“What you are about to read is a true story. China thinks Microsoft software contains secretly embedded code that the United States government can manipulate at will. So, in case of war between the two countries, a Pentagon official can hit a switch and–presto!–cripple China’s computing infrastructure. A senior Microsoft executive, who often confers with the Chinese (sorry, no names), told me this tale. I thought he was joking. He wasn’t. Some people in the Chinese government actually believe it’s true.” Read the report at ZDNet.
Microsoft Spies for the US, Chinese Claim
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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The reason the Chines think MS is putting code in for the US government is because that’s what they would do if MS was a Chinese company.
let them believe what they want. this will only provide another reason for a mass switch to an alternative OS. They are already developing a version of linux for use by the chinese government I think
i don’t put a lot of faith in anything that comes out of the chinese government, the US government, European governments etc. Can you say propaganda artists with hidden agendas.
Still could be. you never know.
but as much as those whackos hate American companies, do you really think they’d allow the freedoms you can have with opensource? sure china may switch to other OSs, but will it be as open as it is in the civilized world?
> sure china may switch to other OSs,
> but will it be as open as it is in
> the civilized world?
I take it then China is not part of the “civilized world”?? Would you care to tell us why?
Uh.. Communism? The civilized world has democracy and self-determination.
“I think that (US) government teaching China how to live and what to do is like teenager just lost his virginity trying to teach sex to hard-core playboy”.
Rented, dj-mixed culture and 40 year of civilized customs versus thousand of years old experience in country existence and culture.
I thought America was socialist. 😐
Can you say NSA_Key ??
This sounds like a friend of a friend story. OTOH it is known that companies like IBM in the past did intentionally cripple offerings to protect US military / security interests. Further such a move wouldn’t need to come from the top. A Taiwanese sernior developer/manager/director within Microsoft could be engaging in putting back doors into the software and leaking them to US intellegence.
The US government is mildly hostile to China
The US government has considerable leverage over microsoft on dozens of fronts.
If I were the Chinese I’d be doing exactly what they are doing, except for genuinely critical military systems I’d be using something more secure than a Unix that is open source (Eros comes to mind).
“The reason the Chines think MS is putting code in for the US government is because that’s what they would do if MS was a Chinese company.”
Ahem, cough, cough…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1769642.stm
“Rented, dj-mixed culture and 40 year of civilized customs versus thousand of years old experience in country existence and culture”
Do that “thousand of years old experience” includes killing hundreds of people in tianamen square?
“let them believe what they want. this will only provide another reason for a mass switch to an alternative OS”
how about adding another line to the GPLs: “This software cannot be used in undemocratic countries”, i guess the term “free” only apllies to the software and the people who use it.
Heh, it always amazes me how US Citizens just don’t realise the extent to which their government is held in suspicion by the rest of the world
From the CIA trying to assassinate foreign leaders (chile, argentina, australia…) to plans to ‘americanize’ the world culturally.. pah.. </end rant>
Do that “thousand of years old experience” includes killing hundreds of people in tianamen square?
Or dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people? Oh, wait, that was a “civilized” country 🙂
Well, maybe you believe US government cannot force MS to do this, but do you really KNOW that?
In the position of China, can you really trust a country who has been hostile to you over half a century? Or can you trust a company that greedily grabs your cash and you never know what he’s really doing on you?
Security is definitely a good reason to abandon MS win!
Civilized != democratic
One major sign of a culture being civilised is the possession of a
writing system.
Uh.. Communism? The civilized world has democracy and self-determination.
As a neoliberal, I hate communism too, but what you describe is Stalinism/Maoism. Calling China communist is like calling America capitalist, its an extreme oversimplification. If you want to attack China, at least do it with facts.
Anyone remember when Boeing supposedly bugged the CPC’s chairman’s plane? China is paranoid.
Given the incredibly poor stability of most of Microsoft’s OSes, I don’t think the Chinese government need worry about this. If there was such a feature in Windows, it (a)wouldn’t work when it was supposed to, and (b)would work at random times when it wasn’t supposed to, meaning we would all have seen it in action by now. Maybe that explains all those BSOD’s – “it’s not a bug, its a security feature to protect America from foreign powers!”
-Jules Verne
I’ve heard several FBI guys speak about security issues in hte past. Each of those guys were highly paranoid and didn’t seem to have the same regard of constitutional rights and privacy that I expected them to.
I’d be way more surprised if MS products hadn’t been backdoored for years.
Heh, it always amazes me how US Citizens just don’t realise the extent to which their government is held in suspicion by the rest of the world
From the CIA trying to assassinate foreign leaders (chile, argentina, australia…) to plans to ‘americanize’ the world culturally.. pah..
Right, and we’re the only government in the world that does that, hmm?
What’s amazing is not that the US govt is held in suspicion by the rest of the world, but that the rest of the world acts like our govt is somehow less guilty of these things than theirs. It brings to mind the shock of US apologists for the Soviet regime after the fall of the “not-so-Evil, really” Empire.
Or dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people?
What exactly is the issue: that “innocents” were targeted (something non-Americans are much, much worse about, especially the Japanese regime) or that nuclear bombs were used?
They are probably just pressure transducers or something stupid like that. “We don’t know what it is, and it has wires…must be a bug”
I wouldn’t doubt it though.. I doubt that all the Chinese scientists here haven’t leaked some nuclear research documents back home either.
As an American though, I wish our governement would let China be. Hell.. if China is happy being slave labor for the rest of the world, let them. Why start a war over it? Most of my computer was manufactured there.
Of COURSE it’s true. Could a government do any less to protect itself from attack by it’s own technology? Why do you think they got “most favored nation” status? It was to get them hooked on America’s Big Teat while they trojaned themselves with dependency on our computers. Do you think they couldn’t tell Clinton was up to something witless when he kept awarding them undeserved perks? Did you think they would be too stupid to figure it out, even while they were getting away with stealing military secrets from us with a baffling lack of retribution? Like all other liars, Clinton supposed no one else could tell he was up to something. Now years later, here you children are, having heard about it for the first time, having been too stupid to figure it out yourselves years ago, and even after it’s made plain for you, you debate it like it’s a fantastic conspiracy theory. What a bunch of dopes.
Firstly the nuclear bombings saved lives, on both sides. Secondly the japanese government was invited to the nuclear tests. Thirdly they had time to surrender after the first one but their pride wouldn’t let them so tens of thousands more died.
Nice of you to only mention things that happened what 25+ years ago. And not to mention any of the good stuff we’ve done. So go ahead and feel suspicious but I guarantee when a country needs aid, or food, or medicine they call the US.
> Civilized != democratic
Civilised != to any particular political or cultural system.
The hype notwithstanding, the US is not a very democratic nation. Everything is up for sale in America, including democracy, depending on what the American government needs to accomplish at the moment. I would say some European States are certainly more democratic.
China has no reason to trust the US government or companies like MS. Not when it is still listed on the list of potential nuclear targets.
>”Uh.. Communism? The civilized world has democracy and self-determination.”
Hmm… So just where is the “civilized” world then?
>”Well, maybe you believe US government cannot force MS to do this, but do you really KNOW that?”
I think Microsoft would LOVE to do something like this. Imagine what the result of having an upper hand over the government on something would be.
“Do that “thousand of years old experience” includes killing hundreds of people in tianamen square? ”
For comparison, can you trust country killed hundred thousands of civilians just for fear in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, even in Vietnam ?
Can you trust counry who still has practice of murder of its civilians on electical chair or by injections and hanging, while whole Europe don’t practisize such barbarity it, even Estern Europe…
But that’s really offtopic. But it can explain, why world don’t trust in goodwill of any thing going from there, even such mentors’/saints/supermans/good-brave-guys-versus-bad-guys positions which we can see here, on technical forums
What exactly is the issue: that “innocents” were targeted (something non-Americans are much, much worse about, especially the Japanese regime) or that nuclear bombs were used?
No, the issue was, and I thought it was pretty obvious, that the US isn’t as holy as everyone here pretends to be.. And that they should better first look at themselves, instead of directly critizing China.
“Oh, dear, so many countries hate the US. It’s those countries! They are just plain evil! Our foreign politics are just perfect! We are the good guys, and the rest of the world are the bad guys!”
I doubt Microsoft actually puts back doors into its products on purpose, but the reason stories like this get so much attention is because there is no real way to disprove them. Actually, the NSA (etc) have no real need for back doors, they merely need to find a single security hole in Windows that hasn’t been fixed yet.
I used to live in Japan. If you have never lived there then shut up about the culture. The people would have fought to the last person. Believe me they are one in spirit. They were also warned that we had such a bomb and would use it. Every one in Japan was working to kill not only Americans but also to enslave the entire area. Read a F$%#king history book.
Sorry. If we had just asked Japan to quit killing their neighbors they might have?
Hey, China is not much better than pre-WW2 Japan. They are spying on us and that is why they are so weird. They are the worlds leader is theft. If they want to steal a better OS then nothing is stopping them.
As for the other weirdo’s. I have been around the world and all I hear is how bad the America is.
WHY THEN DOES EVERYONE WANT TO LIVE HERE???
No, go back to your crooked run down corrupt country and blame America for your problems. It was your cousin that killed and robbed from you not us!
1) How makes any of your ramblings the use of a mass destruction weapon justified? You’re probably going to say that burning children alive in Vietnam was pretty much “justified” as well.
2) Read a decent history book, and you may find out that it had alot more to do with economics and internal politics, than with the actual war. The war was actually pretty much won at that point.
No, the issue was, and I thought it was pretty obvious, that the US isn’t as holy as everyone here pretends to be.. And that they should better first look at themselves, instead of directly critizing China.
That’s a pretty shocking statement to make: (a) that issue was not obvious, given what the author you were replying to had written; (b) comparing the mass murder of innocent civilians to the mass murder of a population being trained by their government as a weapon illustrates a highly disturbing lack of proportionality.
Let me be clear: I oppose a great many US policies, and I do feel the use of the atomic bombs was a horrible mistake. The fire bombing of Dresden strikes me as a war crime.
All the same, comparing these to the actions of the Chinese thugocracy makes it pretty clear your sense of proportionality.
Especially considering what your country (Belgium) did to the Congolese.
Off-topic, a bit
ohh, folks, think twice – democracy has its price too as the comunism (or other kind of terror) has. I’m living in the country which escaped from that “red jail” 11 years ago (I was 18 then) and now we have democracy. Cool, I should say. Realy. But I also saw last 11 years – democracy without ant control or/and responsibility becomes the anarchy…. It’s quite dificult to find the balance…
ok, few words about on-topic
all big players (USA, Russia, France, China, Germany and others) have its own tricks. the software – one of those
Regards,
Arturas B.
comparing the mass murder of innocent civilians to the mass murder of a population being trained by their government as a weapon illustrates a highly disturbing lack of proportionality.
You added information about the motives of the government to one part of the “equation”, and neglected it from the other part of the “equation”. You may want to correct that.. 🙂 (let me just say that “to end the war” wasn’t the only reason, and maybe not even the biggest reason).
Granted Belgiums, Chinas actions are certainly not justified. But neither are the actions from the US. It’s great that you can say that one mass murder is more justified than another mass murder. But I somehow can’t. Ah, me and my twisted mind..
But, heck, you know what they say.. The history books are written by the winners..
If this is true, it would undoubtedly be some sort of virus that disables these computers. Remember Code Red? I am sure MS can make something even better, especially if they make their own OS vulnerable.
I think it was on of those that created a file that said “Hacked by Chinese”. Of course it was a joke, but the Chinese wouldn’t mind doing something similar to us.
quote : but the Chinese wouldn’t mind doing something similar to us
i presume u are american and think everybody justs is waiting to fuck up your country
k not that far from the truth
but i lost interesse
The motives for the Chinese regime’s murder of peaceful civilian protesters calling for democracy and political freedoms? Aside from ending a threat and embarassment to the regime, such motives escape me. Perhaps you know more than I. I’m willing to read whatever other motives are familiar to you.
It’s great that you can say that one mass murder is more justified than another mass murder.
No: one mass murder is less evil than another. Mitigation and justification are not the same.
Dropping a nuclear bomb, the most dangerous bomb at that time, on an already pretty much defeated and weak enemy to score points with the local population and to impress Russia, isn’t much better..
We did the same thing to our democratic protesters in the US in the RNC 2000. If you haven’t heard about it blame the ‘liberal media’ for not reporting it. They always show citizens expressing their dislike in a democratic way as good people right? That’s why they blamed the battle of Seattle on the American citizens who were being vitimized by their own govenment. Grow up, come to the inner cities of the US and you’ll find out.
First: China is a civilizated country. When USA has only indians in pre-historic age, China already have a great civilization.
Second: USA is a pseudo-democracy governed by richs. There are some european countries that are much more democratics.
Third: It is obvious that CIA put spyware on Winblows, like many other american softwares. Only opensource is a solution for national security of any country.
Can you trust country who still has practice of murder of its civilians on electical chair or by injections and hanging, while whole Europe don’t practisize such barbarity it, even Estern Europe…
Executing Charles Manson or another psycho (although not justifiable) is not the same as driving a tank over a dozen inocent students.
It’s amazing how culturally insensitive this thread has become . People are just slinging insults at each others countries and on the side continually criticizing China for it’s Government’s beliefs . How is the Tian An Men Square incident at all related to the topic? Every country has its own way of doing things, whether it be very extreme in some circumstances to our mostly Western eyes .
It is against the US Consitution for the US government to do so. If they did do something like that, China can sue the American government. Besides, I doubt America would think of trying to provoct the biggest army force, and soon to be the most powerful. (I doubt their military operations uses Windows, BTW).
Besides, didn’t NSA once contributed a lot of security patches to Linux before Microsoft stop them? If NSA/CIA/Homeland Security really want to spy via Windows, why help Linux?
Beretta: Uh.. Communism? The civilized world has democracy and self-determination.
*Real* communism allows one to pick its own government. What China has is an authorian government, whom is moving more and more towards capitalism.
As for democracy, technically, China has something like that if you pull out all the corruption, but it is an single party democracy.
sole: I thought America was socialist. 😐
The current US government uses a form of protectism. Not capitalism (http://www.capitalism.org/) or socialism (http://www.socialism.org/).
icarii: From the CIA trying to assassinate foreign leaders (chile, argentina, australia…) to plans to ‘americanize’ the world culturally..
The CIA never attempted to kill any Australian Prime Minister, and Australia is a carbon copy of US per-Sept 11 anyway.
Do that “thousand of years old experience” includes killing hundreds of people in tianamen square?
Ahh, does killing an Afghan family during a wedding and blaming them, or forcing Muslims to strip in airports customs just because of their religion, or bombing Himoshima and Nagasaki whom deathly effects is lasting till now, or spying on Americans and sending them of to tribunals just because they support communism and the Communist Party of America, is “civilized?”
Wow. Wrapped logic.
IBjr: Anyone remember when Boeing supposedly bugged the CPC’s chairman’s plane? China is paranoid.
Actually, China didn’t blame Boeing, because the whole manufacturing process is closely watched by Chinese officials. They blame internal underground opposition groups.
Jack Perry: What’s amazing is not that the US govt is held in suspicion by the rest of the world, but that the rest of the world acts like our govt is somehow less guilty of these things than theirs.
No, what brings USA into suspicion is that it does the opposite of what it claims it to do. People don’t suspect countries that outright does these acts because they are more open to it than the US government.
Jack Perry: What exactly is the issue: that “innocents” were targeted (something non-Americans are much, much worse about, especially the Japanese regime) or that nuclear bombs were used?
Innocents: the people US claim to be killed in Sept 11. So Japanese don’t have innocent people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while only US does? Besides, contrary to your history books, the only reason why US attack Japan was to protect its interests especially in Asia. To Asians, having the West colonize them or Japan serves no difference (except to the Chinese…..).
gsc: As an American though, I wish our governement would let China be. Hell.. if China is happy being slave labor for the rest of the world, let them. Why start a war over it? Most of my computer was manufactured there.
That “slave labour” you speak of it the fastest growing economy in the history of mankind, and bound to become the world’s economic power without 1/2-1 century from now.
Genaldar: So go ahead and feel suspicious but I guarantee when a country needs aid, or food, or medicine they call the US.
Nowadays, the European Union seems to get more requests than America.
jefro: Hey, China is not much better than pre-WW2 Japan. They are spying on us and that is why they are so weird. They are the worlds leader is theft.
Lets see: is there any proof of Chinese spying? None. Is there any proof of American spying? How about the spy plane that crash landed on Hainan when Bush just came into power?
Jefro: WHY THEN DOES EVERYONE WANT TO LIVE HERE???
Everybody? Wow, you logic is really wrapped.
jefro: No, go back to your crooked run down corrupt country and blame America for your problems. It was your cousin that killed and robbed from you not us!
Not really. For example, the Asian Economic Crisis was created by an American, and accroading to Forbes, worsen by an organization influenced greatly by America, the IMF and the World Bank. That’s one of the many examples.
how quickly we forget. remember NSA_KEY that was discovered a while back? do you really think it just disapeared other than in name?
who cares anyway? as long as they keep developing red flag linux i’m happy! 1 billion users can’t be wrong, eh?
after reading these i’m amazed. virtualy all of this is bullshit, but the most bullshit of them all goes to jefro – “WHY THEN DOES EVERYONE WANT TO LIVE HERE???”
jefro doesn’t get out (of the US) much, it seems! dude, maybe 1 in 100 want to come here, and even out of those most just want to visit new york, washington, and miami and then go back home.
remember, most people love their homeland just as much as you do! (WARNING – OT ramble follows!) myself i’ve traveled enough to realize that, although we make lots of money, our quality of life is pretty low if you compare us to most first world democracies. it’s hard to explain and it’s also taken me a long time to figure that out, but quality of life has very little to do with money! if you’re happy with money then more power to you, but me – i want something more! so i will work a couple more years to re-save some money and i will emmigrate again, but this time forever. i’m tired of 1 week per year of vacation. i’m tired of worrying about health benifits. my wife wants kids, but education in the US sucks. i’m tired of being asked during interviews my opinion on overtime and what are my goals (and being expected to reply with something that will profit the shareholders).
i’m willing to put in a solid days work, but jesus, these people want my life and are willing to give me a few hours off for myself and family. it should be the other way around!
but you, Jefro, have never traveled or lived in a foreign country (except maybe canada or mexico during your 1 week vacation) so you have no idea what i’m talking about. ignorance is bliss.
The CIA never attempted to kill any Australian Prime Minister
There’s a theory going around that the US was at least patly responsible for the sacking of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam in 1975. I have no idea how true that claim is.
Australia is a carbon copy of US per-Sept 11 anyway.
What do you mean by that, exactly? Our federal government is very pro-US, but I think most of the population is not.
Genaldar: So go ahead and feel suspicious but I guarantee when a country needs aid, or food, or medicine they call the US.
Nowadays, the European Union seems to get more requests than America.
In absolute terms, the USA is a large donor simply by virtue of its large economic size. In relative terms, however, it is quite small. As a percentage of GDP, the USA donates far less than any other OECD nation. I also hear that they have never paid their UN membership fees, which altogether would total many billions of dollars today.
I agree with all your other points.
WHY THEN DOES EVERYONE WANT TO LIVE HERE???
Because all they “know” about the US is the crap spewed out from Hollywood. It’s called cultural imperialism. People in poorer nations just want a better life for themselves, they don’t care where they go provided it is better. It’s much easier to be fixated on the US than on, say, Sweden (which arguably has a much higher standard of living) because they hear about the US all the time in movies and the media. In other words, the USA is merely a symbol of a better life. If 6000 people die in the US, everyone mourns. If it happens anywhere else, no-one gives a f*ck. More than half of all the countries in Africa are currently at war, and thousands of people die every day from the fighting, war, hunger and disease. Does anybody care?
There was already a boeing case as you know, so it is very well possible, though much more unlikely.
But there is another problem, if Chinese are really suspecting, then they can easily use pirated software which is not directly purchased from Microsoft, like some pirated software bought from US.
If I were Chinese I wouldn’t use software directly purchased from Microsoft in critical government offices to tell the truth. Because you never know. The history is full of such spying cases.
Notice from this topic, the Greek topic, and the 911 topic that many people are eager for an outlet for their political beliefs. Would you consider putting up a politically oriented clone of osnews? It sure would get alot of action. It would probably get more play than osnews does!
Yama: There’s a theory going around that the US was at least patly responsible for the sacking of Prime Minister Gough Whitlam in 1975. I have no idea how true that claim is.
I heard about this theory a lot of times, but an assination attempt?
Oh BTW, I’m not anti-USA. Never was. Never will. Don’t get me wrong, give me another country, some time to research, and I can bash it at full steam. All countries suck. Socialist. COmmunist. Almost capitalist. Big difference.
The only place I rather be is Sweden – boy is the standard of living there is high. Yeah, high taxes, so what? 🙂
Well its always nice to know that we’re disliked/hated. Its getting to be as trending as everyone’s distaste for Microsoft. The only thing I can really say since eveyone only seems to focus on how bad we are is – just don’t deal with us. I dunno, boycott McDonalds or whatever other horrific american presence there is in your country. You’ll be so much the better for not keeping our bad company.
Oh and as for most of the thread, I was born in 1981, I wasnt able to vote here until 1999. I’m glad that I’m getting blamed for the Vietnam War, the Korean War, things we did in WW2, things we did to the indians, not paying our taxes on tea, slavery, etc. I’ve always wondered if young Germans get blamed for the holocaust or if French children get blamed for the semi-pointless wars of devolution.
Anyway like I was saying we’re horrible horrible people. So please if you ever see one of us or even me feel free to walk up and punch us in redress; after all every bad thing that has ever happened to you or any of your people is obviously our fault. It is pointless to argue otherwise because in the end people never remeber the nice things you do – only the things your people have done to upset them.
Along those lines, I guess we should maybe be thanking you all because its obviously the world’s (minus america) higher moral ground that is keeping every country that can nuke us off the face of the planet from doing just that as a favor to everyone else.
technology advanced is not the same as civilised
QUOTE : Oh and as for most of the thread, I was born in 1981, I wasnt able to vote here until 1999. I’m glad that I’m getting blamed for the Vietnam War, the Korean War, things we did in WW2, things we did to the indians, not paying our taxes on tea, slavery, etc. I’ve always wondered if young Germans get blamed for the holocaust or if French children get blamed for the semi-pointless wars of devolution.
the people get blamed for the fundamentalists
you’ll survive
Nony: Dropping a nuclear bomb, the most dangerous bomb at that time, on an already pretty much defeated and weak enemy to score points with the local population and to impress Russia, isn’t much better..
Had Japan actually bothered to surrender, it would have been a different story. No, they wanted conditions, such as keeping their divine emperor. The US demanded an unconditional surrender.
This “pretty much defeated and weak enemy” was still succeeding in taking a lot of American lives at the time.
Anonymous: We did the same thing to our democratic protesters in the US in the RNC 2000.
Ran over “peaceful” protesters with tanks, eh? LOL… You prove an earlier point of mine.
esperantolo: How is the Tian An Men Square incident at all related to the topic?
Someone started bashing the US for lecturing the Chinese on human rights, and compared it a teen who just lost his virginity lecturing an elder. There was a response that “civilized” nations don’t massacre peaceful demonstrators.
rajan r: No, what brings USA into suspicion is that it does the opposite of what it claims it to do. People don’t suspect countries that outright does these acts because they are more open to it than the US government.
Right, and other nations don’t? You missed my point completely. — Sorry, but without the US, I highly doubt there would be very much democracy and freedom at all in Europe right now, let alone any hope for it in other parts of the world.
Even the Russians get to vote, because the US “won” the Cold War. Plus, they get billions of dollars of US aid. I don’t mind at all.
Innocents: the people US claim to be killed in Sept 11. So Japanese don’t have innocent people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while only US does?
I did not say the Japanese civilians weren’t innocent. I said they were being trained to fight the American invaders, down to the last child. The death toll in American soldiers & Japanese civilians would have been horrendous. There is ample film fottage of this training and propaganda, as well as evidence of what the Japanese army told civilians in outlying islands as the Americans invaded. Many civilians threw themselves from cliffs because they were told by the Japanese all sorts of fabrications as to what American invaders would do.
Bombing with the atom bomb probably saved lives, although we can never really know. All the same, I think it was a mistake.
Besides, contrary to your history books, the only reason why US attack Japan was to protect its interests especially in Asia. To Asians, having the West colonize them or Japan serves no difference (except to the Chinese…..).
Considering that the countries that came under American influence (including Japan) are now vastly wealthier and freer than their “independent” counterparts, and certainly better off than they were under Japanese colonization, to the point where they get rich selling items where we Americans can no longer compete, I can comfortably reject your propaganda.
Actually if you had bothered to read Jefro’s comment in total you would have seen that he had indeed LIVED in Japan. That qualifies as traveling overseas wouldn’t you say. And while it would be an exaggeration to say that everyone wants to live in the US it would certainly be true to say that an incredible number of people do indeed want to live in the US. If only for the economic, and political freedoms. Having lived in Japan and Korea myself, having traveled to several countries in Europe and Asia, many people have a love-hate relationship with the people from the US and the US government. In my travels I was struck by how I was received by a small minority with revulsion and with a much greater majority of people with at least curiousity if not friendship. What the heck this has to do with whether or not Microsoft has spy-code inserted into its operating systems I have no idea. I do know that espionage is very much alive and well as much or more than at anytime in history so I would understand why
the Chinese government would have problems allowing operating systems and applications from the US to handle the most sensitive documents at the highest levels of government.
–
As for whether or not the Bomb should have been dropped or not? Thats a discussion that could be handled in a book. My opinion is based on my experiences with the Japanese and the Koreans, Pictures from China circa WWII, the occupation of Korea, people killed in fire-bombings of Tokyo in 3 day period, Encroaching russian army. While unfortunate, it was necessary to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan was down but they would have fought to the last man as they did on Okinawa. The army had trained many many civilians how to fight. The fact that so many people died so quickly upsets everyone, myself included, the problem is that if you look at number of people killed in short periods of time during wars I can find many instances. All of them horrible. All of them gruesome. Hopefully never to be repeated again.
Mr. Doe: I’ve always wondered if young Germans get blamed for the holocaust […][/i
Most Germans (I have German relatives and a German classmate, I think I know what I’m saying), hate the Holocaust. Plus, it wasn’t Germans that placed Hitler as the ruler of Germany, the Nazis did.
Besides, when the Holocaust, all US could come up with was some statements, and “lending” some soldiers to Britain (I’m over-exaggerating here, ignore it :-). It was only after Pearl Harbour where they cared what happen.
And as for nuclear threats, US only tries to elimate direct threats against it (e.g. Cuba, Iraq, now Iran and North korea), while indirect threats (e.g. India, Pakistan, China) is left almost ignored.
Jack Perry: [i]Had Japan actually bothered to surrender, it would have been a different story. No, they wanted conditions, such as keeping their divine emperor. The US demanded an unconditional surrender.
Japan wanted to surrender with condition to ensure that Japan wouldn’t go *poof* with all its history.
For example, it wanted to keep the emperor as a divine figure, however US forced the emperor to claim he is not a deity. Not that the emperor has anything to do with the Meiji revolution, they just gave the green light.
Jack Perry: This “pretty much defeated and weak enemy” was still succeeding in taking a lot of American lives at the time.
Most of the American civilian lives lost in the war cause by Japan happen during the beginning of WW2, not the ending. Besides, US caused much much more deaths of Japanese civilians than vice versa.
Jack Perry: There was a response that “civilized” nations don’t massacre peaceful demonstrators.
That thing happen 13 years ago. In the last 13 years, US had kill more civilian lives than China, especially on the war on terrorism. Besides, Tiannamen Square caused a lot of Communism Party official’s their jobs.
Jack Perry: Sorry, but without the US, I highly doubt there would be very much democracy and freedom at all in Europe right now, let alone any hope for it in other parts of the world.
Britain was the main cause of much of the democracies in Europe, not the USA. As for freedom, the freedom they once fight for is very different now. They only push for these freedoms to be implemented in countries that don’t exactly benefit from it. Did the US government ever critized Saudi Arabia for its much hated monarchy, lack of religious freedom and lack of freedom of choice? Did US ever critized Singapore for its authorian rule, lack of political freedom and the court’s lack of independance from politics? Did US ever critized Israel for doing the same crime they critize Malaysia for? No.
Like any nation, they only care about their own country, their own people, their own interest. What angers most people outside US is that US acts as if they do care about non-US interests.
Jack Perry: Even the Russians get to vote, because the US “won” the Cold War. Plus, they get billions of dollars of US aid. I don’t mind at all.
Russian turn to democracy has nothing to do with US’s help. All US is helping now is preventing Russia from becoming a Soviet all over again.
Jack Perry: I did not say the Japanese civilians weren’t innocent. I said they were being trained to fight the American invaders, down to the last child.
The very same way as Americans are trained, though unofficially, to fight Japanese. Do you know how many innocent Japanese nationals that were in the US at that time, along with Germans and Italians, were sent to detention camps even though for a lot of them proof shows that they were innocent?
Jack Perry: Considering that the countries that came under American influence (including Japan) are now vastly wealthier and freer than their “independent” counterparts, and certainly better off than they were under Japanese colonization
But of course, you are comparing two systems in very different situations. Which itself is a bad comparison. You compare how good the economy in very different times. During Japanese colonization, there were sanctions from all over, and their only allies couldn’t possibly ship anything to Japan. Trade in SE Asia and East Asia broke down with Allies ships bombing almost every other cargo ship, preventing trade.
Japanese colonization could in fact be very much better than Western colonization, but I guess we would never know.
Jack Perry: I can comfortably reject your propaganda.
It is not a propaganda piece at all. This is the way I see things. Don’t agree with it? Fine, big deal. It is not like it is going to change anything.
Besides, because of Japanese conolization, Asia, especially South East Asia is to a point much better than they would without the Japanese. The Japanese conquest erroded the idea of Asians that the West is strong and unbeatable, as well as supreme, and caused a lot of natioalism movement to sprout. In fact, without the Japanese, Indonesia, Burma, Indochina, Philiphines, Singapore and Malaysia would never be independant.
—
To all US bashers: US isn’t holy. They aren’t here for the goodwill of man. They would only help you if you are in their direct interests. Live with it. The only country I know that isn’t like this is the Swiss.
To all US lovers: same as above, stop acting as if the world would be a worser place without the US.
rajan r: That thing [Tiananmen Square happen 13 years ago.[/i]
What, and China has changed their behavior since then?!? Apparently uou have never heard of Falun Dafa? Catholics and Protestants who suffer persecution from a government that wants to dictate what they can believe? Women who want more than one child?
Right, China is a land of freedom. Mm-hmm.
Most of the American civilian lives lost in the war…
I was talking about military lives. I don’t accuse the Japanese of brutalizing American civilians, mostly because they couldn’t get their hands on many.
Britain was the main cause of much of the democracies in Europe, not the USA.
Either you have never heard of the Marshall Plan, or of World War II, or you discount a bit much methinks.
Did the US government ever critized Saudi Arabia for its much hated monarchy, lack of religious freedom and lack of freedom of choice?
You are creating a straw man here. I did not say that the US has been pushing for democracy and freedom everywhere. As a matter of fact, a great many of us (myself included) are quite sore that our government allows our soldiers’ religious behavior to be dictated by the backwards tyrants they are protecting. — Who, apparently, are also responsible for spreading ignorant anti-Americanism through the globe by patronizing a fanatical sect of their religion.
Did US ever critized Singapore for its authorian rule, lack of political freedom and the court’s lack of independance from politics? Did US ever critized Israel for doing the same crime they critize Malaysia for?
Actually, I believe the answers there are yes, and yes. The US has especially criticized Israel before, although it doesn’t get much credit from anyone when it does: Arabs are offended by the existence of the State of Israel, and Israel supporters in the US generally believe Israel can do no wrong. So criticism of Israel happens, but it’s a lose-lose situation and no one pays attention.
Really though, if “US interests” were all that mattered, doesn’t it occur to you that we would drop Israel like a rock? What possible interest does Israel serve? None at all: they exacerbate our tensions with the oil-producing Arabs. Only this year could the Arab League even bring itself to admit the legitimacy of the State of Israel; that’s 54 years of doggedly trying to accomplish something that we opposed. American-Arab relations could have been much better had we not allowed Israel to continue to exist.
Russian turn to democracy has nothing to do with US’s help.
LOL… Again you contradict yourself immediately following. I won’t bother arguing when you do it well enough.
The very same way as Americans are trained, though unofficially, to fight Japanese.
“though unofficially” How amusing. I am not in any way trained to fight a Japanese person.
I’m quite aware of the concentration camps for Japanese in Western states. It is a repugnant moment of American history. It also has nothing to do with what we’re talking about, since (again) other nations are just as guilty. So: stay on topic.
You are wrong on one thing: Germans and Italians were not rounded up by and large. To begin with, there were too mayn!!! Some German-descendants even operated pro-Nazi Bunds in the US for a time that collaborated with Nazi infiltrators, and even after the FBI disrupted them most members continued to walk free.
But of course, you are comparing two systems in very different situations.
No, I am not comparing economic systems. I am comparing how the conqueror treated the conquered. The Americans set up a democratic constitutional government and then allowed Japan to live largely on its own. It did not have to pay tribute, or become a “territory” of the US, or suffer any other indignities aside from a temporary occupation. Likewise, the Americans did not treat the Koreans or the Filipinos as subhuman peoples.
You should read some of the interviews of Japanese soldiers after the war. One of them was surprised when he heard American soldiers dying: they cried out for their mothers, just as his fellow Japanese did. He wondered how could a subhuman people could act human? This is the result of what the Japanese government taught their people about all non-Japanese.
Japanese colonization could in fact be very much better than Western colonization, but I guess we would never know.
Apparently the Rape of Nanking wasn’t in the history books you read, nor were the Korean “comfort women”.
It is not a propaganda piece at all.
If not, then it is quite ignorant of history, to the point of making false assertions.
Besides, because of Japanese conolization, Asia, especially South East Asia is to a point much better than they would without the Japanese.
See “Rape of Nanking” and “Korean comfort women.” Among other atrocities.
The only country I know that isn’t like this is the Swiss.
Certain Jews who couldn’t retrieve money deposited in Swiss banks during WW2 would disagree with you.
To all US lovers: same as above, stop acting as if the world would be a worser place without the US.
It would be. There would be no UN; there would have been no counterbalance to Japanese, German, and Soviet expansionism. In the countries it conquers, the US tends to set up and protects democracy and freedom. Does it always? no. Is it perfect? no. Do its companies often exploit workers in foreign countries? yes. Do most Americans approve of their country’s mistakes? no.
By and large, most Americans are quite aware of how the countries we conquered in war are allowed to determine their own course of actions. They are also quite aware that the world doesn’t fit neatly into idealistic models. For crying out loud, look at how the Germans — whom we allowed to reunite, against Russia’s wishes — are giving us the finger on this Iraq thing, and to an extent the South Koreans too on relations with the North, after a half-century of our soldiers protecting them from aggression. That hypocrisy is part and parcel of freedom, and more power to them for it. Part of freedom means people disagree.
Of course Microsoft Windows has this capability (at least for machines connected to the internet). Windows XP SP1 even allows Microsoft to remotely delete applications that it feels do not properly do DRM – read the EULA, or see OSnews passim. Product Activation probably carries a similar risk.
So presumably it is technically feasible to use this publicised DRM backdoor to cripple *all* apps on enemy machines in the event of war.
Any end user who fears war between his country and the United States, or even an economic embargo, would have to be insane to rely upon Windows.
You f’ing euro-trash shitheads.
Hundreds of thousands of US soldiers died *on your land* fighting to protect your governments/families/farms/possessions from the Axis powers.
You’re *not* speaking German today, thanks to the USA.
How soon you liberal dickeaters forget.
Screw you all.
“Or dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people? Oh, wait, that was a “civilized” country”
The US Military was justified the japaneese invaded and occupied many US Territorys, including Alaska, read about the battle of Attu Alaska before you go slamming the US for dropping one in hiroshima and nagasaki.
“The September 11 attacks were a monstrous calling card from a world gone horribly wrong. The message may have been written by Osama bin Laden (who knows?) and delivered by his couriers, but it could well have been signed by the ghosts of the victims of America’s old wars.”
“The millions killed in Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia, the 17,500 killed when Israel — backed by the U.S. — invaded Lebanon in 1982, the 200,000 Iraqis killed in Operation Desert Storm, the thousands of Palestinians who have died fighting Israel’s occupation of the West Bank. And the millions who died, in Yugoslavia, Somalia, Haiti, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the Dominican Republic, Panama, at the hands of all the terrorists, dictators and genocidists who the American government supported, trained, bankrolled and supplied with arms.” — Arundhati Roy
East Indian activist and fighter for women’s rights. Author of The God of Small Things
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“The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government.” — Martin Luther King Jr.
April 4, 1967, exactly one year before he was murdered by the U.S. government.
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“The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” — George Orwell
Author of 1984
With all the senseless and barbaric death America has brought to the world, karma would say that a mere 3,000 lives is something to be thankful for.
#p
Travis: The US Military was justified the japaneese invaded and occupied many US Territorys, including Alaska, read about the battle of Attu Alaska before you go slamming the US for dropping one in hiroshima and nagasaki.
Right….. when USA occupied the Philipines… that was “okay”. But when Japanese invaded Alaska…. bang bang – Hiroshima and Nagasaki dissapears.
The millions killed in Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia, the 17,500 killed when Israel — backed by the U.S. — invaded Lebanon in 1982, the 200,000 Iraqis killed in Operation Desert Storm, the thousands of Palestinians who have died fighting Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.
This is starting to descend into a sad parody of anti-Americanism. One wonders if the people posting here have confused history and propaganda.
1. Documents released since the fall of the Soviet Union have revealed that Stalin encouraged the North Koreans to invade South Korea. The anti-Americans naturally think this is all America’s fault.
2. More people were killed by the Viet Cong than by Americans.
3. Speaking of Cambodia, ever hear of Pol Pot? there’s an anti-American for you.
4. Funny that when people cry out against Israel’s actions, they never speak of the massacres committed by Arabs themselves in Lebanon — both Christian and Muslim — or about the Palestinian terrorist groups sheltered by Arabs in Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere. Funny that they never once point out that the Arabs for 50+ years refused even to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, that Yasser Arafat’s own consitution called for one Palestinian State “from the river [Jordan] to the [Mediterranean] Sea.” In short, no Israel.
What a lot of hypocrisy anti-Americans somehow manage to wrangle into a semblance of self-righteousness!
In America, to tell the difference between ‘history’ and ‘propaganda’, is a difficult thing to do, especially given the completely non-objective mainstream media.
Most history text books printed after the early 1950’s have been severely edited to whitewash history in favor of America and her allies. Want the real story of World War II? Better find an old history book. When you go to a good school in America, they take the old history books out of a locked cabinet and make you sign a pledge to take care of them as they are the last of their kind.
Vietnam was a place Americans were very evil. Instead of your obviously fabricated assertion, here is some sworn testimony from the United States Senate:
“I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. …
“They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam, in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.” — John Kerry
Navy lieutenant, leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War
in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
April 23, 1971
I cannot imagine things being any different in Cambodia. Action war figures like ‘Pol Pot’ are always the case. The media creates some larger than life super villain that America has to go kill, for the safety of the world.
Yet years later, we find the super villain never existed or if he existed, was just a small scale hoodlum not bent on world destruction, but on maintaining his hold on his little land.
Heaven forbid that little hoodlum be sitting on a lot of oil or other natural resources. For America, ‘global policeman’, has come to put things to right. To ‘free’ those resources from the hands of ‘evil’. And then creates some sort of “moral” justification for homicide, culturicide, genocide, and theft.
Israel is a complex topic. There are very different views on its history, depending on who you are talking to. Within the community of Jewish people, you have dramatically different idealogies. Zionists and non-Zionists, for instance. Each group has its own philosophies about the Jewish state, even widely varying concepts of morality.
For instance, how often are the anti-war Jewish people remembered, respected, and honored in the American press and media? Why is it so difficult for American Jews — so many of which love life and freedom — to disagree with Sharon’s hardline tactics?
http://www.tikkun.org/
As for what you mentioned, your history seems rather one-sided. Let us recall that the entire land space from the river Jordan to the Mediterranean sea was indeed Palestine, recognized throughout the world. You can look at any of the old maps and see this as a fact.
At the time, there was no state or land called “Israel”. So of course the Palestinian constitution would show Palestine as including itself.
It is the Balfour Declaration, post World War I, that gave birth to the Zionist state:
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pp0
To continue our discussion of history, there is no heritage to the state of Israel before the land apportionment that took place after World War II. It didn’t exist at the time of Jesus. And it certainly didn’t exist before that, during the time of the Roman Empire. Nor at the time of the Turks.
Palestine during the time of Jesus:
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/jesusandwomen/palestine.stm
How the map looked during the Roman empire:
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/maps/empire.gif
Okay, so much for history. Let’s look at today:
When it comes to the violence in the Middle East, let us look at problem of the moment, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.
As you know, Israel occupies lands that it stole by force from Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. And the native people of these lands are trying to get their land back. This is the real foundation of what is happening.
The terrorism in the conflict exists because it works to achieve Israel’s ends. It is well known around the world (but not in the American mainstream media) that Israel created Hamas, the terrorist organization that always has a timely suicide attack to justify an act of overwhelming force by the Israeli military against the Palestinians.
Just as the United States is using the “war on terror” to justify brutal acts of aggression and the killing of 34,000 civilians in Afghanistan, so does Israel use their own “war on terror” to justify their genocide of the Palestinian people. There are 450 U.N. resolutions on this topic of Palestine. It is a world record. And almost all of these resolutions have to do with the atrocities committed by Israel. Read them for yourself. Everything is documented.
Here is a quote from one of the Prime Ministers of Israel:
“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war… We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today…” — Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli Prime Minister
Even the women of Israel are tired of Israeli terrorism and want Ariel Sharon to be held responsible for his atrocities:
Prosecute Sharon for war crimes, Israeli women say
“In an astonishing letter to the Palestinian survivors of the 1982 Sabra and Shatila camps massacres, nine Israeli women’s peace groups have told Palestinians in Beirut that they support their efforts to indict the Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, for war crimes committed against them almost exactly 20 years ago.”
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=336…
As we sit around the campfire, we are just people. Let us talk honestly between ourselves and share this world, peacefully. Let us honor each other and honor our home, our shining planet.
And let us find a way to achieve a lasting peace in the Middle East.
#p
“I came to America because of the great, great freedom which I heard existed in this country. I made a mistake in selecting America as a land of freedom, a mistake I cannot repair in the balance of my lifetime.” — Albert Einstein,
1947