KDE 4.0.3 has been released. “The KDE Community today announced the immediate availability of KDE 4.0.3, the third bugfix and maintenance release for the latest generation of the most advanced and powerful free desktop. KDE 4.0.3 comes with an impressive amount of bugfixes and improvements. Most of them are recorded in the changelog. KDE continues to release updates for the 4.0 desktop on a monthly basis. KDE 4.1, which will bring large improvements to the KDE desktop and application will be released in July this year.”
Looks like the KDE pillars are starting to give fruits, I by my self, Im amazed of quality is getting is so litle time.
And comparing KDE’s infrastructure to other like Windows Vista, OSX, GNOME, etc, KDE is ahead. From now any change need it, will just be trivial thanks to the very studied infrastructure.
I had my reservations in the begining but now I have confidence in the project.
I tip my hat to the KDE developers/testers/translator team.
Edited 2008-04-02 21:41 UTC
I agree with you, but I will still wait for 4.1 before I give it another go…
How so? I see the sycophants agree, but do you have any side-by-side comparisons?
(not to pick on you, but I see the same comment from the other side being immediately challenged 🙂
Edited 2008-04-02 22:29 UTC
You can note the difference trying to develop an application for each platform, for example:
Windows Vista: The use of to many archaich techniques like Messages and heavy use of interfaces.
Mac OSX: It lacks in clarity of the framework, the use of objetive C doesn’t help eather.
GNOME: Despite having many bindings, the lack of a central core of shared libraries is the weak point, the code has a high coupled level, they are getting better thougt.
KDE 4: Centralized and shared libraries with a loosely coupled framework that boost the code reuse, better architecture like MV.
Is just my experience as a programmer.
Uh, what? You don’t have to code in MFC or the Win32 API on windows. If you find message maps archaic and bothersome, you can always find something else that scratches your itch. Even Qt.
Define lack of clarity? As far as I am concerned, the Mac as a platform provides a wide plethora of frameworks that are widely documented and intuitive to use. Of course, one mans intuitive is another mans nightmare so YMMV. However, I do agree that the choice of Objective-C is a strange one but once you get used to the syntax and terminology, you find that it is actually quite good.
Failing all that, you can still fall back to using other libraries like Qt to program on the Mac.
I understand that this is a KDE news item and as such the KDE centric users and developers will be out in force. Even so, there is no need to spread nonsense about other platforms just to make your own look better.
p.s. I use GNOME but I don’t develop for it, so I’ll leave that to some GNOME developer to argue the point with you.
Uhm, just because you agree about the technical merits of one piece of software compared to another does not make one a sycophant. Before calling some one a “a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite.” (dictionary.com) try doing your own research and then give your arguments on why you disagree.
Either way, my preference is KDE, and I look forward to KDE 4.1, that’s when I will make the switch from 3.5. The benefits?
Because of QT4, a lot of my favorite KDE apps will be fully functional on Windows, *nix’s and OS X. That makes me very happy. Also, QT4’s performance and memory footprint is much improved over previous versions, which is always a good thing.
Plasma is the GUI, and when 4.1 comes out, it will mean a much more versatile and customizable desktop, which, in my opinion has always been one of KDE’s strengths over it’s competitors. Compared to KDE, Windows and Gnome’s customization potential is only superficial, and OS X’s is almost non-existent. (I expect to get modded to hell for that statement)
Kwin, the KDE window manager, now supports compositing, which is a godsend, as Compiz can be a real pain in the butt to get working. It’s gotten a lot better, but not having to change your WM to use compositing is a big win for KDE, especially in light of the competitions heavy requirements (I’m looking right at you Vista).
Solid is the hardware API that abstracts the underlying hardware APIs (Hal, Bluez and so forth) into one developer friendly and sane framework. Because of Solid, The underlying hardware technologies can be swapped out and replaced with new technology, without breaking KDE apps.
That’s just the 4 major ones IMO, there is a lot more in KDE4, and when KDE 4.1 comes out, I think it’s going to kick ass.
Edited 2008-04-02 22:54 UTC
Calm down and chill out. I never said I disagreed. I asked for justification, because the opinion stated was not substantiated (it since has been). The’sycophants’ I referred to were those who voted up a comment that came across as mere opinion without facts. I see many posts on KDE4 threads, singing it’s praises over other development platforms without little explanation why it’s better.
Ironic that you ask me to give arguments, when that’s what I was asking the OP to do.
For the record, I developed for a long time with Qt3 and 4 on five different platforms and loved it because of it’s clean, consistent object model, great documentation and value of pragmatism over ‘standard practice’. It also is the best C++ UI toolkit I have ever seen
I’ve seen a bit of the KDE libs, but not developed much with them.
That’s not ironic, I wanted to know why you were calling people sycophants, without any valid reasons, and I still don’t see any valid reason.
If that’s the case, your original response was just trolling, and I have to stop feeding trolls. Sounds like you already knew the reasons, and if that is so, modding the OP up would have been the right response.
I gave my reason if you read carefully. If you don’t accept it, then that’s fine, but don’t claim I didn’t give it. I see your pride was hurt by the ‘sycophant’ comment and that is a shame, but you really shouldn’t take things so personally, since it was not aimed specifically at you, but generally those that ‘me too’ to unsubstantiated claims. Maybe the shoe fits…
Not a troll at all, but since your feelings are easily hurt, I’m sure that ridiculous label will help you in validating them.
You seemed to miss my point completely. I’m _very_ familiar with Qt, not at all well-versed with the KDE libs. I also have a lot of experience with the other platforms mentioned, I see a lot of positive aspect in .NET and Cocoa too. I wanted to know why someone thought the KDE development platform is so much better, with substantial examples or at least some explanation (which I got by-the-way. Thank you Hiev). I have every right to ask someone to explain why they think something is better.
If you consider that trolling, it’s a hard world out there. I suggest you toughen up. You’re going to get ‘trolled’ a lot.
I didn’t miss your point, You didn’t explain your point until AFTER I called you on your statments. My feelings weren’t hurt, but I still don’t see any justification for your language, especially as you were not adding anything to the discussion, just throwing around insults.
Also, I gave you the reasons that you were looking for. Not knowing your background, your original statements just made you look like some zealot. That’s my problem. If you had of stated your QT background in your original post, you might have not come off as such an arrogant person, biased individual.
My “language”? You have thrown around many more insults than me. Count them and grow up.
“Some zealot” Biased? And what exactly would be my cause? What is my bias? A zealot for justification? OK, I’m a zealot then.
It seems your pride was hurt because I apparently insulted your favorite platform (which of course I didn’t). You’re the only zealot I see here.
I did not have to state my Qt background, to ask why someone preferred KDE to other frameworks. I just chose to.
BTW: “Look up arrogance”. Someone who assumes their opinions should go uncontested. That’s arrogance.
“BTW: “Look up arrogance”. Someone who assumes their opinions should go uncontested. That’s arrogance.”
No, according to Merriam Websters, Arrogance is defined as:
an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions
I would say your initial statements were both overbearing and presumptuous. Presumptuous because you just assumed that people that agreed with the OP’s assertions on the superiority of KDE4 were sycophants because they did not back up their opinions (doesn’t make them invalid, just unprovable at the time) and overbearing because of your language and attitude.
“You have thrown around many more insults than me. Count them and grow up. ”
I don’t think I have insulted you at all. I called you a troll, but that is not always an insult, and it seems to me to fit your behavior. You however have called people names, told me to grow up, tried to claim that my feelings were hurt, and that you hurt my pride.
My pride and feelings were never in danger. I was arguing for other peoples’ rights to state their opinions without being called names. It’s that simple.
If you choose to continue this discussion, feel free to contact me at the email address in my profile, I would prefer to take this off the forum, so everyone else can get back to the topic at hand without our distractions.
There are other dictionaries than Merriam Webster, but that’s irrelevant. I was giving an example, not a definition. Comprehension of the definition would validate my example.
Too bad you are more interested in being pedantic.
I never said they were invalid. I think that’s the problem. What I wrote and what you infer are two different things. I used a single word, ‘sycophant’ and you are making a mountain out of a molehill, lecturing me about “language” and “attitude”. It’s kind of petty, the fact that you ignore the thrust of what I was asking and get hung up on that word. Tell you what, maybe it was too strong. I’ll take it back.
I’m really sorry about the sycophant accusation. I humbly apologize for criticizing no individual in particular and will make my insults more focussed in the future, so the wrong people won’t take offense.
Now you have no “language” and “attitude” to rant about. Am I allowed to ask people to back up their facts now?
Yes, you’re totally innocent (rolls eyes). You never get in someone’s face unless they’re asking for it, I’m sure.
Not really. You took it all very seriously. The OP didn’t take offense (and nor should he), but you clearly felt slighted. It’s very noble of you to “argue for the rights” of anonymous modders, but really – all this drama is not necessary and let’s not pretend that it’s about anyone else but yourself.
No thanks, I feel distracted enough.
Edited 2008-04-04 04:07 UTC
“but really – all this drama is not necessary and let’s not pretend that it’s about anyone else but yourself. ”
I’m not pretending, it’s about you
Well there’s nothing like getting the last word eh 🙂
No mod down from me, sir, and I use OSX as my main desktop, along with Kubuntu and Windows. OSX isn’t very configurable for looks, but its keystroke configuration is actually the best I’ve seen, and I’m hoping to see certain key aspects of the dock copied.
The main thing I like about the dock in OSX is this: just because you close all windows for an application doesn’t mean it’s closed. It’s still in the dock and running. You can Command-Tab to it at any time and nearly always, Command-N will bring up a new window.
The next benefit? Command-Tab isn’t switch between windows, it’s switch between applications. Command-` lets you switch between the windows of the currently running application. I started using OSX 2.5 years ago after a lot of time in Windowmaker and KDE in Linux and some Windows purgatory too, and I don’t know why everyone’s copying the Windows Alt-tab now.
KDE is the most configurable, as well as it should be, but the moment it can be configured to imitate this one piece of hard-set OSX behavior, I will be far more comfortable with it.
I see you threw in OS X to give KDE some credibility. You think KDE’s Core API set is better? We’ll agree to disagree because there is no f***’in way it’s on par with OS X and it’s overall design for Desktop Environment.
I agree that OS X APIs are at least as good if not better than the ones available in KDE from the perspective of quickly developing powerful applications. However OS X APIs are only available on OSX, which makes them less than useful for anyone wanting to use more than that platform. For my own apps I want them to be usable no matter what platform I happen to be on. That unfortunately rules out anything done purely for OSX (as well as other nice APIs like the .NET class library, which contrary to all the hype out there, is not even close to cross platform).
Pitch in and help everyone finish GNUstep. There are plenty of SoC projects to go around.
I could, but why bother when Qt/KDE gives me the same quality programming environment for no work?
I am inherently lazy after all..
Edited 2008-04-03 03:39 UTC
So use Qt on OS X and Windows? I fail to see how that is a big issue in and of itself? Everything people have been saying in this thread about portability, extendability, etc has less to do with KDE and more to do with Qt.
KDE 4 is a promising release. It is able to stand on its own merits. Why do people feel the need to do a crapper on other platforms in an attempt to boost their own preferred platform?
I do.
Neither do I, you misread this thread somewhere. The point of discussion was Qt/KDE Vs APIs on OSX, and while OSX is nice, if you don’t want to be constrained to one platform you can’t really use it.
Absolutely, but that’s a technical detail. Doesn’t change the conclusion.
Go back and read this thread again, its not about dumping on other platforms at all. Just pointing out the strengths of the framework.
That’s the point I’m trying to make. If you call native KDE libraries and not the Qt ones, there goes your portability. This is the same thing that happens if you call the Core APIs on OS X. How is that different?
If you want portable code, you write in Qt. Therefore, writing KDE code doesn’t automatically make your code portable in the same way that writing OS X code doesn’t mean your code is not portable. It’s all about not using the native APIs directly, accessing them through something like Qt instead.
http://windows.kde.org/
http://techbase.kde.org/index.php?title=Projects/KDE_on_Mac_OS_X
Also this:
Not so. I think you have a misunderstanding here. The aim for KDE 4 is to be useable on all desktop platforms. That is KDE, not just Qt.
There is already beta versions of KDE 4 for Windows and OSX, and I think there are projects underway for GNU/Solaris and for the BSD variants as well.
http://freebsd.kde.org/
http://solaris.kde.org/
Edited 2008-04-04 09:15 UTC
Edit: Oops, the info has already been posted, please ignore.
Well its different because KDE4 apps run on MacOSX and Windows. Note that KDE4 apps on OSX are native, they don’t depend on the X server at all.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080123-kde-goes-cross-platfo…
Edited 2008-04-04 15:15 UTC
..the icons having that god awful frame around them. Obviously it is there for a reason, as it lets you configure the icon. Why can I not just right click as always, which still works? If not for that annoyance, I would really like KDE 4. Everything else rocks.
I think it’s quiet a innovative way having icon controls around them and the plasmoids, but as I remember the box only stayed in 4.0 (I’m sure the alphas/beta had them appear when you mouse over).
I’ve tried KDE 4.0.3 and it’s much faster and less buggy for sure, I like the monthly releases which I try each time via Ubuntu repos. I can see the potential in KDE 4.x and 4.1 looks promising indeed.
Edited 2008-04-02 22:46 UTC
Why not right-click? Think touchscreen interfaces … as I read somewhere mentioned (and attributed to aaron siego) that its tough to right-click on touchscreen (not the exact words.)
“Why not right-click? Think touchscreen interfaces … as I read somewhere mentioned (and attributed to aaron siego) that its tough to right-click on touchscreen (not the exact words.)”
I can agree with that to an extent, the problem is how many touch screen PC’s are really out there? Very few compared to normal laptops or desktops that do not have touch screens. If touch screens were extremely popular I would agree wholeheartedly, fact of the matter they are not as they are a niche product.
Touch screens are now everywhere, phones, tablet pcs and even in cameras.
And since plasma is portable to any of them we may say is touchscreen-ready.
Edited 2008-04-03 00:04 UTC
“Touch screens are now everywhere, phones, tablet pcs and even in cameras.
And since plasma is portable to any of them we may say is touchscreen-ready.”
I should have been more specific. Not very common in the personal computer world, as Tablet PC’s are a niche. Phones, Camera’s and Kiosks do not fall into that definition IMO. I can easily see a use for Plasma in those devices, no argument there, I would just like to be able to turn it off since it annoys me.
The new version of the EEEPC is rumored to have a touchscreen.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/19/eee-pc-gets-modded-with-a-touchs…
uh, what? Some dude mods his eeepc by adding a touchscreen, and that means the eeepc will be getting them? Now if you can show me a link about Asus addins touchscreens..
That like saying there are rumours Microsoft will be releasing the Xbox360 in laptop form.
http://benheck.com/Games/Xbox360/x360_page_5.htm
Or here you go: rumours that some computer manufacturer is going to start selling mice made out of actual dead mice. Some guy modded it! There are rumours! http://hackedgadgets.com/2007/04/28/computer-mouse-using-a-dead-mou…
*edit* better link
Edited 2008-04-03 06:03 UTC
Ask and ye shall receive…
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20080325PD226.html
From that link:
“Asustek’s 8.9-inch second-generation Eee PC lineup will include touchscreen panels and possible GPS support, with shipments expected to begin in May or June, according to Kevin Lin, vice president of Asustek’s sales department”
Edited 2008-04-03 06:54 UTC
http://clumpc.com/?p=182
“Confirmed: 8.9 inch EeePC featuring Touchscreen (Maybe GPS) in May/June”
Edited 2008-04-03 07:20 UTC
“The new version of the EEEPC is rumored to have a touchscreen.”
I am still out on the whole EEE PC fad. I have yet to see one in use, or know anyone who has a remote interest in one. Those would be great for kids beginning to learn computers though, as they would not need much disk space at all.
Well its cheap, its tiny and light making it ultraportable, it runs a full normal OS (unlike the Nokia N800 or the iPhone), it has a decent sized keyboard, and its awesome quiet. I love mine. I can do real development on it if I have to, it has an integrated webcam which I’m using to build a head tracking system, and we’ve received a lot of interest from the disability community for its application as a wheelchair mounted communication device.
In short, the EeePC rocks, and its triggering a revolution in ultraportable laptops.
Still waiting for a good pre-configured KDE 4.0 based distribution… I’m a die-hard Kubuntu user, but their KDE 4 flavor is terrible, I just can’t use it when 3.5 looks and works much better out of the box. I don’t want to spend weeks just getting it to look right.
Maybe there’s another Debian based distro that has a good KDE 4 setup… anyone know of any? Obviously I haven’t bothered to look for myself heh.
Edited 2008-04-02 23:06 UTC
If you use Kubuntu and want it to become better (especially in regard to KDE 4), then please vote for it at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/478/. Unfortunately, this is being actively voted down right now, and there is only one full time developer working on Kubuntu (Jon Riddell). Note that he’s been fantastic at maintaining Kubuntu, but he’s still only one guy. If enough positive votes come in, then maybe Canonical will see a good reason to invest in another developer (at least that’s my hope).
Try openSUSE. Because SUSE was a KDE supporter from the first hour their KDE integration is IMHO one of the best.
But… it is slow, last time I tried, and the default desktop has way too many programs installed, I really like what canonical does with KDE, but kubuntu doesn’t have yast, so well it’s difficult to say which one I’d prefer, I suppose I’ll try 11.0 again, hoping it gained speed, and that it installs all drivers (including proprietary ones, I didn’t buy hardware to not use it, just because the drivers are closed source :s).
Is there a livecd with current version I can download and play?
KDE four live, you can choose between 4.1pre or 4.0.3 stable (4.1pre is much much better)
Thanks
Im not talking of Desktop desing, Im talking of framework architecture, is not the same.
Certaintly OSX has powerfull libraries but the way those librearies interact betwen them is the architecture. And in my experience KDE’s architecture is well planed.
For example, code reuse to make one application multiplatform in the most simplier way.
From the begining KDE’s architecture was designed to be dynamic enough to face the different issues that would face in the feature, and that’s the way we (programmers) are all trying to make the things now, because now we now that programming is expensive.
Is not a surprice to get the impression that it has a better architecture, because is newer than OSX and with new programing paradigms.
In my opinion, KDE is doing now what Apple, Microsoft and GNOME will have to do some time.
Edited 2008-04-03 00:28 UTC
If you’re comparing Carbon to KDE I’ll grant KDE has a leg up.
If you want to compare the dynamic frameworks of OS X Cocoa to KDE you show me that not only did you never develop for NeXTstep/Openstep, work in this industry when OOA/OOD was being called a pipe dream and all we need is Procedural Programming and C, and that you aren’t following closely how the industry adopts more and more of Apple’s Development efforts.
Trolltech was smart to start a 64 bit Cocoa Qt. GTK+ was smart to focus on WebKit.
Adobe is going to have to finally bite the bullet and go Cocoa, along with Microsoft like Intuit has done.
In a year we’re going to see LLVM vs. GCC wars on this board and everyone’s going to be pissed instead of being thrilled with competition.
I was trying to write a reply to your post and then I realized that you provided no solid or substantial points for be to begin arguing with.
How is code reuse encouraged by KDE and not other platforms? If you call KDE specific APIs, you are going to have to rewrite them when you port. This is the same on all platforms. If you are coding in Qt, by definition your code is going to be cross platform until you start calling native libraries. This applies to the Mac, Windows and any other platform Qt runs on.
Reading your posts on this topic, I’m guessing that you’re saying KDE apps are portable and how KDE has the best libraries boils down to one factor: Qt. Incidentally, Qt runs just as well on other platforms.
Looks like I haven’t explained my self as I should.
There is an abism between a toolkit and the architecture aplied to that toolkit. Qt is not the relevant part here, wxWidgets can do most of the same, but is not about the toolkit and not about the API, is about the architecture you aply to all of them in conjntion to work together.
You have API, great, how can the API work towards my needs? will the API allow me to apply certains patterns that in some time will allow me to get rid of just some parts and allow me to exchange some parts for another ones easily w/o the need to start everything from the beginning?
You see? That’s the question that modern architecture asks and that is what Windows 7 will be and KDE is doing now.
The toolkit is just a smart part of a whole.
Well, concerning Windows 7 I think my crystal ball shows me quite clearly what is going to happen:
The techies who really know their stuff will want to make it this way, but then the marketeers will begin their compatibility-dance, and most of the cleanlyness will evaporate.
Downloading the packages now, I am curious to see it this one is more usable than the previous builds… I’m not expecting a miracle of fully capable/stable desktop but since I’ve tried 4.0, 4.0.1 and 4.0.2 I figure I should give this one a shot.
I just installed this on my Gentoo machine.
Coming from Xfce this is what I have to say about it.
The menu is horrible and un-intuitive.
When you mouse over one of the categories on the bottom the content changes. Very weird and doesn’t make much sense to me anyway.
To log out you need to hover over one of the things on the bottom of the menu to get a list of power down, restart, logout. Then when you click on logout, you get a nice dialog asking you if you want to power down, restart, or log out. Kinda silly, I’m sure it’ll be fixed.
Also, compositing effects don’t work for me. Compiz Fusion works fine on the same computer. With KWin compositing I can get the expose working, and the windows are transparent while being dragged, but if I enable any other effect my screen freezes and I need to restart X.
The boxes around desktop icons are annoying.
I couldn’t find a way to make dolphin use double instead of single clicks.
What is good about it is that the Oxygen theme looks real slick, but only KDE or QT apps get it.
So…right now xfce beats it hands down on everything.
Xfce + compiz is just extra.