“Unlike a lot of people, I get very excited when a new beta of Ubuntu/Kubuntu is released. It’s amazing how Ubuntu has taken the Linux community by storm over the past couple of years. Finally, Linux is stepping up to be a real contender on the desktop.” Here is a first look at Ubuntu, and here at Kubuntu.
Gnome desktop seems more polite instead of kubuntu
The gnome vs. kde argument is old and basically is not worth arguing, it’s personal preference. Gnome, while pretty and simplistic lacks a lot of functionality that’s in kde. KDE while defaulting to a more windowys layout is really functional with some very convenient advanced features.
Obviously my choice is KDE but i’m a power user and I have certain requirements (kde has spoiled me).
We all have our opinions, I like Gnome better (a less colorful theme and icon set could help me a lot) and KDE is just overstuffed with icons, bars and what not all over the place. None the mater, when my sister asked me about Linux I recommended KDE.
I think, for those starting right now with Linux, KDE is the better choice. Lets face it KDE knows where it is heading with KDE4 but where is Gnome3 heading? I’ve been with Gnome since pre 1.0 and will stay with it, but I would like to know where too?
The future of GNOME looks extremely unsure. There are a few possible diretions. First there is Project Topaz (Three-Point-Zero), which is in the brain-storming phase right now, but already sounds like its suffering from “second system” syndrome. Then there is Novell’s version of the future, which is like GNOME 2.x, except with Mono. Lastly, there is the impression you get on the GTK+ mailing lists, which is massively conservative — the 2.x series is here to stay, and misfeatures (*cough* GDK *cough*) will never get removed, crap will just get piled on top of them.
> the 2.x series is here to stay, and
> misfeatures (*cough* GDK *cough*)
How can you say GDK is a misfeature? GDK is great. GDK provides an abstraction layer above platform native drawing calls, but below GTK. That is a very powerful because it abstracts a way a lot of platform specific issues that Gtk no longer has to worry about. That means if I want to port GTK to a new platform, all I have to do is port the GDK abstraction layer. I then get GTK for free. It also means that bug fixes in GTK only have to be done once because GTK code is intrinsicly portable.
This is a lot nicer than the mess that is Qt. Qt actually requires a special preprocessor because of extendsions it adds to the C++ language. That’s gross. And speaking of C++, Qt doesn’t even make good use of namespaces.
Gtkmm on the other hand (the C++ binding to Gtk) is probably the best, most object oriented toolkit out there for X. It is very well designed, and makes good use of namespaces.
page?
Nope. That’s why we don’t have them.
Why do they still use almost the same default blue/silver KDE theme?
http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=525&slide=4…
Although I prefer KDE, I think Gnome looks better when it’s skinned to Ubuntu’s look and feel
I suggest they skin KDE to Ubuntu’s identity
I must disagree. Although lately I use GNOME myself, the Kubuntu defaults for KDE are must more visually pleasing than the Ubuntu defaults for GNOME (IMHO), in terms of color scheme, etc.
I happen to find the brown of Ubuntu’s human theme quite ugly; it’s one of the first things I change (to clearlooks, which is also provided by default) when I (re)install Ubuntu.
I think Kubuntu’s theme should stay relatively the same. Nevertheless, if Ubuntu wants to take the risk with the non-standard brown look, go ahead, I suppose.
I also like the default Kubuntu look & feel/theme. I find it very appealing and aesthetically pleasing, simple and yet functional. Just keep it like is, it’s a good default and it works.
“In the past I’ve been a GNOME user but I’m starting to settle for KDE and Kubuntu. I see much more progress and innovation in that environment. Ubuntu releasing Kubuntu was their best decision yet, in my opinion.”
Flamewar anyone? Where’s Linus when you need him…?
Is how overhyped Ubuntu is.
And no, it is not a real contender on the desktop. It could be. But it won’t be until they drop some of their Debian “it’s not “free” enough so we aren’t going to install it and are going to make you fish around for plugins instead” policies.
Sorry, but the average desktop user isn’t going to understand when they try to play the most popular audio file format in the default Ubuntu media player and it comes back and it comes back with “unknown file format”. All they are going to do is say “This sucks. Windows knows how to play my mp3s with no problems at all.”
Things just have to work for the average end user. It can’t require installing plugins, etc.
Edited 2005-12-15 21:04
Sure, they can drop that, but then they’d have to charge for it.
And Windows doesn’t know how to play crap. You still have to install software to do it.
> Sure, they can drop that, but then they’d have
> to charge for it.
No they wouldn’t. You can’t use the mp3 decoder for free. This is a philosophical position. Not a practical one.
> And Windows doesn’t know how to play crap.
> You still have to install software to do it.
That’s news to me. Windows Media Player comes with WinXP by default, and out of the box knows how to play almost every file format I want to play. (Except quicktime.)
No they wouldn’t. You can’t use the mp3 decoder for free.
That it true, but you can’t DISTRIBUTE the MP3 decoder for free which is what Ubuntu would be doing if it included it by default. Way back when I wrote a good disclaimer to explain why Ubuntu does not include this stuff- its not all ideological reasons:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70646
That’s news to me. Windows Media Player comes with WinXP by default, and out of the box knows how to play almost every file format I want to play
Aw…it does not play Quicktime files? I need those a lot. What do you have to do? Next, next, next a dozen times to get them? That sucks compared to Ubuntu and Automatix which gets every codec I need out of the box:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=66563
“That it true, but you can’t DISTRIBUTE the MP3 decoder for free which is what Ubuntu would be doing if it included it by default.”
I have a hard time buying this. because if it is true, it means there are a great many Linux distributions out there that are violating copyright. Quite a few come with xmms bundled on the distro CD for example, and it supports mp3 out of the box.
“That sucks compared to Ubuntu and Automatix which gets every codec I need out of the box:”
The average user can figure out what “Plugin needed. Shall I download it?” means. But they can’t figure out what “Unknown file format” means, with absolutely no additional information telling them what they need to do to correct the problem. And that is exactly what Rhythmbox does in Ubuntu. “Unknown file format”, leaving the user totally clueless as to how to correct the problem.
“I have a hard time buying this. because if it is true, it means there are a great many Linux distributions out there that are violating copyright. Quite a few come with xmms bundled on the distro CD for example, and it supports mp3 out of the box.”
Does this remind anyone else of the O’Reilly Factor skit on SNL? BTW, patents, not copyrights.
Quite a few come with xmms bundled on the distro CD for example, and it supports mp3 out of the box.
Unless compiled to not support mp3, like RedHat did (at least in the release before the Fedora split).
Mandriva, fo instance, has a disclamer in their license:
Warning: Free Software may not necessarily be patent free, and some Free
Software included may be covered by patents in your country. For example, the
MP3 decoders included may require a licence for further usage (see
http://www.mp3licensing.com for more details). If you are unsure if a patent
may be applicable to you, check your local laws.
The reason, I think, that they can distribute xmms with mp3 support is that french (and EU) laws don’t acknowledge software patents yet.
Peder
And DivX!
No they wouldn’t. You can’t use the mp3 decoder for free. This is a philosophical position. Not a practical one.
Wrong, this is _not_ a philosophical issue it’s a legal position. To implement MP3(legally) they would have to pay royalties to the MP3 patent holders. They can’t(legally) use libdvdcss2 to play cpmercial DVDs because of the DMCA.
That’s news to me. Windows Media Player comes with WinXP by default, and out of the box knows how to play almost every file format I want to play. (Except quicktime.)
Unless you have Windows Media Center Edition, WMP can’t play Real, Ogg/Vorvis, Xvid and DivX among others
“Wrong, this is _not_ a philosophical issue it’s a legal position. To implement MP3(legally) they would have to pay royalties to the MP3 patent holders. They can’t(legally) use libdvdcss2 to play cpmercial DVDs because of the DMCA.”
So I guess xmms wants to get sued then. And so do many Linux vendors that ship with xmms included on the distro CD.
“Unless you have Windows Media Center Edition, WMP can’t play Real, Ogg/Vorvis, Xvid and DivX among others”
Real: Automatic plugin download
Ogg: Yeah right. Cause anyone actually uses it.
Xvid and DivX: Again, not very popular. But when needed, is quickly resolved with a Google search.
“So I guess xmms wants to get sued then. And so do many Linux vendors that ship with xmms included on the distro CD.”
Actually xmms does not equal having mp3 playback. Fedora used to ship and to the best of my knowledge still ships with xmms on the CDs but without the libmpg123.so mp3 playback plugin for xmms.
“Xvid and DivX: Again, not very popular. But when needed, is quickly resolved with a Google search.
I guess it depends on your definition of not very popular. Download.com currently has the DivX play bundle at over forty million downloads, and that’s just download.com.
Also to add to the original point I don’t think that Windows ships with Quick Time support built in, though some vendors may preinstall Quick Time as well as installing Windows. The point however remains that Windows by itself doesn’t have full multi-media support either. I’m not saying I wouldn’t love to see all Linux distro’s do everything with regards to multi-media right out of the box, but the fact is that right now you have to work to get it to do everything pretty much regardless of the operating system you use.
Finally, while this is definitely an ‘apples and oranges’ thing, there are more sides to the debate than just the multi-media support. For example Windows does not come with an entire office suite, you have to buy MS Office seperately, or download OpenOffice.org (or buy StarOffice, or Word Perfect etc.) Try weighing office suite or no office suite against mp3 support, or no mp3 support out of the box. You can’t because, like I said, it’s apples and oranges, but out of the box functionality is not a landslide win for Windows either.
I’m not saying I wouldn’t love to see all Linux distro’s do everything with regards to multi-media right out of the box, but the fact is that right now you have to work to get it to do everything pretty much regardless of the operating system you use.
I’d have to point out that the same thing is true of OS X as well. Quicktime supports jack-shit out of box. The first thing I had to do to make it usable was install VLC
Actually, as an example, neither the Fedora nor the OpenSUSE distributions have MP3 support by default. So, much like in this situation, support must be added by downloading a package/plugin.
So I guess xmms wants to get sued then. And so do many Linux vendors that ship with xmms included on the distro CD.
Real: Automatic plugin download
Ogg: Yeah right. Cause anyone actually uses it.
Xvid and DivX: Again, not very popular. But when needed, is quickly resolved with a Google search.
Who uses Real? And what do you mean DivX is not popular? Are you out of your mind?
> And what do you mean DivX is not popular? Are you
> out of your mind?
It’s not. The overwhelming majority of video content on the net is in either Quicktime format, or WMV format. DivX is a very minor player compared to those two.
Uh, no. You’re talking about official content found on Web sites. If you go down the shadier alleys of the Internet, where people trade copied Movies and TV Shows, you’ll see that DivX is in fact a very popular format.
P.S. most DivX movies have .avi as their file extension.
“If you go down the shadier alleys of the Internet, where people trade copied Movies and TV Shows, you’ll see that DivX is in fact a very popular format.”
Oh silly me. I forgot. That’s right. You free software / GPL zealot types don’t think you have to pay for anything. So you are always going to the “shadier alleys” and downloading stuff illegally if you can’t get it legally for free.. “If it’s legally available free, great. If not, it’s free anyway cause I will just pirate it.”
Silly me. I should have remembered.
Uh, no. Despite your barrage of ad hominem attacks, the vast majority of Free Software enthusiasts do NOT in fact pirate software, music or movies. Similarly, I don’t need to perform illegal acts to know they exist, and to be aware of the file formats used.
I have a large collection of DVDs in my living room, all paid for (I like nice boxes), and not a single pirated one. So you can take your baseless accusations and stuff them where the sun don’t shine. I also don’t pirate software, especially since I work for a company that produces proprietary software products (video games).
Nice try changing the debate. I think it’s pretty clear to everyone here that you were proved wrong and resorted to personal attacks in order to divert attention from that fact.
“Nice try changing the debate. I think it’s pretty clear to everyone here that you were proved wrong”
Nope. I have not been proven wrong.
mp3 is infinnately more popular than ogg. And most online video content that people actually watch is not in divX.
And even when it is, download, click install. That’s all you have to do for divX.
Installing mplayer plugin and getting support for common file formats should be that simple.
Nope. I have not been proven wrong.
Yes you have. You’ve even done it yourself. You say mp3 is the most popular format, yet few if any of the main Online Music Services provide music in that format, which goes to show that popularity isn’t solely the factor of what’s available through official means. This goes against your first argument that said that DivX wasn’t popular because most official video found on the Internet is available in Quicktime and WMV formats (thereby ignoring non-official content).
And even when it is, download, click install. That’s all you have to do for divX.
Installing mplayer plugin and getting support for common file formats should be that simple.
With Automatix it is. And even if you don’t use it, just add PLF as a repository and then mark the mplayer-plugin and win32-codecs checkboxes in Synaptic and press Install. You’ll get DivX, but also Quicktime, Windows Media and a few others all in one go. Fast and easy.
“Yes you have. You’ve even done it yourself. You say mp3 is the most popular format, yet few if any of the main Online Music Services provide music in that format”
Emusic and mp3.com are easily more popular than all of the sites you listed from Wikipedia put together. And both of them are in mp3 format.
“And even if you don’t use it, just add PLF as a repository and then mark the mplayer-plugin and win32-codecs checkboxes in Synaptic and press Install. You’ll get DivX, but also Quicktime, Windows Media and a few others all in one go. Fast and easy.”
Sure… Assuming a user has any clue what the PLF repository is, or that the mplayer-plugin is what they need, or what the win32-codecs do.
Now lets see what needs to be done in WinXP. Visit Web site that needs plugin. Get popup box “I need a plugin. Should I install it?” “Yes” done.
Sorry, but that is a lot easier than Ubuntu.
Ubuntu doesn’t
The problem is that you believe that users and idiots, and should be hand-held through everything they do. I believe that users are in fact quite smart, and will figure out a lot of things.
Also, if someone is going to try to find out how to do something in Ubuntu, he’ll quickly end up in the Ubuntu Forums even if he starts to look in Google.
You were proven wrong on why Ubuntu doesn’t provide mp3 support by default (i.e. for legal reasons), on the fact that “no one distributes Ogg files”, and on the fact that DivX is “not a popular format”. It think it’s time for you to admit it.
“The problem is that you believe that users and idiots”
No. I don’t. But I do believe that users don’t want to learn any more than they have to. Most users just want to do their work and have fun. They don’t want to have to learn anything about the underlying technology.
“I believe that users are in fact quite smart”
Then you have probably never worked in software tech support. I worked in software tech support for my first year–something I believe all programmers should be required to do.
Ogg is actually gaining quite a lot of popularity.
DivX not very popular? I beg to differ.
> Ogg is actually gaining quite a lot of popularity.
Sure… That’s why not a single online music service distributes music in Ogg format.
Edited 2005-12-15 23:45
Popularity is not solely determined by which music services use a given file format. The most popular music service, iTunes, doesn’t use mp3s, and yet the latter is still the most popular music file format around.
To me, when file formats start to be supported by hardware music players, it’s a sign that their popularity is growing. The fact that there are a few Ogg music players means that the popularity of the format is growing (however slowly).
“To me, when file formats start to be supported by hardware music players, it’s a sign that their popularity is growing”
Please go on one of your “shady hangouts” like GNUtella, and tell me what percentage of files are on ogg format. I bet you will find that the overwhelming majority is mp3. If I said ogg had 1/10th of 1% I would probably be exagerating.
I didn’t say that Ogg was as popular as mp3, just that it’s gaining in popularity.
But hey, at least with this post you clearly admit that your previous argument (considering only “official” sources for movie files) was crap.
Thanks for proving me right. Too bad, though, I kinda like a challenge when I’m arguing on OSNews. You obviously don’t measure up.
That’s why not a single online music service distributes music in Ogg format.
According to Wikipedia, the following Online Music Stores provide songs in Ogg/Vorbis format (among others):
*AllOfMP3.com
*Independent Music Online
*Magnatune
*Mindawn
I’ll also add that neither Rhapsody, Sony Connect, BuyMusic, the new Napster or Audible.com offer songs in the mp3 format…and yet it’s still the most popular one!
> According to Wikipedia
Wikipedia also ran a false and slanderous article for over 4 months on John Siegenthaler that accused him of being accused and involved in crimes he had absolutlely nothing to do with.
Some of those sites (none of which I have heard of) might offer ogg files. But citing Wikipedia only makes you look foolish. It is a 100% unreliable source.
The fact that there were errors on the Siegenthaler page is irrelevant. As such, it does not invalidate information found on other pages. For the record, I am not citing Wikipedia as an authoritative source, but rather indicating that I found this info on Wikipedia (there’s a difference).
(BTW, while this is off-topic, the fact that Siegenthaler didn’t himself correct the error means that him, like you, seem not to understand what Wikipedia is about.)
Now, if you can show me that the music services I listed either don’t exist or do not offer Ogg files, then you’d be right to bring it up. As it stands, you have been proven wrong and are just trying to divert the attention away from that fact.
Hey, Wikipedia also states that the first U.S. president was George Washington…I guess you won’t believe it either, right? After all, it is 100% unreliable!
Wikipedia, for all its faults, is an amazing web site. You’re welcome not to use it, but to say that it is 100% unreliable is most clearly an undefensible argument.
Just admit that you were wrong, and we can all move on with our lives.
“(BTW, while this is off-topic, the fact that Siegenthaler didn’t himself correct the error means that him, like you, seem not to understand what Wikipedia is about.)”
I personally am a fairly well known author myself. But I don’t spend my days scouring the net looking up what people have written about me. I simply don’t have the time. Neither does Siegenthaler.
And yes, I do understand what Wikipedia is about. And I have corrected more than my fair share of false information on Wikipedia in subjects that are my areas of scientific speciality. I try to keep it as accurate as possible on subject I am knowledable about. But calling Wikipedia an “encyclopedia”, which it does on its main page, is misleading, and false. It’s not. Encyclopedias are written by experts in the field of the articles, have their information cited, and are peer reviewed by other experts in their field. Wikipedia is written largely by people who don’t know what they are talking about, and even when they do get it right, it tends to be mostly plagiarism content that was ripped from other people’s Web sites, without giving any credit to the person who the content originally came from.
Innacurate information, uncited sources, and plagiarized content is quite common on Wikipedia.
I personally am a fairly well known author myself. But I don’t spend my days scouring the net looking up what people have written about me. I simply don’t have the time. Neither does Siegenthaler.
He obviously had time to look it up, since he complained about it. Ergo, he could have corrected it.
See, this is what I mean when I say you’re not much of a challenge. You don’t even realize that the case you present contains its own counter-argument.
I personally am a fairly well known author myself.
Yeah, right. And I’m Stephen Hawking. No, really.
Claims to authority on web forums are useless, you know this, I know this, so let’s not go that way, m’kay?
As far as the content on Wikipedia not always being accurate, that is something that they readily acknowledge. Not only that, but articles that are disputed are more often than not marked as such.
Is Wikipedia a good alternative to a “real” encyclopedia? Of course not. However, it’s still useful. For example, it was useful to me in proving you wrong (when you claimed that “not a single music service provides music in Ogg format”…)
“He obviously had time to look it up, since he complained about it. Ergo, he could have corrected it”
Irrelavent. By the time he realized it was there, it had been up for over 4 months. And irreperable damage to his reputation had already been done by the many people who had read that article in those four months… Sorry, but you can’t just reverse damage by suddenly correcting false information that has been published for four months. You are naieve if you think you can.
“See, this is what I mean when I say you’re not much of a challenge. You don’t even realize that the case you present contains its own counter-argument.”
No. It doesn’t. You seem to have this deluded idea that if he had simply corrected the false information, it would have magically undone all the damage that had already been done to his reputation during those four months. No, it wouldn’t have.
“Claims to authority on web forums are useless, you know this, I know this, so let’s not go that way m’kay?”
Whether you believe me or not is not the issue. The issue is the point I am trying to make. I can run my name through google and come back with a lot of hits about me because of books and articles I have published. I don’t have time to visit all of those links and see if people are saying false or slanderous things about me. And if someone was, on a reasonably prominant site, and I didn’t find it until four months later, simply correcting the information would not undo the damage that had already been done.
Whether you believe my claim or not, does not invalidate my point that neither I (nor he) have the time to constantly be checking all the Internet references about us that might potentially say something false about us.
Of course not. However, it’s still useful.
Useful, yes. But trying to pass it off as an encyclopedia is false and misleading.
“For example, it was useful to me in proving you wrong”
And also proving just how misleading Wikipedia is, and how you had to spin it a little bit.
Example: The vast majority of AllofMP3.com’s files are mp3. not ogg. And Independant Music Online is moving to mp3.
I certainly use ogg… I’m actaully in the process of converting all my mp3 collection into ogg files…
Ogg: Yeah right. Cause anyone actually uses it.
Xvid and DivX: Again, not very popular. But when needed, is quickly resolved with a Google search.
You’re on drugs! Ogg is very popular as is DivX and Xvid, Xvid is even surpasing DivX in usage these days!
Some people have NFI!
“Ogg is very popular as is DivX and Xvid”
No, ogg is not very popular. mp3 is by far more common.
And DivX is not very popular either, except among people who illegally download movies off the Internet. But the vast majority of online video content is in either Quicktime or WMV format.
And no, it is not a real contender on the desktop. It could be. But it won’t be until they drop some of their Debian “it’s not “free” enough so we aren’t going to install it and are going to make you fish around for plugins instead” policies.
It has nothing to do with “it’s not free enough”, and everything to do with “we don’t want to get sued for it”. Ubuntu is based in the US, and a US company owns the MP3 patent. Canonical doesn’t want to get sued. It’s as simple as that.
Note, the “average user” shouldn’t have any problem installing plugins. Windows Media Player doesn’t support DivX by default (which is pretty much the most popular video file format), yet somehow Windows users manage to watch videos…
> Note, the “average user” shouldn’t have any
> problem installing plugins.
Except for that little problem I already pointed out that Rhythmbox (which is a suck ass player anyway), doesn’t give even the slightest clue what is wrong. Just “Unsupported file format.”
Actually, Ubuntu is supposedly based on the Island of Man, which makes it… Irish? And Shuttleworth is, of course, from South Africa…
I have no idea where Ubuntu/Canonical is really from but none of this changes the fact that they can’t provide libdvdcss or mp3 playing software by default, to countries where it’s illegal (like the US).
I think I saw the position summed up as “We could pay the one-time fees to Fraunhoffer, or we could sponsor Linux development for a year”.
Linspire, I believe, has shelled out the money to provide its users with legal MP3 and DVD software, but that cost is factored in to the cost of the Click-n-Run repository.
Yup, in Windows we simply double click to install something, including codecs.
This is year 2005, well I hope , you don’t have to re-compile something to install anything in linux, unlike lets say … last year.
The average user installs Office, cd burning software and printer software on windows, they certainly can install codecs on ubuntu
“The average user installs Office, cd burning software and printer software on windows, they certainly can install codecs on ubuntu”
Quick… Without looking it up… Tell me how to install the mplayer plugin in Firefox or Mozilla and have it support quicktime and WMV.
On Ubuntu? Run Automatix, as a kind gentleman has already pointed out earlier in this thread.
Ubuntu forums, man. Everything you need to know is in there.
“Ubuntu forums, man. Everything you need to know is in there.”
Users don’t want to read forums. They want to click, install, done.
“Users don’t want to read forums. They want to click, install, done.”
I don’t want to be a comp geek any more than I want to be an auto mechanic.
I’ve been using Winblows a long freaking time, and installing software in that nightmare has only recently been as easy as click, install, done.
It’s more like pay a bucket load of money, insert multiple CDs, click a bunch of times, and hope your new installation of something doesn’t boff something completely unrelated.
As a non-geek, non-auto mechanic, I also don’t want to pay for tech support in order to answer simple questions. Tough stuff, fine. But the obvious errors should be easy to fix.
Surprise. Ubuntu actually not only installs, but upgrades with a click, install/upgrade, done.
Using Automatix on Ubuntu is by far the simplest thing I’ve ever installed to get a more complete system within minutes after a fresh install.
I never thought I’d say it, but Winblows doesn’t come close.
Who are you to pretend to know what users want?
When I was an “exclusive” Windows user, I checked things up on forums all the time. There’s no better place to find out about things than the Internet. Even finding out about DivX requires a bit of searching.
The Ubuntu forums are a great place to learn about Linux, and to communicate with other members of the community. It’s an invaluable source of support, and unlike Windows forums, it’s pretty much all in one place.
Look, if Linux is too complicated for you, don’t use it. And while you’re at it, stop trolling Linux threads as well…
> Who are you to pretend to know what users want?
A programmer who’s business it is to make sure that users can easily use the software I write.
“The Ubuntu forums are a great place to learn about Linux, and to communicate with other members of the community.”
This implies that the average desktop computer user cares about the community. They don’t. They want to balance their checkbook, send IM and email, browse internet porn, and play games. That’s all they want to do to. and they don’t want to learn anything more than what they have to in order to do it. The average desktop computer user is not at all interested in “the community”.
“Look, if Linux is too complicated for you, don’t use it.”
Actually, I do use Linux. Just not Ubuntu. I just get sick of all the “Oh look at Ubuntu. It’s so great. It’s so ready to take on Windows and become the desktop OS for the average user.”
No, it isn’t. And no, it isn’t even that great. So shut up about it already and get off the fad bandwagon.
A programmer who’s business it is to make sure that users can easily use the software I write.
Programmers are notoriously bad in judging users’ needs and habits. I know, I design video games and work with them all day long.
This implies that the average desktop computer user cares about the community. They don’t.
Again, you make this assertion without any evidence to back it up. There is in fact a strong indication that people who choose to use Linux quickly learn to care about their new community.
Stop claiming to know what users want. You don’t.
Actually, I do use Linux. Just not Ubuntu.
I use Ubuntu and Mandriva. I like both. Ubuntu does have undeniable strengths, however. It’s a well-balanced desktop, it comes on one CD and it has an amazing community (like the Gentoo community). Is it for everyone? Of course not. No single OS is for everyone.
So shut up about it already and get off the fad bandwagon.
I’ll shut up when you admit that you were wrong.
“Programmers are notoriously bad in judging users’ needs and habits. I know, I design video games and work with them all day long.”
Yes, they are. But typically they *overestimate* the capabilities of the average user. Not undestimate them. This is why there is so much of the “Linux is ready for the desktop, and anyone who can’t figure it out is just too stupid to run a computer” mentality in the Linux community.
As I said, I worked in software tech support my first year before I started actually working as a programmer. I think every aspiring programmer should be required to do that. Because I learned alot about the kinds of problems real users have in actually using software. I think most programmers (and most Linux geeks for that matter, programmers or not) are really pretty clueless when it comes to understanding what is easy, and what is hard for the average user.
“Again, you make this assertion without any evidence to back it up. There is in fact a strong indication that people who choose to use Linux quickly learn to care about their new community. ”
A: Like I said, go work in software tech support for a year and see if you think the average user still cares.
B: The average person who chooses to learn Linux is not the average user. Hence why Linux has only about 1.4% marketshare on the desktop. I said “the average desktop user”. And the average desktop user is not a Linux user.
“I use Ubuntu and Mandriva. I like both.”
I use Slackware and Gentoo. I am very happy with both of them. But the average user would hate both of them. But I don’t try to prtend that they, or any other Linux distro, is ready for the average user’s desktop when clearly none of them are. And as long as Linux developers are content to think that they are, they never will be. Because the kinds of things that really need to get done before they will be will never actually get done.
As I said, the average programmer and Linux geek *overestimates* the capabilities of the average desktop user. Not underestimates. This is my opinion after 20 years in this field, and after having worked software tech suppport before moving on to being a programmer myself.
The average user needs help with installing software all the time, just because i can’t tell you off the top of my head how to install codecs doesn’t mean I have not done it, and It only took 4 steps. This is no different from a windows user having to find and download new drivers for his video card, or printer drivers, or install codecs so he can watch dvds
Edited 2005-12-16 03:51
“i can’t tell you off the top of my head how to install codecs doesn’t mean I have not doen it, and It only took 4 steps.”
I never said you haven’t done it. But you did prove my point. You can’t remember how to do it off the top of your head. And that is understandable. Because in Linux, it is a multistep process. But worse, the steps are not standarized. Depending on what it is you are trying to install, the steps may be different (where you have to place .so files, and so on)
In Windows, the steps are always the same. Download, double click, done. And it is no different than installing any other software.
except you have to find the software you want to install, and download it, and working in the ISP tech support field as I do, it is a very rare user that can remember where they download anything too.
I find similar problems with different solutions for both platforms, and when you compare Debians apt system or deb files with RPM or Windows Installer, I’ll take apt anyday
“except you have to find the software you want to install, and download it, and working in the ISP tech support field as I do, it is a very rare user that can remember where they download anything too.”
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In Windows, virtually all browser plugin installation is automated for example. All you have to do is click “Ok” or something when you are told that additional software is needed to view the content.
That only works sometimes in Linux. Some plugins can be automatically installed. But others cannot. And sometimes that require manually placing files in various locations and such.
Ubuntu does not come with the “unfrees”, thats true, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t taken care of. Look at this script – it will give you all the codecs and more too – all without you needing to have any knowlege:
http://robotgeek.org/blog/easybreezy/
I think using this is far easier than installing XVid, DivX and a bunch of other stuff to get Windows playing everything.
./nalle.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There you go, I can threadcrap in ubuntu threads just as easily as ubuntu users can threadcrap in every non-ubuntu thread anywhere.
It looks as if Dapper Drake is coming on as a nice incremental release. Probably a lot of work under the bonnet but like any distro they are tied to changes upstream for the headline stuff. All K/Ubuntu need to do now is produce a cast-iron server distro that’s more advanced than their present shot at it and Debian will be left with not much more than a role as a surly-staffed DIY warehouse where others come to get the parts they’ll use to assemble their own distros. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer bunch of guys.
One thing to take issue with, though: the description in the header that “Ubuntu has taken the Linux community by storm”. It has taken a community of sorts by storm, but the Linux community?? Judging by the lame comments on this thread, Ubuntu may have taken a community of argumentative baboons by storm. Hmmn, perhaps they should look at that. It’s the Linux market they really need to appeal to.
“Judging by the lame comments on this thread, Ubuntu may have taken a community of argumentative baboons by storm”
A lot of this comes from one simple thing: The Ubuntu fad is getting damn old. I’m sorry, but it is. Practically every other day on OSNews there is another article about “Oh, isn’t Ubuntu great?”. Literally, practically every other day. Have you looked at the number of “Ubuntu is the greatest thing since sliced bread” articles that have been running on OSNews lately?
Sorry, it’s just getting damn old. And Ubuntu is nothing but yet another Linux distribution trying to take over the desktop. It doesn’t do anything particularily interesting that others with similar goals haven’t done in the past. Caldera, Mandrake, etc. There is nothing special about Ubuntu at all. And hype and constant “oh it’s so great” articles running practically every other day are getting damn old.
You’re right, it doesn’t have anything most of the current distros already have, but I have tried FC 2 and 3, freeBSD and suse, and I find that in most cases, ubuntu does it with a bit more polish. It is not perfect, but it is closer than anything I have found, and I firmly believe in choice, so please, instead of choosing to complain, why not write some articles about your favorite ditribution, or maybe choose not to read articles that you don’t care for.
I’m pleased to see so many improvements in this release. Most of them was released just days/hours ago… And made in the bleeding Edge’s Ubuntu…
(good descriptions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight2 )
I’m talking about smaller stuff, like the new splash screen for the installer, as well big changes, like to boot time reduction. In the end, the user experience is getting a lot better on each release, and that’s the most important thing for any OS/Distro targeting normal desktop use.
I hope they make easier somehow to the home user perform some standard tasks, like listening their music and watching DVDs; and proper configuring mouse buttons so it’ll be easier for the new user drop the barriers that still exist (even with some great tools like EasyUbuntu and others).
…to see if you admitted you were wrong. Don’t take advantage of me leaving to take potshots, now! 🙂
You people suck. How about this. Go flame somewhere else. I used to come to OSnews because there would be more intelligent posts than the group on Slashdot…. now the tables have turned, and I see a new flame war everytime I come here.
Can we please move past the Childish bickering, and have some intelligent discussion. Yes, the flight CD for the next major version of a popular linux distribution belongs here, right along side all of the Windows Vista is this that and the other thing articles. It is OS News, and with certain specific topics, it might seem like a flood about one thing, but otherwise it could just be a trickle of nothing in particular. You choose….just quityerbitchin!
But calling Wikipedia an “encyclopedia”, which it does on its main page, is misleading, and false. It’s not. Encyclopedias are written by experts in the field of the articles, have their information cited, and are peer reviewed by other experts in their field.
You might be interested in this (linked on Slashdot):
“Nature magazine recently conducted a head-to-head competition between Wikipedia and Britannica, having experts compare 42 science-related articles. The result was that Wikipedia had about 4 errors per article, while Britannica had about 3. However, a pair of endevouring Wikipedians dug a little deeper and discovered that the Wikipedia articles in the sample were, on average, 2.6 times longer than Britannica’s – meaning Wikipedia has an error rate far less than Britannica’s.”
http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051212/full/438900a.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm
“You might be interested in this (linked on Slashdot):”
I did see that. And it sounds about right. On just the topics I am an expert in, I corrected an average of four errors per article. Some of them serious.
But I would also have two other comments on that. The errors in Britannica tend to be minor. Errors on Wikipedia are often much more serious. I also don’t like that fact that plagiarism is rampant on Wikipedia.
They also should implement some kind of registration system to edit articles because downright vandalism is also a serious problem.
Sorry, but you can’t just reverse damage by suddenly correcting false information that has been published for four months.
Sure you can, and this is what Wikipedia users have done, by adding more info about the controversy. And since the “scandal” generated more press than the misleading information that was previous on Wikipedia, one could easily argue that more people now believe that Seigenthaler had nothing to do with the Kennedy association that before the controversy erupted.
And also proving just how misleading Wikipedia is, and how you had to spin it a little bit.
Example: The vast majority of AllofMP3.com’s files are mp3. not ogg. And Independant Music Online is moving to mp3.
You’re the one trying to spin it. You claimed that “not one music service provided Ogg files.” I showed you that you were wrong. Far from admitting that you were, you’re now trying to present my counter-argument as spin.
You were wrong. End of story. Admit it.
“Sure you can, and this is what Wikipedia users have done, by adding more info about the controversy.”
No. you can’t. The people who already read the article probably aren’t goin go t come back and read it again. You are seriously kidding yourself if you think you can undo the damage by just correcting false information that has been floating around for months, and which lots of people have already read.
And fine, there are a few services where you can get some ogg files. But the overwhelming majority of files available for legal (and illegal) download, are mp3. Not ogg.
Once again, you blatantly contradict yourself in the same post…
“The problem is that you believe that users and idiots”
No. I don’t.
[…]
“I believe that users are in fact quite smart”
Then you have probably never worked in software tech support.
Well, what is it? Are they idiots or not?
I worked in software tech support for my first year–something I believe all programmers should be required to do.
In cognitive psychology there is something known as “sample bias”. I think this is a textbook example of it: you worked in Tech Support, therefore people called you when they had problems. In other words, the users that solved their own problems didn’t call you. Ergo, you only talked to users who had trouble figuring things out by themselves. This has obviously skewed your perceptions of the average user’s ability towards the “clueless” end of the spectrum.
As for me, I’ve done family/friends tech support. I found out that when you walk people through procedures, they’ll learn them. Simple as that.
Most users just want to do their work and have fun. They don’t want to have to learn anything about the underlying technology.
Adding a repository or following simple instructions on the Ubuntu forums to install Automatix isn’t “learning about the underlying technology.” You’re arguing in bad faith here.
> Well, what is it? Are they idiots or not?
Some of them are. But for the vast majority, it is just that they don’t understand. And it is not their job to become computer experts.
“Ergo, you only talked to users who had trouble figuring things out by themselves. This has obviously skewed your perceptions of the average user’s ability towards the “clueless” end of the spectrum.”
No. That’s not the main point. The point is that when users do call you, you notice patterns. You notice that for example “I understand issue A, and it seems simple to me, but apparently it is not simple to many users, since I get a lot of calls about issue A.” This really doesn’t have anything to do with bias. But it does have a lot to do with noticing trends about what works and what doesn’t. If 50% of your calls are because of issue A, then issue A is something that needs to be looked as as far as why users seem to be having so much trouble grasping it.
“As for me, I’ve done family/friends tech support. I found out that when you walk people through procedures, they’ll learn them. Simple as that.”
A lot of users have neither the desire nor the patience to learn those procedures–especially in a corporate environment.
“Adding a repository or following simple instructions on the Ubuntu forums to install Automatix isn’t “learning about the underlying technology.” You’re arguing in bad faith here.”
No. I am not… Please tell me where the user learns about Automatix? Certainly not from a nice popup “I need a plugin. Can I install it?”
Like it or not. Windows is easier for the average user. Because it prompts them for what it needs. Linux–even “user friendly” distros like Ubuntu, typically don’t. They just fail to work correctly, and then expect the user to figure out what it needs on their own.
Oh, and I won’t go into how much fun I had getting Ubuntu to support the widescreen display on my laptop. Lets just say the average user would have had to learn a lot more about what’s under the hood than I’m sure they would have wanted to know to get that to work.
I said “the average desktop user”. And the average desktop user is not a Linux user.
The “average desktop user” doesn’t exist. You can’t make averages with users’ specific needs.
Linux is ready for some desktops, and not for others. Claiming anything else is disingenuous.
BTW, Ubuntu and Mandriva are much more newbie-friendly than Slackware and Gentoo. I think your views on the matter are quite biased due to your choice of distro…
“Linux is ready for some desktops, and not for others. Claiming anything else is disingenuous.”
Sure. It is ready for some. But the ones it is ready for hasn’t really changed much in the last several years. Primarily, the list still looks like this:
– Scientists and engineers
– Hobbiests and hackers
– Specialized terminals that only do one thing
“BTW, Ubuntu and Mandriva are much more newbie-friendly than Slackware and Gentoo.”
I’ve used Ubuntu in the past. I personally grew dissatisifed with it rather quickly because I’d rather have things not installed at all by default, than have a lot of stuff installed by default that is only half-assed functional out of the box and then I have to figure out how to make it work fully. I’d rather just start from scratch. At least then I immediately know why something doesn’t work rather than having to dig around to try to find out.
Yup, in Windows we simply double click to install something, including codecs.
You mean, hear about a program, do a search, go to website, click on the download link, select where you download, wait for the download, navigate to where you downloaded the installer, double-click on it, click on Agree (you may have to scroll down the entire agreement – ideally you should read it to understand your legal responsibilities), click on Next, Next, Next (etc…), the program installs, close the installer window.
You might do this for a single program, or you may install/update more than one program at once. If you do the latter, you will have to do the steps above for each program.
On my Kubuntu laptop (similar procedure for other distros): hear about a program(s), start synaptic (either through the K menu, the CLI or a panel shortcut if – like me – you try out a lot of programs), double-click on the program name(s), click on Apply, confirm, wait for the download(s), wait for the installs, quit synaptic.
The Linux way is a little easier and shorter for a single program, but for multiple programs the difference is even more dramatic.
This is year 2005, well I hope , you don’t have to re-compile something to install anything in linux, unlike lets say … last year.
Are you really saying that to install anything in Linux, you have to re-compile something? You do realize how ridiculous such a statement is? If you want to spread FUD, make it believable.
If you’re trying to obscure some obscure program, you may have to compile, yes. But if you need such a program, compiling isn’t usually an issue to you…Chances are, if an app is worth anything, it’s in the repositories (or there are graphical installers available for them!)
It’s not as if compiling was rocket science, anyway. Learning how to compile something in, say, Ubuntu is quite easy – again, the Ubuntu online documentation and forums are your friends.
Another good thing about the Ubuntu forums is that if you need an app that isn’t in the repositories, you can always ask for it…if enough people join in, you may generate enough interest to have it included in the distro!
Of course, if you’re a developer like Simba, it’s trivial to make rpms or debs and share them with the community (another good reason to be part of it), or to use one of the standalone graphical installer packages (or make their own – it can’t be that hard with something like Qt designer). After all, in the Windows world it’s also the developer’s responsibility to package the software (except that in the Windows world you have to pay for the Installshield wizard if you use it).
But hey, if you don’t like Linux, just don’t use it. No need to whine about it on web sites.
“You mean, hear about a program, do a search, go to website, click on the download link, select where you download, wait for the download, navigate to where you downloaded the installer…”
Sometimes it is much simpler in Windows than that. For example, plugins are often installed by simply saying “Yes” to a prompt, and that’s all you have to do. Plugin installation in Linux is usually not nearly that simple.
“It’s not as if compiling was rocket science, anyway. Learning how to compile something in, say, Ubuntu is quite easy – again, the Ubuntu online documentation and forums are your friends.”
heh… Yeah right… You expect the average user to be able to do that? Lets see… To start with, development tools aren’t even installed in Ubuntu… So after the user has finally figured out that they need to apt-get buildessential or whatever it is, then they download the source code they want to compile… Hmm.. ./configure, make, make install… Seems simple enough.. So they do it. And they watch obscure messages fly by on their screen for the next 30 minutes… And then…
make[2] All recursive error: Unresolved constant FOO_BAR_BLAH_MONKEY
Stop
Oops… So much for that being simple… Now they get to learn about things like header files, and libraries.
Don’t kid yourself. If it isn’t available in Synaptic. The average user won’t be able to install it, and will very possibly trash their system trying to.
Edited 2005-12-16 03:52
The issue is the point I am trying to make. I can run my name through google and come back with a lot of hits about me because of books and articles I have published. I don’t have time to visit all of those links and see if people are saying false or slanderous things about me.
Are you implying that your name coming up on Google is similar to having your own entry in Wikipedia? My name comes up when I do a Google search too, but I wouldn’t compare this to having a Wikipedia entry. When the latter happens, I’ll know I’ll have achieved some notoriety…
Funny that you’d base your response on such a tenuous comparison.
“When the latter happens, I’ll know I’ll have achieved some notoriety…”
Why? Anyone can write a Wikipedia entry. I could write one about myself. Someone who read one my articles or books and really liked it could write one about me. Or worse, someone who read one my articles or books and hated it could write one about me in a targetted attempt to trash my reputation. Having an entry in Wikipedia does not necessarily mean you achieved much notoriety. It could simply mean someone likes you… Or that someone hates you.
But I would also have two other comments on that. The errors in Britannica tend to be minor. Errors on Wikipedia are often much more serious.
I guess you didn’t read the articles. You should:
“Only eight serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles reviewed, four from each encyclopaedia. But reviewers also found many factual errors, omissions or misleading statements: 162 and 123 in Wikipedia and Britannica, respectively.”
Mind you, the Wikipedia people readily admit that they are not “Brittanica-quality”. That is their goal.
I also don’t like that fact that plagiarism is rampant on Wikipedia.
Do you have some numbers on that? To be “rampant”, you must have some idea of the size of the problem. I’m genuinely curious about this, I haven’t heard too much about this. In any case, that’s irrelevant to the validity of the entries.
They also should implement some kind of registration system to edit articles because downright vandalism is also a serious problem.
I’d be fine with required registration (after all I don’t like anonymous posting). Of course, it’s always a matter between freedom of speech and the greatly varying maturity level of Internet posters. When you allow for freedom of speech, you’ve got to expect the troll. Thankfully, such anti-social behavior is not the norm. I wouldn’t say it’s a “serious” problem in the sense that I haven’t personally witnessed it in about four months of using Wikipedia every day. I’d like to see some stats on this as well, if you happen to have them…
“Only eight serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles reviewed, four from each encyclopaedia.”
Four articles is not a valid sample size for a valid conclusion. It’s not a large enough sample size to even get valid p-values for regression testing.
“Do you have some numbers on that? To be “rampant”, you must have some idea of the size of the problem. I’m genuinely curious about this, I haven’t heard too much about this.”
I can’t give you hard numbers cause I have not actually attempted to compile data on it. What I am basing that statement on though, is just the number of times I have found stuff in Wikipedia that has been directly cut and paste from another Web site, word for word. And often find entire paragraphs ripped from books without giving any credit to the book it came from, or the original author.
Granted, I probably am pickier than the average reader because of my science background. And Uncited information is one of my pet peeves. And I’m sure you won’t disagree with the statement that virtually nothing in Wikipedia is cited as to the source that the info came from.
“I wouldn’t say it’s a “serious” problem in the sense that I haven’t personally witnessed it in about four months of using Wikipedia every day. I’d like to see some stats on this as well, if you happen to have them…”
It depends on what you are reading of course. Less popular articles are not the targets of vandalism as often as more popular ones. But popular entries tend to get vandalized at least once a week. Sometimes by something blatently obvious (such as deleting all the text, which gets caught and fixed very quickly), but sometimes something more subtle (modifying one sentance, or putting something obscene or absurd in some part of the article).
Try looking at the history for some popular entries though. And you will see that vandalism is quite common.
heh… Yeah right… You expect the average user to be able to do that?
No I don’t, because the “average user” won’t need to. He’ll find what he needs in the repositories, or he’ll likely use a graphical installer if it’s a commercial app. That’s what I said in the post.
The rest of your argument is lost on the fact that you’re responding to something I didn’t say.
That’s called a strawman argument, btw.
[Hypothetical catastrophic compilation scenario deleted]
Okay, now can you give us a real example, please? Because otherwise technically making things up. Thanks.
> That’s called a strawman argument, btw.
What if said average user wants said obscure application? Are you going to tell them “compiling is not rocket science”? To them it is.
Four articles is not a valid sample size for a valid conclusion. It’s not a large enough sample size to even get valid p-values for regression testing.
Can you please RTFA? There were 42 entries tested, not four. They found four errors in each encyclopedia.
I can’t give you hard numbers cause I have not actually attempted to compile data on it.
So we have to take your word for it…
What I am basing that statement on though, is just the number of times I have found stuff in Wikipedia that has been directly cut and paste from another Web site, word for word. And often find entire paragraphs ripped from books without giving any credit to the book it came from, or the original author.
That’s bad. Did you notify the copyright holders?
Hey, if it’s happened a number of times, perhaps you can point me a to a concrete example. After all, since all edits are kept in history, even if someone changed it I could still look it up.
Granted, I probably am pickier than the average reader because of my science background. And Uncited information is one of my pet peeves. And I’m sure you won’t disagree with the statement that virtually nothing in Wikipedia is cited as to the source that the info came from.
Virtually nothing? That’s quite extreme. Again, without some analysis of your data, this is only conjecture. Surely you realize that, having a scientific background…
In any case, that is irrelevant to the accuracy of Wikipedia information, which was the topic in this already off-topic conversation.
Try looking at the history for some popular entries though. And you will see that vandalism is quite common.
I will. Any suggestions? I’m sure you could point one out really quickly, since you see so many.
“That’s bad. Did you notify the copyright holders?”
No. But I often do add citations for where the information came from if falls under fair use. If it doesn’t fall under fair use, I sometimes remove the text and place a note in the history saying it was removed because it was plagiarized from such and such a source.
“Virtually nothing? That’s quite extreme. Again, without some analysis of your data, this is only conjecture.”
It’s not conjecture at all. Pick any Wikipedia article at random and find out how much of the information in the article is actually cited. More often than not, the answer is none.
“I will. Any suggestions? I’m sure you could point one out really quickly, since you see so many.”
Try the article on lions (as in big cats). It’s vandalized on a fairly regular basis. You might also note that there is only one citation in the entire article. All the rest of the info in the article is completely uncited.
No it is not rocket science.
./configure && make && make install
Not too hard.
> No it is not rocket science.
> ./configure && make && make install
> Not too hard.
You are ignoring the fact that when you drop to the realm of source code, there is no dependancy resolution or checking. And that depending on what you are trying to build it may have quite a few dependancies. And some of those dependancies have dependancies of their own. Gnome, for example, has about 45 dependancies.
And this is when you start running into fun make[2] stop errors because of unresolved function calls during the link, unresolved constants, and other fun problems.
If it needs something I get it and do the same thing.
It’s not a big problem.
What do you do when you want something that is not in the Debian (or other) repositories? Or there isn’t an rpm?
Don’t get me wrong, I think that the apt-get system is kick ass. For the new user it is a blessing.
There is a preformed opinion among new users that Linux is harder to learn than Windows.
I say “not true”. It is just different than Windows.
It has “more stuff” to fiddle with, that is what makes it fun.
I have walked people through Windows installs on a fresh unpartitioned disk over the telephone. I have also walked them through a Slackware install on a fresh unpartioned disk over the phone.
The Slackware installs are easier and faster.
I think that if you came from a Linux background and someone threw a windows install at you you would be just as flustered as the other way around.
As far as problems are concerned – I consider them learning experiences.
Personally I would like to see a central source repository that everyone could freely use and contribute to than a package repository.
I guess I just like to do it myself.
What if said average user wants said obscure application?
Well, if he doesn’t want to compile it, then that obscure application shall remained uninstalled. If he can’t use Linux of this, that’s too bad. Linux isn’t ready for HIS desktop. But since we’re talking about the exception, not the rule, it doesn’t have a significant impact.
Are you going to tell them “compiling is not rocket science”? To them it is.
Not if you have the precise instructions to do it. Enter Ubuntu forums. They’ll tell you what packages to install to have a system that can compile. And if the obscure program is installable, chances are someone did it already and wrote about it.
Or course, every once in a blue moon, a non-technical Linux user will try to install an obscure/unmaintained package for which there are no instructions, or that doesn’t compile cleanly against the base system. Tough. Sometimes when I try to install old/obscure Windows shareware on a modern MS system it doesn’t work either…
As I said, Linux may not be ready for all desktops, but it’s ready for a lot of them. If you want to make up unlikely scenarios to support your agenda, be my guest. I figure I’ve lost enough time pointing out the factual errors and logical fallacies in your posts.
“Not if you have the precise instructions to do it. Enter Ubuntu forums.”
I have personally found the Ubuntu forums to be next to useless when it comes to getting help resolving dependany problems and such that cause source code builds to fail.
A typical exchange looks something like this:
I have problem a. It says this.
You need to install b.
I installed b, but it it still is giving me the same error.
You need to do ldconfig and so on.
Ok. I did that… But now I am getting this error.
…And then the answers just stop coming. Sometimes the exchanges go on longer. But often times, the thread dies without the problem ever having been resolved.
Edited 2005-12-16 05:27
You might also note that there is only one citation in the entire article. All the rest of the info in the article is completely uncited.
Perhaps because it is original content? If you’re an expert on lions, then you’re probably able to come up with a lot of information without having to refer to sources.
Again, this is very off-topic. You were still proved wrong, and refused to admit it. That speaks volumes about your credibility.
“Perhaps because it is original content? If you’re an expert on lions, then you’re probably able to come up with a lot of information without having to refer to sources.”
It doesn’t matter. You are still expected to cite things you state as fact unless it is considered to be extremely common knowledge. I’m sorry if I expect higher academic standards out of something touting itself as an encyclopedia. (and yes, they do call themselves that on their front page).
Basically, the majority of articles on Wikipedia would be an automatic F if submitted as even a 101 level college paper because of failure to cite information. And it you think citations are just for students, think again. Read any article in Science, or another journal of that type. Everything is cited so that information can be indepednantly verified.
“You were still proved wrong, and refused to admit it”
Actually, I did admit I was wrong. There are a few sites that host ogg. But as I said, that doesn’t change the fact that ogg is still an extreme minority compared to mp3.
Edited 2005-12-16 05:34
Gnome, for example, has about 45 dependancies.
I believe that Gnome is in the Ubuntu repositories. 🙂
Seriously, you use a lot of hypothetical examples, but haven’t actually given one concrete example yet. The example you give of the Ubuntu forums (hey, I thought you didn’t use Ubuntu), far from being a “typical” example, is actualy a worst-case scenario. This is all you’ve done so far.
I’ve had enough of this FUD.
> I’ve had enough of this FUD.
Yep. I know how it goes with you FOSS zealot types. Whine and pout and stomp your feet and say “I don’t agree with it… So it is just FUD…”
I’m sorry to see you can’t stand the truth. And the fact that so many others are like you is why Linux will never be a truly competitive operating system on the desktop. Because the Linux community won’t own up to the fact that some aspects of Linux quite simply, suck. And some are just too plain hard for the average user to handle. and because they won’t own up to it, it will never get fixed.
Edited 2005-12-16 05:41
Why? Anyone can write a Wikipedia entry.
Actually, from now on only registered users will be able to create a new entry.
I could write one about myself. Someone who read one my articles or books and really liked it could write one about me.
You need to qualify to a certain number of criteria in order for your entry not to be removed. You can’t just write an entry about some random Joe and think it’ll remain in Wikipedia, because it won’t. Check out the guidelines for creating new entries about persons.
Can we put this off-topic discussion to rest, please?
“Actually, from now on only registered users will be able to create a new entry.”
Yes. This was recently changed because of all the bad press they got over the false and slanderous article.
“Check out the guidelines for creating new entries about persons. ”
I have read them. And I know what the guidelines are.
Why? Anyone can write a Wikipedia entry.
Actually, from now on only registered users will be able to create a new entry.
I could write one about myself. Someone who read one my articles or books and really liked it could write one about me.
You need to qualify to a certain number of criteria in order for your entry not to be removed. You can’t just write an entry about some random Joe and think it’ll remain in Wikipedia, because it won’t. Check out the guidelines for creating new entries about persons.
Can we put this off-topic discussion to rest, please?
Yep. I know how it goes with you FOSS zealot types. Whine and pout and stomp your feet and say “I don’t agree with it… So it is just FUD…”
Ad hominem attacks again, heh? And you wonder why I say you have no credibility.
I’m not calling what you say FUD because I don’t agree with it, I call it FUD because that’s what it is. Put it simply, you take an unlikely scenario, present its worst-case outcome and then try to pretend that it reprensents a likely scenario with a usual outcome. That is FUD.
I’m sorry to see you can’t stand the truth.
I’m sorry, but I have no problems with the truth. It’s you that keeps misrepresenting it with factual errors and logical fallacies.
Let me repeat: YOU have a problem with the truth, which is you you spread FUD. No one’s fooled, however. Certainly not I, nor anyone still reading this thread.
> Ad hominem attacks again, heh?
Not at all. Perhaps you have heard the phrase about a few rotten apples ruining the whole bunch? Well, it definately applies to the Linux community, especially when you look at the three most visible characters:
Linus Torvalds: Incapable of having a civilized discussion. Prone to childish outbursts and temper-tantrums where he curses and swears in all caps.
Richard Stallman: A troll. Perhaps best remembered for posting his “Why you should not use TCL” rant on comp.lang.tcl
Eric Raymond: Thinks the best way to convince people he is right is to talk down to them and insult them.
And then we have the militant FOSS crowd “It’s not GPL. So it sucks and isn’t open source.”
Sorry. This all tends you make the entire community look like a bunch of whining children, especially when the three most visible frontmen for Linux can’t behave like adults.
> I call it FUD because that’s what it is.
No, it is not FUD at all. Threads on lots of Linux help lists routinely end without the problem ever having been resolved.
“I’m sorry, but I have no problems with the truth. It’s you that keeps misrepresenting it with factual errors and logical fallacies.”
I haven’t made one argument that is a logical fallacy. It sounds like, much like Linus Torvalds, you don’t actually know what a logical fallacy is.
> YOU have a problem with the truth.
I don’t spread FUD. I simply say things you don’t like to hear, so you call it FUD.
Edited 2005-12-16 06:14
Yes. This was recently changed because of all the bad press they got over the false and slanderous article.
…which shows they are willing to correct the situation.
To tell you the truth, the fact that only one article in over 800,000 (in english alone) cause such a controversy tells me that the level of quality is rather high (as indicated by the Nature study).
I have read them. And I know what the guidelines are.
Then you know that a minimum amount of notoriety is required to have entries about persons remain in Wikipedia.
I don’t give two shits in a sauna if Linux is ever what you would call “a truly competitive operating system on the desktop”.
Because the facts are that it is a Superior operating system on the desktop.
I use Windows every day at work along with Autocad. I use Slackware at home.
It is a joy to come home and fire up the machine and use something that I configured the way I want it, not the way someone else has decided I need it.
I can do more work at home on my slower machine using linux than I can at work. Why? Because it works better.
No, not everyone can do that, because they haven’t taken the time to learn to.
If you can’t just “click the mouse” it can’t be done?
That seems to be the standard operating procedure around the office.
If you take the time to learn it you too will agree with me.
And I don’t see FOSS as a religion as some do.
I just use what works.
> Because the facts are that it is a Superior
> operating system on the desktop.
That it is not a fact at all. It is purely subjective opinion on your part.
And the fact that is that for the average user, it is NOT a superior operating system.
> If you take the time to learn it you too will
> agree with me.
I have taken the time to learn it. I have used it since the pre-Slackware days. And I do not agree with you. It works for me. But I think the average user is better off with Windows.
> And I don’t see FOSS as a religion as some do.
Unfortunately, the militant FOSS religious crowd has ruined the community to a great extent. I don’t enjoy the Linux community nearly as much as I did back in the days when Slackware was just getting started (and I know a lot of other old hats who feel the same way). There is too much politics, militarism, anti-Microsoft, anti-Sun, anti-anything that is not GPL bullshit in it now. There is also a lot of childish immaturity in the community these days (most likely because a lot of the community is made up of children these days. High school geek wannabes who think Linux makes them cooler than their Windows friends, and suddenly think they are 3llt because they successfully installed Linux, and this suddenly gives them a license to be egomaniacs who can act like jerks to newbies or anyone they percieve as being a lesser geek then they are).
For the most part, I just use it to get my work done these days. And I avoid the community for the most part, as do a lot of other people I know who used to enjoy it. We have moved onto other projects that don’t come with all the militant, childish, and political bullshit that the Linux community does these days.
Edited 2005-12-16 06:40
This is my opinion after 20 years in this field, and after having worked software tech suppport before moving on to being a programmer myself.
And you aren’t tired of badmouthing Linux distributions yet? Sigh…
Unfortunately, the militant FOSS religious crowd has ruined the community to a great extent. I don’t enjoy the Linux community nearly as much as I did back in the days when Slackware was just getting started (and I know a lot of other old hats who feel the same way). There is too much politics, militarism, anti-Microsoft, anti-Sun, anti-anything that is not GPL bullshit in it now. There is also a lot of childish immaturity in the community these days (most likely because a lot of the community is made up of children these days. High school geek wannabes who think Linux makes them cooler than their Windows friends, and suddenly think they are 3llt because they successfully installed Linux, and this suddenly gives them a license to be egomaniacs who can act like jerks to newbies or anyone they percieve as being a lesser geek then they are).
You’re either a very sad longtime Linux user who is angry because he feels inferior to a lot of other people in the community, or a very occasional Linux users that likes to tell fairy tales. I suspect the latter…
“You’re either a very sad longtime Linux user who is angry because he feels inferior to a lot of other people in the community, or a very occasional Linux users that likes to tell fairy tales. I suspect the latter…”
You should stick to something you know and abandon your attempts at armchair psychology. Since you are way off the mark, Mr. Freud
You are simply denying reality. Don’t believe me? Log onto Undernet and spend a few minutes in #linux, or #linuxhelp. The vast majority of people in there are total 100% assholes. Especially the channel operators. If you are a newbie and you ask a question in either channel, there’s a pretty good chance you will get banned.
And look at the recent comments about Gnome from Linus Torvalds. Even Torvalds can’t behave like an adult.
And don’t you dare try to deny the fact that it is loaded with militant GPL zealots these days who would just rather see all commercial software companies go bankrupt.
You are completely and totally denying reality if you don’t realize that the Linux community is full of politics, militarism, and childish behavior these days.
Edited 2005-12-16 18:29
I thought this was an article about Ubuntu?
Fact 1: At present (and for the last 12 months), the Ubuntu distribution is the most popular on DistroWatch: http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity
Fact 2: Based on the same information cited in “Fact 1”, its popularity is not waining. It is in fact increasing. So if it is a fad, it is one that has not yet passed. And if its popularity increase does not level off or begin to fall, then the tendancy indicates that it will continue to increase in popularity.
Fact 3: Politics exist in every area of society. It is the art concerned with guiding or influencing policy. And with a society, its objectives are the common objectives of its members. Politics influence decisions that group gravitates towards. Stating that their exists “too much politics” driving a large entity is a moot point. That is how decisions are made.
Fact 4: Any person starting down a path for the first time is a “newbie”. Every new thing I do that I have never done before, is new to me. If I choose to start using an operating system that I have never used before, I will encounter problems. I will overcome them however, because that is the nature of the animal. Try. Fail. Try again. Repeat. Succeed. It is incorrect to assume that an average user does not have the ambition to succeed. It is an inherent want.
Opinion 1: No one is stupid or incapable. Only treated as so by others. Everyone wants to learn. And yes, when you just want to get something done, it is nice to not have to muck about with whatever is allowing you to be productive.
Opinion 2: And as far as I am concerned, no operating system is ready for the desktop. What a silly ambition this is to strive for. What you do want however is to get eveyone to make sure that your operating system just works. You can’t compare market penetration of Linux versus Windows because not many people install Windows. I buy a computer. Windows is pre-installed. Not only that, but the computer manufacturer has ensured that it just works. Drivers are already installed. A certain minimum of software is there. I am sure that if a manufaturer decided to pre-install Linux on the computer I buy, that it would “just work”. And most likely, they would have a handy 800 number for me too call if I had any problems.
No pesky forums for me, that’s too complicated!
“Politics exist in every area of society. It is the art concerned with guiding or influencing policy.”
They didn’t exist back in the pre-Slackware / early Slackware days. Back then, we just had a great community project we enjoyed working on. We didn’t care what Microsoft was doing, or whether anyone but ourselves actually used Linux or not. All we cared about was having fun, and learning.
And by the way, it doesn’t exist nearly as much in the FreeBSD community either. To a large extent, the FreeBSD community has remained concentrated on simply having fun, learning, and producing a very good operating system. It’s hasn’t decended into all the politics and militarism that Linux has.
Please don’t try to tell me the community is the same way today. It isn’t. Today it’s loaded with Anti-Sun, Anti-Microsoft militants, anti-anything that is not GPL militants, commercial interests who aren’t in it for the community, but are in it for their own financial self-interests and those of their shareholders, etc., and people who can’t seem to behave maturely.
“It is incorrect to assume that an average user does not have the ambition to succeed. It is an inherent want.”
It’s an inherent want assuming the user is interested in the task they are trying to succeed at. And that’s where your argument fails. You seem to think the average user has any interest in computers at all outside of the fact that they let them balance their checkbook, browse Internet porn, do IM, send email, and play games. And the fact is they don’t. The average user doesn’t care. The average user has no ambition to succeed at becoming an expert on computers. They have other ambitions. To succeed at becoming a good accountant, a good doctor, a good business person, or any number of other professions. They do not have the desire to succeed at becoming computer experts because they have no interest in the field.
> No pesky forums for me, that’s too complicated!
The amount of time spent searching a forum for an answer, is time that the user could have spent doing something more productive. And if they don’t search first, and just ask a newbie like question that has already been answered, they will get chastised and ridiculed. Don’t try to pretend they won’t.
Edited 2005-12-16 18:37
“And if they don’t search first, and just ask a newbie like question that has already been answered, they will get chastised and ridiculed. Don’t try to pretend they won’t.”
You seem to have mistaken my comment for sarcasm. I was in fact agreeing with you. I do realize that the average user does not generally hit the forums. That is why big companies have help desks.
Also, there was no inference as to the state of the community. I agree that it has changed drastically. But that is the monster that we now have to deal with. A victim of success garnered I suppose. A smaller community such as that of FreeBSD, still affords its members an individual voice. It is easier to be heard.
Interest is of course a main point that drives a need or want to succeed. I don’t care that I suck at golf. It does not interest me to be any good at it. But if I am interested in playing games for example, should I not be interested in knowing how to use the tool that lets me play the games?
“You seem to have mistaken my comment for sarcasm.”
My apologizes.
“But if I am interested in playing games for example, should I not be interested in knowing how to use the tool that lets me play the games?”
Only if you want to be. But you shouldn’t have to be. Just as you shouldn’t have to know anything about how your car’s driveshaft connects to the wheels in order to be able to successfully drive it in a straight line down the road. You don’t have to have any interest in cars at all to want to be able to drive because it is useful from getting you to point A to point B. And as such, you don’t have to have any interest in computers at all to be able to want to use them for their entertainment value or whatever.
And this is the holy grail of OS / UI design. We want to design computers that can understand conversational English (or Japanese, or German, etc.) commands. We want to design computers that have artificial intelligence, and are capable of deducing what we mean rather than simply doing a literal translation of what we said. We want to design computers that can prompt users when they need something, and know how and where to get it without the user having to to tell it. All the user has to do is give the computer permission to do it.
Of course, only the last point has been achieved with any real degree of success so far. The rest of them are a ways off yet. But the holy grail of UI design is to design a UI that users intuitively know how to use, because it is something have already been doing before they even touched a computer.
“But that is the monster that we now have to deal with.”
Well, we don’t have to deal with it. We can choose to remove ourselves from the community. Or move on to other projects. A lot of FreeBSD hackers I know used to be Linux hackers. And if you ask them why they switched to FreeBSD, they will give you the exact reasons I stated. They got fed up with the politics and militaristic bagage that has been attached to Linux.
Edited 2005-12-16 19:40
“It is incorrect to assume that an average user does not have the ambition to succeed. It is an inherent want.”
Btw, after thinking about that a bit. I don’t even think the statement is valid on a general scale. There is no shortage of people in the world who would rather do the bare minimum that they have to in order to get by. In fact, I suspect that is the rule. The person who has the ambition to succeed is the exception rather than the rule.
I have downloaded Kubuntu Dapper live cd this morning, very nice, but …
Please, (K)Ubuntu developpers leave you planet and come back to the earth. How is it possible, that, end 2005, it is not possible to select the keyboard layout? Did you even think you should include this? I know it is a beta, but how can I test it? submit bug reports if my Swiss French keyboard is not recognized. This is just amazing for me.
Do not blame me if I’m sticking on Windows, Microsoft is not doing such basic mistake.
I find my UK keyboard works correctly.
And all I had to do was choose United Kingdom as my location, the time zone is also right.
How on earth are the four sets of questions you get asked by Windows meant to be an improvement on that?
I’m saying this as a die hard Gentoo user. If there is any Linux distro out there, that has the potential to someday unite all Linux users out there, then it’s most likely Ubuntu. And if that actually happen, it would be something wonderful for the entire Linux community. This might be considered as wishful thinking, but I also think Linux will never go mainstream as long as the majority of all Linux users are devided by a zillion different distributions. Which might be already a turn-off for most users of a mainstream OS, even if they were interested at first. I also believe that the acceptance of Ubuntu is already immense in all existing Linux communities, even Gentoo. Well, at least I am watching Ubuntus progress with great interest, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Well, I disagree. And personally, when it comes to advanced Linux users, I know a lot of them that really don’t like Ubuntu at all. My personal experience was that I really liked Ubuntu when I started using it. But the more I used it, the more I disliked it. And I eventually got rid of it.
I would consider myself as an advanced user, too, and that’s why I am on Gentoo. However, the majority of computer users in general are casual users. They want to use proprietary software, like the hottest games, or even something like Adobe Photoshop. Just imagine the support effort a company would have to undertake, if they were to support like 10 major Linux distros. This surely is reason enough for some companies not even to think about offering commercial software for Linux. A unified Linux platform would also speed up progress and development a lot. Just because of combining resources and development efforts. I’m also convinced that a lot of people don’t want that. For what reason I don’t know.
“This surely is reason enough for some companies not even to think about offering commercial software for Linux.”
Well, there are two issues here:
1. Even with all that distros combined, there is not enough marketshare on the desktop for companies to be able to cover their costs in producing a Linux version.
2. Much of the Linux community would not buy it even if they did produce it because part of the reason they use Linux is the whole free software thing.
So ultimately, it’s simply not cost effective for companies to do Linux ports of their desktop applications.
The solution does exist, but unfortunately, even people who should know better still spread false rumors about it. The solution is Java. Contrary to popular rumor, Java Swing applications can be very fast these days, and many Swing L&Fs look much nicer than Gtk or Qt themes.
I routinely run 4 or 5 Java desktop applications at the same time with absolutely no slowdown and no performance problems. If you didn’t know they were Java apps, you would think they were native. Yes, Java has gotten very usuable on the desktop with recent versions of the JRE. And to a large extent, this would eliminate the porting problem altogether.
And if they don’t search first, and just ask a newbie like question that has already been answered, they will get chastised and ridiculed. Don’t try to pretend they won’t.
Actually, on the Ubuntu forums, they won’t.
It’s funny how you first said that in the beginning you had a great community project without politics, but when someone points out that this sense of community still exist in such places as the Ubuntu forums, you quickly dismiss it?
More contradictions on your part. You basically have zero credibility left, give it up.
“It’s funny how you first said that in the beginning you had a great community project without politics, but when someone points out that this sense of community still exist in such places as the Ubuntu forums, you quickly dismiss it?”
I did not contracdict myself at all. I’m talking about the community at a whole. And my objections to where has gone (militarism, politics, commercial interests) are ethical ones. And I choose not to volunteer my time to contribute to it anymore. I only have so much time I can spend on volunteer tasks. And I have better ways to spend it then by donating it to a community which I have ethical objections to because of what it has become.
But the holy grail of UI design is to design a UI that users intuitively know how to use, because it is something have already been doing before they even touched a computer.
And like the Holy Grail it may never be found.
Like the rest of the real world, I’ll settle for a system that requires some learning, but provides productivity gains after you do. Like learning how to type, you know?
> And like the Holy Grail it may never be found.
It may not. But for most users needs, Windows comes closer to it than Linux does.
This is beta software. The release CDs hav no problem with non-english keyboards (such as French Canadian on my Kubuntu laptop).
That said, I believe it is possible to specify your keyboard even on this beta release. You probably missed it.
I would like to know what I missed. I booted the live cd. With the F2 key, I can select the language, with the F3 key I can select other options. Where can I select my Swiss French keyboard layout? Konsole is not usable. Any help is welcome.
I agree with you Simba.
I have tried and continue to try all of the “new” distro’s as they come out.
I always come back to Slackware. It suits me.
IMHO There are really only four types of distros out there.
1. Debian and derivatives (Ubuntu, Mepis, and about 80 others).
2.RedHat and derivatives (Suse, Mandrake, etc).
3.Slackware and derivatives (Austrumi, Buffalo, etc).
4.Source based (Gentoo, LSF, etc).
I know this is a little oversimplified but it is a general grouping.
The precompiled distros, which comprise the first three on the list have been around a long time.
Of the Debian derivatives I like Mepis the best. It survived the longest on my hard drive and came closest to being the default OS. Debian was just a bit dated for stable and a bit anal about replacing libraries.
Of the RPM varieties, I gave up on them after trying Suse 10.0. Every time you reconfigured it Yast would unconfigure it, And Fedora is always in Beta.
Ah, but SLack is always rock solid and relatively current.
I use SLackware 10.2 with a 2.6 Kernel patched for Win4Lin (with Windows 98se For running AutoCad) recompiled with Athlon Optimizations and KDE 3.5 which is a beautiful desktop system.
All in all life is good.
These are my OPINIONS. Mine.
I have found something that works well for me.
That is why I can say that Linux is a Superior Desktop OS.
For me it is.
Windows or BSD might be for you.
The very use of the word ‘superior’ is subjective.
Nothing to argue about.
First, Richard Stallman is not a member of the Linux community. He uses GNU/Hurd.
Linus Torvalds: Incapable of having a civilized discussion. Prone to childish outbursts and temper-tantrums where he curses and swears in all caps.
You’re referring to the Gnome discussion recently, Linux thought he was in a private discussion.
No, it is not FUD at all. Threads on lots of Linux help lists routinely end without the problem ever having been resolved.
Even more end up with the problem being resolved. It is therefore FUD to pretend that the worst-case scenario you present is the norm.
I haven’t made one argument that is a logical fallacy. It sounds like, much like Linus Torvalds, you don’t actually know what a logical fallacy is.
Oh yes you have. You have used Ad Hominem attacks and Strawman arguments, among others. Those are logical fallacies.
I don’t spread FUD. I simply say things you don’t like to hear, so you call it FUD.
No, you present doomsday scenarios as if they were the norm, and that is clearly FUD.
Anyway, you’ve already admitted that you made false claims without verifying their validity, so your credibility is pretty much at zero right now.
Edited 2005-12-17 05:05
“First, Richard Stallman is not a member of the Linux community. He uses GNU/Hurd.”
No he doesn’t. Even Stallman has admitted that Hurd is dead.
“Linus thought he was in a private discussion.”
Yeah sure he did. He knew perfectly well that the mailing list in question is publically archived.
“Oh yes you have. You have used Ad Hominem ”
Have you ever taken a class on logic? Ad hominem attacks are not logical fallacies. And I have not used any strawman arguments except in your mind.
And the fact the only thing you can manage in each of your posts is to attack my credibility and say it is at zero, because of a technicality about file formats available on common music sites (and none of the ones that ogg are common music sites anyway) only proves don’t have any credibility of your own, so you feel the need to try to say others don’t have any either. Oh, and by the way, pointing it out in each and every response you make to me is very childish and immature.
Edited 2005-12-17 07:33
Log onto Undernet and spend a few minutes in #linux, or #linuxhelp. The vast majority of people in there are total 100% assholes.
Even if that’s true, who on earth logs onto Undernet and seeks for help on Linux? Try Freenode and spend a few minutes in for instance #ubuntu and you will be presented with the exact opposite.
And don’t you dare try to deny the fact that it is loaded with militant GPL zealots these days who would just rather see all commercial software companies go bankrupt.
Well, what can I tell ya? I do deny it.
You are completely and totally denying reality if you don’t realize that the Linux community is full of politics, militarism, and childish behavior these days.
No, simply because I myself don’t confuse reality with the twisted world you’re living in. Militarism? Whatever dood… The only thing I do completely and totally is wasting my time with you.
“No, simply because I myself don’t confuse reality with the twisted world you’re living in. Militarism? Whatever dood…”
Yes. Militarism. People who worship the GPL and think it is the only “real open source” license, etc. People who can’t stand the fact that others have a right to license their software how they want to, and so have fits about the fact that “Sun won’t GPL Java”, for example. People who have absolutely no respect for the concept of intellectual property, and want to pass legislation that denies others the right to protect their intellectual property and R&D investments.
Yes, it is loaded with miltarism these days. People who worship the GPL almost as if it were a religion, and who think all other licenses are inferior, etc.
I only have so much time I can spend on volunteer tasks. And I have better ways to spend it then by donating it to a community which I have ethical objections to because of what it has become.
Like flooding this comment section?
> Like flooding this comment section?
Uh huh… And let me know when the Linux zealots have stopped flooding articles about Solaris or Java with FUD how badly either one sucks, or FUD about they will always suck until they are open source, or some other bullshit along those lines. Of course, articles about Windows they really can’t resist to flood with FUD.
Edited 2005-12-17 18:03
That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it, but I disagree.
For most users, Linux can do things just as easy as Windows. It is for the exceptions (i.e. obscure programs very few people use, power-users used to their way of doing things) that the transition might be harder.
For most users needs, Linux is as easy/easier to use than Windows.
“For most users, Linux can do things just as easy as Windows. It is for the exceptions (i.e. obscure programs very few people use, power-users used to their way of doing things) that the transition might be harder.”
I will agree that it is easy to use, as long as the user doesn’t want to change anything, or use USB hotplug devices on a laptop for example. Once you start going down that road, Linux leaves a lot to be desired.
As I said in another thread, when I am in a business meeting for example, I want to be able to get a USB key from a friend, plug it in, have it correctly identified and mounted automatically. My latest attempt at that with Linux simply didn’t work. Plugged in the key, and nothing happened. Linux still leaves a fair amount to be desired when it comes to PnP support, and automatically detecting hotpluggable devices and things along those lines.
From Merriam-Webster Online:
“Militarism
1 a : predominance of the military class or its ideals b : exaltation of military virtues and ideals
2 : a policy of aggressive military preparedness”
There’s nothing militaristic about the Linux community. I think you mean “militant”, which isn’t the same thing at all. Words have meaning, learn about them.
(And this coming from someone for whom English is a second language…)
As far as politics go, there’s a political dimension to everything we do. You can hide your head in the sand about this simple truth, that won’t change a thing.
And what’s wrong with commercial interests? Since when is that a bad thing?
What has the Ubuntu community become? A place where newbies can get help quickly and politely, a place where people share ideas on how to make their distro better, a place where users and developers come together.
Meanwhile, you can keep spreading FUD and using incorrect terms. You’re not fooling anyone.
I’m not going to shit-pick the meaning of words with you. It was perfectly clear what I meant given the context. And if you have been reduced to shit-picking word meanings, then it basically means you have gotten really desperate.
“As far as politics go, there’s a political dimension to everything we do.”
No, there does not have to be a political dimension to it. And for a long time there wasn’t. There wasn’t a political dimension to it until the zealots came along and decided that it wasn’t enough that we had a fun community project that we all liked working on, but that we had to become Microsoft haters, and Sun haters, and try to destroy “immoral businesses who won’t give us their source code”. That’s when it became political.
“And what’s wrong with commercial interests? Since when is that a bad thing?”
It’s a bad thing because it turns Linux from a socialist community into a capitalist venture. And that’s what I don’t like. I’m a socialist. But for socialism to really work, everyone has to benefit equally from the community. And ever since commercial interests like Red Hat came along, it doesn’t work that way anymore. Because now you have a large corporate company with shareholders that is making a great deal of money off the efforts of the community–many of members of the community whom are not seeing a dime for their efforts. And Red Hat is largely it’s own mini-monopoly within the Linux community. If you or I wanted to try to start up a commercial Linux distribution similar to Red Hat, we would almost certainly fail because of Red Hat’s recognition,
pre-load agreements with hardware vendors, etc.
“Meanwhile, you can keep spreading FUD and using incorrect terms.”
Like I said, you’ve been reduced to shit-picking the meaning of the world militaristic vs. militarism. And the only one not fooling anyone is you. It was clearly obvious what I meant given the context. And if you have to resort to shit-picking a single world who’s meaning was obvious, you really are desperate for an argument.
Edited 2005-12-17 22:44
Even Stallman has admitted that Hurd is dead.
Please provide a link.
Yeah sure he did. He knew perfectly well that the mailing list in question is publically archived.
So it’s your word against Linus’? I’m sorry, but you’ve made it clear that we can’t take your word on anything.
Have you ever taken a class on logic? Ad hominem attacks are not logical fallacies.
Yes it is. It is an attack on the other person’s character instead of a logical counter-argument.
Ad Hominem attacks, for example, are listed in these two web sites on logical fallacies:
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/attack.htm
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html
At least you’re not trying to deny the fact that you did use argumentum ad hominem against me, lowering your own credibility.
And I have not used any strawman arguments except in your mind.
Actually, you did, by saying that FOSS advocates thought that they are entitled to pirate stuff that isn’t “free” before presenting your case against it. That’s a textbook strawman argument.
And the fact the only thing you can manage in each of your posts is to attack my credibility and say it is at zero, because of a technicality about file formats available on common music sites (and none of the ones that ogg are common music sites anyway) only proves don’t have any credibility of your own, so you feel the need to try to say others don’t have any either. Oh, and by the way, pointing it out in each and every response you make to me is very childish and immature.
Hey, if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. You made a series of false and misleading statements, I called you on it, now you’re trying to weasel your way out of it with more ad hominem attacks (somehow pointing out that you’re wrong makes me childish and immature?) and more logical fallacies (me saying that you have no credibility means I have no credibility?).
Seeing you dig your own hole that way is kinda sad, really.
I’ll try running the Dapper liveCD and see if I can help you out.
You know, it may just be a bug – after all, this is a beta release…
So if someone does something bad, that makes it okay for you to do the same? You DO know there’s no logical defense for this behavior, right?
I don’t flood Solaris or Java articles, nor do I spread FUD in Windows threads.
Theine’s point still stand, though: you have no time to contribute to the Linux community anymore, but apparently you have time aplenty to badmouth it…yeah, that makes sense!
I will agree that it is easy to use, as long as the user doesn’t want to change anything, or use USB hotplug devices on a laptop for example. Once you start going down that road, Linux leaves a lot to be desired.
My Kunbuntu laptop (Breezy) has no problem recognizing hotpluggable USB devices. Wether it’s USB keys (1.0 or 2.0), an iPod Shuffle or USB cameras, every single device I’ve tried so far (about a dozen) had mounted automagically, with an icon appearing on my desktop and a prompt asking me what to do with the device (i.e. open a browser window, open Digikam for cameras or open amaroK for the iPod).
USB PnP support has improved dramatically over the past two years. I suggest you give the latest version of (K)Ubuntu a spin, as it seems most of your criticism is outdated…
BTW, I even got my EyeToy camera (a webcam-like device for the PlayStation2) to work on my Kubuntu laptop, though this did require about half an hour of fiddling around…
“USB PnP support has improved dramatically over the past two years. I suggest you give the latest version of (K)Ubuntu a spin, as it seems most of your criticism is outdated…”
Ok… I don’t have any CD-R’s available right now, but I will try to get some tomorrow. And I will give it a try. I’ll try out the latest Kubuntu and let you know if I have any problems, and what kind I have.
But on one condition. I promise to be honest about what works and what doesn’t, if you promise not to accuse me of just spreading FUD.
Edited 2005-12-17 22:48
I’m not going to shit-pick the meaning of words with you. It was perfectly clear what I meant given the context. And if you have been reduced to shit-picking word meanings, then it basically means you have gotten really desperate.
No, it only means that I insist on using correct words. Using incorrect words increases the chance of miscommunication and misinformation.
While we’re on the subject, “shit-picking” isn’t a word. “Nitpicking” is. 🙂
It’s a bad thing because it turns Linux from a socialist community into a capitalist venture. And that’s what I don’t like. I’m a socialist.
So am I. But I lean more towards Trotskyism, which allows for the existence of private property and private entrepreneurship (on a limited scale). However, that’s irrelevant. Linux hasn’t lost its community spirit because some large corporations (such as IBM) have decided to embrace it.
That said, if you don’t like RedHat, you must positively hate Microsoft!
And Red Hat is largely it’s own mini-monopoly within the Linux community. If you or I wanted to try to start up a commercial Linux distribution similar to Red Hat, we would almost certainly fail because of Red Hat’s recognition, pre-load agreements with hardware vendors, etc.
I don’t agree that RedHat is a mini-monopoly. There are quite a few other successful commercial Linux distributions, among others Novell/SuSE and Mandriva (which has been turning in a profit for months now).
[i]Like I said, you’ve been reduced to shit-picking the meaning of the world militaristic vs. militarism.[i]
Actually, it was militarism/militaristic vs. militant. And yes, that’s nitpicking, but I haven’t been “reduced” to it. I’ve just decided not to cut you any slack.
“No, it only means that I insist on using correct words. Using incorrect words increases the chance of miscommunication and misinformation.”
It was not an incorrect word. People often use words in contexts outside of what the dictionary precisely defines it as. Or have you never read any books beyond dry, technical writing?
“While we’re on the subject, “shit-picking” isn’t a word. “Nitpicking” is. :-)”
It’s slang that is in common enough use that as far I am concerned, and most other people are concerned, it isa word. Language evolves. And not every concievable meaning for a word, and not every word is in the dictionary.
“but I haven’t been “reduced” to it. I’ve just decided not to cut you any slack.”
Yes, you have been reduced to it. Furthermore, if you want to play language police, I can accomidate you:
“chance of miscommunication and misinformation”
plural / singular agreement problems.
“So am I.”
You can’t start a sentence with a coordinating conjunction.
“But I lean more towards Trotskyism,”
Again, it is incorrect to start a sentence with a coordinating conjunction.
Furthermore, what follows “Trotskyism” is not a seperate thought so there should not be a comma after Trotskyism.
“However, that’s irrelevant.”
This is a sentence fragment.
“And yes, that’s nitpicking”
Again, you cannot start a sentence with a coordinating conjunction.
See? I can nitpick too.
Edited 2005-12-17 23:40
Sure, whatever. I don’t really care if you like Kubuntu or not, all I really care about is that it works on my laptop. The only two things that caused me a small amount of grief were the ATI drivers (they fixed a bug and it’s much better now) and the broadcom wireless drivers (I had to use Linuxant’s driverloader, which it turns out is an excellent product). Other non-free things (like mp3s and DVD playing) were trivial to set up using the Ubuntu forums.
Notice that all the things that cause problems were proprietary, closed-source or non-free items; I think there’s a lesson to be learned here…
The rest worked like a charm, including the USB gadgets I put into it.
Anyway, I’m off to a party. I’ll pop in tomorrow.
“Sure, whatever. I don’t really care if you like Kubuntu or not, all I really care about is that it works on my laptop.”
Ahh.. Backing off a bit I see… That’s not what you said before. Before you insisted it worked as well as Windows and was ready for the average user… Now you only say “it works for me.”
I see you also are now backpeddling a bit and admitting that I will likely have at least some problems getting things to work.
“Notice that all the things that cause problems were proprietary, closed-source or non-free items; I think there’s a lesson to be learned here… ”
Do you think the average user cares? Guess what. They don’t. All they are going to say is “It sucks. It doesn’t work with my wireless card.” or “It sucks. It requires me to do a bunch of screwing around to get my wireless card to work.” They aren’t going to care at all about your “Well, but that’ cause it is closed source and propreitary” dribble.
Gee, I formatted my usb pendrive with ext3 filesystem and Windows won’t recognize it now.
So I reformatted it with reiserfs and Windows still won’t recognize it.
What is the matter with Windows usb support?
It works just fine in Linux.
> What is the matter with Windows usb support?
What’s the matter is that when you have 96% marketshare, you don’t have to support a filesystem that has less than 2% marketshare on the desktop.
Again, this is a lame argument and completely invalid argument to try to suggest that Linux doesn’t have any problems and any problems it does have really aren’t its fault.
As I said, as long as the Linux community continues to pretend that the problems don’t exist, they will never get fixed, and Linux will never be ready for the average user’s desktop.
It was not an incorrect word. People often use words in contexts outside of what the dictionary precisely defines it as. Or have you never read any books beyond dry, technical writing?
Of course I have, but it was an incorrect word because “militarism” and “militaristic” both explicitly refer to military affairs, as indicated above. The way you used it was ambiguous, since Linux has nothing to do with the military (apart from being used by the DOD). That’s why it was the wrong word to use, and why two different people corrected you on it.
It’s slang that is in common enough use that as far I am concerned, and most other people are concerned, it isa word.
I’ve never heard that word before, and I’ve been on Internet forums since before the days of WWW. I doubt that “most people” consider it to be a word.
Yes, you have been reduced to it.
No, I haven’t. You’re the one trying to weasel out of the fact that you’ve been proven wrong many times in this thread.
As far as your minor grammatical corrections are concerned, actually you are wrong in a couple of them, because the format of a forum is closer to written speech than prose. Starting sentences with conjunctions is fine in that context.
In any case, English is my second language. What’s you excuse?
Si tu veux, on peut continuer la conversation en français…on pourrait rigoler un peu…
Ahh.. Backing off a bit I see…
Not at all. Gee, you’re really getting desperate, aren’t you?
That’s not what you said before. Before you insisted it worked as well as Windows and was ready for the average user… Now you only say “it works for me.”
I still think a configured Linux system is as easy as Windows for the majority of users, and I still think that getting both to work can be equally as complicated for novice users.
I see you also are now backpeddling a bit and admitting that I will likely have at least some problems getting things to work.
It depends on your hardware.
They aren’t going to care at all about your “Well, but that’ cause it is closed source and propreitary” dribble.
I don’t care if they don’t care, it’s irrelevant to the fact that this is not the responsibility of the distro makers, because they can’t do anything about it. If they could, they would. So your complains should really be adressed to ATI and Broadcom.
Average users buy their PC with Windows pre-installed and pre-configured. Use the same benchmark for Linux and it’ll be as easy (if not easier) to use and maintain than Windows (certainly, they’ll have less malware/adware/spyware problems).
If you don’t use that same benchmark, then you’re being intellectually dishonest, which you’ve proved yourself quite capable of being in this thread.
So anyway, I had the latest version of Ubuntu laying around, so I decided to use that (instead of Kubuntu). And I don’t think you are going to like my results:
1. Wrong video drivers installed. Ubuntu decided to install the Intel i810 drivers for my 855 GME chipset. This results in the widescreen mode in my laptop being unsuported, and also results in being unable to recognize that it my need to change video modes when switching between the internal display and the external one.
Downloaded 855 GME drivers from Intel, which come with no fewer than 9 printed pages of install instructions (on WinXP it is download, double click, “Yes” done).
Followed instructions to build from source. Nada. No compiler installed.. Search the net and figure out I need to apt-get buildessentials. So I do that. Try to buld now. Nada. Latest kernel sources required. Install latest kernel sources. Finally get driver to build, move files to correct location, hack xorg.conf manually to change drivers.
2. Wireless card not detected at all. Search net, find mad-wifi drivers. Again, I have to build them from source. After building them from source, if I were an average user, I now get to learn about sys V config and having startup scripts if I want them to load automatically at startup. So I do this, and finally have my drivers loading at startup. If I were an average user, I would also get to learn about what dhcp, and ifconfig is. (And the mad-wifi driver instructions contain nothing about setting up dhcp with the adapter since it apparently assumes anyone trying to use wireless on Linux should already know how to configure a network for dhcp).
Ok. So finally I have wireless support that boots fine at startup. But even at this point, I don’t have any way of sniffing out available wifi networks and connecting to them–something WinXP can do out of the box by default after you’ve installed wifi drivers.
3. Context sensitive help is virtually non-existant. Example. Popin blank CD, go into CD burner program… Then click “Help”, and instead of getting help on CD-burning, I get taken to a generic help page about the file manager.
4. mp3 files are not supported in the default music player. This wouldn’t be so bad if the player at least gave you a clue as to how to correct the situation. Is there some reason it can’t tell you it needs a plugin, and offer to fetch and install it for you? But no, it doesn’t. All it says is “Unknown file format.” There is really no excuse for this one other than the fact that it is not at all user-friendly.
5. No browser support for WMV or Quicktime out of the box. Again, this wouldn’t be such a big problem if it were obvious that mplayer had to be installed. But it isn’t. Instead, you get taken for a ride down a path of misinformation. You are told you need a plugin, and when you approve getting it, you are taken to Microsoft’s site for example, and then told “Your operating system is not currently supported.”
Again, not all of this is Linux’s fault. But that doesn’t really matter to the typical end user. All that matters to them, is that this creates a fair number of usability problems (some of which are Linux’s fault and could be easily solved).
“If you don’t use that same benchmark, then you’re being intellectually dishonest”
it’s not at all intellectually dishonest. The average user can upgrade their own wifi drivers, or their own video drivers in WinXP. Download, double click, “Yes” done. However, the average user would not be able to do that in Linux with either the wifi drivers, or video drivers in this case.
“which you’ve proved yourself quite capable of being in this thread.”
No. I haven’t. I called you on your claim that Linux was as easy to use and maintain as Windows was, and then you tried to backpeddle beause you knew it was not going to go smooth when I installed on my laptop. You painted yourself into a corner with your claims. It’s your own fault.
Edited 2005-12-18 21:09
“I don’t care if they don’t care, it’s irrelevant to the fact that this is not the responsibility of the distro makers, because they can’t do anything about it.”
It doesn’t matter. Whether it is Linux’s fault or not, it does mean that Linux is not as easy to use as Windows for the average user.
And BTW, if you don’t stop abusing the moderation system, I am going to report your abuse to OSNews.
Some of my comments you have modded down simply because you don’t like what I am saying. They meet none of the criteria at all for being legitimately modded down. All it does is prove how childish and immature you really are.
Edited 2005-12-18 20:59
“If you don’t use that same benchmark, then you’re being intellectually dishonest,”
Btw, I already said that yes, Linux works fine as long as the user doesn’t want to add new hardware to their system. If they do, they start running into problems like I said above.
Oh… And I forgot one of the problems I had.
* No printer driver for my printer. So again, after searching the net, I find that I can use a “generic driver” for an earlier model, which is “reasonably compatible”.
Ok.. So it prints… but not with the correct margins, the photo quality mode is unsupported, and nothing like low ink notification works at all.
Simba, after making a complete ass of yourself in front of everyone here and getting seriously 0wned by archiesteel, my advice to you is: stop trying to defend your baseless arguments (some will call it trolling), because you are just digging yourself into a deeper hole than you’re already in. A wise man once said: “it’s better to keep it quiet and be thought a fool, than to open it and resolve all doubt.” In this case, I believe this applies 100% to you.