Home > Multimedia, AV > FAQ: HD DVD vs. Blu ray FAQ: HD DVD vs. Blu ray Eugenia Loli 2005-10-01 Multimedia, AV 63 Comments Microsoft and Intel last week tried to swing the computing, consumer electronics and entertainment industry toward HD DVD in a format war to establish a higher-capacity successor to today’s DVD. It didn’t work. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 63 Comments 2005-10-01 8:32 pm Accident Just let them make a dual format drive. We have no problem with DVD in it dual +/- and dual layer state as of now. 2005-10-01 11:49 pm Who is That we will need 2 lasers then, hd dvd uses the red laser of cds and dvds and blue-ray uses a blue laser. 2005-10-01 8:39 pm 1c3d0g …the problem with Dual Formats is that in this case it’s nearly impossible to make one drive read and write both formats. The formats are completely different, and since nobody is willing to give in, we have a real problem in our hands. Sure it could be possible to make one drive read both formats, but it will cost a hell of a lot more than most people could pay. Me, I’m a firm believer in the technologically superior Blu-Ray format and hope it wins sooner rather than later. 2005-10-01 8:41 pm Square I don’t think blueray or HD dvd will be a hit. The probelem being that normal dvds are just good enough. Even if you have a HDTV, dvds are more then capable of that rez for a standered movie. The few rare situations such as lord of the rings probably wont push the masses to adopt and spend the money on a new system just to not have to change disks for the 2-3 movies that can’t fit on a normal dvd at full res. As for a storage medium for PCs .. even now its rare to find software come on a dvd and even more rare for a double layer dvd. By the time TVs come out that can even support full HD DVD res, and software that requires that kind of space to install, a better tech will have been created leaving HD DVD in the history books along with lazer disk, betamax and svcd. I’m sure the’ll push HD dvd like no tomarow, in a vien atempt to resale movies and heh stop piracy. But I just dont see the masses adopt it 2005-10-01 9:13 pm rayiner DVDs are certainly not good enough. Regular DVDs look like crap on our HDTV. They just don’t have the resolution. 2005-10-02 3:38 am mabhatter Gotta say right on! I’ve got an OK dvd recorder that upscans to 720P but it’s just not the same as true HD i1080 over the air. I’d like to know why DVD can’t be “hacked” to get better quality out of it…. Mpeg 4/Divix or even Mpeg 7! heck, I’d be willing to keep my PC connected if there was something useful out there. hey, there’s a fun project! OSS formats to output HDTV specs… as well as create cool programming. What would it take to run 15 minute shorts in Xvid and say podcast them? itms, Pixar… listening??? 2005-10-01 11:53 pm Who is That 1) not if you watch a normal dvd on an HD tv 2) you can use a writable HD DVD or Blue-ray disk for massive data backup, a job for which normal DVDs are NOT useful for in todays age of thousands of 4-5 MP image libraries and thousands of MP3 Libraries. 2005-10-02 3:50 am I absolutely agree. Neither Blu-ray nor HD DVD will make it. Today’s DVDs are just good enough and most people have DVD players already. For high-res such as HDTV it is simply a matter of using a better codec or perhaps 2-3 instead of one DVD. People will not go out and spend more money to purchase new devices because of a new standard but rather share content online, save it on their harddrives, and watch it on their big screens. 2005-10-02 1:05 pm Yes. And 640KB RAM should be enough to anyone. <: 2005-10-01 8:46 pm Adam A Seems to me we just got DVD’s yesterday. And I still think of it as new technology and a novelty, perhaps its because I am from Ohio??? How many people have DVD recorders integrated in their home theaters??? 2005-10-01 11:54 pm Who is That many do not, but many have PVRs which are sufficient and superior to VCRs as far as time shifting goes. 2005-10-02 3:28 am mabhatter I do! [have a DVD recorder] Love it. It replaced all the functions of my VCR perfectly… a great [cheaper] compromise to the full TiVo experience… records WAY better than a VCR!!! 2005-10-01 8:48 pm saterdaies The problem is that neither camp wants to give up because they both stand to make a ton of money from it. If it was a free standard, no one would be worried about the money question and there would be a solution. As for dual-format technology, it just won’t happen because it makes it more expensive. DVD players have around a $20 intellectual property charge. If one wanted to make a nex-gen player with both Blu Ray and HD DVD and they charged the same for IP, you’d be shelling out $40 per player before you even calculated in the cost of the stuff needed to make a player. You don’t want to double the price of the IP involved in making your product for what is essentially no gain at all. Most techies instantly side with Blu Ray because of it’s slightly higher capacity (and because MS is backing HD DVD), but HD DVDs do have advantages. They will be cheaper. Their data layer is 5-10 times less close to the surface (I worry about scratches in Blu Ray DVDs regardless of what the Blu Ray camp says). The HD DVD technology is much closer to DVD technology meaning that it will be cheaper (as existing equipment can be retooled rather than replaced). Finally, HD DVD will be ready sooner. That’s not to say that Blu Ray is bad. It’s just going to cost more, arrive later, and probably be more easily damaged (Blu Ray manages its higher density by placing the data layer practically at the surface with very little protection). If you don’t consider the lowered protection hacky, it’s technologically more advanced than HD DVD – which is what techies see and want. Personally, I guess I would prefer something more tried and true. Plus, how much data storage are we going to need? Both formats use MPEG-4 (as compared with today’s DVDs that use MPEG-2). MPEG-4 is at least twice as efficient at the same quality which means 2 hours of DVD-video at 2.35GB rather than 4.7GB. Now, they are going to be giving us better quality video than DVDs do, but they aren’t going to have to increase storage that much to give us better quality simply because of the better codec. Either way, you know that it’s the consumer that’s going to loose from these non-free format wars. 2005-10-01 9:22 pm segedunum Both formats use MPEG-4 (as compared with today’s DVDs that use MPEG-2). MPEG-4 is at least twice as efficient at the same quality which means 2 hours of DVD-video at 2.35GB rather than 4.7GB. Now, they are going to be giving us better quality video than DVDs do, but they aren’t going to have to increase storage that much to give us better quality simply because of the better codec. Easy – use MPEG4 on regular DVD disks. Much cheaper and less hassle. However, it’s not really about that though. 2005-10-02 3:43 am mabhatter regular DVD PLAYERS can’t handle the compression programming… heck the cheap ones can barely handle Mpeg 2. For PC based home theatres, Mpeg 4 on DVD would be OK.. remember, HD is 6X the raw screen data of TV. PCs can easily handle it with 16x DVD drives and multi-GHZ standard, but in a consumer devices they can’t do that yet. 2005-10-02 2:30 am Well, I support Blu Ray because of the higher capacity. But with respect to MS and being against MS; somewhat false on my part. Java works on all platforms; will MS work on platforms (probably not): “Blu-ray uses Sun Microsystems’ Java software for built-in interactive features, whereas HD DVD uses a technology called iHD that Microsoft and Toshiba have worked on.” 2005-10-01 8:50 pm For movies, sure DVD is plenty for most people right now. Not that many people are able to display movies in higher res than DVD offers (aside from those who use computer monitors to watch them). But who wouldn’t be excited by the recordable version of Blu Ray? I would love to be able to back up a good chunk of my hard drive all at once. 50GB of storage on a single optical disk? Sign me up! -MO 2005-10-01 10:55 pm Should be enough for some of my pr0n partition: /mnt/pr0n 2005-10-01 9:18 pm segedunum These people pushing BluRay or HDDVD are deluding themselves. All these formats are about is creating a new standard to replace DVDs because certain people want better copy protection. That’s all these formats are for. That aside, what we’re left with is just how useful these formats actually are – and neither of them are useful at all. Higher quality films? You put an average DVD film with a decent bitrate on a decent quality projector and the quality is always going to be good enough. Better sound? How can it be made any better than it is without you actually being there? More interactivity? Please. Yer, people really want to buy films only to have Disney rope people into playing online games and promoting other products that will cost them even more money. And games? Well I’ve never seen one that needed more capacity than a dual-layer DVD. The capacity of these disks is laughable as well. 25GB? 30GB? 50GB? Goodness, I’ve had that capacity and more for years. That’s last century’s news. Maybe they should look at some decent compression? The only way any of this would be useful is if I could put all my films on one disk and play away to my hearts content without having to lift a finger and without all that crap on before hand. Microsoft’s response I also found quite revealing. With BluRay certain content producers may use copy protection to deny a user, or an operating system, permissions to copy on to a hard drive. Microsoft seem to think that’s a bad idea. If you can copy a film on to a hard drive, but copy protection must still apply, how is that film going to be protected in Windows? That’s right. With Microsoft’s own internal DRM software, completely bypassing anything it might have been protected by on the disk itself. Mind you, it does open the door for these disks to be copied whatever. All this is academic though. DVD was driven forwards because it was better quality than VHS, had better sound and you could do more with it. What really, really accelerated the support for DVD though was when people realised they could be copied and pirated (just like with VHS) and it was readily adopted by the porn industry. Without those magic ingredients BluRay and HDDVD are just damp squibs. People will just continue to by DVDs. Remember those DVD-Audio disks that were trumpeted, and you might have even seen some in shops? I did. No one bought them and now they’re no longer sold. 2005-10-01 11:57 pm Who is That and what about me who would like 50 -100 GBs of backup on one disk with a scratch resistant coating? 2005-10-02 1:06 am CPUGuy You’d be amazed at how much difference there is in HD as compared to regualr 480i, or even 480p. 2005-10-01 9:21 pm It’s all about movies I think, at least initially. What is the most used DVD player? Right, the PS2. And, although not as widespread, the Xbox. The console war is where the HD-DVD vs. BluRay battle is fought. Initially, Microsoft announced HD-DVD support for the Xbox360. Well, the final specs got announced in London recently, and the Xbox360 not even plays WMV9 DVDs (because of DRM issues it seems). A few million Xbox360s sold would have meant a few million potential HD-DVD movie customers, but this won’t happen now. Nintendo, like Microsoft, will only allow regular DVD playback, but obviously not OOTB. Sony, OTOH, is still expected to include BluRay video playback support with the PS3. A couple million BluRay players by the end of 2006. Plus, Sony’s able to ensure a steady flow of BluRay movies (Columbia Tristar, Screen Gems, Sony BMG). 2005-10-01 9:50 pm rm6990 It’s all about movies I think, at least initially. What is the most used DVD player? Right, the PS2. And, although not as widespread, the Xbox. Maybe in Geek land, yes. Out of the hundreds of people whom watch DVD’s that I know of, and the tens of people whose houses I have watched DVDs in, only 1 single person used a PS2 for watching DVDs. And even then, it was only as a secondary DVD Player for the downstairs Family Room. In the upstairs living room, where most of the movies were watched, they had a normal, Panasonic DVD Player. In-fact, except for kids, I can only think of 3 or 4 adults who even own a PS2 (one including the guy in the situation above). Most adults who work simply don’t have the time to sit around and play video games, so they just simply buy a DVD Player, as it is a hell of a lot cheaper (I can get one for $50 CDN). Of course I could be wrong, as I don’t have statistics. But from what I’ve seen, PS2s are not the most widely used DVD Players. If you have any other statistics or personal experiences, I’d be happy to see them Also, don’t forget. MS thinks people should be able to copy DVDs to their hard-drives, using their own DRM standard of course. This is their interest outside of consoles. Sony manufactures and sells stand-alone DVD Players, hence their interest outside of consoles. 2005-10-01 10:24 pm Maybe in Geek land, yes. Out of the hundreds of people whom watch DVD’s that I know of, and the tens of people whose houses I have watched DVDs in, only 1 single person used a PS2 for watching DVDs. And even then, it was only as a secondary DVD Player for the downstairs Family Room. In the upstairs living room, where most of the movies were watched, they had a normal, Panasonic DVD Player. In-fact, except for kids, I can only think of 3 or 4 adults who even own a PS2 (one including the guy in the situation above). Well, a lot of those adults who don’t have time to play on the PS2 have kids who do play games. And their parents figure they might as well use that for a DVD player rather than buying a seperate one. So the PS2 is a pretty popular DVD player. But you might be right, I’m not sure if its the MOST popular or not. 2005-10-01 11:04 pm Most widely used doesn’t mean it has a huge market share. But it’s much larger compared to every single other player on the planet even if only 2% of the PS2 users watch DVDs on that thing. I, for one, don’t – I have a PS2 as well as a much better Harman/Kardon DVD player, but that’s not the issue… Also, keep in mind that the PS3 has a different target market. It’s not really a toy for kids anymore – just look at the price tag, it’s targetted at adults, an all-in-one lifestyle product (similar to the PSP). So, I’d guess, many adults will buy the PS3 because it has “cool” games, allows you to surf the web (and maybe other things, if it relly has a full-blown Linux preinstalled like Ken Kutaragi said), plays BluRay movies and is just plain “hip”… 2005-10-02 3:49 am mabhatter “Also, don’t forget. MS thinks people should be able to copy DVDs to their hard-drives, using their own DRM standard of course. This is their interest outside of consoles. Sony manufactures and sells stand-alone DVD Players, hence their interest outside of consoles.” MS does have the market right on that one.. people want to space shift and time shift their shows without buying 5 pieces of media.. the whole MS thing is to get the movies off the disk an on the hard drive, cell phone, pda, etc… MS gets a dime from every device they can get the movie to run on. Sony is thinking like an media Publisher trying to sell more copies. MS goal with HD DVD is to get THEIR software everywhere… then they can tie other media players to the hardware and collect a toll on EVERYTHING like they do in the PC world! 2005-10-02 12:53 am > What is the most used DVD player? > Right, the PS2 BS… Generic DVD Players/Recorder unit sales can surplus PS2 installed base within 1 year. 2005-10-01 10:15 pm “HD DVD” give us only 15GB against 25GB of BlueRay, if the industry will invest in a new technology, I thing better to invest in BlueRay, more data either for video equipments, and for computer storage. The industry mus invest in MPEG-4 too. 2005-10-01 10:40 pm “HD DVD” give us only 15GB against 25GB of BlueRay To be really better than DVDs, a new format must: – Have around 25-75GB in first generation, possibly extending to 150 later – Have a ‘native’ codec that can deliver high definition AV at about 2GB/hour (mpeg4 is nearly there) and has all requirements of copy protection and so on – Be scractch resistant – Have a well defined filesystem which can be used transparently by tabletop video recording, PC editing and audio mastering (it’s not difficult, damnit, just make the first and the third a well defined subset of the second) – Completely support multisessions. – Have a standard frontend (UI) to easily access the content Otherwise, it’s just a big DVD. 2005-10-02 12:05 am Who is That that would be….. BLUE RAY!!! 😮 2005-10-02 11:12 am bn-7bc OK IMHO it’s plenty if a blue ray disk can hold 4h of hd (1800i) content with a 25GB disc that results in 6,25GB/h so if the codecs can manage that iy’s just fine. One question: how many movies ar longer than 4h? 2005-10-01 10:41 pm Easy – use MPEG4 on regular DVD disks. Much cheaper and less hassle. However, it’s not really about that though. That’s what I was thinking too for a long while. For immediate needs, a “Super-DVD” standard would be enough and easiest to introduce to the market. Standard DVD, but movies with MPEG-4. The same way the SVCD was for the old VCD format. 2005-10-01 10:55 pm JrezIN I don’t think that will happen… …but we already have WMV-HD discs in some movies special editions… (well… they evangelized it first… what can we do? ….) 2005-10-01 10:52 pm JrezIN It’s not about the technical advantages anymore… the HD-DVDs vs BDs “combat” is just about a patent war… the winner will bring a LOT of money to everyone involved in it’s creation… (just remember how much cheaper some chinese brands make their DVD Players by just not paying theses royalties) Also, in HD-DVDs camp, it’s a way to sell more new televisions with HDMI connections… But you’ll find a lot of dirt things in both sides… 2005-10-01 11:35 pm Well it’s great to have nice high volume storage mediums but at what price is the consumer willing to shell out for. As a canadian it is quite cheap to buy the dvd+/-r, around 20 bucks for 50 of them at 8x writting speeds but when I go to look for a DVD+/-R DL, the cheapest I’ve found canadian wise was 7 bucks a piece. Now when both of these new formats come out yes I do understand their prices will be high but around what figure is it gonna be??? The law of supply and demand will play a factor into the production and net value of them but will lets say canadians alone pay 30 to 35 bucks for a movie manufactured under both new formats. Then how much will each blank single layer medium be at 20,30 heck maybe even 40 bucks. As a concerned consumer i’ll wait it out to see just who has what offerings in the end to price per gig per medium. 2005-10-02 3:54 am mabhatter Don’t tell the warring companies, but you won’t be getting recordables any time soon.. they won’t make that mistake again. Too bad they’re all fighting because you hit the perfect way to lock in “copy protection”… pimp one format for PC recordables and the incompatible one for pressed movies!! 2005-10-02 12:08 am Bascule Both these formats are competing against an entrenched, “good enough” standard, DVD. These standards are competing for a niche role in a primarily upper class market that can actually afford HD sets. And you can bet movies on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will cost more than regular DVDs. So we can likely expect for the first 3-5 years after launch for both formats to be a monumental flop in terms of movie sales. HD-DVD will try to lower the price point by leveraging the combined financial power of a larger consortium, but there is no “killer app” for HD-DVD, nor will there likely be at any point in the near future. The first rev of XBox 360 will ship WITHOUT an HD-DVD drive, meaning game makers will be reluctant to make HD-DVD games for the XBox 360 because they feel they’ll be locking themselves out of the early adopter market, who are obviously the idiots willing to shill out lots of money for instant gratification rather than being patient and waiting for the price to become reasonable. Sony has a Blu-Ray killer app, the PS3. Every PS3 will ship with a Blu-Ray drive. And game makers can feel safe releasing games on Blu-Ray knowing that they’ll be compatible with every PS3 on the market. Furthermore, PlayStation is the powerhouse player in the video game market, and will allow Sony to move large volumes of Blu-Ray drives, dramatically lowering the price point. 3-5 years down the road, by the time your average joe actually owns an HD set and is trying to decide between HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, thanks to Sony pushing production of the drives and discs through the PS3 market and lowering the price point through volume sales that will be virtually absent in the movie market, Blu-Ray players and discs will be cheaper. So that’s what our joe will buy… Yes, sorry HD-DVD, competing with an entrenched standard + no killer app == you’re screwed! 2005-10-02 8:03 am Nicely said, Bascule, as usual, but there just may be a big fly in your PS3-killer-app-theory ointment there. What if the PS3 comes out costing $800 to $1000, because of its more exotic hardware and the fact that Sony isn’t Microsoft and can’t afford to subsidize the heck out of their situation long enough to make sure they sell so-many-millions of units like Bill can? The Xbox360 will have a big head-start, may cost half as much and Sony can’t really beat it on the quality of their games. I noticed Sony just fired another 6% of its workforce the other day and has dumped their CEO recently for some new media guy. They will also be closing or selling about 15% of their manufacturing facilities very soon (like, this year). They are struggling just to stay alive. It is no joke to say that Microsoft may be in a position to take the future game console market away from Sony this time just because they can afford to price Sony out of the market. There is no guarantee that the PS3 will sell like the PS2 did and reach those same numbers. All this is just my opinion, but I think that Blu-Ray is far from assured of victory over HD-DVD at this point. 2005-10-02 9:16 am What if the PS3 comes out costing $800 to $1000 Or, what if the PS3 comes out costing $8000 or even $10,000? What if the PS3 costs more than an SUV? Neither Blu-Ray nor Sony’s position on the universe are assured. But all indications are that the PS3 will debut at $399 – a bit high, but not a grand. No parent is going to spend a grand on a game console for their 12 year old, and Sony is well aware of that. The idea is to get them to spend many thousands, over many birthdays and holidays! 2005-10-02 3:41 pm Blah, blah…But all indications are that the PS3 will debut at $399 – a bit high, but not a grand…blah, blah blah… Link? I’d love to see you back that one up. So far there have been no indications of any kind as to what the PS3 will sell for, which is worrisome. The only ‘indicator’ I have seen is a Sony exec telling an interviewer to stop talking like the PS3 is going to be another toy – ‘it is going to be a high-end device and it will be priced accordingly, so stop seeding the expectation that everyone will own one’. There is no guarantee the PS3 can or will be priced similar to the PS2 at all and be able to target the same broad market. 2005-10-02 9:53 pm Link? I’d love to see you back that one up. So far there have been no indications of any kind as to what the PS3 will sell for, which is worrisome. Of course there’s no official announcement of a price point; I said ‘all indications.’ Merrill Lynch Japan, which follows Sony more closely than any analyst in the west, has analyzed the expected bill of materials and knows Sony’s business models and previous console subsidy percentages and says the number is likely to be $399. They were spot-on with the PS2 and PSP so I think they’re worth paying attention to. Google is your friend. Even if Merrill Lynch Japan is completely off, only someone completely ignorant of how the console market works could believe for a second that the price point is going to be $1000. It’s just an insane suggestion. If the PS3 debut price is surprising it’ll be because it’s lower than $399 not higher. None of this means that Blu-Ray will win. Whoever was spouting off earlier in the comments about most DVD movies being watched on PS2’s was also nuts and knows nothing about the DVD market. 2005-10-02 11:29 pm Google is my friend. From the horse’s mouth… Two months ago, Ken Kutaragi, Sony Computer Entertainment president, was quoted in the Japanese magazine Toyo Keizai as “Our ideal [for the PS3] is for consumers to think to themselves, ‘OK, I’ll work more hours and buy it.’ We want people to feel that they want it, no matter what.” Then, Kutaragi told attendees of the company’s PlayStation meeting last month “I’m not going to reveal [the PS3’s] price today. I’m going to only say that it’ll be expensive.” In addition, he said “I’m aware that with all these technologies, the PS3 can’t be offered at a price that’s targeted towards households.” [Makes sense too, all of the Blu-Ray devices on the market right now are already quite expensive.] http://www.technologybizdev.com/2005/08/26/is-sony-bluffing-about-p… 2005-10-03 11:18 am The fatal flaw in the whole article: “It didn’t work”. It was a strategic move to lead to an eventual deathblow and Toshiba’s on the losing end. Paramount has jumped ship, and so will all the rest. 2005-10-02 1:29 am I did read in the article that Samsung said they would produce a dual format drive if no standard could be reached. Similar to the +R and -R standards currently in use. The other thing I wonder, what will be the read, and more importantly, the write speed of these drives? I mean, a 50 Gig drive at 2X? How many days would you like to wait for your BlueDVD? 2005-10-02 2:14 am “I mean, a 50 Gig drive at 2X? How many days would you like to wait for your BlueDVD” One hour, for a two hour movie. That’s what 2X means. A 2X BD will be faster than a 2X DVD, just as the DVD is faster than a 2X CD. 2005-10-02 2:46 am Who is That 2x for blue ray will be different than 2x for dvd is different than 2x for cds 2005-10-02 1:55 am re_re It’s all about falling profits (or should I say… not increasing at projected rates) this is about 2 things, copy protection and falling dvd player sales. remember the uncrackable css encryption for dvd’s that was cracked by some Finish kid just a few months after it’s inception? Well, they want to fix this (so another Finish kid can crack it to lol). They need to change standards periodically because they don’t feel they are making enough money. (sarcasm) 2005-10-02 4:06 pm bn-7bc Wel the kid that hacked css was a norwegian jhon. 2005-10-02 3:09 am What is the most used DVD player? Right, the PS2. And, although not as widespread, the Xbox. ——— Got some facts to back that up? Sure the PS2 helped the DVD format become popular, but I think it would have been just fine without PS2 or XBox support. Anyways, I hope DVD beats out both HD DVD and blu ray. That would show the companies that us consumers arent putting up with their crap. I for one refuse to purchase a single next gen formatted movie until there is a single standard, either by way of one format losing or both sides agreeing on a single one (dont see that happening though) If either format want to succeed they need to offer something new to the customer in terms of convenience. Most consumers could care less that a DVD has better picture and sound quality than a VHS. What matters to them is that you dont have to rewind and that a DVD takes less shelf space when not in use. The industry is only fooling themselves if they expect people to rush out and start replacing their DVD players. It may happen at one point, but its going to take several, several years as currently owned players become worn out and break. Only when their DVD player breaks is when most will deal with upgrading. 2005-10-02 3:26 am Dually I remember reading about holographic storage media that would trump both HDDVD and BlueRay in capacity and speed. But it seems like both HDDVD and BlueRay will have a big battle before holographic storage is ready for joe average. But it would seem BlueRay will have an advantage to start over HDDVD based on capacity and its backing companies, plus the distrust a lot of consumers both technical and non have for Microsoft. A short bit about holographic storage from earlier this year. I know there is more information regarding it from other articles I have seen but alas I do not remember them and my google skills fail me at this hour. http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000603050948/ 2005-10-02 5:32 am Marcellus With HD-DVD’s you can get regular DVD and HD-DVD versions of a movie on the same disc. The Bluray camp claims they can do the same, but they have yet to prove that they can, and that it will be easier/cheaper to do it than with HD-DVD. It doesn’t cost as much to upgrade production lines to HD-DVD as they can reuse existing DVD lines, whereas with Bluray it has to be all new equipment. This, in the end, translates to higher prices for the consumer. HD-DVD allows at least one copy of the disc to be made so you can put it on a HTPC HD and play from there. This is not thanks to MS or MS-DRM like some people seem to think, but something that is mandatory in the DRM used on HD-DVD’s already. Bluray say that they CAN allow the same thing, but they refuse to say wether or not it will be MANDATORY as it will be for HD-DVD. Space issues. HD-DVD can do 30GB from start. Blueray camp have people saying they can do 50GB from start, while others insist that it will be 25 from start, and that 50 is several years away. But, does it even matter who holds the most data? Not one bit. I hear someone shout backup. To those I just have to say that DVD+-R/RW are already lousy for backups, with them turning unreadably easily within a year. (Re-)Writable Bluray/HD-DVD are not likely to be any different in that aspect. All in all, HD-DVD provides the best possible upgrade path for consumers, as well as producers really. 2005-10-02 5:49 am “With HD-DVD’s you can get regular DVD and HD-DVD versions of a movie on the same disc. The Bluray camp claims they can do the same, but they have yet to prove that they can, and that it will be easier/cheaper to do it than with HD-DVD.” And what would the point be? A standard DVD player still can’t read HD-DVD, so it would really make no sense. “It doesn’t cost as much to upgrade production lines to HD-DVD as they can reuse existing DVD lines, whereas with Bluray it has to be all new equipment. This, in the end, translates to higher prices for the consumer.” And this? How come? HD-DVD and BluRay *both* use blue laser, so you can’t just reuse existing DVD lines. And just think of it for a sec: what would have to be changed so a DVD player would run a HD-DVD? For starters, new logic chip to support iHD, a blue laser head, new decompression chips…All in all, everything that’s important in any way. Just as for BluRay. -WereCat 2005-10-02 6:07 am Marcellus You obviously misunderstood what I wrote completely. The point with DVD and HD-DVD on the same disc is so that normal DVD players can play the DVD content of that disc. And if you upgrade to a HD-DVD player later on, you have the movie in HD-DVD already. And production lines talk about the actual discs, not the players. For Bluray, you need completely new equipment to make the discs, but with HD-DVD you can upgrade the existing lines at a much cheaper cost than getting everything new again. 2005-10-02 9:03 am @Marcellius “It doesn’t cost as much to upgrade production lines to HD-DVD as they can reuse existing DVD lines, whereas with Bluray it has to be all new equipment. This, in the end, translates to higher prices for the consumer. ” It’s evolution vs. revolution … to me it makes perfect sense that completely new technology (with many more possibilities) requires new production lines … like laserdisc productionlines got replaced by CD/DVD lines. “Space issues. HD-DVD can do 30GB from start. Blueray camp have people saying they can do 50GB from start, while others insist that it will be 25 from start, and that 50 is several years away. ” BlueRay is selling NOW in Japan at 25Gb, while HD-DVD still is a prototype. Blueray may be saying a lot, but at least they have a product out, that’t can’t be said about HD-DVD (just postponed again). In a few months the first Blueray products will hit the market in massive quantities (PS3, computer by Dell, HP and Apple) and HD-DVD will still be ‘readying for launch’. “All in all, HD-DVD provides the best possible upgrade path for consumers, as well as producers really.” You do know that HD-DVD has MS backing right? When has MS ever done anything that made the consumer the winner-in-the-end? Tom’s hardwareguid has a nice interview on HD-DVD vs Blueray. http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050930_134726.html 2005-10-02 10:57 am Marcellus “You do know that HD-DVD has MS backing right? When has MS ever done anything that made the consumer the winner-in-the-end?” Sorry, but I don’t take as serious anyone that comes with uninformed arguments like that. 2005-10-02 7:30 am It’s amusing to read the comments of people convinced this is a conspiracy to force us to buy new discs or that we’re not going to need all this capacity anyway. Maybe you don’t have an HD set yet, but once you do, you’re going to want your movies in HD – the difference is real. And 15 gigabytes is just barely enough to hold 2 hours of 1080p HD video, which means 1) yeah we’re gonna need that capacity, and 2) if HD-DVD wins, all the decent discs will be dual-layer anyway. Instead of focusing our anger on one camp or another, it should be focused on BOTH: the greed of the patent pools is all that’s keeping us from a single standard. This isn’t like DVD-R and DVD+R; dual-format drives may come eventually, but these formats are very different so they’ll have a huge price penalty due to duplicate electronics and double IP royalties. Toshiba and friends, listen up. Sony and friends, listen up. We don’t want another format war! However it shakes out, if you don’t care about HD or video quality you can continue using your VHS tapes in peace. 2005-10-02 12:40 pm What most people are missing is that Blu-Ray is open standards based and HD-DVD is not. Blu-Ray is MPEG4 (H.264) and Java. HD-DVD is WindowsMedia and iHD. I really doubt that MSFT will let anyone in the open source market create a player for HD-DVD. I also don’t think MSFT should get a paycheck everytime I purchase a movie or a DVD player. 2005-10-02 11:04 pm Last time I saw a comparison, both discs would support MPEG4 AVC and VC-1 (WindowsMedia). http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#3.2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC-1 _V_ 2005-10-02 12:41 pm JustThinkIt Number one influencer of DVDs? The movie studios. People getting most ripped off right now by hackers? The movie studios. But what to do? People don’t much care about 25 or 30GB as opposed to 8GB. They sure the frig don’t care if it is 25 versus 30. They care if you force them to buy all your DVD movies over again. So, the answer is make it all about the new format, supposedly. Pretend there is a format war. Heh, look at the “buzz” it has created here of all places. Meanwhile we will all be forced to move away from copyable DVDs to uncopyable ones as the movie executives rub their hands with glee. Too many posters here are saying “Why bother switching?” Rest assured, we won’t have a choice. Just as we have DVD+/-/RAM now, we will have HD & BR next, with “better” DRM, bigger price and capacity that works out the same since the new movies will simply expand in quality to fill the available space anyway. 2005-10-02 3:18 pm Blu-ray uses Sun Microsystems’ Java software for built-in interactive features, whereas HD DVD uses a technology called iHD that Microsoft and Toshiba have worked on. I think it’s very interesting since I like Java. 2005-10-02 5:14 pm 1. The two sides could agree on a standard rather than puting comsumers through a pointless format war. I have an HDTV, so I’m hesitant to keep buying non-HD DVDs. 2. The disks will be durable. I’m sick of my NetFlix movies skipping and locking up because they are scratched. I have worries that the very thin protective layer on Blue-Ray will make this worse. I have heard of scratch resistant coatings that improve the situation, but we’ll see. 3. At least one FREE managed copy for use with portable players and in-home distribution. Obviously, non-managed would be cooler for us consumers, but the studios would NEVER allow that. HD-DVD makes managed copy a requirement, but unfortunatly, it isn’t required to be free. Blue-Ray may not allow ANY copies – we’ll see. Since neither standard fully supports what I want, I’m probably out of luck here. 4. Highest Capacity. This would be cool, but it isn’t my highest priority. Modern compression makes even the largest movies fit with room to spare (with a bunch of HD special features). Sure, LOTR with all of the special features in HD and TV season disks might take multiple 25GB disks, but that doesn’t really bother me. Both of these are “exceptions” to the normal case, and I doubt the studios will charge much less just because they have fewer disks. The only place where capacity REALLY matters is for recordable disk (I still don’t own a DVD+-RW, so its obviously not a huge deal for me either). 2005-10-02 11:17 pm 3. At least one FREE managed copy for use with portable players and in-home distribution. […] HD-DVD makes managed copy a requirement, […] Blue-Ray may not allow ANY copies – we’ll see. Since neither standard fully supports what I want, I’m probably out of luck here. I think both discs will have the same restrictions on their contents. AFAIK both will use AACS (Advanced Access Content System). Which, according to wikipedia, had both Sony and Microsoft involved with its development. Even if that information is incorrect, and they’ll have different Content Systems, I don’t think either will allow more than the other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Access_Content_System _V_ 2005-10-02 5:40 pm We can create change. People who pay money for Muisc and movies have rights too.