to get back into network computing. Stop worrying about what Microsoft is doing. Worry like hell about how you are going to climb out of the hole you are in the bottom of. 2005-09-12 2:37 pm Anonymous Linux? Or more probably cough os tiger cough 2005-09-12 2:40 pm Anonymous It’s in decline. If Novell had any talent at predicting the future, they wouldn’t have let their flagship product die a slow, painful death. I think this brave Novell predictions going to go the same way as the one about Active Directory not hurting them because they said it was technically inferior. 2005-09-12 2:50 pm Anonymous “I think this brave Novell predictions going to go the same way as the one about Active Directory not hurting them because they said it was technically inferior.” If Active Directory continues to evolve as it appears to be; There will be little room for anyone else in network computing. Once you lock into Active Directory you are not going to be migrating to Linux, Unix, or anything else. Say what you want about Windows servers, but AD is damn powerful stuff. 2005-09-12 3:21 pm Anonymous Oh you mean that NDS rip-off? The one that doesnt scale to half what NDS (eDirectory) does. Its LDAP.. You can move more easily from AD than you could from the old NT Domains. 2005-09-12 3:49 pm Anonymous “Oh you mean that NDS rip-off? The one that doesnt scale to half what NDS (eDirectory) does. Its LDAP.. You can move more easily from AD than you could from the old NT Domains.” Yup. I do mean that NDS rip-off. Doesn’t matter an iota if it’s DAP or LDAP in 95% of the places it’s installed. Many places who were once running NDS are running AD now. I’ve never had a issue with AD scale which couldn’t be resolved. Seldom do I ever hear anyone wanting NDS back after being rid of it. Crusty old CNE’s from the dark ages being the only real whiners. They hate change no matter what. 2005-09-12 2:44 pm Anonymous …requirements are the indications, then Novell’s prediction may have merrit. Remember, Novell was talking about business users, not the typical computer-illiterate, mouse-clicking, plug-n-play home users. If and when companies consider migrating to Vista, they have to look at BOTH the cost of hardware AND the cost of software licensing. It can still be a very hefty sum, given the competitions Vista will face by the time it is released. 2005-09-12 2:56 pm Anonymous I could move to OSX but not Linux. People will pay a premium for functionality and some good drivers and apps. Linux just can’t compete with that. 2005-09-12 4:32 pm Anonymous “I could move to OSX but not Linux. People will pay a premium for functionality and some good drivers and apps. Linux just can’t compete with that.” Oh really?, some of the best programers in the world do OSS, and you should see the drivers that comes from some companies tring to make it into the kernel. They are truly aweful, so Just because they make there own drives dont mean they are quality, see CreativeLabs/ATI. 2005-09-12 5:01 pm Anonymous If you hadn’t noticed, most of the underlying tools within OS X comes from…. you guessed it, the open source community. For example, it uses Cups and Samba. The more I learn of OS X, the more I realize that it doesn’t have anything over Gnome/KDE except for eye candy and more proprietary apps. 2005-09-13 12:21 pm cprpop The more I learn of OS X, the more I realize that it doesn’t have anything over Gnome/KDE except for eye candy and more proprietary apps. In all fairness, there’s more. They are implementing very inovative concepts, which although are no secret, for some reason are not adopted by other projects. Example 1: the desktop. I won’t go into the many things that you’ll take for granted under OS X and won’t find on Gnome/KDE, or have to add by hand and still won’t be the same. Example 2: application management. Linux also has projects like http://0install.net/ , and who uses it? RoX, which is hardly one of the biggest players on the Linux desktop. Example 3: the filesystem. Apple took a BSD and reorganized it so now the underlying filesystem on OS X shed the legacy of decades-old-FHS and actually makes sense to all kinds of computer users. The closest thing I’ve seen on Linux is GoboLinux, which is a hobbyist project that caters to a handful of enthusiasts. Actually, I could well take a guess to what the reasons preventing adoption of these cool things are. Legacy is a very hard habit to break. 2005-09-13 2:25 pm unoengborg “Actually, I could well take a guess to what the reasons preventing adoption of these cool things are. Legacy is a very hard habit to break.” Yes, this is a real problem. In fact many things in Gnome allready works like on MacOS-X, the problem is that it is not configured that way by default. E.g. it is possible to hide folders that users/etc, /proc, /boot, /sys, /usr, /bin, /sbin, /lib,… by adding the names of them to a .hidden file in the root directoy.. It would also be possible to give internationalized and more human readable names to some folders by using .desktop files. Whats needed is much less UNIX-think, and a stronger focus on the users every day life situation. The user is not likely to conceptualize his environment in terms of UNIX directory structures. He will think in terms like fellow co-workers known by their real name, and not their login (KDE will be doing that in their next version). He will think of his desktop, his trash can, and his file cabinets as separate entities not something that is part of a larger directory tree, the same goes for periphals like USB memory sticks, inserted CD/DVD roms, digital cameras, etc. I don’t know how many times I have tried to introduce such ideas to Gnome and KDE mailinglists, unfortunately for the future of Linux such ideas are rejected as not being true to UNIX. I suppose there are two resons for this, 1) As developer you think in terms of UNIX, 2) by developing systems that requires the user to think in terms of UNIX, they keep their guruhood intact with respect to ordinary users. It is really sad that developers of Gmome, KDE,.. tries to make a good userinterface to UNIX, and not a good interface to get work done when the development effort to accomplish this is so small. 2005-09-12 2:57 pm Yogurth Comfort for buesiness means nothing if the price difference between getting Vista and SUSE for example will be ~200-300 Euros depending on which Vista version the company snips. Add into that new hardware (i guess You all know by now what will Vista need…btw XP betas run on older hardware just fine, while Vista beta swaps soo badly without Aero or WinFS), then add new Office. Price can be up to 1000 Euros per machine more than moving to Linux. If Buesiness has let’s say 50 computers You do the math. 2005-09-12 2:57 pm Lakedaemon Vista will make windows people stick to windows xp…at least for the first years. They will migrate neiher to OS X nor to Linux : Games, userfriendliness/long habits die hard/windows only critical app/easier to stick to win xp… Eventually, they will migrate to a new flavour of windows xp when 1) Companies stops coding XP-drivers for new devices. 2)A new flavour of windows offers some very big enhancments on win xp (for games/media). 3) Microsoft stops updating/patching/supporting Win XP 4) they buy brand new pcs/pcs with vista pre-installed. 5) Win XP gets too bloated (in my opinion, it already is…as you have to spend hours patching it after a brand new install). My 2 cents. Lakedaemon 2005-09-12 5:05 pm Anonymous The only reason anyone ever migrates from one OS to another is if they either buy a new computer, or that OS has functionality that they absolutely have to have. Vista will only become standard once everyone starts buying new PCs. A lot of people still run Windows 95! 2005-09-12 2:58 pm Anonymous bad product, forces people to start looking at the good product. 2005-09-12 2:59 pm Anonymous The higher cost of a new double cheese Whopper will have people come running for our BigMacs, according to McDonalds. 2005-09-12 3:07 pm ronaldst wakes up from daydreaming and returns to the reality that Vista will make the Linux market shrink big time. 2005-09-12 3:14 pm Anonymous Novell doesn’t created anything of important for the linux desktop i really don’t understand those press release. ant btw it’s not a matter of price Windows Vista will have a tons of features that GNOME will take years (IF EVER) to reach the same quality. 2005-09-12 3:16 pm Anonymous Novell own Evolution now, do they not? 2005-09-12 3:38 pm Anonymous To Anonymous (IP: 82.57.16.—) Vista is not going to have a lot of features Gnome won’t have for years. It’s Gnome that has features which Vista won’t have. MS is frantically trying to stay at level with competition, but it’s lack of innovation means MS is forced to copy whatever it’s competitors are doing. XP is a proof of that. Only MS innovation is in the area of lock in and reducing usability (read: activating requiring a phone call.. DUH!) dylansmrjones kristian AT herkild DOT 2005-09-12 4:09 pm Anonymous No Novell doesn’t create anything importance for the Linux Desktop … only – one of the best and user friendly and best integrated KDE Desktops around (Suse) – a very good (even politically hotly debated) developer platform, mono – a very nice groupware server, the Hula project – various applications either contributing towards or spearheading development, including openoffice, Beagle, iFolder, F-spot, Sonance, evolution, the Gnome Desktop to name but a few. But hey Novell doesn’t contribute anything … on which planet have you been living the last 2 years ??? 2005-09-12 4:42 pm Anonymous “No Novell doesn’t create anything importance for the Linux Desktop … only” Novell might well have cut their own throat by getting involved in Linux. While they are creating some interesting things for the community, thats NOT what they are in business to do. The entire corporate future of Novell, is now riding on their success with Linux. It’s either going to make them into something, or screw them permanently. They better get the dollars rolling in the door as they promised their stockholders when they bought Suse. The stockholders are now waiting for honest to God monetary results, and could less give a damn about what they are returning to open source. This is the “acid test” for open source and Linux in many ways. If Novell dicks this up, corporations are going to rethink future involvement and the risks involved in open source. Bottom Line: If corporations like Novell can’t make money with open source. The picnic is over. 2005-09-12 11:45 pm ma_d So, you think Netware was a better future for them then? Novell saw that Microsoft was “serious about security” and so they realized that their lifespan as a company which secures Windows networks was ending. What else did they do? I honestly don’t know much about Novell other than the older netware stuff… 2005-09-13 11:16 am abraxas This is the “acid test” for open source and Linux in many ways. If Novell dicks this up, corporations are going to rethink future involvement and the risks involved in open source. Bottom Line: If corporations like Novell can’t make money with open source. The picnic is over. You’re being a bit overdramatic. It’s not like there hasn’t already been a ton of companies that make money off open source and have been for years. What happens to Novell has no bearing on anything or anyone other than Novell itself. 2005-09-12 3:15 pm Anonymous For sure , within 6 months , I will buy a new computer with XP. I do not want to buy an expensive useless PC with an so heavy OS like VISTA 2005-09-12 3:17 pm Anonymous Who cares about what some (usually partial) company says about their competitors products? It’s always these headlines: “Windows the most secure operating system, Microsoft claims”, “iTunes will have 100% marketshare in two months, according to Apple”, “Linus Torvalds is Superman, says 14 year old Gentoo user”. They can usually at best be considered personal opinion at best, and flamebaits at worst. And no, I’m not against OpenSource, in fact Im totally for it (typing this in Firefox on Ubuntu) but Novell saying something doesn’t mean crap to me. I didn’t ditch Windows just do be a sheep in a new flock; I did it because I did not like MS’ business strategies, nor the limitations they put onto me as a user. Regarding Linux use in the enterprise: why not? Most people don’t use all those super-advanced extra features in Office that I keep hearing about, so OpenOffice would probably be just fine. The two points where Linux isn’t on par with Windows is IMO hardware support and commercial software. The hardware would be chosen and configured by the IT-department, and regarding commercial software: Well, there’s always Crossover Office (even Disney uses that) or the possibillity to let some computers remain Windows. 2005-09-12 3:37 pm Smartpatrol Keep dreaming Novell! You think companies are going to replace a working infrastructure and retrain their entire staff just to run linux your dead wrong. 2005-09-12 4:05 pm Anonymous “Keep dreaming Novell! You think companies are going to replace a working infrastructure and retrain their entire staff just to run linux your dead wrong.” Couldn’t agree with you more…. You left out the part of scrapping all those expensive existing applications, parking all those existing OS licenses, changing their entire way of doing business, and risking business failure during the process. Many older companies had such an ugly experience with Novell years ago, wild horses couldn’t drag them back at this point. 2005-09-12 3:47 pm Joe User Gimme a break… The only problem about Linux is that people will have to use:…LINUX! Yes, I think if Vista is too expensive in terms of hardware req. people are just gonna stick with XP, at least they have something that just works. Same story as Win98 > WinXP. Linux didn’t get its market share during the shift. 2005-09-12 6:14 pm Finalzone When you talk about Linux, please mention the distro you used. Be awaare that story has a surprise of its sleeves. Now some people know there is other OS other than Windows. 2005-09-12 3:54 pm markob I doubt it, since Linux is still not easy enough for an average Joe, not to even mention drivers-related nightmares and lack of decent software (Photoshop, Corel and most important: games). Sure, WoW works like a charm in my Ubuntu, but no one wants to edit config files, make symbolic links, apply patches, … People don’t wanna downlaod some codecs and untar them in some directory, they just wanna click’n’play. Users want eyecandy by default. I could go on and on. Until that changes, people will stick with Windows, simple. We’ve seen totally crappy versions before (WindowsME anyone?) yet people LOOOOVED them. Also the money is no problem, since most users get Windows for free, that’s a fact…I bet even my granma could find and download Windows in a matter of minutes. 2005-09-12 6:27 pm Finalzone – Ubuntu is not Linux, it is a Linux distro. – Drivers: Windows alone has a problem as well therefore it is no different. For example, Windows XP won’t recognize Epson Stylus CX4600 while Ubuntu or Fedora 4(I use it) will do thanks to their frequent updates. That’s why manufactures usually provide CDs for installing driver for Windows. – Codecs: Windows XP comes with mp3 support and its own formats (asx, wma, etc) but does not include other formats like real, quicktime. – Games: they represent a few percentages compared to console games like Playstation 2 or Xbox. Also the money is no problem, since most users get Windows for free, that’s a fact…I bet even my granma could find and download Windows in a matter of minutes. Compared the initial PC specification without Windows with another without. Do the math. 2005-09-12 6:42 pm Finalzone Adding to this quote: Also the money is no problem, since most users get Windows for free, that’s a fact…I bet even my granma could find and download Windows in a matter of minutes. Now you are lying. Unless you talk about pirate copy, Windows OS cannot be downloaded, you will need to buy it. Windows also has hidden costs: it does not include any office suite, image editor, firewall (you need to get WinXP services Pack2 CD if you are from Win9x/Win2000 background) on which viruses inflitrate after you finished to install XP, antivirus. Spywares/malwares are the major problem on Windows so you will need to get application like Adwares from Lavasoft. Rsult, your grandma will toss her computer when she does these stuffs. 2005-09-12 4:01 pm Anonymous By anonymous, IP 24.1.171.—: “Novell has made hundreds of statements over the years of which 99% eventually proved to be utter nonsense. Whenever Novell makes claims about the failure of Microsoft, I buy more Microsoft stock.” Interesting …. where did your stock go today? http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=l&c= http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=NOVL&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=l&c= And what about: “Our next version will be the most secure OS available.” Gates used that phrase while releasing ME, 2000 and XP and they are using it again for longhorn/Vista. Now they are even recycling there own marketing …. Fantastic company MSFT, stock hasn’t gone anywere (except one small jump) in ages. Good investment … really good. I made 66% daytrading Novell during the past 6 months. What about you? 2005-09-12 6:17 pm japail http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=NOVL&t=1y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c= http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=1y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c= 2005-09-12 8:02 pm Anonymous Novell is trading at 7.29 a share. Last Months Range $5.82 — $7.12 Not a good thing for longtime shareholders. A lot of their stock was purchased in the 14-15 dollar range, and has been held by the same people for ages. I trade stock for a living, and I would know about all the cute little charts and graphs and shit. Most of that data is all but worthless to those who are already in the soup. My point is simple: Until they get those numbers UP a long ways from where they are now, pressure is huge for them to make things happen yesterday. 2005-09-12 4:09 pm Anonymous I just reinstalled Windows XP Pro on my desktop, but I had Vista Beta 1 on there which I got from an Academic Alliance package that my CS department has, and it is going to kick ass for the average user. Seriously, the new 3D interface is far beyond KDE and GNOME in terms of coolness to John Q. and do remember that these people don’t care about HIGs and things like that. Even I, as a big time Mac fan, was taken aback by the coolness of their new 3D interface. It was slow as hell, requiring about 440MB of RAM, but it was damn cool as a concept and will probably end up being much better in the final release. In case anyone wants to see some screenshots I took of it running stuff like Firefox, I have some here on my blog: http://www.blindmindseye.com/archives/2005/09/my_experience_w.html Eye candy doesn’t translate into technical quality, we all know that, but it certainly does give the illusion of that to the average user. Something tells me that Vista will actually solidify Windows’ position against Linux rather than weakening it. With the way that hardware keeps evolving, in another year, many people will be able to afford to buy an upgrade or full copy of Vista. As that article on OSNews about giving Windows away suggested, as long as Microsoft is raking in the cash on Office, they don’t need to immediately worry about the penetration of Vista. Remember, it did take Microsoft about 2 years to get Windows XP into the majority among its users. 2005-09-12 6:00 pm Anonymous How the hell is that anything to get excited over? It looks like WinXP with an updated theme. If that is all it takes to make people happy, it shouldn’t be hard for Gnome and KDE to replicate this. I consider Vista to be WinXP SP3 at this point. Oooohhh, look at the shiny. Doesn’t make it a better OS than XP. It will be riddled with holes and probably have no more security against virii and spyware than XP has today. 2005-09-12 6:23 pm japail What, you mean that you don’t consider it a NT5 service pack? Why not? 2005-09-12 4:10 pm Anonymous It’s already happening: high cost, security holes, viruses, and spyware are driving more and more businesses to Linux. You can see wherever you go. 2005-09-12 4:17 pm Anonymous Our company has recently switched to Linux and it was one of the best choice we’ve ever made. We have already saved thousands of dollars in licensing fees and have a secure and stable system now. Maintainance is much easier and our sysadmins are happy and relax again. My recommendation: go for Linux. 2005-09-12 4:26 pm Anonymous same here. we’ve migrated our servers to Linux(100% uptime so far) and have just switched all the desktops as well. what a relief! an additional benefit of Linux is that you have thousands of free quality software packages. now is a perfect time to migrate, save some money, and get a better system. 2005-09-12 4:32 pm Anonymous I’ve been an ardent Linux user since 1995, when Slackware and Tom’s Window Manager were about the hottest things going. This announcement from Novell is pure marketing, and anyone who works in corporate America knows what the marketing department is always full of. Anyone who buys anything based on what the marketing people publish is a fool’s fool. Linux will get better and better at what it does well and continue to be left behind on what it doesn’t do so well – – which, basically, translates into “getting along with Microsoft’s filesystems, file sharing mechanisms, and extended protocols.” Yes, I know all about Samba, and it’s lame, to be kind. It’s hard to imagine any serious enterprise using it for mission-critical processes. And if your workstation struggles to play well in a Microsoft environment, why bother? You have to love Linux for what it can do, but corporate Windows admins can sleep comfortably knowing that, in this lifetime, there will never be a stampede to anything that doesn’t have the word “Microsoft” stamped on it. Now, servers . . . . they’re another story. 2005-09-12 6:42 pm ma_d Does anyone use Windows file sharing in an enterprise environment? There are equivalents of many of Windows domain capabilities. The trouble is the mixed environment. 2005-09-12 7:45 pm Anonymous Does anyone use Windows file sharing?, you asked. You are kidding, right? Shares and mapped drives are all over the place in Windows networks. 2005-09-12 4:33 pm Hands I guess it’s inevitable that this kind of article would spawn lots of comments (flames) about Windows vs. Linux. The crux of the issue involves what companies will do since they are really the ones that control the largest amounts of money. The sad truth of the matter is that companies don’t always make decisions based on sandboxed issues. If there were a limited number of criteria to base a decision on, Microsoft would certainly lose the fight in many more decisions than they do. Then again, some of the fights that Linux has won would have been lost if all criteria were more limited. Unfortunately, a large number of decisions in the business world are influenced by politics. And, politics are influenced largely by the whims of executives. And, the whims of executives are influenced largely by emotions. And, emotions are influenced largely by friends, advertising, past decisions, money, etc. Just think about some of the decisions that have been made in the past by companies that you have worked at. The last company I worked at spent millions of dollars to stay with Windows and Dell even though the IT department could have saved those millions if they had been allowed to make better decisions. Microsoft and Dell weren’t completely at fault for all of the money lost, but the result was a huge loss in productivity due to cheap hardware and a cobbled-together software solution that wasn’t intended to run on Windows. 2005-09-12 4:34 pm Anonymous My brother owns a mid-size company and they have switched to Linux recently. He says the installation was very easy and he is very happy with it. From the savings(site licenses, anti-virus subscriptions, etc.) he can buy another server right there. 2005-09-12 4:47 pm Anonymous I am a system administrator for a logistics company. As we went from Windows to Linux my life went from hell to heaven. We are in the process of opening two new locations and have been discussing Linux vs. Vista for the new systems. Besides the issues of interoperability and security my boss already sees the huge improvements Linux has brought for us and has decided not to bother with Vista and use Linux from the start. 2005-09-12 6:52 pm Bending Unit *cough*bullshit*cough* 2005-09-12 4:39 pm Anonymous By the time Vista rolls around, KDE 4.x will be out and will support Plasma, which will provide 3D graphical features that Vista doesn’t/probably won’t have. Linux environments are *not* behind in eye-candy… Windows is. Vista is not released and no amount of talking like it is will change that – KDE 3.4 is here now and has many features including true 3d-accelerated transparency NOW. Crank the eye candy on KDE and load SuperKaramba – if you don’t care about system resources (I do, and thankfully I have a choice!) Regarding apps: OpenOffice, KOffice, Gimp, Scribus, Kontact, Apache + PHP, Kopete, et al. If you can’t do what you’re trying to do with those apps, then you probably need something vertical and have to put up with whatever costs you incur – that’s just the way it is… back in the day that may have meant you were buying an Indigo for over $70K. The quality of *nix apps is fast getting better, and is more than usable now. 2005-09-12 4:49 pm Anonymous I dont know how people cannot say this is not true, lets look. 1. Linux desktop will be vastly improved come late 2006. 2. Microsoft are already heading off Linux by tring various methods with XP and will with Vista(multiple versions) 3. Higher cost/specs requiered for Vista. 4. Security, virus’s, spyware ect…, people seem to forget the cost of these applications(not everyone gets the freeware). 5. The penny will drop and people will realize what they are truly missing out on. 2005-09-12 5:09 pm Anonymous Novell is a Linux vendor but they do have a point. As hard as I try I can’t come up with a decent number of arguments for using Vista but with at least a dozen arguments to use Linux. Business owners are not stupid and the more they know about Vista, including its insane hardware requirements, the more likely they will choose a Linux system. 2005-09-12 5:10 pm Jody Vista is a beast so it will drive hardware sales, It is MS scratching the backs of the PC vendors. PC sales = Windows sales. Also, in return for MS selling the latest and greatest hardware for them, they have a loyalty to MS for at least a few years. Also, the hardware specs may seem a bit much now but in 2 years or so that will no longer be the case. You also cannot forget that most mainstream Linux distros are not running on 486’s. I find many distros to be slower than XP on the same hardware. They may be thinner than Vista after it is first released but that will (again) eventually change. This is hardly an industry first and the exact same thing was said about XP. 2005-09-12 5:18 pm Anonymous Nice try, Novell. Many, *MANY* companies didn’t upgrade from W2K to XP … those folks are likely saving their money to go straight to Vista. Or, perhaps even stay with W2K. If it works, don’t break it. Personally, I’ll stay with XP for awhile. Move to Linux? Not until *MAJOR* consumer applications are readily available. And that will be awhile. Linux rocks on the server, but leaves much to be desired on the desktop. Every distro I’ve tried (FC4, Linspire, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Suse) has disappointed me in numerous ways. 2005-09-12 5:27 pm Anonymous “saving their money to go straight to Vista”? I seriously doubt that a large company makes its upgrade cycle dependend on the availability of an operating system. If they need new machines they will not wait for Vista but go with spanking new Linux servers that are less expensive, less costly to maintain, faster, and more secure. There are hundreds of major consumer applications(Open Office, Gimp, etc. etc.) available for Linux. In fact, this is an additional cost saving factor. Linux has been the choice for servers for the past several years and in terms of desktops it has become easy to install and user friendly and it does not have all the problems that plague Windows systems such as viruses and spyware. 2005-09-12 5:34 pm Anonymous I depends what you expect “*MAJOR* consumer applications” have good solid alturnative OSS without the cost. Alot of people just dont realize what you can get for linux, that includes applications like Maya, Shake. Also the idea is that Linux doesn’t need the so called “MAJOR* consumer applications”, as long as it plays your msuic, burns cd’s/dvd’s, browsers the web, and writes a letter and so on. 2005-09-12 5:21 pm gilboa It never ceases to amaze me, how Windows Zealots (and God knows OSNews has its share of them), seem to miss one important point. Even if you’re willing to install Windows in your own brain and you have a picture of Bill Gates on your desktop you have vested interest in Linux’ success. Why? Because without competition Microsoft will continue to drain your pockets, giving you nothing in return. No competition means no innovation. It’s as simple as that. Before you post the usual “Windows Vista will rule!!!”, take another breath and consider this: Compare the first 10 years of personal computing: (1980-1990) MSDOS, Amiga, Windows 1/2/3, OS2, Unix, Linux (91). Compare them to the last 10 years: (1995 – 2005) Windows NT 4.0, Windows 2000, Windows ME, Windows XP. How can one compare the huge steps in which the PC OS world went between 1980 and 1990 to total stagnation in which the OS world stands since the death of the OS2. Four OS releases in 10 years, and all MS could do is better PNP, fisher price icons and numerous service packs? If you consider this “your money’s worth” then you’re truly worthy for the poor service MS has given you during the years. Even the dumbest of all Windows zealots should understand that having Vista push client into Linux’ hands, forcing Microsoft to invest large sums of money into R&D (instead of marketing) and maybe, just maybe, Vista 2007 (or what-ever they call it) will offer users something beyond better looking icons. Get it into your heads. 2005-09-12 6:26 pm Anonymous I think most of you are missing the point, they are not talking about “home joe bob”. Buisness, schools and goverments are the target. Sure home user joe could care about the price of the upgrade of visit bittorrent. Buisness that deploy thousands of box’s are a different story. jlc 2005-09-12 6:39 pm Marcellus “The high costs of migrating from Windows XP to Windows Vista will be the catalyst that encourages more companies to seriously consider moving to desktop Linux, according to open source and networking company Novell on Monday.” So… Novell apparently knows how much moving from Windows XP to Windows Vista will cost… before prices for Vista is even available. Other than that, any company that thinks they can save money by moving to Linux, will have to do “cost of migration” calculations and other stuff to decide if it’s worth changing to a different OS or upgrading to something that they likely know a lot better already. License costs+Cost of migration and cost over time needs to be enough lower to do a radical change. I think that and other things will make a lot of these companies stay on Windows rather than move to Linux. 2005-09-12 6:45 pm ma_d I think you will notice he doesn’t say Linux will become dominant or anything. He says it will gain shares. “The cost of migrating to Windows XP to Vista will be higher than the cost of migrating to Linux and that will push migrations to Linux,” Messman said. Argue about the costs, but I think he’s right. There are companies out there, probably especially in Europe, who don’t like Microsoft. And they only stay on because it’s too much to switch to anything, much less Linux. But, here comes Microsoft with a significant upgrade; and all of a sudden they know they *need* to switch to either the new Windows or Linux. If only 1% of those groups chose Linux, Messman would be right. 2005-09-12 6:57 pm Anonymous //Even the dumbest of all Windows zealots should understand that having Vista push client into Linux’ hands, forcing Microsoft to invest large sums of money into R&D// Even the dumbest of Linux zealots should understand that Microsoft already invests *BILLIONS* of dollars into R&D: http://searchexchange.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid43… Come to think of it, they probably wouldn’t understand that. Which is why they don’t make major purchasing decisions for companies, and instead get all excited about manually compiling their Distro X kernel to support their wireless card. We stupid Windows zealots don’t have that luxury. We have to: 1. Insert the wireless card into our box 2. Boot into Windows XP. 3. Insert the driver CD, click “Next” and “Finish” 4. Immediately use the wireless network. Dumb, we are. 2005-09-12 7:40 pm ma_d In software, everything is R&D. It’s total bullshit to even try and seperate them. I think google understands this better than any corporation out there: Let people work on pet projects, and when they become handy for the times make them a priority. 2005-09-12 7:47 pm Anonymous @ Anonymous (IP: 69.209.16.—) We stupid Windows zealots don’t have that luxury. We have to: 1. Insert the wireless card into our box 2. Boot into Windows XP. 3. Insert the driver CD, click “Next” and “Finish” 4. Immediately use the wireless network. Hmm… That was a lot to do. In most GNU/linux distros all you gotta do are: 1) Insert wireless card 2) Immediately use the wireless network Sometimes it’s not that easy, but that goes for XP and 2K3 and 2K and all other Windows flavours. Pnp doesn’t work too well, and in Windows, drivers are often missing. You need a lot of cd’es to install windows (and drivers), and all you get is a basic system, extremely crippled. With most GNU/linux distros you get a complete system, all setup so you can start working immediately. Compiling the kernel is something geeks do, because they want to control every aspect themself. I’m one of these – and actually. Anyway, it’s damn straight simple to compile a kernel. If you know how to unpack an arj-file with arj.exe then you’re smart enough to compile a kernel. I’m using windows (and have done so for 15 years and dos since 1987 – and windows is better today than in 1990) as well as GNU/linux, so don’t call me a linux zealot, because I am no zealot. However, MS sux due to its strategy. Complete lock-up in all aspects, just look at XAML. dylansmrjones kristian AT herkild DOT dk 2005-09-13 4:48 pm gilboa Even the dumbest of Linux zealots should understand that Microsoft already invests *BILLIONS* of dollars into R&D: http://searchexchange.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid43….. Come to think of it, they probably wouldn’t understand that. Which is why they don’t make major purchasing decisions for companies, and instead get all excited about manually compiling their Distro X kernel to support their wireless card. We stupid Windows zealots don’t have that luxury. We have to: 1. Insert the wireless card into our box 2. Boot into Windows XP. 3. Insert the driver CD, click “Next” and “Finish” 4. Immediately use the wireless network. Dumb, we are. Reading the next 5 lines was too hard for you nimble brain was it? Couldn’t make it? Had to post without reading? Typical. You know what, even if you are correct… This is it? 10 years of all development? Four OS iterations? 600$ per head in upgrade fee, 100,000,000,000 in revenue to get “next, next, next, finish wireless” and fisher price icons? Semi functional firewall? .NET? Even if Windows is indeed the best thing since sliced bread, having Linux success will further push Microsoft into improving your favorite OS. This should even be clear the dumbest of all MS users. Geez! Why I bother to answer trolls is beyond me. 2005-09-13 4:51 pm gilboa Geez! Why I bother to answer trolls is beyond me. Let me correct myself. … Geez! Why do I bother to answer trolls that cannot even operate the reply option (or even answer the right thread) is beyond me. 2005-09-12 7:26 pm Sean Parsons In my department at work, which consists of about 120 employees, we currently use XP on a 1GHz machine with 256 MB of ram. Our neeeds involve certain applications providing certain functionality, and eye candy is a non issue (we can’t even install our own wallpapers). To upgrade to Vista would require us to replace all of our machines, as they will be incapable of running Vista. Vista will provide NO major functionality advantage over XP for us, and all but one of our applications have a viable OSS alternative. Cerner being our one required app is actually ran remotely, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see a work around created to connect with it. We will most likely stay with XP till it is end of lifed, and then consider the cost ratio of buying all new expensive hadware versus migrating to a Linux solution. The money saved from licensing fees (both OSes will cost money but OSS apps will save $$$) alone could probably cover the neccesary cost of retraining staff. Where I work may or may not be the average scenario, but desktop linux in the corporate domain WILL continue to grow. 2005-09-12 7:43 pm ma_d Realistically. By the time XP is EOL’ed your hardware will be dead.. We’re talking about you using decade old hardware, and with the present quality of most PC hardware that’s unlikely (10 years ago, PC hardware was of a much higher quality). 2005-09-12 7:52 pm Anonymous @ ma_d Realistically. By the time XP is EOL’ed your hardware will be dead.. We’re talking about you using decade old hardware, and with the present quality of most PC hardware that’s unlikely (10 years ago, PC hardware was of a much higher quality). You really don’t grasp it. In companies you can easily use the same hardware and software for a decade, perhaps even two or three decades. This is why SWD and SWK can be very challenging. Your are probably so young that you don’t remember windows 3.1, nor dos 3.3. If you did, you would know that it’s not a rule of nature, that you must upgrade your hardware (and software) constantly. dylansmrjones kristian AT herkild DOT dk 2005-09-12 8:12 pm g2devi > If you did, you would know that it’s not a rule of > nature, that you must upgrade your hardware (and > software) constantly. What many people don’t realize was that Y2K was an anomaly. Back then, companies upgraded to Y2K compliant hardware and software en mass because they had no choice There was a huge increase in tech capital and that kickstarted the dot-com bubble and the hype that you needed to upgrade every 6 months, or you’d be left behind. After the dot-com crash, businesses were left with more hardware than they needed and much software that didn’t fulfill it’s original promises. Businesses have been very reluctant to make large tech purchases. The budget just isn’t there. And when tech purchases happen, it had better be for a good reason. At this stage, Vista doesn’t seem to provide anything compelling for *businesses*. Getting back to the “hardware will break down” scenario, yes, it’s true. Hardware will break down, but most big companies have site licenses and standard operating environments. When they replace hardware, they don’t purchase it with Windows installed or if they do, they wipe it out and re-image it with their standard operating environment. There are companies that are *still* using Windows NT even though it’s been end-of-lifed years ago. Companies just don’t want to change unless they are forced kicking an screaming to do it. 2005-09-12 11:40 pm ma_d I’m quite aware. I manage a couple of almost decade old RAID’s on Digital Unix systems at work; well only one Digital Unix system left. They’ve run perfectly for this long because… they were very high quality machines. The way he described their hardware it sounded cheap, and the way he described the systems it didn’t sound like maintenance was something they do a lot of. If you have cheap, less than perfectly maintained, hardware you will be replacing it in well under a decade. Why? Cheap fans last 2-5 years tops. Broken fans that aren’t attended to at first symptoms tend to leave things overheating. And certain cheap hard disks are an even worse story. My point had nothing to do with the upgrade cycle that pc users experience, but with the current state of pc hardware: In a word; cheap crap. 2005-09-12 7:44 pm sappyvcv Chances are, you’d be able to run Vista on that hardware easily just by disabling Aero altogether. 2005-09-12 7:48 pm Anonymous How can the developing world keep up with the growing cost of Windows, if there are even organizations and people who can’t afford it in the first world? Linux on the desktop is really the only option for people who can’t afford $200+ a seat. The crippled versions of Microsoft’s clients won’t and don’t offer the functionality of ANY modern free operating system. Apple aims at the high-end of the consumer market. Both selling to consumers, and to rich ones at that creates at most a niche market. This is regardless of how disirable their hardware/software combinations might be. And unfortunantly Apples low-end is very low-end and not worth it if price/performance is at all a concern. Linux will be the winner (Worldwide) EVENTUALLY, unless something else that is just as technologically capable, FREE/Libre, and costs nothing is released! The people in the United States can continue to be abused by Microsoft for convience sake if they want to for the forseable future BUT the rest of the world are not already hooked into M$’s vendor lock-in. And they can’t afford to be. 2005-09-12 7:46 pm Anonymous They sell Linux. What else should they say? Omfg, Vista is so much advanced, it’ll kill our sellings in days? This is not news, this is nonsense. Please stop. 2005-09-12 7:50 pm Anonymous Windows XP Vs Hurd discuss. 2005-09-12 11:43 pm ma_d Um, well I suppose they both started development at similar times. But XP works now, and worked 4 years ago. HURD still isn’t “officially ready.” Is that good enough for ya? HURD is just too tempting to make fun of, isn’t it? 2005-09-12 8:12 pm Anonymous By Sean Parsons on 2005-09-12 19:26:51 UTC: Vista migration will be an uphill battle Where I work may or may not be the average scenario, but desktop linux in the corporate domain WILL continue to grow. Most defenitely and it’s unstoppable.MS should be happy if it can remain it’s artificial entertainment position,the server market is becomming very tough for them. Is it an coincidence that only one of almost all super computers is non-Linux? 2005-09-12 8:24 pm DigitalAxis Yes, Microsoft Vista is a very cool thing, and I’m sure it will outperform any current desktop*, they’re not going to be competing against the current desktops. They’ll compete against Mac OS 10.5, KDE 4 with Plasma and Arthur and all that, Gnome 2.whatever with Cairo, anything on X with transparency, and hopefully a finished version of E17. The problem with Windows is that it’s still going to be controlled by Microsoft, and all the reasons that make people want to switch or stay with Linux will probably still be there. On the other hand, anyone wanting to switch a business to Linux is gonna have to get all their applications to work with Linux, all their databases talking to Linux, setting up connectivitity and all the things that go with it. The question is, will they have to do so with Vista to the point where it would be equally easy to move to Linux? *although given that they pointed out a great new feature that was something iPhoto’s had for a while, I have to wonder if that’s all they got or they’re giving people simple little things to look at 2005-09-12 8:39 pm Anonymous I dont want a bunch of noodle heads that expect Linux to be Windows. If you dont want to learn Linux and realize that its differences make it superior then stay on XP or Vista. As for me, Ill put that extra $$ from the M$ tax toward better hardware. -nX- 2005-09-12 8:59 pm Anonymous If it weren’t for Windows, Hardware would max out at P3/64M/MX440 because Linux wouldn’t need anything faster or bigger to run 2005-09-12 9:05 pm g2devi > Ill put that extra $$ from the M$ tax toward better hardware Actually, it’s a bit more complex. for larger companies, it works out like this. short term cost of migration = cost of retraining + cost of finding equivalent software + cost of rewriting inhouse software + cost of hardware upgraded + cost of OS licenses + cost of software licenses and initial upgrades long term cost of migration = cost of retraining + cost of finding equivalent software + cost of rewriting inhouse software + support cost (either from RedHat/Novell/… or internal)+cost of interoperating with the existing infrastructure. (Most role outs are done in stages) if short term cost of migration for Linux is less than short term cost of migration for Vista and long term cost of migration for Linux is less than long term cost of migration for Vista then Linux is the obvious choice. if short term cost of migration for Linux is more than short term cost of migration for Vista and long term cost of migration for Linux is more than long term cost of migration for Vista then Vista is the obvious choice. Otherwise, it’s a judgement call based on the business’ priorities. 2005-09-12 9:20 pm Anonymous You are absolutely right. Novell should have summarized it just as clearly as you did. For most companies that equation is already tipping in favor of Linux and if you factor in secondary costs such as meeting Vista’s hardware requirements and recurring costs such as anti-virus software licenses it becomes a very clear case for Linux. 2005-09-12 9:44 pm Anonymous Another reason to migrate to Linux is its excellent support of 64 bit systems which will be always ahead of that of Windows’. Anyone who’s ever seen Linux on a 64 bit Athlon machine knows the performance it gets out of it. 2005-09-12 10:35 pm Sphinx I quit when it broke my favorite games. Some people just can’t get enough of the MS pain-go-round. Sooner or later you’ll all wise up and step off. Just aint worth it. 2005-09-12 10:36 pm Anonymous Many companys still havent moved all their machines on to xp. 2005-09-13 2:52 am Anonymous I don’t realy mind having friends who own Windows based computers just because their kids have to do their homework with MS Office applications. And I can’t care less when their systems start crashing since I DO CHARGE them small feee for numerous fixes I have to do for them on a daily basis. One among them was smart enough to listen to my LINUX stories and the other day he came home with a Linux Format magazine and shrink-wraped SuSE 9.2 DVD. Since then I had no calls from him. His aging e-Machines 466 Celeron is now humming Novel cameleon OS and as long as his kids know how to save their homewroks in .rtf and *.doc format he is more than happy. By the time Vista shows up on shelves houndreds of thousands of Linux Format Magazine, Linux User & Developer and other linux oriented magazines will be sold with their free copies of various linux distributions cutting deeper into Microsoft OS marketshare. Windows has never been available for free on shelves next to our daily breat !!! And Novell SuSE 9.3 can be installed over FTP installation method for free ! While my MS-lovers friends still can say “Hey I’ve got my new ( Windows XP based) PC for $ 350” I can only answer this: “Wait ’till you have to shell out couple more hundreds for office applications, antivirus, firewalls yearly subscriptions… and couple more for my small fee – just for friends” good luck Vista 2005-09-13 12:01 pm Anonymous Windows Vista are due to be released on the anniversary of Perl Harbour. Are we supposed to draw some conclusions from that ? DG 2005-09-13 5:05 pm Anonymous //Geez! Why do I bother to answer trolls that cannot even operate the reply option (or even answer the right thread) is beyond me.// Likely because you have nothing better to do, sitting there in your parent’s basement. Asshat. 2005-09-13 9:21 pm gilboa And yet again you fail to operate the reply button. Sad. Just sad.