Kevin Carmony of Linspire/Freespire has announced that the first beta of Freespire has been released earlier than anticipated. Get it from the download page. According to Carmony, this release includes out-of-the-box support for proprietary formats such as .mp3 and WMV, plug-and-play support for Ati and nVIDIA cards without user intervention, Click-N-Run, and much more.
I wouldn’t mind giving it a try, but I continually wonder , just how much support there will actually be for theis distro from the community. I don’t doubt that linspire is willing to work with the community, but I wonder how many in the community have a desire to work with freespire.
Edited 2006-07-16 21:46
Hard to say of course, but I imagine there would be some desire, since Freespire was originally an entirely community created alternative (not that one would know it, given that their page says “Linspire is the founder, maintainer and lead sponsor of the Freespire project.”) Unless you’re thinking that any interest was exactly because Linspire wasn’t involved, and that it will disappear now that they are
Alot of talk has been made about Linspire and Freespire shipping with proprietary contect and alot of the time people have seen that as a negative quality. While some users might appreciate the built-in support for W32Codecs and the like, others see it as a betrayal of OSS and Free Software in general. Unfortunately the people most likely turned away are the people you definately want on your side, they are the linux guru’s that really know their stuff.
I think freespire is a good idea, but lately with the complete nature of Ubuntu as a windows desktop replacement, I don’t see alot of support coming from the ‘hardcore’ community. Ubuntu doesn’t ship with proprietary codecs and the like (although I think it does have the nvidia drivers) but it does add the option do download them if you need them.
All I definately know is that I would like to give FreeSpire to my parents so I could rid them of the virus that is Windows once and for all.
Pet peeve alert: “a lot” are two words; not “alot” as you’ve incorrectly written (along with countless others on this and other sites.) Obviously you’re well educated otherwise. Let’s write intelligent as well. Spread the word (or should I say words.) Thanks!
Try this:
Let’s write intelligently as well.
/sorry
Maybe he just wants you to write the word intelligent.
Thank God someone else notices this too! I don’t know why so many tech. people always join these words. Is the educational system failing someplace? There is definately a difference between writing well and basic intelligence.
definitely
Maybe everyone already nows this, but there will be 2 versions of freespire – one with all free software, and one thas has non-free stuff like java, flash, etc.
Kevin Carmony stated in his post that he wants to keep this early release quiet, as there are plenty of things to improve upon; he would rather have a media buzz surrounding the 1.0 release. I would not be surprised if this announcement hits the Distro Watch Weekly Newsletter.
Just installing it now, and oh wow, the installer just doesn’t compare to anything else. It’s so simple it makes installing Windows/Ubuntu/OS X look over complicated.
If Freespire shows it can be done, why is it so hard for others to follow, really?
I can understand some of the concerns about whether people will contribute or not. At the same time – if folks were to go to the site and check around they might be surprised as to who is already involved. The Freespire project should not be confused with the release a few months back of the same named ISO. That was a pet project of a Insider of Linspire and someone released it without his permission. Little did he know that Linspire had been working on this “project” for a couple years. That individual is also on the new Freespire board. Here is a list of the current board members:
http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_Leadership_Board_Home
Andrew Betts – (The insider who’s project was released)
Jono Bacon (Linux and Open Source Consultant)
Kevin Carmony (Linspire’s CEO)
Jim Curtin (CEO – Win4Lin)
Martin Michlmayr (Spent 10 years as Debian project leader.)
Jeff Mitchell (Amarok developer – MIT research staff)
Ian Murdoch (CTO Free Standard Group – Founder of Debian)
Chris Norman (IT Director – Cinemark Theaters)
Chris John Ramaglia (Creator of Klikit)
Mathew Revell (Writer and LugRadio presenter)
Kevin Shockey (Editor in Chief, Tux Magazine)
Tom Welsh (Senior Programming Manager – LDS Church)
One should really check out the Freespire site and Wiki before coming to any conclusions. There will be a ISO that has proprietary code and there will be a totally open version. With either one you will be able to use either apt-get or for those who use CNR – CNR. Apps that cost money – such as Win4Lin and a DVD Player can be purchased through CNR. Even for those who do not choose to sign up for CNR. Those who want to use Apt – can do so.
The root versus user is no longer a issue. Freespire uses sudo in much the same way Ubuntu does.
Check it out and poke around. Folks might be surprised.
No I don’t work for Linspire. LOL
“Kevin Carmony stated in his post that he wants to keep this early release quiet, as there are plenty of things to improve upon; he would rather have a media buzz surrounding the 1.0 release. I would not be surprised if this announcement hits the Distro Watch Weekly Newsletter.”
I believe you are correct – however as usual – the cat is out of the bag.
This first release is Beta 1. It definitely Beta material. People should not expect anything more. There is at this point only one initial release. The Wiki does explain the timeline and plan for releases.
It does work, but there are many bugs (Did I mention this was Beta software????) so don’t expect a completely smooth ride.
Feel like testing and helping find the Bugs? Download it. It is free!
within the hour at http://shots.osdir.com
Screenshots are online: http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=699&slide=9…
According to Carmony, this release includes out-of-the-box support for proprietary formats such as .mp3 and WMV, plug-and-play support for Ati and nVIDIA cards…
I am not a legal expert but didn’t the act of bundling propritery nvidia card drivers land another distribution into trouble some time back?
On a different note, I think this is the step in the right direction for a Linux distribution and kudos to Carmony for taking this step of releasing Freespire.
Edited 2006-07-17 01:05
It depends on how they do it. If they put the proprietary code on the install CD image, or if the installer pulls it from the net by default, then it is a violation. If the code is not distributed on the CD and the installer (upon detecting the appropriate hardware) prompts the user to accept the license and download the proprietary driver, then it is perfectly legit.
The other distribution you are referring to (I can’t remember which one) was a LiveCD that contained the proprietary drivers on the disk and loaded them without asking the user’s permission. That got them in trouble.
It’s all a load of crap IMHO. So many products and services operate with terms like: “by using this product or service, you agree to abide by our license or terms of service.” If these proprietary software vendors would agree to similar terms, then everyone’s life would be much easier.
“If these proprietary software vendors would agree to similar terms, then everyone’s life would be much easier.”
Between the FSF and the OSI, we have our share of licenses and conflicts. 😉
You’re certainly right… but you’re taking that statment out of context in hopes of starting one of my least favorite arguments, the one I dread so much, especially the amatuerish brand replayed ad nauseum on OSNews.
Seriously, if you’re gunna do the whole GPL/BSD/CDDL debate thing, you gotta do it right, and I’ve never seen it done right on OSNews, so let’s not do it, OK?
Clearly, I was just pointing out that click-through/prompt-through licensing is completely unecessary. These proprietary vendors can assert whatever license agreement they wish without user intervention, so long as it’s included prominently in the installation (i.e. the LICENSE or README files).
“You’re certainly right… ”
No , he aint.
“but you’re taking … ad nauseum on OSNews. ”
Reading your answers , my toughts are that you clearly dont know , dont understand and are not qualified in any minimal way to discuss the subject.
“and I’ve never seen it done right on OSNews”
Read my post.
“Clearly, I was just … completely unecessary.”
You where not really clear or right , but that was about close enough.
“These proprietary … installation (i.e. the LICENSE or README files). ”
No , thats the problem today , most people think ( rather they dont at all , but its mostly due to there failed education about laws and rights ) that corporation have every right to screw you out of any rights they feel like at any time in any shape or form.
Most license are illegal and most readme are not law bidding , the problem is you have to go to court to get them revoked and thats a cost most people are not whilling to pay on there time and dime.
“Between the FSF and the OSI ”
Thats two diferent certification :
FSF certify Free softwares.
OSI certify Open Source software.
“we have our share of licenses”
Neither group are responsible for that , its the developper , lawyers and special interest group that are to blame , I dont think it would look good politically to tell a new license maker that there license is rejected on the basis that one almost exactly the same exist , it would be for the courts of each country to decide anyway.
“and conflicts”
There is almost no conflicts between the two group , there is a lot of individuals in those groups who disagree with each others , but its human nature to argue things.
The real problem come from the definitions ( Of what is what ) who are really lax in there terms and allow , Lying , traitor and thieve license to be included.
Open Source software should always be Open Source and Free software should always be Free software with no possibility to change them for any reason to something else. The commercial lies have been proven wrong by 15 years of commercial use.
Open Source dont survive very well on its own , exactly because of those who distort it , If you disagree :
Windows ( Open Source King , who make proprietary code with it )
Apple ( Open Source Prince , who make proprietary code with and sometime let the Open Source community have something back )
GNU/Linux , Free Software.
Explain why those 3 are the Main OS today for the majority and why hardware maker make most hardware with them in mind.
“It depends on how they do it.”
Yes.
“If they put the proprietary code on the install CD image”
No , not at all , you can mix proprietary and GPL software on the same CD image.
“or if the installer pulls it from the net by default,”
No , thats not a/the problem either.
You cant link GPL software to proprietary software directly , You cant integrate GPL code in your software/driver if the end result is not GPL.
Kororaa did put ATI and Nvidia propritary module in the Linux kernel on there Live CD and linked them with GPL code directly.
Oh, and I should clarify that it wouldn’t be a violation of the GPL governing the distribution of the distro (finally a good reason to use that abbreviation), it would be a violation of general copyright law with respect to the proprietary vendor’s code.
As an agency that gives out free computers that has very small budget we have long used Linux because of cost. Right now we use SuSE. Because it is easy to install and maintain even for a novice. I can tell you that 100 copies of Linux went to our clients so far in the last year.
As for the usability of Linux – We have no problems getting people started using it right away. The Vast majority of the computers we give out keep their Linux installs. We know because we follow up and know what is happening on about 80% of our system.
http://computers4all.org/page7.html
for more information on this.
We have tried many Linux Distros over the years – and in fact had passed on Linspire in the past because of Attached cost and not because of any problems encountered by the average novice that uses it. Once Freespire is a little further along we will give it another examination.
I just hope they hurry and put the FREE in FREESPIRE!
Until then they have just rolled out a different linspire IMO.
When I see them offering a truly “free” distro is when I will be interested and I will feel like they are really trying to be more than a commercial distro.
I have a word for people like you : LEECH.
You dont contribute.
You dont test anything.
You dont pay for anything.
Linspire should be rewarded by you by at least testing there latest offering and you reporting to them where you see something they could offer a FREE and working solution.
Commercial Distribution are not the problem , we need them to contribute GPL code , have full time paid developpers and make working solution for the majority who dont.
Its Free software , not Leech software. Freedom come at a price.
You know me so well, already.
btw – I WAS speaking of freedom and not price but considering freespire has already stated the distro will be without cost I cant imagine how using it would be leeching. If you had read and actually thought about my post then it would of been fairly obvious that the FREE i spoke of was freedom. As stated, what they have rolled out is nothing more or less than linspire. Some new tweaks and adjustments and no cost for the beat but thats about it.
I didn’t say anything was wrong with being a commercial distro. But if all linspire was going to be was a commercial distro then there wasnt any need to start the freespire project was there? And there is a difference in being JUST a commercial distro and being a good community player that just happens to be a commercial distro also.
I dont contribute much, that sadly is true. I help on forums. I come up with little hacks. I hope to roll out a project that will make debian a little easier for those new to it but I wont swear it will ever happen.I do what I can and sadly it is limited. Got any ideas?
I test all kinds of stuff. I install like crazy and if I find something I can truly reproduce and that hasn’t been reported already then I send notice to the proper person. I don’t rant and rave about the bugs I find or anything. Sadly, I dont find much to complain about. Unlike some others.
I pay for lots of stuff. Anything I want or need that is a reasonable cost. No I do not pay for something (usually) if there is a no-cost version and a for-cost version whent he no-cost version suites me just fine. That being said I usually contribute a few dollars to whichever distro I truly USE and not just try out.
I will contribute a -1 for your post since you are attacking me personally.
“You know me so well, already. ”
Yes , your nothing special , sorry.
“I WAS speaking of freedom and not price”
So was I , but the fact that freedom come at a real price is lost on people like you 😉
“I cant … but thats about it. ”
You do know your previous text is still visible and readable :
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=15207&comment_id=143706
I just hope they hurry and put the FREE in FREESPIRE!
Until then they have just rolled out a different linspire IMO.
When I see them offering a truly “free” distro is when I will be interested and I will feel like they are really trying to be more than a commercial distro.
BTW Leecher use things , they just dont contribute , they dont pay for anything and they dont test anything and give report on it. I forgot they wine a lot but never do anything to change what they complain about.
“I didn’t say anything was wrong with being a commercial distro.”
You really did not say much.
“But if all … freespire project was there?”
If you dont understand the why there was a need , I dont think the exact reason would be of much of help to you.
“And there is … distro also. ”
Wich is the problem Linspire had and still as.
“dont contribute … is limited. Got any ideas? ”
Join Freespire , make your contribution part of it and make Freespire the best Free distribution it can be … Instead of starting Debian project 800 000 994.
“I test all … complain about. Unlike some others. ”
You did this for freespire ?
“I pay for lots … not just try out. ”
Too bad not everyone is like you , distribution would be rich if everyone did the same.
I might have been too strong on the categorization based on your previous post and I apologize for it , no its nothing personnal , I am annoying and insulting to everyone equally 😉
For me the simple fact that Linspire as a free version is a great victory in itself , and that they are aiming at being developped in a more open way is great too , and I think we should reward and encourage them by testing and helping them be more free instead of demanding that they be fully free before supporting them.
In Linspire case its a great effort on there part.
Hey, I take offense at that! Actually I contribute mostly to Linux in general by helping out new people, or by converting Windows users. I gave Freespire a look last night, with the exception that it uses KDE, I liked it. It was overall a good experience. Definitely something that is very user friendly and easy to install. If you’d like, you can see how many posts I have on the Ubuntu forums if you still think I’m a leech, not to mention that I also wrote a great howto on Neverwinter Nights, that many people have found useful.
Actually I know you weren’t talking to me anyhow, just thought it was funny
Its no different then Fedora vs RH..
I don’t get it, no one complains to pay for 6months of support for an os, but to buy the Os, now that’s a problem?
No do I. I don’t see how Linspire is any different then Xandros. On top of that now Xandros is making you use license keys like Windows. Its crazy! But no one is calling them out on it. But soon as you say Linspire its like calling someone a crackhead, you looking at them different.
So they sell Linspire (Really it’s the OS and Support)
Maybe I am blind but I am not seeing anything different between what Linspire does and what any other paid version of Linux does.
Interesting read:
http://forum.freespire.org/showthread.php?t=122&page=2
In my opinion Rasbelin has valid points (he’s started posting at the bottom)
My intension with this is to What to do you think? No flame or that kind
This guy’s a nut. That’s what I think. At the core, he has valid points with which I agree. But he went about it all wrong, and he got the response he deserved.
Linspire has a vision that clearly has wide appeal, and it’s a vision that’s shared by a significant portion of the free software development community at large. They won’t play well to the idealists, but believe it or not, these people spend more time arguing principles than developing code. Time and time again, the people who really work on the code that makes the free software systems great express that they are more aligned with the practical side of FOSS than the political side.
Now, the root of the argument against Linspire and its arrangment with Freespire concerns their track record with regard to contributing useful work back to the broader community. Sure, they have made investments such as the one with Codeweavers, but they didn’t do the development, they just gave a commercial project some more money. Until Linspire proves that they can _develop_ FOSS software that’s useful to the free software community, there’s no reason for the community to develop for Linspire. Red Hat’s develops RPM, DBUS, and contributes to countless other projects; Novell develops Mono, Beagle, and more; Canonical drives the GNOME Project and ships CDs around the world for free… Linspire develops CNR, which, I dare say, is useful to nobody.
You see, I have absolutely no problem with Linspire going at in on their own as a commercial Linux vendor whose unique features are mostly proprietary. In fact, they’ve already achieved some modest success at this, and if they get their act together, they’ll win a lot more contracts. But there’s no way that the community is going to help them do this. Linspire could potentially serve the Desktop Linux market very nicely, but they don’t serve the needs of the community, and I doubt they ever will.
“If Freespire is the succeed,” someone posted on this forum thread, “it needs to be different from Linspire.” Yes, but that’s not the core of the matter. The truth is, there’s no way that Freespire is going to succeed at the moment. It simply isn’t the right time. Before Linspire can get a community project off the ground, it needs to put a few dozen developers from real community-oriented free software projects on the payroll. They need to invest in the development of free software in order to reap the rewards. At even at this, they need to overcome their reputation from their previous missteps by rubbing their contributions in the face of the community.
I know Kevin’s listening. Please take this to heart. It’s best for your company, and it’s best for free software in general.
Butters, I will respectfully have to disagree. You claim they have not developed any useful software for the community. I think it is hard to define useful. I would say the features offered in hot words and Lsongs are extremely useful.
As far as the timing, I think the timing is right, but only time will tell which of us is correct on that score. 😉
BTW, there was no trap into any license argument in an earlier statement. My sentence was exactly what it was a nothing more.
Cheers.
PS I am open to offline discussion with you in a respectful fashion. Too much posturing in the public forum. =)
Until Linspire proves that they can _develop_ FOSS software that’s useful to the free software community, there’s no reason for the community to develop for Linspire.
Nvu, Lsongs and Lphoto are Linspire open source projects, besides the other many projects others have started that we contribute to. Other distros use these programs, in fact, I noticed Debian just added Lphoto.
http://linspire.com/opensource
Kevin
“Nvu, Lsongs and Lphoto are Linspire open source projects”
You just summed up your main problem , they are *Linspire projects*. They are not the community projects , maintained and manned by/with the help of Linspire.
“besides the other many projects others have started that we contribute to.”
Others have full time developper who contribute to the main projects who in turn improve there distribution.
“Other distros use these programs”
You never stopped and asked yourself why not everyone else …
“in fact, I noticed Debian just added Lphoto.”
Because linspire/Frespire is not based on Debian ( sarcasm ) … It should have been there since Lphoto 1 was in beta.
Commercially Lphoto is a total failure , when it should be one of the many flagship possibilities bread making Linspire as.
http://www.apple.com/ilife/iphoto/
http://picasa.google.com/
http://www.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Graphics/Image_Catalog…
First thing that come to mind is get your picture printed professionnaly by one of your partner at a very interesting price.
Just thinking out loud.
Have been working with Freespire since it became available yesterday, and it looks to be an excellent distro, particularly for the migrating Windows user. With the expiration of support for Win98, it couldn’t come at a better time for those users wishing to replace that OS with something highly usable and more secure.
I’ve encountered very few bugs, and have already adopted Freespire as the only OS on one machine, and will be dual booting with Win XP on another. Although the Linspire folks don’t recommend Freespire beta for production use, I already feel comfortable depending on it.
The Linspire/Freespire team deserve a hand of applause for a job well done. Attractive interface, nice bundle of supporting apps. Supports both CNR and apt-get. My wireless works great out of the box, and so does my nVidia GF6600 card (glxgears = 4139 fps). A distro like this can only help to spread the use of Linux on the desktop.
I’ve tried them all: Mandriva, Xandros, SUSE, Red Hat, etc. Each of them has something great to offer, and each is aimed at a different market of users. But Freespire is the best out-of-box experience for home users, IMHO.
Well, looks like the cat’s out of the bag. =)
I wanted to respond to a few of the comments…
I don’t doubt that linspire is willing to work with the community, but I wonder how many in the community have a desire to work with freespire.
Linspire has a long history of working with open source projects. http://linspire.com/opensource Everything we do has ALWAYS been open sourced with the one exception being the CNR client, and even that we’re now open sourcing. We started and fund important projects like Nvu, Lphoto and Lsongs. We fund Mozilla, ReiserFS, KDE, GAIM, Kopete, and many more. Every piece of code we write on all these projects is open and contributed back. Linspire also has one of the largest and most active “communities” already, so I’m not sure why Freespire would be any different. I’ve got to believe I’m the most accessible and open CEO of any major Linux distro. You can find literally thousands of my posts on the net. Anyone is welcome to email me. I’d say we try pretty hard to not only work with the community, but be an important part of it.
While some users might appreciate the built-in support for W32Codecs and the like, others see it as a betrayal of OSS and Free Software in general.
We have a weekly blog at Linspire called the Linspire Letter. It goes out to about a half million subscribers each week. At the end of each blog, people can vote if they agree or disagree with the message that week. Agreement ranges from a low 42.9% agreeing, to the highest agreement of 94.3%. If you take a look at the results of these blogs here: http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_report.php?sort=agree&ord=d… you might be surprised to see the highest level of agreement was for my piece called Freespire: The “Hybrid” OS. Yes, as with anything, you can’t please all the people all the time, but it would appear the idea of letting FOSS and all other software play nicely together is an idea that most people seem to like. All we’re saying with Freespire is that users should be free to decide what software runs on their computer, no restrictions. Being beholden to the “God of Open Source” can be just as restrictive as being chained to the Microsoft monopoly. We believe in total freedom on our computers, beholden only to our personal preferences. People can choose to run Freespire without ANY proprietary software if they wish, or they can mix in nVidia drivers, mp3 support, DVD playback, etc. It’s up to them. Not you. Not me. The user.
I would not be surprised if this announcement hits the Distro Watch Weekly Newsletter.
Who knows. Maybe that was my real plan all along. 😉
One should really check out the Freespire site and Wiki before coming to any conclusions.
Thank you. That’s all I’d ask as well.
I am not a legal expert but didn’t the act of bundling proprietary nvidia card drivers land another distribution into trouble some time back?
Everything we include is legally licensed for use and distribution in this way.
I just hope they hurry and put the FREE in FREESPIRE!
Until then they have just rolled out a different linspire IMO. When I see them offering a truly “free” distro is when I will be interested and I will feel like they are really trying to be more than a commercial distro.
There will be two versions of Freespire, always made available for free (no cost) to download. The first is the regular, complete version with the proprietary bits tossed in, and the Freespire OSS Edition which uses only 100% open source software. We let the user decide. The OSS Edition will be available to download this week.
Kevin Carmony
CEO, Linspire
“If you take a look at the results of these blogs here: http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_report.php?sort=agree&o… you might be surprised to see the highest level of agreement was for my piece called Freespire: The “Hybrid” OS. Yes, as with anything, you can’t please all the people all the time, but it would appear the idea of letting FOSS and all other software play nicely together is an idea that most people seem to like.”
What result would you expect to see on a linspire forum, and users receiving the linspire letter? I am pretty sure if I stick a poll on a can of coke about which soda is best then I will get a obvious answer. Nice try though.
What result would you expect to see on a linspire forum, and users receiving the linspire letter? I am pretty sure if I stick a poll on a can of coke about which soda is best then I will get a obvious answer. Nice try though.
The Linspire Letter goes to nearly a half million readers, many who are not Linspire users. If your theory were correct, then ALL the Linspire Letters would have such ratings, but as you can clearly see, they go as low as 42.9% agreement. It’s pretty clear the reader base for the Linspire Letter has no problem voicing their disagreement with something we write, but on this point, they clearly feel we’re on the right track. Funny how most people tend to agree with the idea of having more freedom.
I don’t like anyone telling me what I can or can’t have on my computer…Microsoft OR anyone else. It should be my choice, and on your computer, it should be yours.
Kevin
Edited 2006-07-17 08:08
A half a million huh. So how many vote on your agree/disagree poll then? No the fact is that you are skewing my theory. When it comes to other things even linspire users may not agree but when it comes to something they obviously already agree with then they are pretty quick to agree. I am sure it is more that respond to your letters than just linspire users but most of those responding would be linspire or another commercial OS user and/or at the very least would be someone receptive to the idea of what linspire is doing or else why would they sign up for the linspire letter in the first place?
I am not saying the thought that a lot of people out there WANT a “hybrid os” I am just saying your proof is actually VERY week.
I already get the feeling I am a second class citizen in your eyes because I am one of those that want the “free” version. You seem to want people to agree with you that a “hybrid os” is a good thing and yet you cannot agree that a truly “free” os is a good thing also. So if you cant agree with me, I wont agree with you…
I think having a totally free version IS a great thing. Linux has a zillion of ’em, and yes, that’s great. I also think having Mac available is great. I think having Windows available is great, because I would never take that choice away from those who want it.
I think the more choices users have the better. I wouldn’t restrict any choice from anyone. I’m not about leading the world from one choice to only one, different choice. I believe we need more choices, not less. I don’t believe the only way I can get people to accept a new choice is by limiting their previous choices. I don’t want people to use Linspire or Freespire…I want people to use the software that is right for them.
Kevin
Edited 2006-07-17 08:35
Anyone here tried this under parallels?
It is hard for me to agree with Rasbelin for many reasons. His first paragraph is nothing more than the regurgitation of the sentiments of Bruce Perrens when RedHat first released the Fedora Core project.
Yeah, RedHat and Novelle and Linspire benefit from the work of the community that surrounds Fedora, OpenSuse, and Freespire. The same is true of Sun Microsytems receiving benefit from OpenOffice. My question would have to be, so what? I hear no vilification of Sun for offering OOo.
In his second paragraph he goes on to state all the many reasons they will not get community people involved in the project. Mostly the old root argument is repeated a few times. It is hard for me to take that seriously when the Freespire Leadership consists of men like Ian Murdoch-the very founder of Debian. It is Debian’s definitions that the OSI bases much of their structure on. Jono Bacon, one of the finest Linux writers the Uk has to offer and true defender of freedom of code in many of his writings in magazines like Linux Format (A sponsor of the FSF). Andrew Betts, a card carrying member of the FSF and the one who first brought the term Freespire into the public eye. I could go on, the point is, these are the people who are the moral compass of Freespire and I would be hard pressed to believe that Ian Murdoch is easily duped, a member of the evil empire, or one that people in the community who are willing to have an open mind are not willing to follow or at least hear out.
Third paragraph, he claims Freespire acts in bad faith to the community, does not contribute, does not honor the GPL, etc etc etc. This does not gel with an organization that is a primary sponsor of Mozilla, Firefox, KDE League, WINE, and many more ( http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_license.php#ope ). They are on record for having given the code back for their many improvements and tweaks to the web browser and other application. Imagine, a company that has yet to post a profit donating millions of dollars to open source projects and giving code back? This is not the behavior of the Sheriff of Nottingham. As far as not being in compliance with the GPL, if they were not, the FSF would have had a legal team on them like flies on poop. RMS is not exactly the biggest fan of Linspire, but cannot deny they are in compliance, Linspire has been in communication with the FSF in that regard.
4th paragraph does admit Linspire gives money to key projects, but insists it’s motives are a buy off. Prove it. This is an accusation with no proof. Then, back to the root argument and accusation of preserving the windows like mentality as opposed to the Linux way, there seems to be one Linux method of use which is odd considering all the distros, shells, gui’s, and we still have not yet figures out if a real guru uses vi or emacs ;-).
I could go on, but I am getting tired.
This is about choice. There are many that are in the FSF camp and that is fine. There are distros suited to your tastes and appeal. There are other distros like Mepis and Freespire that believe it is acceptable to have freedom of choice and that the amalgamation of proprietary and free software does not necessarily make you a bad citizen.
Freespire has a vision and a road map on their WIKI. the Leadership board was hand picked, the Community Board was elected by the members of the forum and the mail lists, and the technology board will be formed by it’s chair in due time per the road map.
It is easy to be cynical and accusatory, especially with years of FUD and misinformation. It takes true grit to not only look into the facts, but to also have tolerance and respect for differing philosophies.
Edited 2006-07-17 03:16
We all like to point to Firefox and OpenOffice.org as shining examples of FOSS, but where would Firefox be without the millions Netscape (and later AOL) poured into Mozilla, and where would OpenOffice be without the millions Sun has poured into it?
Novell, Red Hat, Sun, Linspire, and many other commercial companies need FOSS to get better, so we invest in it. If these companies are successful (other than Red Hat, there aren’t too many examples of “profitable” Linux companies, or companies that have profitable Linux operations), they will be in a position to continue to support Linux and FOSS.
As with regular communities (cities), they thrive or die based on not only the people who live in those cities, but also the economic vitality of those communities. Most of us like living in places with healthy economies, because everything elevates and gets better (roads, schools, etc.). FOSS communities are no different. How nice do you think the roads and school would be in an economically depressed area? Or an area void of commerce? Linux is no different.
The key is that all these companies, for the most part, embrace the open nature of FOSS, so they are able to give back to it, without taking anything away from it that harms it.
Kevin
I highly suggest visiting the Freespire Wiki ( http://wiki.freespire.org ) and the Freespire Forums ( http://forum.freespire.org ) prior to making any “presumptions” about the Freespire project.
I must also re-iterate what Kevin already discussed –
Many people have this idea that anything Linspire touches is “Evil” and should be avoided. Remember that when your using the newest KDE, chatting with Kopete, burning a CD with K3B, when your browsing for desktop enhancements on kde-look.org, using the ReiserFS, or browsing the web with Firefox that Linspire has contributed millions of dollars to help those projects with expenses and has therefore enhanced your Linux experience.
Linspire always gives back its source code (excluding CNR – but, that is going opensource soon), and that source code is always available from their site.
Freespire will be an excellent distro because the people working behind it are extremely intelligent, experienced, and dedicated to their work. Linspire has always displayed some of the best PR and Support that I have seen from any corporation. Many of Linspire’s employees frequent the Linspire & Freespire forums. Most notably, Kevin Carmony, Linspire’s CEO is always just an email away…its not like your just sending out a message, and then hoping for a reply that never shows up like it is with most other companies, With Linspire you will always get a response.
I guess what attracts me most to Linspire/Freespire is the community and how personally the company interacts with its community. Linspire/Freespire gets rid of the “I Am The Almighty Linux Guru – Thou Noobs Shall Bow Before My Geekness” attitude, and is instead a place for learning and making progress instead of fighting distro wars and battles over gnome/kde.
(Alright – there are some debates about gnome/kde, etc – but, it doesnt take up 1/2 of the posts like it is in other forums.)
Edited 2006-07-17 03:56
There are many who have different views on freedom. I respect he FSF and love the gift we have of the GPL. Some do fear that the GPL3 may restrict freedoms in the name of freedom. Be it a correct fear or an over reaction-only time will tell. We do have the right to start asking the deeper questions. I do not believe use of proprietary software on the same platform as free software makes one a bad citizen. RMS allowed the C Compiler to be used on proprietary Unix systems for decades. Firefox is used blatently on Windows machines and we all high five each other when a community or business replaces MS Office with OOo. It is a work in progress and is in need of correction in the grammar and syntax; but here is the first draft of an essay I am working on that touches on this and is inspired by the freedom of choice Freespire is reaching for.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=858…
Are they only planning of releasing an ISO or are they going to open the repositores to public so people can install minimal and grab rest off apt.
I will try it once such repositores are up!
Are they only planning of releasing an ISO or are they going to open the repositores to public so people can install minimal and grab rest off apt.
We already do this.
I will try it once such repositores are up!
You already can, no need to wait.
Kevin
I think you missed the part about “install minimal” though.
The freespire repository is up and running but it appears fairly limited and some stuff is broken and you can not mix it with a debian repo.
I wonder what would happen if you installed a base of debian, then used the freespire repos?
This will not work well with this Beta. It will work much better on subsequent releases.
David Fox
Link please?
I have searched on your Wiki and website without any luck.
http://ftp.ussg.iu.edu/linux/freespire/ only has the ISO.
Are they only embedded in your APT or can we browse them publicly?
The server is http://apt.freespire.org
I must admit, I find it incredible that the head of Linspire himself visits forums like these to address people’s concerns and questions directly and promptly – very impressed by that!
I’m also intrigued to see if the “community” will get behind this “Freespire” effort. It’s worked for Red Hat / Fedora and Suse so far.
I think the best way for a distro to thrive these days is to offer choices to fit every need. Some don’t mind distros which include proprietary code and will even pay money for these if they are guaranteed to “just work” out of the box as a result. Others don’t mind proprietary code included but don’t want to pay money for the product. Still others want a free product in all respects, both in financial cost terms and code wise. Still others want to “try before they buy” and need Live CDs, etc. And still others would use the product if only they could go in and fix that one annoying bug or feature that otherwise stops them from using the product.
I believe Linspire is making a good move by seeking to reach out to and satisfy all these different groups and needs within the Linux community. I hope the community responds positively in turn.
Well said ,pollycat.
Kevin Carmony has thousands of posts on the Linspire forums, hundreds on the Ubuntu forums and other places.
I have even seen him answer basic how to questions on the mail lists for newbies.
I think the advantage freespire and linspire have is the friendliness of the community. It is in my opinion that many of the people who attack Linspire are also the ones who do little when newbies are under fire. Linus has the school teachers, bus drivers, and other normal folk curious, telling them to rtfm ain’t gonna cut it anymore…being an old boys club does not work anymore.
There is a new face to Linux and Linspire and Freespire get it.
Yes, I find the Linspire forums very friendly, helpful and welcoming too, CaptainTux
Edited 2006-07-17 07:44
I must admit, I find it incredible that the head of Linspire himself visits forums like these to address people’s concerns and questions directly and promptly”
Kevin Carmony’s presence has been noted by many. The comments I’ve seen are mostly positive regarding this.
Normally, whenever a CEO or company official is in the public eye it’s to be reactive to adverse situation. Not so, it seems, with Linspire & Kevin Carmony. He seems to always be proactive instead of reactive.
This is a good thing as it keep Linspire and their folks ‘grounded’ and approachable to the various ‘Net communities & forums.
That was barely legible!
See that is one thing about you, you love to throw numbers out that dont really relate to anything and offer strange analogies. You had to be in sales and/or marketing for a long time.
Since you are using the half a million number then could you please tell us how many users normally vote on those polls. You seem to be implying that the half a million is a important figure so please tell us how many of those actually vote on the polls.
You are actually skewing my theory. My theory isnt that a linspire user will always agree with you. My theory is that anyone receieving the linspire letter AND voting on that poll is not likely to disagree in this instance. They may disagree about something else but anyone signed up for a letter from linspire AND that bothers to vote on a linspire poll has to be somewhat receptive to what the company stands for. I am sure it is more that respond to your letters than just linspire users but most of those responding would be linspire users or another commercial OS user and/or at the very least would be someone receptive to the idea of what linspire is doing or else why would they sign up for the linspire letter in the first place? I dont normally sign up for newsletters from groups that I totally disagree with their whole concept, do you?
I am not saying you are wrong about a lot of people wanting a “hybrid os” I am just saying your proof is actually VERY weak. I use to think otherwise but now I realize that most do not care about freedoms or that by choosing something they are actually choosing to not have a choice in the future. Most users out there just want things to work and do not care about anything else. I have been to enough forums to know that most people dont care about the thought behind the software. I on the other hand DO want things to work but I DO care about how that is implemented and provided.
As stated, I already get the feeling I am a second class citizen in your eyes as well as others because I am one of those that want the “free” version. You seem to want people to agree with you that a “hybrid os” is a good thing and yet you cannot agree that a truly “free” os is a good thing also. So if you cant agree with me, I wont agree with you…
The number of votes is clearly displayed next to each Linspire Letter listed on the link I used in my post.
Kevin
458 responded to that poll which is pretty far from a half a million and either way doesnt reflect on what I was sayingor what you were saying.
As stated earlier, I dont think you are wrong about a lot of users just wanting a “hybrid os” but that poll in no way reflects….well anything really. Put it in the new york times and see what response you get then I will glady concede you reached a fair test group.
Why on earth are you against more choices?
You’re nitpicking about a vote not being fair or representative or something as if that actually matters.
What you are in effect arguing is that Open Source or Free Software is about choice. Choice to choose the option given to you and no other.
Otherwise why are you kicking up such a stink about this?
choice choice choice choice choice choice choice
There plenty of choice. All looks the same doesnt it. That is the proprietary way of offering choice.
But YOU are welcome to that type choice. I am not knocking that, can I get the same courtesy for wanting my free?
I am not knocking anything. I am saying that until I see the “free” version the I have trouble believing that linspire is trying to be different. Until they show me something different then I cannot imagine they are different. So far the only ONLY thing they have changed really is the graphics, partitioner, and the name (again). They have a “hybrid os” it is called linspire, whats the point in yet another “hybrid os” so the big difference will appear when they have a truly free distro until then everyone could of just stayed over at linspire, they could of gave out a coupon code, and threw up a wiki.
So you give a speech to an audience of hundreds of thousands, and after your speech, 458 people take the time to come up to you and say hi afterwards. 431 (94%) of those people said, “Wow, great talk. I really liked what you had to say!,” you’d think to yourself, “Yea, but I bet everyone else hated it.” 😉
I think we all got your point. You think 458 does not a sample make. Got it.
Kevin
If the speech is about male pattern baldness and you gave the speech at the clinic for male baldness and they paid to be there and/or support the clinic with donation. Then if 94% of those coming up to you afterwards were men with male pattern baldness or men worried about male pattern baldness saying your speech sounded really good and they agree and then if you use that as a indicator as to what the whole group thinks then yea that is a bad sample..
🙂
Don’t get me wrong. I think freespire is a step in the right direction, I just hope it is more than a step it is also your heart or should I say Linspires heart?
(that doesnt make any sense does it)
I think you took a good step, I hope you continue to move in this direction. I hope you realize this can be a great benefit to the company if you will see it thru and truly move in this direction.
Sorry if I am a bit skeptical but I wont believe a bit of it until I see a “free” version and that the “free” version isn’t treated like some two-bit hunk of junk that is only used as a tease to get people on the proprietary and the CNR subscriptions.
Of course I would like to not be banned at the linspire forums also since I have no idea why I am banned.
Kernel panic, couldn’t mount the virtual SCSI disk.
Maybe rushing the release wasn’t the best idea around. Will now try to report it somewhere on their website…
Is freespire interesting now that there is a true desktop linux: SuSE 10.2.
I am pretty impressed with Freespire. I find it actually much better just from using it for 30 minutes then Linspire 5.
Just what I see:
I love the fact that I have full access to CNR (As a full Linspire customer)
Freespire is much faster then I thought it would be, boots faster, loads apps faster by default then I expected (Pleasant surprise!)
They put in Firefox and Thunderbird (While Linspire still uses Mozilla and Mozilla mail by default)
It installs faster.
They actually for the user (Without looking like they are making you do it) to make a regular log in account and using that by default. Also they made some options now open to the regular user account (like being able to change your IP settings)
They changed the colors and icons which to me now look better.
Using newer version of KDE (I think) then in Linspire 5
All in all I like it. I find it pretty tight, and as I said quick. Faster then Ubuntu, Xandros and Suse Enterprise 10 desktop, out the box on the same machine.
At this rate I may actually go back to using Linspire/Freespire. My mom, grand mother, girlfriend and Brother use Linspire 5 and are happy with it. My girlfriend loves to brag that she has never had a single problem with her Linspire machine. Once I set it up it has never crashed, gotten a virus, worm and the number one thing! NO SPYWARE!
Actually, I am confused as to how they have now set up the primary account?
Is it root (Well I can’t change some files owned by root in folders like etc)
But I can do some root tasks in KDE
There is an admin icon on the log in screen and then the user name you create. Not sure how to log in as admin if the primary user is not admin.
Strange.
Never mind, figured it out I think.
Looks like by default root is disabled.
If you log in as the regular user and then open the user manager, root is disabled.
Looks like as a regular user you can enable root from the user manager.
Not sure how secure this is, but it’s better then starting out as root!
Jack Malmostoso : Its Beta 1, what do you expect? For some people your going to get errors.
deanlinkous: What things are you doing to help the community?
Linspire is doing a great thing here with Freespire. I don’t see how anyone can complain about it. I find it funny when the Linux die-hards really get up on their high horses… If linux is about choice go ahead use something else, hige posts about the number of people voting in a poll? WTF!
I notice a great many of these posts also have the same nym on the the LOS forums (e.g. pollycat and CaptainTux). Did Kevin bring the rest of the horde with him?
I notice a great many of these posts also have the same nym on the the LOS forums (e.g. pollycat and CaptainTux). Did Kevin bring the rest of the horde with him?
Nope, we heard there was a party about the birth of our baby and wanted to see what all the fuss was about. ;-). Many of the names you see here are part of the Freespire and the Linspire forum.
Many of us have been with the Freespire forums and mail lists since it was announced. We helped form the community and let the Leadership Board know what we want from a Linux. This is our distro as much as it is his.
Did he encourage us to make our opinions and thoughts known? Yes. Would we have done so anyway? Yes.
Cheers
That is correct, Freespire does not set up a root login account by default.
You can find more info here: http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Creating_a_Root_Login_Account
Kevin
Edited 2006-07-17 14:23
Pretty sweet! Love the new log in screen etc. And like I have been saying, man this is fast! I am impressed!
I dont want to sound so negative. I am very happy you’ll are going this route and I HOPE it continues down the free road.
So far I AM impressed with what I see. Now to roll out a free version. Get in sync with a debian pool, or get a good snapshot and not change it so much. Increase the security updates and you got one HELL of a linux! Very impressed so far and this is only the first beta. That being said I never belive what a company or even a person says only what they do, so actions are the indicator. 
Apparently they use sudo like ubuntu does. so to need a root command:
sudo …command…
to open konqueror as root:
alt+f2
type: kdesu konqueror
(well ok that’s how it works in kubuntu, but I assume it’s the same in freespire now).
Pretty sweet! Listening to the community already! I like that!
This is beginning to sound a whole lot like an Amway local get-together I dropped in on when a friend asked me to “investigate my own business,” where the only folks who showed up were Amway distributors themselves.
Well, at 10:00pm CDT on Friday, I posted a question about enabling the root account. Within minutes (less than half an hour), I had several return posts and three private email messages showing me exactly what I wanted.
I take that as good.
David
I was impressed to see the CEO of a Linux disto personally responding to posts here. That is something you rarely see nowadays, regardless of company size. For that reason alone (and possibly other reasons ;P ), I’m going to download and try Freespire.
I’m currently dual-booting between Windows XP Home (came with the Dell laptop) and Ubuntu 6.06. The reason why I often find myself booting Windows is because of Ubuntu’s inability to play certain proprietary audio/video formats. (Of course, I realize that it’s not Ubuntu’s inability, but mine. You get the point though.) If Freespire can reduce my uptime in Windows by making the audio/video playback Just Work, I see no reason to stay with Ubuntu, although I will be sure to choose Gnome over KDE if there is such an option in the Freespire installer.
KDE is the GDM in Linspire.
I used apt-get to load GNOME, which runs just fine.
David
Did you have to add a repository to get access to gnome on Freespire?
And how does it look and feel. The one thing I like about Ubuntu’s gnome and Suse enterprise Gnome is both are nice changes from the default gnome setup.
Thanks. 🙂
I was impressed to see the CEO of a Linux disto personally responding to posts here. That is something you rarely see nowadays, regardless of company size. For that reason alone (and possibly other reasons ;P ), I’m going to download and try Freespire.
Great. Please let me know what you think.
I’m currently dual-booting between Windows XP Home (came with the Dell laptop) and Ubuntu 6.06. The reason why I often find myself booting Windows is because of Ubuntu’s inability to play certain proprietary audio/video formats.
Sounds like the regular version of Freespire might be just right for you then.
…although I will be sure to choose Gnome over KDE if there is such an option in the Freespire installer.
By default Linspire is KDE, and most of our attention and polishing is there, but you can certainly use apt or cnr to get the GNOME GDM.
Kevin
I’ve noted that some people ‘seem’ to be wanting Freespire to fail by their comments and tone. There have been accusations that Linspire (and Freespire, by default) give little to nothing back to OSS, communities. There have been many other comments and such, as well.
Many members of both Linspire and Freespire have surfaced to politely and courteously answer any & all issues since this topic came to light here on OSNews.com. This is just a sample of the people behind this project and the talent that helped put Freespire together.
In my opinion, this initial Beta release of Freespire is, “production quality.” That’s right – production quality. I invite any who haven’t tried Freespire to please do so. You’re in for a pleasant surprise.
With this, know that these folks have plans to continually improve Freespire. This will have a positive effect on Linspire and Linux as a whole. Why? As they improve Freespire, all improvements based on OSS Code will be relased back to the OSS community (with the sole excption of closed-soure apps such as CNR).
Even if someone dowsn’t like, or chooses not to run/use Freespire, the improvements they initiate & build on just may be part of their Linux distro not too far down the line.
” (with the sole excption of closed-soure apps such as CNR)”
I just wanted to clarify – CNR will also be open sourced soon.
They’ve uploaded an appliance at vmware of Freespire Beta 1, a pre-built virtual server.
http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/directory/502