Home > Zeta > Magnussoft, Zeta Development Team Part Ways Magnussoft, Zeta Development Team Part Ways Submitted by alexorizor 2007-03-23 Zeta 92 Comments Bernd Korz has announced that the Zeta development team and Magnussoft are parting ways [German]. The team and Bernd will continue to develop Zeta, and the service pack (Zeta v1.51) will still be released in the coming weeks. About The Author Thom Holwerda Follow me on Mastodon @firstname.lastname@example.org 92 Comments 2007-03-23 6:08 pm ormandj Par for course! Bernd is slime, and it seems everybody involved with Zeta is scum. I can’t believe the entire development team can continue on, *knowing* what a sham their operation is. I wonder if there will now be a third company to rip people off? 2007-03-23 6:28 pm merkoth I wish I could mod you even more negative. This is sad, I always liked BeOS. Never really liked Zeta, but still, I always felt that it kept the BeOS spirit alive. Sometimes this project looks doomed :S 2007-03-23 6:36 pm ormandj You can mod me as negative as you like, I posted *knowing* the zeta-ites would attack. That said, I fully support and LOVE the Haiku project. I used BeOS for a number of years, as well. I used to go to BUG meetings in Austin. I’m probably one of the more vocal Haiku supporters around. I do NOT love the Zeta crew, and Bernd, because of their questionable legality, shady business practices, and so forth. Every time I turn around they are starting/joining a new company, and continuing to use questionable practices to advertise/sell Zeta. I’ve seen it marketed as a complete desktop replacement for windows users. It’s not, not even close. In fact, I believe they were shoveling copies out the door by television advertisements aimed at “normal” people. Who in their right mind, with ANY sort of conscious, could do that? No personal attacks in this post, so I don’t expect to be modded down (disagreement with opinions isn’t justification for negative moderation.) It’s something that needed to be said, however, and I know a lot of people agree with me. The first post I made was just a much more “barbaric” way of saying the same thing. 2007-03-23 7:33 pm SReilly I feel exactly the same. I haven’t even downloaded a pirated copy of Zeta to test out in case I am actually tempted to buy it. To begin with, I gave them (the Zeta team) every benefit of the doubt and even looked into supporting them, albeit non financial support(I was broke at the time), but just by watching they’re greedy tactics, I soon changed my mind. 2007-03-23 9:48 pm Anonymous Penguin “I haven’t even downloaded a pirated copy of Zeta to test out in case I am actually tempted to buy it.” Exactly. When people aren’t even interested in creating or downloading a torrent of something, that is a really bad, bad sign. It means that people do not even want it for free. 2007-03-23 9:57 pm Yomama Thats correct. I had several opportunities to download Zeta. No thank you. I’m rather interested in Haiku and wish them all the best to succeed. If Zeta wants to get this OS adopted they need to re-think on how they approach the market. 2007-03-23 8:54 pm El-Al the ‘barbaric’ statement you made just happens to denigrate the work and reputation of many highly respected BeOS developers who work/have worked on Zeta and are also active on the Haiku project. You should maybe be more careful about your choice of words before you go disparaging the project you also claim to ‘LOVE’ 2007-03-23 9:38 pm ormandj Those developers ought to reconsider what project they work on. Yes, I’m sure there are some talented people there, but their morality should “kick in” and they should quit working for a person/company that has such questionable ethics. My comment did not address people who are not currently involved with Zeta, so “past” developers are not being insulting/slammed in any way. Here’s a (VERY) exaggerated example of the same kind of thing. There were LOTS of smart/good Nazis. Most of them were ignorant of what was really going on. However, they all had a duty (once they realized the evilness) to stop doing what they were doing. Unfortunately, they did not, hence we had a war – in which many (innocent) died and a country was reduced to shambles, all needlessly. Developers working under Bernd can claim “ignorance” to a point, but if they don’t know by now how terribly things have been run and the kind of ethically questionable ways Zeta has been pushed, not to mention the questionable legality of the whole operation – then they must be living under a rock. They *should* know better, and they *should* stop dealing with such a terribly run organization/person. As I said, I’m sure there are bright folks doing development for Zeta. They ought to find a good company to work for (doing whatever), get better paying/far more stable jobs, and work with Haiku (as it’s quite OBVIOUSLY the future direction of BeOS – not Zeta.) Obviously I am not in a position to tell them what to do – but I am in a position to judge them based on MY moral values/ethical standards, based on what they choose to do. Continuing to work for Bernd/participate in his scams/etc puts them in the “poopoo” bin as far as I’m concerned. You are, of course, free to believe as you like. Just as I am. Edited 2007-03-23 21:39 2007-03-23 9:43 pm Thom Holwerda Let me make VERY clear that on the OSNews comments’ sections, absolutely NO comparison will EVER be drawn between person/company/product xyz and the Nazis/3e Reich, or whatever. This is OUT OF LINE, no matter how innocent the comparison may be. End of story. 2007-03-23 11:42 pm ormandj Let me make VERY clear that on the OSNews comments’ sections, absolutely NO comparison will EVER be drawn between person/company/product xyz and the Nazis/3e Reich, or whatever. This is OUT OF LINE, no matter how innocent the comparison may be. End of story. History teaches lessons quite well. You have your opinions, I have mine. I don’t “ignore” history, and when it parallels something in current times, I point it out. I used a purposefully extreme example in an attempt to highlight exactly what I intended to portray, and I’m *quite* sure it was clear to all who read it prior to the down-moderation storm. So, why don’t you define exactly what form of censorship you’d like to enforce here, and what parts of history are off limits and which are not? I’d like to be clear on what I am permitted to refer to and what I am not permitted to refer to in the future. — Now, on to the people claiming “innocent until proven guilty.” That’s true, in a COURT OF LAW. I am a consumer, he has a product. He has to prove to ME that I should spend my hard-earned money on HIS product. This isn’t a question of innocence or guilt. The guy won’t come out and say he has legal rights to the source code for goodness sake. There is NO logic/business reasoning for not coming out and saying he has legal rights to the source, UNLESS he does not – or he is operating outside the bounds of his license agreement and doesn’t want people to know it. Bernd DOES need to come out and prove to us (the consumers) his legitimacy. We’re not trying him, there is no such thing as innocent until guilty in the business world. You still wonder why yT failed? You wonder why Zeta is going nowhere? Look no further than Bernd and his insane business practices. Who knows what went on with Magnus, I’m sure some people have some interesting stories to tell. So, since Zeta is so awesome, Bernd is so awesome, and the operation is so awesome, why don’t one of the people involved with Zeta step forward and finally tell us they have full legal rights to the full source code of BeOS. Guess what? Nobody ever will. Goodbye, Zeta! Hello, Haiku! I only hope the good people who’ve done work on Zeta figure out what a crazy operation they are involved with and move their talent to Haiku, a legal and forward-thinking project – that isn’t out to screw the public, and isn’t run by somebody with the business sense of roadkill. 2007-03-24 12:02 am melkor So you are allowed to dictate what can and can’t be said in a nazi style yes? Hardly seems democratic to me Mr Holwerda. In some countries in Europe it might be illegal to mention the word Nazi or Third Reich, but I believe this website is not hosted in those countries, and other countries still allow certain levels of civil liberties. You would do well to allow them. I had very little respect for you prior to the above comment, I now have no respect for you whatsoever. I don’t care if I get modded down for this, it needs to be said. If you don’t like my freedom of speech, tough shit. Dave 2007-03-24 12:08 am ormandj NM, must have been caching system. Ignore this post. Edited 2007-03-24 00:08 2007-03-24 12:12 am melkor Seems to have worked, I expect to be modded down, since it is in some respects, a personal attack on Thom, well not Thom, but some of his very weird belief systems. I believe in true freedom of speech, not fettered freedom of speech that certain European countries enforce illegally on their constituents. Sure, the War was bad, I’m not supporting it, but sweeping what happened under the carpet in a forced form of forgetfullness isn’t the way to deal with it. Forbidding people to talk about it, or to refer to it, isn’t the right way of dealing with it. As to the system placing certain ‘can’t mod up’ rights on individuals, nothing surprises me in the slightest. I’ve made my feelings clear on the osnews.com modding system previously under a different user name. Dave 2007-03-24 12:53 am osterfrank > I believe in true freedom of speech, not fettered freedom of speech that > certain European countries enforce illegally on their constituents. Sure, > the War was bad, I’m not supporting it, but sweeping what happened > under the carpet in a forced form of forgetfullness isn’t the way to deal > with it. Forbidding people to talk about it, or to refer to it, isn’t the right > way of dealing with it. I don’t know where you got the idea that European countries forbid talking about the war. That’s utter nonsense. E.g. in Germany, the ONLY thing you must not do is claiming that the Holocaust hasn’t taken place. You can talk about the Holocaust as much as you want to and you’re certainly not supposed to forget about it. (Far from it!) Of course you can disagree and argue that you should not restrict the freedom of speech in any way. But please don’t spread FUD about European countries prohibiting people from talking about the war or something. 2007-03-24 1:15 am gilA Whatever you do, don’t mention the war! -Basil Fawlty Edited 2007-03-24 01:17 2007-03-24 4:50 am StephenBeDoper Hahaha, and I was just thinking to myself: “Do North Americans assume that Fawlty Towers was a documentary?” 2007-03-24 8:40 pm gilA No, but a lot of them thought Borat was a film about Kazakhstan. 2007-03-24 4:47 am StephenBeDoper The righteous indignation is hardly justified. First of all, the OP made an incredibly crass and offensive comparison and Thom was entirely justified in the way he called it. Second of all, despite your implied suggestion that only uptight Austrians/Germans are offended by comparisons to Nazism, I doubt that you’ll find acceptance of those sorts of comparisons anywhere. “Godwin’s Law” isn’t exactly a brand-new concept. 2007-03-24 5:52 am JonathanBThompson “I wouldn’t do that if I were you, Dave!” Ok, what the HAL… Let’s have a lesson involving sets/union theory and perspective to get things properly understood: 1. We are all subject to the laws of our respective countries and international laws 2. The web host used by OSNews is limits them to a subset of those laws as specified by them. 3. Users/readers of OSNews are limited to any arbitrary subset of laws/rules set forth by the owners/administrators of OSNews that are subject to the rules/laws set forth by their web host which are in turn subject to the laws of the respective country, etc. Now, if this had been a government-run site, sure, full freedom of speech (as much as allowed by the given country) would be something you could expect, but OSNews is a subset government as listed above, and I’m betting you paid exactly as much as I did in time and money and effort to provide OSNews, which limits you legally and morally to being subject to whatever arbitrary rules set forth by the powers that Be(OS) (I had to sneak that in there!) even if you don’t really like them. Do I agree with everything the people involved with OSNews say and do? NO! But it isn’t my right to whine and accuse and demand more rights, anymore than it is your right, and there’s no more legal or moral precedent that says OSNews must allow anyone to say what they want in posts here, any more than Thom has the right to go into your home and scrawl “I want to hump your cat until it screams!” on your walls and claim “Freedom of speech!” as his defense. Now, back to the thread topic: Yes, yT has sowed many seeds of reasonable doubt, but I have no proof either way that the IP is being used legally or illegaly beyond heresay, and I suspect that’s cost them quite a bit in sales, and if potential suitors to picking up the costs of developing Zeta also have as much doubt, or they have evidence that it’s illegal, that’s likely to be a deal-breaker for sane business people. But one reason I’ve not gotten Zeta yet is one piece of information I DO have is that this system I’m typing on (my main BeOS box) doesn’t work correctly under Zeta. I still remain wary of the legality question of Zeta, personally, and that’s another reason for me to pause. 2007-03-23 9:54 pm Vibe I’ve got some more questions. Bernd slid away with a piece of paper that granted some “rights” he’s been very vague to define, and the provenance of the source hasn’t been confirmed. Not only that, but Yellowtab went down after swallowing several million Euros. What is the exact wording of the contract, where did the source come from, and where did the Yellowtab money go? OS News is ways out of line with the reality of copyright law. Copyright explicity forbids any derived work (a new creation) from being distributed by a third party. While I’m sympathetic to BeOS Max, it is illegal. No grey areas. No fudging. Period. On these issues OS News journalistic and legal integrity is hazy, and no amount of shouting from Thom or fanboy style reportage can hide that. In any case, as a potential customer, I have my doubts about Zeta’s legitimacy and the owners ability to manage Zeta in a sound way that inspires personal or business confidence. Once that confidence is broken it’s up to Zeta to prove itself. Where’s the proof? 2007-03-26 10:35 pm Kancept There once was a party named “Yollo” that invested in them early on. This was right after the famed BeOS NG, and the beginning of the yT period. IIRC Yollo got some of the profits, and IP made from it for a few years thereafter- even contributing code to them. Dunno how it all went down, and noone could find said company, so it seemed like a good shill. It wasn’t listed at the German business registry thingy. Bernd has a small castle now he is remodeliing, as found on his blog. I’m guessing that’s where the money went. That and that butt-ugly car with Spliny the yT mosquito all over it. Oh yeah, that’s the second yT car, btw. http://www.berndsworld.com/ I personally hope they stop. Just pack it up and stop. 2007-03-24 4:34 am StephenBeDoper Those developers ought to reconsider what project they work on. Yes, I’m sure there are some talented people there, but their morality should “kick in” and they should quit working for a person/company that has such questionable ethics. Why would a ZETA developer go to his/herself “Oh no, ormandj does not approve! Time for change of employer.” I’m hardly the world’s largest ZETA fan, but I don’t see the point of crapping on them if you have nothing to say beyond vague indictments-by-implication. Here’s a (VERY) exaggerated example of the same kind of thing. There were LOTS of smart/good Nazis. …what the EFF? I’m going to display some restraint and not comment on the above quote, or the rest of your post, other than to mention that the phrase “jaw-droppingly sophomoric” comes to mind. And that’s the about mildest characterization I could make. If ever there were a situation where it was justified to invoke “Godwin’s Law”… 2007-03-23 9:00 pm Yomama I have to agree with you to a certain extent. I don’t think Mr. Korz is slime but it shows more and more he might not be the right person to lead this particular company to success. We know Mr’ Korz story but everybody knows there are always two sides to it. Since he run Yellowtab in the ground, had problems with developers in the past regarding compensation and anounced today he is parting ways with Magnussoft, I’m starting to believe he is a selfish individual and the company or OS won’t really go anywhere. Might be true, might not. Time will tell. 2007-03-23 9:43 pm merkoth I didn´t mod you down because you were already at -5, but I must apologize, I completely misread your comment. No offense intended and I don´t usually mod down just because I disagree with another person I think you should choose your words a bit more carefully. And I´m not a Zeta zealot! Edited 2007-03-23 21:47 UTC 2007-03-24 4:18 am StephenBeDoper You can mod me as negative as you like, I posted *knowing* the zeta-ites would attack. That’s the first time I’ve encountered that particular term. Perhaps it’s naivety, but I’ve always liked to believe that most members of the BeOS community are above devolving into “Haiku-ite vs ZETA-ite” balkanization. 2007-03-24 4:42 am Vibe That’s the first time I’ve encountered that particular term. Perhaps it’s naivety, but I’ve always liked to believe that most members of the BeOS community are above devolving into “Haiku-ite vs ZETA-ite” balkanization. It’s lacks credibility as much as emoting is a replacement for hard evidence. I’m not interested in what people claim or feel, I just want to see the questions of Zeta’s legitimacy and Bernd’s fitness to manage it answered. Crime and poor corporate governance are not things to slide by if you want to get a sound return on investment and see the product last. Until I see proof that Zeta is legitimate and it’s soundly managed, it just looks like a scheme to part gullible investors and daydreamers from their money. People won’t be told. Find out the hard way… Edited 2007-03-24 04:43 2007-03-23 6:28 pm ronaldst Will Zeta ever Be something? I guess Haiku is our only hope for the rebel alliance. 2007-03-23 6:31 pm SReilly this time. Man, does every company that attempts a BeOS release have to run into trouble? Seems to me, with BeOS Max V4, Vasper’s timing is excellent. 2007-03-24 10:20 am Moochman Kinda reminds me of what happened with AmigaOS. Haiku & AROS to the rescue! 2007-03-23 6:33 pm shykid I think Zeta’s going to have to try very hard to stay relevant once Haiku R1 is released. 2007-03-23 6:49 pm AndrewZ “I communicate today officially that there is no co-operation between me and that like nut often more. Same applies to all developers to the project ZETA by like nut often was paid and with me together on it to have worked. Since in the team did not change for anything work, we at present in same speed further. The update I to give change like published shortly. Bernd Korz “ 2007-03-23 6:54 pm jfietkau I just compared that translation with the German version, especially wondering where Magnussoft had gone and where that nut had come from. Turns out Google is trying really hard to translate everything: “Magnussoft” = “mag Nuss oft” => “like nut often” Hilarity ensues. Edited 2007-03-23 18:54 2007-03-23 6:59 pm alexorizor the future of zeta today, i officially announce that there will be no collaboration with me and magnussoft anymore. the same goes for all zeta developers who were payed by magnussoft and who were working with me. because the team itself didnt change, we continue working in the same rhythm. as i said before, the update will be published in the near future. bernd korz 2007-03-23 9:01 pm Vibe “zeta developers who were payed by magnussoft” Bernd Korz walks off with the source and all the work Magnussoft paid for, and Magnussoft is left with nothing? Uh, that’s the second time this stunt has been pulled. Going for a third, Bernd? Without proof of intellectual property ownership and source quality, he’s never getting anything out of me. I’m holding out for Haiku. Their code is legit and isn’t tainted with the smell of scam. Edited 2007-03-23 21:04 2007-03-23 9:12 pm Thom Holwerda Bernd Korz walks off with the source and all the work Magnussoft paid for, and Magnussoft is left with nothing? Please do not comment on issues you know nothing about. Magnussoft has barely paid a dime to Bernd and his team. 2007-03-23 9:17 pm Vibe Please do not comment on issues you know nothing about. Magnussoft has barely paid a dime to Bernd and his team. As I said, the intellectual property rights, source, and finance over Zeta’s life don’t look legit. Until someone can come up with hard proof it’s otherwise, perhaps, you’re the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about? It’s a legit question and I’m not just going to take your word for it. I’m not that dumb. 2007-03-23 9:46 pm Thom Holwerda As I said, the intellectual property rights, source, and finance over Zeta’s life don’t look legit. Until someone can come up with hard proof it’s otherwise, perhaps, you’re the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about? Eh, I don’t know in what country you live, but in civilised nations one is NOT guilty until proven otherwise. It is NOT Korz’s task to prove his innocence– it is YOUR task to prove his guilt. 2007-03-23 10:02 pm Vibe Eh, I don’t know in what country you live, but in civilised nations one is NOT guilty until proven otherwise. It is NOT Korz’s task to prove his innocence– it is YOUR task to prove his guilt. Sorry, buddy. As a potential customer, Bernd isn’t getting anything out of me. I suspect his intellectual property right claim, where he got the source, and where the money went. It’s up to him to prove to me that he’s on the level. Where’s the proof Thom? If you have it, show it. Not just words. Not just some CTRL-C CTRL-V crap you found on a blog. Proof. If you haven’t got it, stop telling people to shut up. If Bernd can’t produce it, why isn’t he being prosecuted for fraud? 2007-03-23 10:46 pm Invincible Cow > If Bernd can’t produce it, why isn’t he being prosecuted for fraud? Because he can, but doesn’t want to show people like you. 2007-03-23 11:07 pm Vibe Because he can, but doesn’t want to show people like you. Don’t care what Bernd says or wants. If no proof appears, that speaks for itself. If he’s got nothing to fear, he’s got nothing to hide? Customers are the ones he’s got to please. It’s not as if we owe him money, and there’s plenty of companies that don’t appear so dubious. 2007-03-24 5:55 am nicholas He must live in France then. 😉 2007-03-26 11:29 am memson Okay, here we go… As I understand it, Bernd (not YellowTab or Magnusoft) has some kind of non-perpetual deal with Palm (which then passed to Access or whatever) till 2009 or there abouts, to allow a one off one way access to the source, and then rights to use that sourcebase whilst the license is valid. All changes that are made to the BeOS source code are meant to be folded back into the main source (hence libZeta – a new component that is NOT part of the codebase licensed) and I think they’ve done very little to the core OS and have built on top of the main structure rather than change it so as to retain copyright. This is why Bernd always takes the source with him. No Bernd, no source access. Why am I saying this – I’m tired of reading the BS people spout about yT/Bernd. He’s never seemed like a particularly bad person to me. He even *gave* me a free license to Zeta to develo some apps for them. This fgot me from RC3 all the way up to Zeta 1.2 for the cost of an upgrade (€10 a time.) Then again, who knows. INAL. 2007-03-23 9:23 pm andrewg And you know this how? If all you have to offer is heresay the I think you are hardly in a position to offer such an unqualified statement of fact. If you do have more than that the details would be nice to know. Edited 2007-03-23 21:25 2007-03-23 7:18 pm vasper I don’t know why this happened, but I believe Magnussoft should have invested more into Zeta because it can be a great success. If it was Magnussoft’s fault, they should have tried better, and if it wasn’t they should have tried more to keep Zeta. I might be the main person behind BeOS Max, but I am a big fan of Zeta, as I use it almost as much as my main OS. And a software Engineer (on windows – I am ashamed to say), I know that getting it perfect is difficult, but at least Zeta is on the way there. 2007-03-23 7:28 pm nicholas “I don’t get it..” I do. Money talks and BS walks. 2007-03-23 10:01 pm Anonymous Penguin Vasper, I am extremely glad that you started developing BeOS Max again. You are not greedy and there is nothing dubious about your project (and besides BeOS Max is very nice) 2007-03-23 7:25 pm Ford Prefect This is just another sign, like the bankruptcy was. I would like to know, how many are these “other developers”? Bernd failed, and he did months/years ago. 2007-03-23 7:31 pm Mage66 I know that Purplus in the U.S. is still selling 1.0 and 1.21 even though Yellow Tab is gone, and is selling the 1.5 Update… I think that Bernd should drop the price of Zeta 1.5 to $49.95 and drop out the GoBe Productive Suite to save licensing costs, and just try to grow the user base. Instead of trying to make a lot of money on a few copies, they need to get it out there in volume so that people will develop software. A later version with more development and functionality under it’s belt might be worth $100US. But, as it stands it’s my opinion Zeta isn’t worth that kind of money. Especially with things like BeOSMax for free. 2007-03-23 7:49 pm mikesum32 Christ on a cracker, can anything go right for Zeta ? I knew it was bad when yT went under. I knew it was bad when Magnussoft, the game company were announced to be the new home of Zeta. What’s next ? It seems to me that Bernd is probably the only one legally able to develop Zeta, or he is very smart when it comes to who has control of Zeta, because after yT went under and the new Magnussoft, he still has control. 2007-03-23 7:52 pm mini-me Kinda funny that my thesis on my blogpost “is zeta relevant?” (http://www.club-admiralty.com) keeps getting more proof on how I was (more or less) correct about what I was thinking 😉 2007-03-23 8:52 pm imstillatwork That Zeta is not the product that should be carying the BeOS legacy… only Haiku has shown that they are trying to do things right. – By right I don’t mean open source, I mean preparing a plan to carry BeOS to new levels. I’ve read and seen little, if any real, good that came from YT. possibly a few drivers or bits of code at the most… Edited 2007-03-23 20:53 2007-03-24 11:12 am stew I’ve read and seen little, if any real, good that came from YT. For everyone not living in an English-speaking country, LocaleKit is big. And Multiuser support is something that people were already begging Be Inc for. 2007-03-24 11:13 am stew I’ve read and seen little, if any real, good that came from YT. For everyone not living in an English-speaking country, LocaleKit is big. And Multiuser support is something that people were already begging Be Inc for. 2007-03-23 9:14 pm dhave Here’s Google Translate’s English rendering of Bernd’s announcement about Zeta and Magnussoft: “I communicate today officially that there is no co-operation between me and that like nut often more. Same applies to all developers to the project ZETA by like nut often was paid and with me together on it to have worked. Since in the team did not change for anything work, we at present in same speed further. The update I to give change like published shortly. Bernd Korz ” My suggestion for ending Zeta’s financial woes: have the Zeta developers write a decent translator for Google, charge a billion dollars for it, and then resume the excellent task of getting BeOS back on track. 2007-03-25 8:49 pm gfx1 My suggestion for ending Zeta’s financial woes: have the Zeta developers write a decent translator for Google, charge a billion dollars for it, and then resume the excellent task of getting BeOS back on track. There isn’t that much difference between Zeta’s english and an automatic translation 🙂 2007-03-23 9:56 pm poundsmack you know what would make this all better. Have Amiga inc. buy them. Then we wouldnt have to worry about any more bussiness polotics and we will have steady (tangible) releases. (teh sarcasm is on there pretty thick, all in good fun of course.) Edited 2007-03-23 22:05 2007-03-23 10:25 pm 0033 People, please let’s not forget that although Bernd and the team have not always been very clear about what rights the have to source code they have, there has been done a lot of good work for BeOS well. Think of lot’s of drivers, a couple of nice new apps and the games they got ported. It’s not all sunshine and personally I think I would have done a lot of things different, but you can not say that Bernd is only there for the money. He is one of the very few people who has to guts to transform his love for BeOS into his job, and he personally put a lot of money into yT when it started. The development team behind Zeta are all people who want their beloved os to succeed, and I dare to say that they are all hard working individuals who are not at all interested in all the scams and dirty things they are accused of in some of the posts above. Back then Bernd started yellowTab because he believes that there is a market for a product like BeOS today and I think that with the right management and pr and a lot of hard work there might be a place for a commercial BeOS/Zeta 2007-03-23 10:45 pm Vibe The development team behind Zeta are all people who want their beloved os to succeed, and I dare to say that they are all hard working individuals who are not at all interested in all the scams and dirty things they are accused of in some of the posts above. That’s very emotional but it’s missing something. Proof? 2007-03-23 11:15 pm Invincible Cow How about innocent until proven guilty? 2007-03-23 11:25 pm vasper Ok people, I have personally met Bernd and I think he is an honest person. I appreciate support for my project, but it is not even on the same league as Bernd’s work. My work is only introductory, so people can see what they miss by not getting a real BeOS system. And Zeta is a real BeOS system and a damn good one. So please stop bashing Bernd, who after all never told you to buy his product. 2007-03-26 8:13 am Soulbender “How about innocent until proven guilty?” Not to consumers you aren’t. If you are repeatedly asked for proof of legality yet refuses to show any it’s is NOT going to sit well with potential customers, no matter what. 2007-03-23 11:23 pm plfiorini Bern is innocent until proven to be guilt. Anyway all of us can confirm that Zeta was not going to move BeOS to the next level. Maybe they don’t have the source code or maybe they can’t develop it further. As far as I know some Haiku developers worked on Zeta, but I guess they cannot tell anything about this question. I think yT and Magnussoft didn’t go very well because they were not managed the right way (not that I know how to run a company), and this doesn’t depend on the source code. The question is: how Zeta could improve Haiku and make its development faster? Haiku really needs to release R1 because this means that we have a full replacement for BeOS R5 and the Glasselevator project can be started. Even if R1 is going to be released tomorrow it will an outdated OS, but at least we’ll have a chance to bring BeOS back. I wonder what’s the Zeta future. It would be great if the source code is released for public domain with a MIT-like license so Haiku can take some parts. 2007-03-23 10:49 pm AndrewZ To show my support for Bernd’s hard work and to go in the face of all the nay-sayers who like to play arm chair quarterback with their mouths, I’m going to Purplus and buy a copy of 1.5. So there. 2007-03-24 12:35 am JPisini I’m no expert on law in this country never mind other countries so I don’t know if it’s legal or not. What I know is I bought and paid for Zeta neo and 1.0 and 1.2 and I enjoyed every one. I had issues with video drivers recently so I emailed Bernd he could have ignored me but me and him sent over a dozen emails back and forth. Now I never did get everything working but he went the extra mile in my book to help me. So everyone that wants to bad mouth Bernd that has never met him or used the product really should lay off. 2007-03-24 11:17 am stew Correct. I met Bernd in person at a Begeistert a few years ago and I can assure you that he’s very enthousiastic about BeOS and Zeta. And contrary to many people who post here claiming how they care about BeOS, he is investing personal time and money in it. 2007-03-24 4:01 pm Alchemy It is so easy to sling mud and make crybaby comments but it is so hard to actually engage and move a difficult project forward. Bernd is not perfect but he has done a lot for the BeOS community. The hard work put into Haiku is astounding and really inspirational. Zeta came along and also moved BeOS along by bringing out an upgraded commercial product that could be loaded onto today’s modern hardware. I have enjoyed them and I don’t hesitate to purchase BeOS related products. I actually want to financially support work on BeOS where it is of use to me. I wish Bernd well and hope this all works out for the best. I would like to see lots of people making money and bringing lots of cool ideas into reality around BeOS technology. This would make me happy to see lots of different groups thriving. Fortunately those that want to cry about this or that don’t have to use it and hopefully once they get a little attention they will move elsewhere. I am off to check out Purplus. 2007-03-24 5:51 pm Yomama Haiku is supporting the Beos Community not Zeta/Yellowtab. Mr. Korz saw an opportunity to take money from the community and made a business out of it. I have to give him credit for doing so and for the effort he put in to the business. However, the prices Yellowtab charges for this outdated OS is outrages in my opinion especially compared with all the good and advanced alternative OS’s we have around us. For a new newcomer in this competitive market you have to provide something special or offer something for free in order for developers and end user to jump on board. My guess is he will be releasing small updates to the OS and will charge a premium for it until Haiku is ready for their release and later will use the source code from them. 2007-03-24 6:18 pm JPisini Yomama I disagree I love BeOS just downloaded the latest Max version myself but BeOS doesn’t work with wireless my Zeta does that alone makes it worth the money to me. I give money to Linux developers not because I have to as we all know I can get Linux for free I do it to support what I believe in. I believed in Zeta and it hasn’t let me down I find it very usable and if there was a decent PIM with Palm support I could use it as my only OS Haiku is a great project I wish them only the best but it is nowhere near as polished and easy to use as Zeta is at this point. I stand by my original post Bernd went the extra mile in my book instead of complaining about him help people in the community out and make a difference. 2007-03-24 6:34 pm Yomama I respect your opinion. Good to hear Zeta works well for you. 2007-03-25 5:15 am Vibe Fortunately those that want to cry about this or that don’t have to use it and hopefully once they get a little attention they will move elsewhere. Who cares if people “cry” or “emote”. The bottom line is OS News needs to be more rigorous in its treatment, and Bernd needs to come up with proof of Zeta’s legitimacy and management competence. Until then, both OS News and Zeta are clowns. Don’t like it? Deal with it. 2007-03-25 10:06 am Thom Holwerda The bottom line is OS News needs to be more rigorous in its treatment What treatment? Should OSNews crucify Korz just because a user named ‘Vibe’ says we should? and Bernd needs to come up with proof of Zeta’s legitimacy and management competence. No, you need to come up with proof that Zeta is illegitimate. I still do not understand why someone has to prove his innocence. YOU should prove his guilt. Until then, both OS News and Zeta are clowns. Don’t like it? Deal with it. Did Bernd like, eat your baby or something? 2007-03-25 11:05 am Vibe Thom, your examination of Zeta’s legitimacy and management is weak, and position on copyright equally weak. Bernd’s claim to distribution “rights” is vague at best, and the origination of the source doubtful with the Dano source leak. Your view on copyright is totally inaccurate. There is no such legal entity as “abandonware” and your promotion of such work is complicit. Both Zeta and OS News are backed into a corner. I’ve put both to the test and all you can do is run away and hide, shout, or pass juvenile insults. Whether you want to admit it or not both of you are a few shades short of credibility. That’s not just me saying so, that’s the reality of your own actions. That’s not my problem. Carry on as you are. It’s your loss, not mine. 2007-03-25 11:16 am vasper vibe, why is OSNews backed into a corner? Because you don’t know if Zeta is legal? OSNews really couldn’t care less about what you know or don’t know. They report the news and they try to keep up a civil discussion. If I tell you I know it is legal will you stop bashing everybody? 2007-03-25 11:38 am Vibe vibe, why is OSNews backed into a corner? Because you don’t know if Zeta is legal? OSNews really couldn’t care less about what you know or don’t know. They report the news and they try to keep up a civil discussion. If I tell you I know it is legal will you stop bashing everybody? Oh, you and Thom know Zeta is legal. Where’s the proof? Bernd and Co have never come up with anything other than smiles and warm handshakes. Given the questions over the distribution “rights” and provenance of the source, nothing short of an independently verified contract can clear this. So far, I see no proof that you know anything. You and Thom are skidding on thin ice as both your treatments of copyright law aren’t correct. The Berne Convention is very clear about what is and isn’t covered by copyright, that it cannot be transfered without explicit authorisation, and you don’t have that. Unless, of course, you have proof but I expect your legal opinion and proof is as hazy as Thom and Bernd’s. Zeta and BeOS Max can swivel as far as I care. Haiku is legally clear as it’s a new work and its source isn’t in doubt. Perhaps Zeta and BeOS Max can play a fringe role in building up interest but Haiku is where the main action is. Dreams are fine but the rubber has to hit the road sometime. Given the circumstances, I expect any serious financier or customer thinks the same. Edited 2007-03-25 11:40 2007-03-25 2:56 pm Thom Holwerda Oh, you and Thom know Zeta is legal. Where’s the proof? You are starting to work on my nerves here, sonny. When person abc accuses person pqr of crime xyz, it is person abc’s job to provide the evidence; it is not the task of person pqr to prove his innocence. This is the very basis of modern, civilised justice systems, and your lack of understanding of this concept speaks volumes about a number of things, including, but not limited to, your age. Haiku is legally clear as it’s a new work and its source isn’t in doubt. Oh, really? Who knows the Haiku developers were not looking at the leaked Dano code when writing Haiku (1)? Try and disprove that, sonny. Perhaps Zeta and BeOS Max can play a fringe role in building up interest but Haiku is where the main action is. Let’s see which of these projects has the most users, then we’ll talk about who’s playing the fringe role (2). (1) Obviously this is not the case; I am just trying to convey a point. (2) Haiku rules, but for now, they are the ones playing the fringe role, with probably not more than 3 people and a cow using Haiku. 2007-03-25 3:14 pm Vibe You are starting to work on my nerves here, sonny. When person abc accuses person pqr of crime xyz, it is person abc’s job to provide the evidence; it is not the task of person pqr to prove his innocence. This is the very basis of modern, civilised justice systems, and your lack of understanding of this concept speaks volumes about a number of things, including, but not limited to, your age. So, you have no proof? Thought so. In any case if Zeta have issues with legal, financial, and management credibility in the eyes of financiers and customers your comments about court are a moot point, and you know it. That this is getting “on your nerves” speaks volumes about many things, including, but not limited to your journalistic credibility, don’t you think? Tread carefully, young Jedi. Oh, really? Who knows the Haiku developers were not looking at the leaked Dano code when writing Haiku (1)? Try and disprove that, sonny. Doesn’t matter if they saw the code or not. The fact that their published code is original is all that matters. So-called clean room implementations are just a fancy and unecessary, a fiction cooked up by people with no understanding and too many lawyers. Artists visit galleries, and musicians listen to CD’s, and programmers scan open source code. The difference is between inspired and copied. 2007-03-25 4:23 pm Thom Holwerda So, you have no proof? I never said I did not have any proof. I have enough proof in my possession making it absolutely clear to me that Zeta is made with the full consent of PalmSource, the current owners of the Be, Inc. IP (which includes the leaked Dano version). However, contrary to what you insist on claiming (namely, that one is guilty until proven innocent), I have no obligation whatsoever to hand over this proof on a public forum or any other medium. I know a lot of stuff concerning BeOS and its owner, PalmSource, which covers, among other things, the deal between PalmSource and yT/Korz. However, I am not within my right to speak about this, since there is this thing called confidentiality and ‘off-the-record’ like stuff. Sure, the stuff I know will one day be out in the open, but as long as I do not receive said information on the record, you won’t hear me say a thing about it. Now, I let it up to my readers who to believe: me, someone who has contacts with ex-Be engineers, people working on Zeta, Haiku developers, and so on; or, you, a no-name without any form of credibility. 2007-03-25 4:41 pm Vibe You keep talking about proof, this mysterious thing that is above the heads of the great unwashed, like some annointed priest, but we know where that leads. So far, you haven’t produced anything other than Thom sez. Yeah, right. It’s like listening to some blowhard gaming mag that claims XYZ is the shit. Maybe you’re a little too close to the action, and all this “insider” information is going to your head. From where I’m standing, your inability to produce a story which delivers real proof says you haven’t got it, or you’re not too good at making a case for Zeta to come clean. That’s your problem. Then there’s the copyright issue, and everything you’ve got to say on that along with your promotion of the illegal BeOS Max doesn’t do anything for you either. I’d rather be a no-name than a bad-name, thank you. 2007-03-25 7:22 pm MYOB You appear to be missing the big point here: The burden of proof is on you, as the accuser. Nobody needs to prove its legitimate, because you can’t prove its not. Basic understanding of the premises of law would be a help in your arguments… 2007-03-26 4:34 am ormandj I never said I did not have any proof. I have enough proof in my possession making it absolutely clear to me that Zeta is made with the full consent of PalmSource, the current owners of the Be, Inc. IP (which includes the leaked Dano version). However, contrary to what you insist on claiming (namely, that one is guilty until proven innocent), I have no obligation whatsoever to hand over this proof on a public forum or any other medium. Access owns the IP, not PalmSource. Wow, you’re a bit behind the times for having “proof”. You’re right, you have no obligation, neither does Bernd. However, he runs a business, and if he doesn’t prove what he is doing legal, people are going to continue NOT giving him money out of questionable legality. You keep making this out to be some court case, it’s NOT, this is business. There is no such thing as “innocent until proven guilty” in the business world. You have to PROVE to your potential clients that you are legit/your product is worth purchasing. Bernd doesn’t do this, neither do you. I know a lot of stuff concerning BeOS and its owner, PalmSource, which covers, among other things, the deal between PalmSource and yT/Korz. However, I am not within my right to speak about this, since there is this thing called confidentiality and ‘off-the-record’ like stuff. Sure, the stuff I know will one day be out in the open, but as long as I do not receive said information on the record, you won’t hear me say a thing about it. There is always some excuse. Why is it so hard for Bernd/whatever new scam company he starts to simply come out and state “yes, we have legal rights to the source code”? There is not a single reason on earth not to, unless he doesn’t. That’s why everybody doubts/questions the legality. All the excuses in the world don’t make it “ok”. You wonder why his business failed? It was horribly mismanaged and run by people like yourself who apparently have no clue about business, comparing it to a court of law, hah! Now, I let it up to my readers who to believe: me, someone who has contacts with ex-Be engineers, people working on Zeta, Haiku developers, and so on; or, you, a no-name without any form of credibility. Wow, you’re such a high-roller! You’re a joke Thom, bragging about your “connections” and accusing somebody of being a nobody. Reality is, beyond being an editor on a OS-related news site, you’re a nobody too. If you look at the big picture, I’m a nobody as well. The difference between you and me, I’m not going to sit here and brag about my business, my friends (some of whom worked for yT), people I know involved in the Haiku project and generally sit on a high-horse like you are attempting to do. Sure, all those things are true, but it doesn’t make me any more valid of a source than you. I rely on assertions that can be backed up by factual information, not hearsay and words that might as well be interpreted as: “I have proof but I’m not gonna show it to you nana nana! Believe me anyways, because you’re a nobody and I know this one guy who knows this one other guy who knows this dude who is totally awesome and his third cousin happens to be an ex-be engineer! That makes my understanding of Zeta’s legality perfect!” I will, however, point out you have the credibility of my little toe. It’s REALLY funny to hear you insult somebody else’s credibility right after a name-calling/bragging post of your own. Fail. 2007-03-25 8:37 pm vasper vibe, have you ever heard of NDAs ? Several of those have been signed, and that is as far as I can prove anything. You don’t like that, or you think it isn’t enough. Good. Don’t buy the product that is being sold. Further than that it is you that has to prove anything. How do you know Zeta is illegal? Do you have proof? Do you know of anyone who has claimed so, or is loosing money by what Bernd and his team is doing? Of course not. So bashing Bernd, or me on the subject of legality of Zeta is a null point… you know null right? cp point /dev/null 2007-03-24 1:41 am Zenja Outside of the Haiku group, Bernd has done more for the extension of BeOS than any other individual after BeInc closed their doors. He tried his best in such a difficult market, and you have to respect him for having the guts to try, even though most people thought the project was doomed. I purchased Zeta, more out of a will of charity than anything else. And yes, I’ve also donated money to Haiku. Anything that extends the life of our beloved OS has my support. So Bernd and Magnussoft parted ways, this should generate a ‘meh’ more than anything, especially considering that we can all taste the sweet smell of Haiku cooking in the kitchen. Soon, dinner will be ready. 2007-03-24 5:39 am ssa2204 Seriously, I do not get how Zeta could even be in business trying to sell an OS that most think is dead. The person that first introduced me to Beos way back when did not even know it was still around, nor did he care. Already Beos has already had too small of a user/developer base, hence why the original Beos went bankrupt. And please, don’t start screaming that BeOS is got a big huge fanbase blah blah blah. It doesn’t. I do not mean to necessarily disparage Beos. My point is this is a niche OS that really should just be open source developed by a supporting community. Charging $50 for this OS is trully $50 too expensive if they are marketing this to the general public. Much like SkyOS, there is really one way an OS can succed; either be free (Linux), developed by well known market dominating corp (Microsoft), or be completely original, ground-breaking and innovative (????). Sadly Zeta and the whole Beos’s time has come and gone. Really, this should have just died when Apple said no. Edited 2007-03-24 05:40 2007-03-25 7:27 pm aGNUstic “Now, I let it up to my readers who to believe: me, someone who has contacts with ex-Be engineers, people working on Zeta, Haiku developers, and so on; or, you, a no-name without any form of credibility.” Before I make any comments I would like to qualify myself. I am not an ugly American with anti-European or anti-Asian attitudes. I was raised by my grandparents, I’m 43, one of whom served in the then Army Air Corps in the European theater during World War II, not to be so judgmental of others. I, myself am of French, Swiss, Welsh, and, yes, Deutch, ancestry. Specifically to the Deutch ancestry it can be traced to Johann Jacob Bender and Maria Elisabetha Zimmerman of Eschelbach, Baden (1693). BTW, for those who may be light on the geography, Eschelbach is located in the southern area of Germany near the Swiss and Austrian borders. My point? All this name calling and anti-whatever is worthless. Calling people a `no-name`, interpreted to mean worthless, is just as empty as calling someone a member of the NSP of WWII. You’re an editor. You don’t need to justify or call people down. I thought OS New was supposed to be about operating systems. To express my own views. Being civil, or at least considering myself to be, I would have to agree there is no proof Bernd has stolen anything. He is, by western standards, innocent until proven guilty of any criminal activity. On the other side of the proverbial coin, I would also agree it would be more comforting to, at least from the number I see here at OS News, if he would produce something to null their fears of criminal activities. After these things are resolved we can move forward with what I consider a `still valuable` operating system. 2007-03-26 5:05 am Yomama If Mr. Korz would do illegal activities, Palm or the respective owner of the source code would have sued them by now. Since this hasn’t happened yet we can assume he is doing it the legal way. I could be wrong but Yellowtab as a private company doesn’t have to disclose anything in regards to the source code. However, since this issue comes up over and over I would probably release a statement to comfort my developers, current Zeta users as well as future customers. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I believe Yellowtab needs to rethink their Marketing Strategy to show the users they are here to stay. aGNUstic: It’s Deutsch not Deutch Edited 2007-03-26 05:07 2007-03-26 5:46 am Vibe If Mr. Korz would do illegal activities, Palm or the respective owner of the source code would have sued them by now. Since this hasn’t happened yet we can assume he is doing it the legal way. Not necessarily. Access is a Japanese company, and their animation industry has been incredibly slow to prosecute mass copyright infringement in overseas territories. Then there’s the license dispute Bernd had with Gobe. He says, they say. My take is Bernd is manipulating grey areas, which is why no proof is forthcoming. The parallels between this situation and the high profile insurance and pension scams of the 1980’s and 1990’s rings too clearly in my ears. Barlow Clowes bent the law and Maxwell pulled the charisma line, and we know how that ended. Publish the contract that Bernd claims gives him “rights”, and the audit trail that shows where he got the source from. So far, this is just embrassing. No proof can only make it worse. 2007-03-26 7:44 am moondevil For old timers like myself BeOS/Zeta development reminds me too much of Commodore’s own story. So goodbye BeOS, nice knowing you. 2007-03-26 3:41 pm Luposian Why is it they’re taking so much stuff from Haiku? If they legally possess the sources, why do they even NEED to? What is Haiku doing that is better than Bernd and Co.? Except that it’s FREE labor for Bernd and Co. Free labor + selling Zeta for X amount = near 100% profit. And, why don’t they just take the working (and freely available) source code of Haiku and work on that, instead, and this entire “legality” argument can be buried, once and for all? Except that… if *they* work on it, they’ll have to PAY someone to work on it. And Bernd and Co. seem a bit allergic to that idea. Probably because they simply don’t have (and can’t get, by whatever means) enough money to do so. Zeta’s lifespan reeks of “Amiga” all over again. Zeta is handed over to new people, only be be handed over to new people, only to be handed over to new people… ad infinitum ad nauseum. The sum total of Zeta’s existance in the “legacy of BeOS” will be but a footnote in our memory of an OS that was a misbegotten stepchild to the REAL BeOS. Forever promoted and forever mismanaged into utter obscurity. The sooner Zeta is put down, the less suffering we will ALL have to endure. Haiku is the only one truly qualified to carry the torch of BeOS. In heart and soul, it remains truest to the history and legacy of BeOS. 2007-03-26 5:42 pm bornagainenguin Here’s a better question– If “Zeta” continues on with its current (and very AMIGA-like course) will that cause harm to the reputation of Haiku when it finally reaches R1? –bornagainpenguin 2007-03-26 8:34 pm Luposian Zeta is utterly irrelevant to Haiku. Unless, rumor is true about Bernd actually OWNING the Source Code to BeOS (as someone implied in an earlier post), I don’t think what happens to Zeta will have ANY impact on Haiku. Anyone who has their head on straight can tell the difference between them. Zeta is Bernd & Co.s efforts to push a dead horse (BeOS) further down the track and make it get up and do a jig. They don’t even have a clear focus on what they want Zeta to actually DO for people. Latest thing is… play ports of commercial games? Come on! Really! Haiku is the *proper* revival of what made BeOS great and improving upon that, here and there (USB 2.0, SATA(n) drive support, etc.). There is no “lack” of focus, because the ONLY focus, right now, is to get Haiku up and running in R1, period. After that, THEN we’ll see where others take it. Now, where things could get “problematic”, is if Bernd DOES own the BeOS Source Code outright and decides that Haiku is “infringing” on Zeta’s territory and demands they cease and desist, so that Zeta can take center stage. In today’s legalistic clime, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if this happened somewhere down the road. Bernd/yT threatened to sue one developer awhile back and Bernd has suddenly dismissed all association with Magnussoft. Why? Why is EVERYTHING with Zeta and Bernd & Co. so secretive? Why don’t we have a clear-cut showing of WHO owns what and who has the RIGHTS to what and who is DOING what? Is Bernd & Co. held to an NDA themselves? And, if so, that PROVES they don’t own the rights to the source code! The *licensor* sets the NDA, not the licensee! Try not to get too nauseated by watching the whirling dirvish, known as Zeta, run and controlled by Bernd & Co. and [whoever else]. Just keep your eyes focused on the steady stream of progress by those over at Haiku, Inc and their team of masterful BeOS-inspired code artisans, who slowly weave the beautiful tapestry known as… Haiku OS! 2007-03-27 11:52 am memson > Why is it they’re taking so much stuff from Haiku? A number of reasons: 1) Because it costs nothing to use someone elses code 2) Because the changes they make to BeOS code they have are required to be returned to the owner of the code – using Haiku code they get around this. 3) Re-inventing the wheel for the sake of re-inventing the wheel is pointless. The more open components they have, the easier it’ll be for them to continue after their licese for the sourcecode expires in 2009 (or there abouts.) 2007-03-27 6:32 pm spanglywires Can anything related to BeOS happen without disaster or delay? Be themselves never hit a deadline! Never really understood the ‘if yT have the source why don’t they say so’ conundrum. If they did then we’d have seen OpenGL for at least a select few cards, if they don’t, surely they’d have been sued… Haiku must pick up the pace – this is their chance to push up a true r1 and get cracking on the updates. Forget dragging the BSD netstack in, get something shipped and start chewing on the glass elevator list to catch up with 2007.