Microsoft’s plan to end support for Windows 10 operating system could result in about 240 million personal computers being disposed, potentially adding to landfill waste, Canalys Research said.
The electronic waste from these PCs could weigh an estimated 480 million kilograms, equivalent to 320,000 cars.
While many PCs could remain functional for years post the end of OS support, Canalys warned demand for devices without security updates could be low.
↫ Akash Sriram for Reuters
A lot of these machines are perfectly capable of running Windows 11 if not for Microsoft’s artificial restrictions, and while less relevant – most people can’t just switch to Linux or BSD – there are alternative operating systems to keep these machines going. The only good thing that might come of this is a flurry of cheap, usable hardware on the second hand market, which can be used by us enthusiasts for all kinds of things.
So they are ending support for Windows 10 before Windows 11 even functions properly? I tried using 11 for about a year (until this fall, so not when it was brand new) on my Ryzen 7 5800X/Radeon 6900 XT (which I like to believe are pretty decent and modern specs) system before I gave up and went back to 10. It’s like every update brings some serious performance and/or compatibility issues, especially for AMD systems. Pretty amazing how much they managed to break considering how similar the two systems are really.
I don’t really use Wndows for anything serious either, just gaming and some common office work. I don’t even want to think about how it must be for the poor souls that have to try to do serious work using Windows 11.
This artificial obsoleteness has to end. At least half of the users in the world only use Word or Excel and a web browser anyway and would do just fine with 10 year old systems.
Windows isn’t the problem here, it’s AMD and their frankly, rubbish drivers for Windows 11.
Microsoft get a lot of stick when the blame really lies with the hardware companies releasing sub standard drivers.
What if AMD if allocating more resources to Linux support, hence giving us a better upgrade path than Windows ?
I certainly get better performance and stability from running Linux on a particular AMD box (7730u). And for that machine, Linux is the only path I’m following.
On Windows 11 the default drivers are equally stable, but performance (especially anything 3d like layer slicing 3d models) is slow as molasses.
The moment I install the “latest” catalyst drivers the stability falls through the floor. Even giving the occasional BSOD (equivalent). But while it does run, it’s faster.
On balance that means Linux wins the stability/performance battle when using AMD drivers.
And you are basing this on what? I’ve been running Windows 11 for a couple of years now on a Ryzen 9 5950 with 128 MB RAM on a X570 motherboard, and it has been rock solid for me. Windows 11 in general sucks somewhat, but that’s due to the multiple software models that various apps and components utilize, not core system software.
There is certainly precedent for Microsoft being blamed for stanility issues caused by 3rd party drivers. Go back to Vista for the most high profile example.
https://www.engadget.com/2008-03-27-nvidia-drivers-responsible-for-nearly-30-of-vista-crashes-in-20.html
Adurbe,
We have to be very careful with that conclusion though because even if the article’s stats at face value are true, it doesn’t technically imply that nvidia are to blame for the faults. Just as an example, an operating system fault clearly might impact 3rd party code, causing that 3rd party code to crash. But the mere fact that 3rd party code was affected and crashed does NOT imply the 3rd party code is responsible for the bug! Some of the most challenging bugs are those that defy expectations since the root of the bug isn’t in the obvious place where you are looking.
To be clear, I have no idea if nvidia or MS were more at fault for vista crashes in the specific instances you are referring to, but the article you linked to doesn’t really prove nvidia responsibility even if the stats are factually true. My own kernel drivers broke under vista too. A huge portion of working & reliable drivers, including mine, were broken by microsoft in vista. For better or worse microsoft decided to stop supporting the working & robust drivers from windows xp. Maybe we could say users were better off by the time windows 7 came around, but users of vista definitely suffered as a result of microsoft decision to break driver compatibility.
Or 240 mln PCs can continue to run just fine, with an operating system no longer disrupted every month with windows update, which, recently, is nothing more than forcing edge down our throats and turning “OUR” computers into billboards and ad spots for Microsoft.
Maybe ReactOS can be ready this time and provide an alternative. They missed their shot when XP support finally ended. This will be the best opportunity since.
Sadly they need a few million dollars to hire enough full time developers to get that anywhere close to ready in our lifetimes. (And also to be lucky enough for no one to take the money and run if they do get it.) In the meantime I’m sure it’s greatly responsible for WINE and Steamdeck progress.
After 25 years of never ending catch up, I do not share your optimism about React OS.
Or… wait for it….
They can just install Linux. There are enough varieties that will cover many use cases, and should be simple enough to just visit ubuntu.com (or another).
Or simply make it into a chromebook: https://chromeenterprise.google/os/chromeosflex/
There are few software that really require Windows (like Adobe suite), but if you are in that group, you probably need the best hardware anyway. Hence it might make more sense to donate this older machine, and get a more modern one.
Linux fanboys have been saying that since XP, and the situation hasn’t changed. At this point I blame Linux for still being a terrible desktop alternative. It had all the time in the world, but the community declared it good enough while it’s still mostly a joke among IT crowds. (And your suggestion of Chrome OS is about the same as how reporters do a “tablet challenge” only to go back to a laptop with a real keyboard and always regret the attempt. The productivity software that actually makes people productive is only available for Windows/OSX; you’re basically suggesting taking +2x the time to do a worse job.)
I am unsure if you have used linux in the last 15 years.
BluenoseJake,
Probably not.
Real life example.
I migrated my wife’s old Windows laptop into a Chromebook (Flex) and gave it to my daughter. Got some more good usage out of it until the hardware completely died on us.
For 90%+ of end users Linux today is more than good enough.
dark2,
I am not sure whether you used Linux or Chromebooks recently.
Many professional programmers outright use Linux only. That was our platform of choice at my previous workplace, and it is also common if you are not a Windows/Mac only shop (or a gaming studio).
Chromebooks, too, are much more modern compared to their original state. They can run productivity apps like Visual Studio Code, or Slack, and recent versions can even run Steam games using a (beta) update:
https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/14220699?hl=en
Again, except for special software (like Adobe), or company mandate, there is not much reason not to use Linux anymore.
dark2,
We get it, you are a devoted linux hater. That’s fine, it’s just like with any other squabbles between platforms users like mac vs windows, playstation vs xbox, android vs ios, everybody’s got an opinion. Your complaints are meaningful to you but not necessarily others. I can and do appreciate linux even if you don’t. Take a look at gaming, this used to be one of the biggest barriers for linux users, It’s not perfect and it would be nice if more titles were natively supported, but there are tons of windows games are working fine today thanks to proton. For the most part I’ve been using multiplatform productivity software and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve learned that it’s best not to be tied to one OS. I am impressive just how far linux has come and the anti-linux bashing seems to be mostly driven by defending one’s turf these days than anything I actually care about.. My reality is such that I might spend a week or two on windows and I honestly don’t miss it one bit. Obviously I don’t expect you to care about my preferences, but by the exact same token you shouldn’t expect any of us to care about yours either.
Linux is easy enough for most people until something breaks. With that said, I guess the productivity depends on what you produce.
Also most people use Excel cause it got “nice gridlines to type phone number lists into” and have no idea what it’s really made for. Those people could do just as good with Libreoffice or even Gnumeric. And a lot of so called productivity is done in a web browser.
A LTS Linux with only security and certain app updates, or even an immutable Linux installation would work perfectly fine in many cases. The Adobe crowd is really not that big.
Btw, this is all typical condescending Linux user behavior (from all of you). Assume the user is wrong, list pointless anecdotes instead real data, and most importantly don’t ask people that actually work with spreadsheets (or other software) for a living what’s wrong. The moment you actually do that last one you find out LibreOffice Calc and Google Sheets are nowhere near feature competitive, and are basically the Potemkin villages of software. They appear to be good enough on the surface, but the moment a pro user starts trying to use them, they quickly find out all the features they need aren’t there. Turns out they used all that money to improve the software they make, and open source can’t keep up with lots of full-time, paid programmers.
dark2,
Well no, that’s not really objective, most of us here do understand that there are people who don’t like linux and perhaps they never will. So what though? I for one don’t subscribe to elitism and condescension, quite the opposite in fact. Honestly it doesn’t bother me that people have different software opinions, how silly would that be.
While there are trolls who just won’t stop shoving absolutist dogma about operating systems down everyone’s throat, it’s not always the linux side who are guilty of it.
For me personally the older versions of excel were my favorite software from microsoft by far. This was before the ribbon though, which I hated and still do. I tried to continue using older versions for a while but that became less and less viable. I got tired of microsoft forcing change at me and that motivated me to try out alternatives. While I don’t pretend to be representative of other users, I find this to be a common complaint among those who are windows & msoffice users.
I don’t know what features specifically you are talking about, but I imagine if we polled a large swath of the user base, the majority of spreadsheet users just use the basics. People use google docs because it does what they need. I’m not sure if I’m in your target spreadsheet demographic or not, but I only use a fraction of the features available.
No doubt microsoft makes money hand over fist. No doubt they have more resources, but it’s not always the case that corporate interests align with consumer interests. It’s no secret that sometimes they abuse their dominant position to exploit customers rather than serve us.
For example, adding python to excel is a nice feature to have on the surface, or at least would be except that they design it as an online only cloud dependency, which is asinine. They’re designing features to promote microsoft interests rather than focusing on customer interests, which is a major problem with microsoft these days. At least for people like me, these are anti-feature traps and it is a motivator to avoid microsoft products.
https://www.osnews.com/story/136767/microsoft-brings-python-to-excel/
Alfman,
Adding to that, Google Apps (I think now called G Suite) is actually quite popular. According to BI, they have 3 billion users, and 9 million paying organizations that subscribe to the apps:
https://www.businessinsider.com/google-workspace-9-million-paying-organizations-2023-3
Maybe some features are left out (not maybe, but definitely), but others more than make up for them. Real time collaboration, multi-device cloud access (desktop + mobile + web), and also very simple organization workspaces (taking over from Sharepoint), make them a more than viable alternative.
(And for Linux, I should probably not even need to mention Android, which also powers billions of mobile devices).
Anyway, Windows is still #1 by a wide margin (followed by Mac). But Linux + Google Apps (or Box, or others) are no longer “toys”, but respected alternatives used in many Fortune 500 companies:
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3690590/chromeos-2023-google-has-eye-on-enterprise.html
Watch and learn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98kFh3JpIXk
A big part of this must be their badly judged licensing model changes. When they used to charge for Windows, it didn’t matter so much if people bought new hardware.
Now that they give away upgrades, they have to push people to new hardware (collecting revenue from PC vendors), or of course, start pushing services at their users whether they want it or not.
Such a dysfunctional company.
Shareholders craves for the share of the “risk” they’ve taken.
We cry too much for Windows 10. Yes, they are capable machines and Microsoft sucks for removing Windows 11 support for those processor, but let’s install different OSes on that.
martini,
I hate seeing good hardware go to waste. It would be one thing if nobody wanted it, but it’s another altogether to have corporations sabotaging their own users. This is a sad reality that goes way back.
“Lisa: Steve Jobs’ sabotage and Apple’s secret burial | FULL DOCUMENTARY”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZjbNWgsDt8
Now I realize that I sounded like a Microsoft’s Spin Doctor.
What’s really annoying is that Microsoft will continue to support Windows 10 with patches one way or another, just not for the general public.
First there is Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019, which will be supported until January 2029, which is a good option if you have no problem being stuck on an old Windows 10 version from late 2018 and not having official Windows Store support (you can have the Windows Store on LTSC 2019 but it’s not officially supported). I installed it on my parents’ computers (that don’t meet Windows 11 requirements) and it’s fine for basic applications. Also, not having Microsoft randomly rearrange stuff or show Edge ads is a bonus.
Then there are the ESU upgrades for regular Windows 10 (Home and Pro):
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended-security-updates
These will be for 2-3 years probably, aka until late 2027 or late 2028.
So, Microsoft could prevent some of that unnecessary e-waste and keep their artificial Windows 11 requirements by making those ESU patches available to Windows 10 users for free. But you see, they really want you to buy a new PC because that’s how they make their money now (after giving anyone with a Windows 7 and 8.1 license a free upgrade to Windows 10 as part of their failed ad monetization experiment). It’s the Apple (and Android) model of artificially cutting off existing hardware from patches to encourage purchases of new hardware.
And chances are, it won’t even sell that many PCs. It’s entirely possible people will keep using their existing hardware because ESU will keep Chrome support alive after the general EOL. I mean, Windows 7 had an 11% market share among all Windows versions up until January 2023 precisely because ESU kept Chrome support alive until then (note: Chrome dropped support for Windows 7 weeks after ESU support ended).
So, what this move by Microsoft is really going to achieve is create hordes of unpatchable Windows 10 computers casually browsing the internet. Without even Android’s sandboxing. So, all it takes is a “golden exploit” to have a new Summer of Worms. Are ya feeling lucky?
kurkosdr,
That’s exactly it. A long time ago some of us were worried this would happen: microsoft officially obsolescing hundreds of millions of still-usable computers.
This is very bad and I think microsoft are going to get some heavy blowback for this. Also when these requirements were originally published a long time ago, I speculated that microsoft might end up reversing course once everyone who’s likely to buy a new computer and pay for an OEM copy of windows 11 has already done so. Otherwise they may end up with windows 11/12 loosing marketshare to legacy versions, which makes microsoft look bad. After all they practically had to force many windows 7 users into installing windows 10,
I agree with everything you said, but I wanted to point out that LTSC IoT 2021 exists, and its end of support date is January 13, 2032. That gives you three more years of support for your parents, along with some boosted security features.
As an aside, I’m in the slightly paranoid camp that believes Windows will cease to be a one time license purchase some time after that date, when Windows 11 EOL is approaching. Windows 12 will be the true “forever Windows” version Microsoft hinted at when 10 was released, but it will be subscription only. Your new computer will come with a 90 day (or six month at most) trial subscription for the OS, and once that period is over you’ll have to fork over money every month to continue to use all but the most basic features: Edge browser only, App Store apps only, no personalization, forced shutdowns after so many hours; basically it will become like the current “Windows S Mode” combined with an unlicensed/unactivated state, just enough functionality to not be sued in a class action.
I’m calling it now: Windows as a Service is the end goal, and really always was. It just took the gradual shift towards that paradigm that occurred with other major software vendors over the past two decades to warm us all up to the idea and make it “no big deal”. Well Microsoft, it is a big fucking deal, and for some of us it’s a deal breaker.
Morgan,
I remember when promoting operating systems meant giving users features to be excited about. Win 9X came out with huge fan fair and people camping out for products they wanted. Today’s microsoft, decades later, is about turning windows into an advertising platform. and though it’s proven very unpopular with their own customers, they still want to turn windows into a walled garden. The problem for microsoft is that it’s been very difficult for them to close the win32 compatibility hole. But I don’t put it beneath them to eventually block win32s by default and sell it as an upgrade or perhaps even a reoccurring service.
Problem is, I can’t find any “key resellers” selling LTSC IoT 2021 licenses (I can for LTSC 2019). Also, there is no such thing as a “digital licence” on LTSC, which means you can’t pull the usual trick of activating Windows using a crack and then wiping the harddrive clean and re-installing Windows so the new installation will find the “digital licence” from the previous activation (that you did with the old cracked installation). Which means you have to actually use the cracked installation, and I don’t trust that those cracks aren’t doing something nasty while they run with admin privileges.
For 2 years of extra usage, it just isn’t worth it, I have already told my parents they’ll need new computers in 2029.
In a world macOS didn’t exist and SteamOS wasn’t the evolving threat it is, they could have done it, but in the real world, something like the above would instantly make Windows computers a very hard sell (not that they aren’t already, Windows has been losing market share to macOS and to a degree even ChromeOS in all important markets like the US). What Microsoft did instead is borrow a page from the playbook of macOS, where OS upgrades are given away or sold for a nominal price but only support hardware that’s not more than X years old. That way, a certain profit margin can be backed into the product and the effective yearly subscription is that profit margin divided by X. In Microsoft’s terms, that margin is the Windows license the OEM pays. However, unlike Apple, Microsoft has a large footprint in businesses, and they can’t pull such consumerist nonsense on businesses, hence the whole ESU thing, which has the side-effect of allowing home users to keep running Chrome on unpatchable versions of Windows. And this is Microsoft’s problem as a company: they are more like Unisys (a backwards compatibility provider, for win32 in Microsoft’s case, with a large footprint in businesses) but want to be more like Apple.
Please don’t think I’m being rude, but you aren’t looking hard enough. There are quite a few grey market key sellers with 2021 IoT licenses available (which is how I got mine for my one Windows machine), and they do indeed register with Microsoft’s activation servers so you can do a wipe and reinstall followed by a successful reactivation once you’re online. Of course, if you’re using an official ISO and a more or less legitimate key, you won’t need to reinstall as you can trust the original installation.
Or, since you mentioned cracks, I’ll go there too: massgrave is your friend. I bought the license I’m using so I’d feel somewhat legitimate, but I’ve tested that method as well on throwaway hardware and it works fine. It’s also not really a crack as much as a script that automates things you can do yourself manually in Powershell to permanently activate any Windows SKU. Microsoft left the door open to such a method, and smart people noticed.
I’ve already installed LTSC 2019 on my parent’s computers, and I am not going through the process of re-installing everything from scratch for 2 more years of usage. So, what matters is that I couldn’t find a “resold” LTSC IoT 2021 license back then. I’ll just get them new computers instead.
Also, I don’t know if LTSC IoT 2021 supports Greek (for the UI, of course it does for keyboard input) or if it’s just US English only, so that was another uncertainty. My parents are used to Greek (and so am I tbh).
But I may use LTSC IoT 2021 on some Alienware 3D laptops from 2013-2014 which I keep for the Nvidia 3D Vision functionality despite their age, so thanks for the tip.
Nothing will happen. It doesn’t work like that. There won’t be abandoned computers in landfills. People use their computers for work. They can’t simply abandon them, and you can’t blame them despite the security implications. The only way XP disappeared was that old computers eventually died.
hussam,
It won’t be 100% of them, and won’t be right away…but a lot of the time it actually does work like that. It may be an open question as to how much, but it will absolutely have an impact.
As soon as MS dropped support for win7, new versions of .net broke compatibility with windows 7. Software that I depended on required the latest .net runtime, which refused to run on windows 7. It left me with no choice but to replace windows 7. Obviously these breakages were 100% artificial, but they were breakages nevertheless.
One of the company’s I work for upgraded visual studio (against my wishes BTW) and the new executables for this old software stopped working on windows 7 out of the box. Again, there’s no technical reason it shouldn’t run and there’s no fundamental incompatibility, but microsoft intentionally broke the new runtime DLL that all windows executables link to. Unless 3rd party developers go out of their way to install old runtimes into new versions of visual studio, then they become pawns to microsoft’s planned obsolescence.
Granted, sometimes companies are stuck with old systems they cannot upgrade. Hospital equipment, CNC equipment, dental equipment, etc are examples of this. But the majority of companies try to run current and supported software, and the majority of that windows software is compiled with MSVC. Once they upgrade, their software generally stops working on unsupported versions of windows.
Absolutely. The issue is that there is also a substantial number of computers used only for Microsoft Office, MS Edge, Google Chrome, and some older version of Adobe Photoshop or Autodesk Autocad. Old versions of these pieces of software won’t suddenly stop working, further reducing the incentive to upgrade. The same happened with Windows 7. It naturally disappeared as new machines replaced older ones.
Computers also cost money. People will think twice before discarding working machines.
hussam,
You’re not wrong about these things, but many people and businesses really do need to run current software. Even those who don’t necessarily need the latest and greatest may find that their software has gone to a subscription model such that they may even be blocked from continuing to run old software. Ie adobe are guilty of this.
At least microsoft’s checks are only enforced at win11 installation time and can be bypassed, but nobody knows for how long.
The problem is all the security holes in these old machines. Intel management engine and lack of microcode updates and now LogoFAIL that will not be fixed. And lack of TPM and flaws in the CPUs is what stops MS from approving them for Windows 11 ?
bugjacobs,
All speculative architectures including new ones that are supported by windows 11 remain vulnerable to the spectre flaws, and always will be. The problem is that speculative features fundamentally trade off between performance and timing vulnerabilities. The processor takes shortcuts and saves time, which makes users happy about performance, but simultaneously creates timing vulnerabilities that leak information. The fix is absolutely trivial: disable all features that improve performance over baseline so that no information can be gleaned from lookaside buffers/caching/etc. But then we end up giving up 3-4 decades of CPU evolution. Consider that even apple CPUs launched 3 years after the spectre disclosures are technically vulnerable too.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/10/new-pacman-flaw-in-apple-silicon-is-an-echo-of-spectre-and-meltdown
We’ve taken a middle of the road approach, still relying on software/OS mitigations to minimize leakage across security domains, which is all we can really do here unless we give up speculation altogether.
https://security.googleblog.com/2021/03/a-spectre-proof-of-concept-for-spectre.html
As for TPM, the users who care about that already have it, and those who don’t care about it….they may not even want it. Some of us are still hesitant to embrace it because of it’s ability to take keys away from owners and promote Hollywoodesque DRM.
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:206552/FULLTEXT01.pdf
TPM doesn’t have to be used to control owners, but one really has to put a lot of faith into vendors like microsoft to not be abusive with it.