Submitted by The Spoon microkernel has as one of its goals: “A stable and efficient microkernel with clearly defined interfaces which provide all the necessary functions needed to build a modern and complete operating system on top.” The project’s progress page lists the latest achievements, and there’s even a screenshot page.
It looks like satisfaction won’t come for some unless there is a kernel debate at least once a week.
If I may be so bold to ask, what is the news here? Streaming was added to an obscure microkernel and a few bugs appeared?
If I may be so bold to ask, what is the news here? Streaming was added to an obscure microkernel and a few bugs appeared?
What debate? Look, we’re OSNews, and as such, this news is more than appropriate. Or would you want us to report on Linux, Windows, and OSX only, just because AnalystX finds the kernel obscure?
‘What debate? Look, we’re OSNews’
There’s no point in playing ignorant. You know any mention of microkernel starts a debate. There’s also no point in pretending this is news. The last time OSNews reported on this kernel was back on March 11, 2005. Are you saying nothing newsworthy happened with this kernel since then?
‘because AnalystX finds the kernel obscure’
It IS obscure. It has nothing to do with me. I have no problem with OSNews reporting on obscure OSs anyway. I just though it might be better if it was done when there was actual news rather than following several heated debates on kernel design.
I just though it might be better if it was done when there was actual news rather than following several heated debates on kernel design.
The only one seeing this magical debate is you.
Yes, very magical.
Tanenbaum-Torvalds Debate: Part II
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=14612
The screenshots of the supposed progress are not even from 2006. I like hobby OSs. I even like microkernels. This is my contention: this is not news.
Yes, very magical.
I still don’t see that debate here, though. In other items, oh yes, but here? I dun see it.
This is my contention: this is not news.
And my contention is that this is news. Every now and then, a small project gets attention. AOS4, HURD, and others. We don’t keep track of every change, but we do report on them every now and then.
That ain’t gonna change.
‘I still don’t see that debate here’
You just posted it!
‘Every now and then, a small project gets attention.’
Then call this a blog, not a news site. Simply bringing attention to small projects != reporting on news. Again, I love hearing about small projects, but I come here to hear about news. Very little has changed since March for Spoon. If you’re really that far behind in reporting progress, than I’m okay with that, but it just seems a little too closely spaced to the kernel debates for comfort.
“Simply bringing attention to small projects != reporting on news.”
– Um, yes it does. That’s like 99% of the purpose of this site (as far as I’ve seen in the past four years). Have you even read many of the artices here? This is O(perating) S(ystem) news, thus (get ready!) operating systems qualify as ‘news’.
“I love hearing about small projects, but I come here to hear about news.”
– So what exactly do you ‘love hearing’, especially if this isn’t ‘news’ to you? And why would you go through all the effort of complaining about this null point?…
…heck, why am I bothering to get involved in this petty argument? I’ll stop now, it’s a waste of time.
I like spoon. It’s fairly new, it’s a hobby OS, it’s had some developement done – so Thom, keep up the good work and have more articles about spoon!
‘operating systems qualify as ‘news”
What? If that were true there would be hundreds of “news” reports coming though OSNews everyday. Operating systems in and of itself is not news. News of operating systems and their progress is news. At least when Thom posted “Why I Like Microkernels” it wasn’t disguised as news. Here lies the evidence of the trend:
Progress in the Spoon Microkernel (2006-05-30)
Tanenbaum-Torvalds Debate: Part II (2006-05-15)
‘Debunking Linus’s Latest’ (2006-05-11)
Torvalds Comments on Micro vs. Monolithic Debate (2006-05-09)
Can We Make Operating Systems Reliable and Secure? (2006-05-05)
Why Monolithic Kernels Aren’t the End of the World (2006-04-24)
Why I Like Microkernels (2006-04-16)
You can claim whatever you want, but this is an inordinate amount of micro versus monolithic debating. I can also find lots of news reports of things which are not about operating systems on this site, but I don’t mind that because at least it’s news.
“So what exactly do you ‘love hearing'”
News. I like OSNews because it generally reports on news faster than Slashdot.
‘And why would you go through all the effort of complaining about this null point?’
Your post was considerably longer than my first post (which was all I initially wanted to say to find out what the news was). I did mention the boldness of the post. I still don’t see the news yet.
Okay, let’s do this.
[Your first post said:]
“If I may be so bold to ask, what is the news here? Streaming was added to an obscure microkernel and a few bugs appeared?”
– So yes, you answered your own question of ‘why is this news?’. The answer (as you so eloquently put it) is:
“Streaming was added to an obscure microkernel and a few bugs appeared?”
“inordinate amount of micro versus monolithic debating”
– Question: How many other kernel design paradigms are out there and in operation? I see micro/nano, hybrid, and macro. Just about all the rest are experimental boot-loaders that toy with ‘exo-kernel’, ‘non-kernel’, ‘VOID architecture’, but nothing with a usable implementation that could be objectively debated.
“Your post was considerably longer than my first post”
– Good observation. I can type. I can type a lot.
” there would be hundreds of ‘news’ reports coming though OSNews everyday”
– I doubt anyone (specifically the moderators) have the time to add ‘hundreds’ of reports ANY day. Quantity does not equate quality, sorry you didn’t seem to think the hard work put into Spoon isn’t ‘newsworthy’, but I’m sure some people here do.
“…things which are not about operating systems on this site, but I don’t mind that because at least it’s news. ”
– So clearly, the ‘OS’ is not so much of what you’re concerned about, rather that ‘news’ is. Well, I don’t know what this site can bring you that CNN can’t – if this is your reason for reading here…
“I still don’t see the news yet.”
– Sometimes small things are news. You’re looking for something big. You won’t find it (in this article). It may not be Earth-shattering, but some poor, socially-awkward, goofy little nerds like me thought this was interesting.
—-
Personally, some of the best articles on this site are ones that aren’t really ‘news’. The many ‘how-to’ and tutorials are great resources for people who want to learn the details of system admin (as non-exciting as that is). Heart-stopping, adrenaline-pumping action is quite rare in the operating system field.
i’ve modded you up 3 times because i think debate is a good thing, but please shut up. you made your point and i won’t mod up for a 4th time.
ontopic: how is that libunix thing of spoon interesting for other projects?
I appreciate the sentiment. I think it’s important to call a spade a spade. And to add my two cents to the ensuing continuation of the debate, I think Coyotos is a better microkernel than Spoon. It has more momentum, relevance, and features, but contrary to the reported purpose of this site, news of it hasn’t been reported on it since January 2005 (even though several things have changed).
http://www.coyotos.org/
It has more momentum, relevance, and features, but contrary to the reported purpose of this site, news of it hasn’t been reported on it since January 2005 (even though several things have changed).
That’s probably because no one submitted the news to OSNews. Next time you see something interesting going on with Coyotos, submit it to OSNews.
Now stop trolling.
Wow, you are an thoughtless. This is a hobby OS! its not about momentum or relevence or features. And the fact is OS news reports on hobbyOSs. I like that. This isn’t Major OS news, or OS news on OSs with market share, this is OS news. I for one find spoon interesting, kudos to the programmer(s). Your whole tangent on micro kernel debate was woefully of topic and I’m glad its below -2 so I don’t have to see it anymore.
Btw does anyone know what license this is under? I can’t find any mention on the web page.
http://www.djm.co.za/spoon/license.php
You’ll see it’s pretty familiar license. Durand John Miller has chosen the revised BSD-license.
Thanks, I don’t know how I missed that when looking at the site. I must be blind, thanks again.
Some people (such as myself) occupy some of their time researching these “obscure” microkernels (and OSs in general.) In fact, not only do I occupy some of my time reading about such things, I actually enjoy doing so!
Wait… we’re on OSnews… and I’m interested in OSs… something must be wrong here…
That being said, this looks like an interesting project. Who knows if it’ll ever be commercially successful, but one thing is for certain – the people involved are very likely learning huge amounts, and no matter what the outcome of this project, they will be better for it. So will I.
Congrats on the progress guys/gals, and keep up the great work!
dude, this is a cool project. i look into research os’s or hobby projects regularly, and didn’t found this one yet. So, on a site called OSnews, i find this a good and appropriate reading..
What kernel debate? You made the first post, and I don’t see anything about the article that razzes micro or monolithic kernels. So there was a post about a kernel project, and that kernel happens to be a microkernel. Big deal. Do you expect OSNews to refuse to post anything that has something to do with the subject of a heated debate? If that’s the way things should go, the whole site might as well close down, because there couldn’t be any posts about Linux, Windows, OS X, any BSD, X, Novell, the BSD TCP/IP stack, techniques for handling virtual memory, Amiga OS, windowmanagers and desktop environments. . .
Come to think of it, name one topic that has never sparked a debate. Just one.
The news here is that it’s an interesting kernel. I was glad to see the link; maybe it’s been around for a while, and maybe it’s not news to you, but I hadn’t heard about it before and I’m always glad for a link to an interesting project.
I wonder when it will fork …
Forking is so last year, were into sporking now.
And thanks for pointing this out Thom, as one of the most interesting parts of this site was how it used to have a lot of news about obscure and otherwise unmentioned oses and other projects that deserved to be seen.
Ha! ‘Sporking’!!! That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in days!! (my life is so lame)
I’m a little out of it today, so I didn’t really ‘get it’ until I went to lunch – when I nearly choked to death on a chicken salad…. while eating WITH A SPORK!
Whhoooo….. you had to be there to appreciate it.
I think we should have “Spoon Week” at OSNews, just to rub in the ‘newsworthyness’ of this project. Any takers? Thom?
I believe the decision of forking the spoon is balancing on the edge of a knife… *sigh*
Sorry, I just had to write it
Well, it is better than my idea of a ‘butter knife’ for buttering up the developer anytime.
Hobby OSes are cool!!! I also like reading about them (sometimes I even learn a little), and sometimes I even download and try them. I have always respected those who undertake to write their own OS, be it either as a hobby or with the idea of making it into a business.
Please keep reporting on these.
It’s news because Microkernel’s are much superior to Monolithic Kernels, that’s just fact.
You know I have no interest in reading about the latest new Linux projects or what is happening with AmigaOS. I guess whenever they post articles or links on those topics I should complain about it. I have a better idea, I simply will continue to skip over them and read the ones I like!
Take a note AnalystX, rather than fill up a board with comments about what you think is a valid article or not, simply skip it and move on. Better yet, start contributing to the site links and stories that you want to see. OSNews is always willing to accept new contributors.
Heh I wanted to retalliate but it seems others have stolen my thunder.
Too bad, I like retalliation (as you undoubtedly (and sadly, sometimes, too) know).
😉
PUH-lease, no more comments about “Why is this news”. It’s news because someone thought it was interesting. If you don’t agree, don’t read any furuther, and don’t recommend the article. If you think it is interesting, read it and maybe even recommend the article. ‘Nuff said!
I submitted this story because I’ve following the spoon microkernel for the last couple of years, and have often wondered why it was mentioned so little in here.
I was unsure whether anything had been submitted on the kernel before, and I knew for sure I hadn’t seen anything on OSN for a very long while, apart from a few comments here and there, so I decided to submit it, just in case somebody else might be interested in this kernel.
Durand John Miller has been working on his hobby “research” project for several years, and I find it entertaining to follow his progress “blog”, and it contains quite a few eye openers as well.
It may be that it doesn’t qualify as news in the strict sense, but on the other hand, all newspapers print things that doesn’t qualify as news. There are also things as interviews, views, reviews etc.
I had hoped for a discussion on the kernel’s technical merits, but I was obviously embarrasingly naïve in that regard.
@ AnalystX -> What do you think of Miller’s approach in regard to devfs? Or his coding style? Or his approach in libunix?
That’s the kind of discussion _I_ was hoping for. But I made a fool of myself again – I’m getting quite good at that
BTW: Sorry for submitting “news” unworthy for your eyes ( not being sarcastic at all… nooooo… I would never be that
)
And yes, I like “obscure” systems. Obscurity is fun
Apart from this rant, I just want to say that a lot of other persons in this thread, incl. Thom, already have written pretty much what I think.
[EDITED:] I fixed one typo.
Edited 2006-05-30 21:13
‘It may be that it doesn’t qualify as news in the strict sense’
Thank you for your sincerity. If it were an editorial I wouldn’t have asked what the news was. I find things like this interesting too (I modded you up for that reason), but when it comes down to getting the news quickly, I like just knowing “where” the news is.
‘There are also things as interviews, views, reviews etc.’
You are correct. That’s why there are sections for those things: Interviews, Editorials, Meta Blog.
‘I had hoped for a discussion on the kernel’s technical merits’
The fact that this hasn’t happened yet, seems to indicate people are more interested in attacking someone that states what should be obvious. For those that said I should have just skipped the article and not posted, you are hypocrites. You could have just skipped reading my post, but you didn’t.
‘Sorry for submitting “news” unworthy for your eyes’
What would have been nice is if this was submitted as an editorial with more information about what’s going on with the project. There are very few details in the progress section. I would have still read it, but at some other time since it isn’t time sensitive (as news is expected to be).
‘What do you think of Miller’s approach in regard to devfs?’
I think it’s interesting. I like the idea of a file system for devices. I think more needs to be written up about this kernel though. That’s why this would make a perfect editorial.
Hey guys (and gals).
Don’t mod his post down. This one does not deserve it. His earlier posts are a different issue.
Thank you for your sincerity. If it were an editorial I wouldn’t have asked what the news was. I find things like this interesting too (I modded you up for that reason), but when it comes down to getting the news quickly, I like just knowing “where” the news is.
As you very well know, here on OSN all articles are posted under the common hat “News”.
“Features”, “Interviews” and “Editorials” are merely subsections to the common hat “News”.
And I did post it as news, because I wrote about the latest progress (some of it from yesterday… well, yesterday’s yesterday
Besides that, your first posts were somewhat unfortunate (to put it mildly) if all you wanted, was this post to be placed “properly”.
The fact that this hasn’t happened yet, seems to indicate people are more interested in attacking someone that states what should be obvious. For those that said I should have just skipped the article and not posted, you are hypocrites. You could have just skipped reading my post, but you didn’t.
Well, you did come out in a pretty offensive manner, going far beyond what was reasonable, if all you wanted was a “proper placement” (in your eyes).
What would have been nice is if this was submitted as an editorial with more information about what’s going on with the project. There are very few details in the progress section. I would have still read it, but at some other time since it isn’t time sensitive (as news is expected to be).
Well, perhaps somebody is studying spoon much closer now, after this submission, and will write an editorial. Who knows? The progress pages are going several years back, and nobody prevents people from downloading the source and study it.
Yes, devfs is interesting, but I wonder how it affects spoon’s capability to play videos, and how the heck it did it before
Another, perhaps more interesting element is libUNIX. It won’t affect OS’es like SkyOS, Syllable and Haiku and other already POSIX compatible OS’es, but I believe it would be quite useful for other tiny early stage OS’es.
And yes, an editorial would be nice. Are you going to write it?
[EDIT:] Fixed a typo.
Edited 2006-05-30 22:11
‘”Features”, “Interviews” and “Editorials” are merely subsections to the common hat “News”.’
The titles are red if they aren’t news.
‘perhaps somebody is studying spoon much closer now, after this submission’
I can just about guarantee it now. Perhaps more people will read this “story” because of how much “interest” it has garnered, unmistakably evidenced by the number of comments. 😉
‘Are you going to write it?’
As much as I like some of Spoon’s concepts, I don’t have enough inside information to write an editorial on it. I have a title for it though, “Why I Like Spoon” in honor of Thom’s example.
> dylansmrjones:
> I submitted this story because I’ve following the spoon microkernel for the last couple of years, and have often wondered why it was mentioned so little in here.
Well, I for one am glad you submitted it. I must of miss the old posts because this is the first I remember hearing of it. I personally have no use for ‘Spoon’ but I like know about such things, you never know when it will come in handy to point out as the solution to some-else’s problem. And sometime just looking at a diffirent OS like this clues you into something you don’t understand about the one you are using. Thanks for submitting.
From the basic discription on the website, streaming sounds like an interesting idea where the kernel/device driver will push events up into user-space, rather than having the user-space code poll for events. It’s an interesting approach and I always like to see this sort of approach of taking an idea and genericising it; you can discover all sorts of interesting ways of using a previously limited feature.
I’m not too convinced by libunix though. An OS is usually either POSIX compliant or it isn’t. Writing a POSIX compatability layer over a non-POSIX kernel can be done but it usually ends up being so system specific that you may as well write a seperate layer for each system instead of trying to create a portable one.
His SMP/APIC code works, too.
but I hope we don’t see a fork too soon.
In the links section of the site, there are some links I’ve not seen before, especially this one, which has a very long list of operating systems:
http://www.uw-pc.com/os.html
For an application writer, it does not matter how the kernel does it, but what does its APIs offer. I did not find any online docs, so I can not tell how good its APIs are.
If it is another unix variant based on C, I would like to say “please, no more c/unix”!!! in this day and age, an O/S should be (at least) garbage-collected.
> If it is another unix variant based on C, I would like to say “please, no more c/unix”!!! in this day and age, an O/S should be (at least) garbage-collected.
Why?
Is it better for the end user?