“There is an idea going around that Linux is not just for geeks … some say that a good distro, like Mandrake, is easy enough for most ordinary PC users to adopt. I want to tell you my experience…” The editorial is published at NewsForge.
On Whether it Takes a Geek to Love Linux
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
It takes me about a month to get a my system “done” once i install linux on it (debian of course). This includes getting all the hardware, and all the software to work. I mean, the crucial stuff works after very few days, but customizing and such, takes time.
When i started using windows i HATED it, i thought it was horrible, i wanted to go back to DOS so badly, but i got used to it after a while, and it felt natural. It’s the same thing with linux, or other oses, they take time, which ppl just dont seem to have now days.
I didnt like the fact that the author wanted to remain anonymous though, i think that showed that he was a bit ashamed of himself.
There is an idea going around that Linux is not just for geeks … some say that a good distro, like Mandrake, is easy enough for most ordinary PC users to adopt. I want to tell you my experience…
Now, he said…
And finally I decided, I am spending all my time trying to make the friggin computer _work_ and precious little time doing anything useful with the #%&* thing.
And so I gave up. I am a pretty ornery fellow, and I rarely give up on _anything_. Tail dragging between my legs, I shifted back over to Win2000. goes on.. and finally got it works…..
I don’t think, he understands about the normal home (non-geek) users? Most of home (non-geek) users don’t way to have the problem, which they rather everything to be done by the automatic mostly such as drivers, X and etc. Unless, I am thinking the different thing? I just feel that this article is misleading the home (non-geek) users, so what do you think of this?
🙂
I sympathize with the writer. I admin both Windows and Linux systems. I started out on an Apple II, then MS-DOS 5, then Windows 3.1, then all the succeeding windows & various Macs. Did my first Linux install in 1996.
Beginnings are always the hardest part. People raised on Windows and Mac forget how long their learning curve was. (I’ve never bonded with Macs, they annoy me, though OS X is mighty interesting.) Two weeks with either is baby steps- it is most certainly not enough to become proficient.
Many things on Linux are still harder than on other platforms. Much of this is due to the lack of cooperation from hardware vendors, for device drivers, and software vendors, who refuse to make *nix ports. Much of this is due to Linux being immature in the business desktop space, while very advanced in networking and serving.
Linux is more complex than Windows, it does many many more things. That adds to the learning curve. The big difference is it’s all tweakable, and all visible- most of Windows is hidden, you’ll never be able to customize it. You can’t even customize an installation like you can with Linux, Windows is all or nothing.
Saying Windows is easy is wrong. Most users do not install or administer it. I get tired of this false basis for comparison. Yes, installing and running devices and applications is much easier than on Linux. But installing and administering Windows itself is more difficult than Linux, and way more mysterious. Too many secrets.
All computers are for geeks- there is no mythical “Uncle Fred” who can build one from scratch without prior knowledge or experience. That is such an unrealistic concept, but people seem to accept it for Windows and Macs. It just isn’t true.
With SuSE, all my hardware works out of the box.
And I never have to defragment and other nonsense.
“there is no mythical “Uncle Fred” who can build one from scratch without prior knowledge or experience”
Actually it really doesn’t prior knowledge to build a computer from scratch. The PCI cards only fit in the PCI slots, the processor only fits in the processor slot, if you have an AGP card it only fits in its slot. The memory has asymmetric notches so you only put in its slot the right way. Its easy enough that monkey’s could probably do it.
I think you are right on. In fact, i think most people writing about linux does not understand normal users, because it seems like their equal themselves and their tasks with what normal users do, which i very much find is not the case.
I don’t know any normal users who would ever install a system by themselves. Yet many of the articles describing the normal user is focusing mostly on installation. Same goes with hardware setup and drivers. I know the argument is that “well, linux needs to be installed before they can use it”, but that just proves my point even more, as i don’t really know ANY normal user who know enough about linux to even consider having it installed, without them knowing a person would could do it for them.
Most normal users i know doesnt even know how to unzip a file with winzip unless they are told how to do it. They don’t know how to install a program either, or more important, even how to get more software.
No, the normal user as they are usually described are really somewhat advanced users, and often users who are interested in the computer. It is possible that this kind of users is the majority of users, but i somewhat doubt that. I think the majority of computer users arent interested in computers at all, and only use them either because they have to, or because it makes some things easier for them.
I would dare claim that for this kind of users, a linux system set up properly by someone else, would be just as good, if not better, than a windows system, at least better than a windows 9x system as it cant easily be broken.
As for the slightly more advanced users, i dont think linux is ready for them yet, or maybe that they arent ready for linux yet. If they don’t need more software than what they can get from an apt (im currently using apt-get with redhat 8, but graphical frontends exists) repository or the install cd’s, then they might be ok, but if they want to surf around and download software and stuff from all over the net, then they will be dissapointed, as this is not trivial.
Yet it only took me about 10 minutes to install ogle, xosd-xmms, xmms-mp3, xmms-itouch, grip, and mplayer (all things that i didnt get through redhat), which made me able to play mp3 and ogg files, watch dvds, watch divx and avi files, convert cds to mp3 or ogg, and use the multimedia keys on my logitech keyboard. So it is not hard to get such things to work, WHEN you learn your way around the system.
And i think this is the main point. I think linux really could be useful to most people, the biggest problem is that for a lot of people, it takes too long time to get used to the system and to get things setup properly. I hope some of the big name distros wuold do something about that. I especially think that redhat 8.0 is a very nice base system that with just a little bit of polishing could be a very attractive system for a large variety of people. And the good thing about open source is that if redhat or others don’t do this, then others could fork their distros and do it for them.
>> until every normal Linux Distro
>> works as easily as the “normal” PC
>> downloads, it seems most unlikely
>> that Linux can make a serious
>> intrusion into the standard office
>> or desktop environment.
Mac already does that, but its market is still shrinking.
Anyway, whatever! What else can you expect from a TECHNICAL person who has stayed with Unix boxes for over 30 years, and still, by his own admission, doesn’t know how to use them? Does he sound like the curious type to you?
Normal people used PCs when it was running Windows 3.1, or even DOS. I remember learing Windows straight from the BOOK, and it didn’t happen in one week. I don’t know about you, but I had to learn such things as how and when to single/double click, how to save a file, how to print, etc, etc. And no, I couldn’t learn it all in one week.
These days, people apparently can’t use anything unless it works exactly like what they already know. People are becoming more like sheep. Making a little effort to learn new stuff is almost anathema. Is this another sympton of this abdication of personal responsibility that is gradually invading North American culture?
Great comments — Very intelligent and more insightful than that article itself!
I’d like to throw in a financial comment about the issue. People have been comparing the price of Linux, perhaps $40 for lean boxed versions, with the price of WinXPPro, which is about $200. Well that price of Linux is the same whether you are upgrading or installing for the first time. But that price of Windows is only for an upgrading. Isn’t the price of a new WinXPPro license many hundreds of dollars?
$300 or $200 for an upgrade.
i don’t see why businesses would upgrade to winxp in the first place…
as for article, i agree. i took me too long to do the usual things i take for granted on win2k. then having mdk9 running fluxbox and using more than 3x more memory and taking too long to boot really had me scrambling back home.
I’m surprised that you mention too long to boot. One thing that I really dislike about WinXP is that upon booting it gives me my desktop about 30 seconds before I can do anything with it. At least in Gnome or KDE I can watch the splash screen and know what’s happenning and then be able to immediately use my desktop once that dissappears, where as in windows I just have to try clicking on the start menu until is decides it’s time to respond.
I would agree that there are several things that just aren’t as easy as they are in OSX or XP, but the way I look at it, Both of these companies had a 10 year head start on the desktop, and GNU/Linux has come a long way.
as usual, just my .02 cents.
*Normal users don’t install their OS
*Normal users have it pre-installed on the computer they bought
*Normal users turn it on and usually don’t change many settings for the entire existance of the PC….
*Normal Users rarely change resolution once it is set to what they want when they first turn it on.
*Normal users use their computer for
– Email
– Web browsing
– Office work
– Instant Messaging
(i would consider photo manipulation and video editing the next step up from a normal user)
*Normal users don’t usually buy too many periphals that didn’t come bundled with their computers (printer, scanner)
*Normal users usually don’t usually install too many applications that didn’t come bundled with the OS…
and if they do they usually have a more “technical” friend do it.
*Normal users usually don’t care what OS they are running or what apps they are using as long as it works…(if they even know what OS they are using or what an OS is)
I would say this description–
-describes a vast majority of average or “normal” computer users
-and if you read OSNews you *probably* aren’t a normal user
By looking at this description of a normal user the key to Linux success is having it pre-installed on consumer desktops…
this solves most problems because if you ship linux on your hardware you will make sure it works with all the hardware bundled with it..and with all the additional hardware you sell such as camera’s, printers, etc.
If Linux had the luxury that MS has of being widely distributed by computer manufactuers and supported by hardware vendors, linux the OS itself is more then ready for the desktop
“some say that a good distro, like Mandrake”
Well Mandrake is NOT a good first time distribution, they include many alpha programs, beta kernel modules, buggy configuration tools and they look pretty damn ugly.
I think he would have had a MUCH better experience with SuSe 8.1 or Redhat 8.0. I would recommend SuSe though, because while Redhat is better for the first few weeks of Linux, you will soon outgrow it and want more options and better configuration tools. SuSE is still easy enough for most users, but it doesen’t sacrifice features in the process.
Something the writer said did hit home with me – I remember when I first struggled with installing and using Linux and how, when I would go back to working on my Mac (in my case) and have that feeling of “coming home”. It is a mental strain learning how to install and use a new OS, no matter which one it is.
Some of what the peson said is perplexing though. It seems like he must not know the innards of Unix at all if he had that much trouble. And, despite what he said, he did seem to give up pretty easily. I don’t know, it may depend on what applications he was trying to use.
I also agree with the poster who said it was misleading to the *real* average user. Oddly enough, it may be that certain distros of Linux are attuned to the average user who uses average applications to the point where they have just about succeeded where as a person like this, using higher level applications, would have more trouble. If you take Lycoris, for example, and maybe help a Joe User install it, etc., that person is well on their way. The user can set up mail in Mozilla or KMail, browse with Mozilla or Konqueror, use KWord for word processing, set up the address book, calendar, play CD’s and MP3’s, do some light graphics with The Gimp, save documents in your Home folder and, really, that pretty much takes care of things.
So, as odd as it sounds, Joe User may have an easier time with a distro like lycoris than this person had with Mandrake.
That post describes my experience closely when I tried to use a Linux distro.
I don’t think that most geeks understand that the average “real” person doesn’t:
a) have 4 weeks to spend futzing around with the computer to get it to the point where they can accomplish tasks.
b) doesn’t have the patience to make it work. A day or two are all most people have to spend with something that won’t work the way they thought it would.
The problem with Linux is as far as the average person who trys a distro is concerned, it doesn’t freakin’ work.
I admit that it took me some time to get used to things when I moved from W 3.1 to W95. I was frustrated and almost went back to 3.1. I was used to the old interface, and it took me some time to figure out where things went. But, I was able to be productive from day one. I could write, print, check mail, and surf the web.
It took me almost no time at all to get used to W98 (what I’m using right now).
It took me about 2 weeks to get used to moving around in classic Mac OS. (And I like Classic Mac OS less than W 3.1)
Bu the end of the day with Mac OS X I had written a document in Appleworks, saved it in the folder I wanted it to be in, and emailed a copy to my editor. The completely new interface really wasn’t much of a hinderance because it was logical and combined the best ideas from Windows and Mac OS.
In fact, I just upgraded to Jaguar. I did a full wipe the drive and start over install. No problems. I didn’t save any of my old settings because I wanted to see how long it would take me to get things back the way I wanted. Within an hour I had all my old tweaks back and I also discovered several new features.
When I tried Linux, it wasn’t the way in which KDE differed from W98 that caused me problems, it was that things just didn’t work.
Please, somebody, in English, explain why I want to shell out for a Linux distro (I’d rather pay $30 than tie up my modem all night) and spend 4 weeks making it work … if I’m lucky.
Hmmm… $30 and up to 80 hours of my spare time spent making things work. (And my time is currently worth $12.57/hr)
Or.
$129 to Apple and 4 weeks of working.
One is a bargain. The other isn’t.
Linux distros are still a hobby OS. They’re almost ready for the desk top (in fact, they’re maddlingly close) but until then, I’ll stick with OS X.
I hate to seem like I’m only here to piss on Linux. I want to love Linux. I do. The day Red Hat, Lycoris, Lindows or whoever works out all the major bugs and I can burn cds, watch DVDs, import and edit video, write, print, and surf the web with the same ease as I do in W98 and OS X, I’m there.
Sure, Mandrake is not the right distribution for Joe user. Lycoris seems better. But still for the home user, I think something will be missing: no way to run new software. And Joe user might be tempted by a software seen at Walmart. Can be a game, can be a mapping software, can be a card creation software, a home architect…
For the enterprise that’s another story: several office replacement are available, database software… I think a company like IBM or Redhat might be able to propose in many cases a solution tailored to the need of a specific company.
If I had been the first to post this time, I would have predicted two things:
1) Someone would chime in and say that the author was using the wrong distro (like we haven’t seen this tactic used before?)
2) Someone else would chime in and personally attack the author.
And of course, both have happened .. it happens every single time someone writes about a negative experience with Linux. The fanatics think that once someone tries Linux, they’ll never go back to the ‘dark side’, and then can’t deal with the fact that not everybody is going to fall in love with Linux. They’ll blame it on the user, the distro, the hardware, the position of the moon .. ANYTHING but God’s gift to OS’s, as we know the Almighty Linux is perfect in every way. *snicker*
Now, as an addition to what BradC says, yes … an average person could deal with Linux, assuming the following were true …
– Linux came pre-installed with their system (same goes with Windows, too)
– There was some kind of click ‘n run thing like Lycoris or Lindows has for program installation. Sure, they’re probably not going to install many apps, but since Wal-Mart isn’t an option for Linux, there’s got to be something besides Freshmeat.net for them to get stuff from. – Fonts are usuable out of the box
– Whatever browser(s) come preinstalled with the system need to have working support/plugins for Flash, Shockwave, Quicktime, Windows Media, Real Player media, MIDI, or whatever else they might frequently run across on a ‘Windows-centric’ web. (And yes, I know that Windows doesn’t come with all this pre-configured, but installing such things is usually a no-brainer, and sometimes one-click affair under Windows.)
– Whatever Office suite is installed must be able to deal effectively with MS Office documents, or else have Crossover Office/MS Office 2000 pre-installed.
– WineX should be pre-configured to auto-run any Windows game installations (or an icon users can click on when they put in a Windows game CD), and needs support for the most current games. (ie – As it stands now, could I go to Wal-mart, buy a copy of Maddan 2003 or Unreal Tournament 2003, and easily install & run it under Linux?) Despite what you may think, average users DO like to play games, and Solitaire & Tux Racer are only fun for so long
– In Windows, if I plug in some new device (like a USB scanner), Windows comes up with ‘New hardware device found’ and then I pop in the driver CD when it asks, and then it just works. (No, it doesn’t always happen like this, but that’s the norm.) Linux needs to also be this easy to work with
– In general, unless the user lives in a bubble and doesn’t have to interract with anything Windows, Linux needs to be compatible with most things in a Windows-centric world (both hardware and software). For example, if Joe User has a DVD with extras on it that work on a PC, will these work under Linux? If Joe User buys a new scanner that has buttons on the front pannel that would easily let him email scanned pics of hids kids to their grandparents under Windows, how hard woudl it be to get these to work under Linux? If Joe User buys a new portable MP3 player that hooks to a PC via a USB port, how easy would be for Joe User to transfer files from his Linux distro to this device?
– Needs as least one alternative to every ‘Joe Consumer’ kind of software. For example enclypedia/geneology <sp> programs and the like
Now, I don’t know if any distro can do all of the above, but if one can, then yeah … I’d say it’s probably ready. But if not, then it still needs work.
“These days, people apparently can’t use anything unless it works exactly like what they already know. People are becoming more like sheep. Making a little effort to learn new stuff is almost anathema. Is this another sympton of this abdication of personal responsibility that is gradually invading North American culture?”
The “normal” user wants to listen to music, surf the web, write reports, and e-mail. THAT’S IT!
Now, you tell me why would they switch to something so complicated and unstable as Linux from something that always works and does everything with ONE click of the mouse instead of 20+ lines od typeing in a command line and 1 hour of finding and comiling/installing dependancies!?
Just the other day I was with my mom in the New H-E-B here in town(it is much bigger than the old one and has about 5 different kinds of everything~sorta like linux). Know what she said? “I hate these choices all I do is waste time trying to decide which one I want, before I could walk in and walk out with what I cam for in less than 20 min. but now I spend almost an hour!” — This is an example of Windows Vs. Linux for the “normal” user. Old HED=Windows, New=Linux…. most people don’t want choices especially when most of the choices are worse than the one or two options on the “evil” O/S.
Examples of horrible progs in Windows Vs. Linux:
For “Normal Users”:
************************
-Windows- -Ease- -Linux- -Ease-
**
MusicMatch 100% Grip 25%
**
IE 89% Mozilla 80%(b/c of IE only sites)
**
Notepad 95% *100s editors* 69%
**
Winamp 89% XMMS 89%
**
WinMP 95% Xmms/Xine 89%
**
GUI(explorer) 98% GUI(X/WinManagers) 65%
**
FileSystem(struct.) 89% FileSystem(struct.) 45%
**
AppInstall(EXE) 97% AppInstall(RPM) 90%
***********
Games 100% Games(what like 3 good ones?) 99%
***********PS. Games are another big thing, except most gamers are mostly “advanced” users so it isn’t included in the normal user estimates from my experiance***
IF a person can’t get something to work the first time, why not RTFM (Read The Friendly Manual)?
I bought a copy of Redhat Linux 8.0, everything was detected and installed, and within around an hour (after registering and downloading patches/updates), I was reading to start working.
People who can’t get Linux working either need to read a manual or just jolly well stick with Windows and put up with all the problems of it. Simple as that.
If you want to run Linux, all power to you, however, don’t expect the “community” to continuously bend over backwards for the few unwilling to help themselves.
I’m a geek. I’ve been playing with Linux since 1993. Because I’m a geek, I’m often called upon by friends, neighbors and relatives to help them with their computers. I can’t tell you how many times I sit down at a machine and say, “Let me fix your monitor – I’ll get a headache if I have to look at this.” New machine, new 20″ monitor, but it’s set to 800x600x8@60Hz and flickering like an old 8mm home movie.
“Wow! I didn’t know you could *do* that!” is the usual response when I set it to 1280x1024x32@86Hz.
I loathe setting up Windows. It seems that Microsoft goes out of its way to make it difficult. I find it far easier to set up Linux than Windows (got that driver diskette handy for your motherboard, your network card, your audio card, your DVD, your Zip drive…?) Just ran into this problem with morning with a machine I built for my wife. The drivers that came with the network card were too old, and without a network card there’s no way to get new drivers. (This was a Linksys LNE-100TX – a fairly common card.)
I’m tired of telling a friend of mine that he should install antivirus software and a firewall if he wants to leave his computer on a broadband connection. So far today I’ve received 8 copies of the Klez worm from him.
But the thing that really gets me is the cow-like passive attitude of so many computer users. It’s a toaster to them. They don’t want to learn anything at all about it. They don’t want to download patches or install firewalls. They don’t want to spend a moment with a manual or even read online help pages. They remind me of nothing so much as the old joke about the man who gave his mother a parrot that spoke three languages. Next time he came over, his mother served it to him for dinner. Where’s the sense of wonder, the thrill of discovery, the simple pleasures of the penny dropping, “Oh, *that’s* how it works!”? No, they just sit back on their haunches and tell me that “They’re not really computer literate.” That’s like proudly stating, “And I can’t even write my own name!” It’s 2002, for pity’s sake. IBM rolled out the Personal Computer in 1981. I’ve got an Apple II here from 1978. Computers are an integral part of life now; learn to use them!
I will allow that our current system doesn’t help. If J. Random User decides he wants to learn more, he signs up for a night class at the local community college, where they teach him how to make simple stylesheets in Microsoft Word and maybe a macro or two in Excel. They call those courses “Introduction to Personal Computing” rather than the true title of “Microsoft Marketing Material.”
If Linux is for geeks, then let’s revel in it. YES, we’re the intelligensia. YES, we’re the wizards who know how to make fire. YES, we’re better than you.
“Here’s a nickel, kid. Go get yourself a real operating system.” — Sid in “User Friendly”
Here endeth the rant.
It was incredibly easy. The average user could accept the default settings and be on the internet in 30 minutes. The would have an email client, web browser, file manager, word processor, spreadsheet, Presentation software, IM client, media player, mp3 player, CD player, CD Creator all max three clicks away.
I installed a new printer HP deskjet 3820 and it autodetected it and setup the appropriate settings.
If the people do the tasks for the apps I described then it is so basic.
The real problem is that people are afraid because Linux is in some cases a geek OS, depending on how you use it and the distro. SuSE 8.1 is sooo easy.
If something goes wrong it is blamed on Linux being ‘new’ and a geek OS. People forget all the problems that come about with Windows.
I am routinely helping people with frozen apps on their Dell P4 with XP Home. All kinds of problems with Outlook as a result of multiple users, the system just slows down and I give them the standard “just reboot the machine” story.
I admit that like someone else on these boards pointed out, downloading apps of the internet, compiling them or going to a text file and making modifications is much more difficult than the dummy proof Windows Installers. There is definately a lot that can improve on that end. But the ‘average’ users I know who use the web, kids do IM, and write the odd paper, SuSE 8.1 is more than good enough, in fact its outstanding.
By the way, I have had a problem with slow UI etc in the past with Linux distros, but since GCC 3.* has come out and I think the patched kernels, my UI is lightning on a P3 1 gig 356 meg 133 sdram. It definately surpasses XP and seems to get better the longer it runs, XP starts out quick and the degrades.
You can probably tell that since my SuSE 8.1 disks arrived I am one happy Linux user.
Kady Mae, I would say that a person should, at this time, have a particular interest in giving something different a try. For some, it might be a hobby interest, for others, a dislike of Windows or OS X. A big part is curiosity. Right now, it would still be difficult for an average person to get going with even something like Lycoris because you have to install it yourself. Something like Lycoris – with some more tweaking, if it was pre-installed on computers you can buy at Circuit City or places like that, it isn’t far from being something average users can really use. But, right now, you have to have at least the curiosity to see if you can install, use, tweak, etc. OS junkies don’t find this kind stuff frustrating (well, usually not :-), it is interesting, fascinating, even tantalizing. To OS junkies, whether really high falutin’ users and programmers or just people sort of in the middle like me, the challenge is a big part of the thrill. Also, some like myself, have a particular interest in Linux on the desktop…to see how much closer each build and release of a distro gets to being as usable to an average user as Mac or Windows.
If you’re interested, I’d try Lycoris – order it – you get a nice manual that’s easy to follow and it’s very easy to install. You could try Lindows, but you get almost no software and have to pay $99 at this time to access their Click & Run Warehouse. Lycoris is only $29.95 or something like that. They have a very friendly community website, which is a really good resource.
“These days, people apparently can’t use anything unless it works exactly like what they already know.
People are becoming more like sheep. Making a little effort to learn new stuff is almost anathema. Is this
another symptom of this abdication of personal responsibility that is
gradually invading North American culture? ”
I think this is just the spread of computer usage to a wider segment
of the population. The kind of person who was using computers 15 years
ago is still there and is still learning, but has been joined by a
large number of peole with less aptitude for learning.
It’s true that Windows XP “cheat”: at first it still does initialisation when you have the desktop.
Me, I like it, you dislike it: it is purely a personnal preference issue: it should be configurable.
But it is nice to have the *possibility* in WinXP to lower the apparent time the boot takes.
I’d like that there would be something equivalent for Linux: booting Linux, then KDE is very slow even after you’ve disabled the big amount of useless daemons which are started by default by most distributions.
I really enjoyed this article because I could relate to his experience. A few weeks ago I built my own system because I got fed up with overpaying for pre built machines that were almost compltely un-upgradeable and always cut corners in some areas.
I installed Win 98 SE on it and after a couple hours of digging through old Maximum PC CD’s and a few downloads I had a firewall running, anti-virus software with the latest definitions installed, Open Office Running, Opera was configured to my liking, my DSL connection was humming along and my few driver issues were all sorted out.
I decided to try Linux, I read as much as I could about it, then I downloaded Mandrake 9.0. The install went soothly enough and I was able to do a few things but I soon ran into problems. My DSL connection was not working (my network card was not recognized). KDE kept on crashing at random times, I could not figure out exactly how things worked or how they were organized.
I also work in Science and I do have real work I need to get done. After a few days of spending hours fiddling with things, posting on the Linuxnewbie forums and waiting patiently for answers I sometimes did not understand, I finally gave up because I had things I HAD TO GET DONE.
Most people don’t have time to learn a new OS properly. If I ever get a vacation I might sit down with a Linux book and try to figure it all out but I think most “normal” users just don’t have the time and energy to devote to such a task. Yes I do like the idea of Linux and I know a lot more about it now than I did 2 weeks ago but the time investment needed is too great for me to make the transition right now. I have 12 years of using and tinkering with Windows behind me and it will be hard to break away from that level of comfort.
I did download Red Hat 8.0 last night and I will probably spend tomorrow morning istalling it and hopefully getting it to work because I’m stubborn and I think machines should not defeat me
By Monday I’ll probably be back to Windows so I can get my work done but hopefully one of these days I’ll figure Linux out and I’ll be free from the M$ trap.
to learn mac in 1987
to learn photoshop on a mac in 1993
to learn DOS in 1994
to learn 3D Studio on DOS in 1995
to learn windows win95 in 1996
to learn windows nt in 1997
to get my mcse in 2000
to learn redhat in 2001
to learn postfix/cyrus/horde/imp in 2002
SO WHATS YOUR POINT? JUST SUMMARIZE IT!
“I PUSSED OUT”
“The “normal” user wants to listen to music, surf the web, write
reports, and e-mail. THAT’S IT!
”
I think MS is preparing the XBox line for these users. The model that
is out now is just testing the waters.
Linux is for geeks, but it depends on the distro.
lindows and lycoris have gone out of their way to make linux
distros like their own less geeky.
and have by doing so also taken the geek appeal out.
But if you look at say gentoo (which im btw doing my first install of right as we speak) i wouldnt want to put into the hands of joe_user, even some parts of linux scares me.
but hey, then again, i LOVE to tinker and poke new toys so whynot, if us geeks werent into cars we would most probably be grease monkeys.
Most of the complaints I see about Linux and usability come not from the new computer users, but from the people who have been using computers for 15+ years and are used to doing things the Windows way. They are probably open to learning, but only if what they have to learn fits in with what they already know. For them Linux is right out.
I have also seen a lot of complaints about installs on Linux. This IMO is not the fault of Linux, it’s about the application developer. There are Linux apps out there with mindlessly easy installs (e.g. Netscape). The app developer needs to either provide an easy install program or a notice that the app isn’t ready for use by the general population (i.e. non-developers).
hi retards..
the guy from the article is a fucking asshole.. if he doesn’t want to understand GNU/linux, then it’s not worth it.. ’cause nix is just like that, to use it properly (hail mr. proper
) you must know something about it and not keep having retard and mystical ideas about how things work.. you can see the asswipe still uses anti-virus por win2k when not a single one can do shit about swf+cfm EXE injection, only about lame worms.. intelligent ppl don’t get unintencionaly infected by worms.
anyhows, that other guy says it takes him 2 months to install debian.. OMG, is this place crawling with retards ? i take about half an hour do install slackware 8.1, another half to configure it.. sharam.. what’s the problem ? i don’t see one… 2 months ?! wtf ?! are you insane ?
and another thing.. if you wanna use a grafical system, for office shit and games, buy a frekin MAC. MACOS is the best for that kindof crap.. have you ever installed something on it ? on my System7 i just have to copy the file to a directory, update 1 or 2 libs and it’s done.. want userfriendlyness ? want ignorance ? want to be blind about the truth or simply you’re not interested on the truth? buy a frekin MAC..
what about games, you may ask.. still have that PC at home right ? install win98se and play whatever you like.. remove Internet Explorer or simply don’t browse the web with it.. since win9x/ME is the easiest shit to fool…
cya
This is my experience as well. I felt as though I spent more time trying to get things configured and working then I did doing anything actually productive.
Comparing the price of a boxed Linux distro with the price of Windows is a false analogy. Of course there is an absolute price difference, but Linux is only as free as your time.
… and i like it. don’t you like it? if you dont then you probably shouln’t even think about using linux. no matter what today’s hype is: Linux isnt and never will be as ‘easy’ as windows.
Neal Stephenson describes linux as a tank, compared to NT’s 4×4 and he’s damn right. if you don’t want a tank in your garage then dont try linux!
“””Comparing the price of a boxed Linux distro with the price of Windows is a false analogy. Of course there is an absolute price difference, but Linux is only as free as your time.”””
Depends on where you come from; I came from working on Suns. The time spent learning linux’s slightly different commands and dealing with configuration issues was significantly less than trying to do the equivalent with Windows (getting it setup properly/patching it/finding which vendor had the tools I needed/etc).
Depends on where you come from; I came from working on Suns. The time spent learning linux’s slightly different commands and dealing with configuration issues was significantly less than trying to do the equivalent with Windows (getting it setup properly/patching it/finding which vendor had the tools I needed/etc).
And your situation sounds like it’s perfectly extendable to most of the end user computing world
. Since we live in a Windows world, most people who switch to Linux aren’t going to have it as lucky as you did. Until it “just works” there’s going to be a cost associated with switching that does not show up in the price tag of a boxed distro (or a free iso).
When I read the reactions to the author’s article, I am reminded of my belief that Bill Gates doesn’t have to worry about crushing linux on the desktop because so many geeks in the linux community do his job for him.
These reactions to that author also rekindle my firm belief that future linux usability efforts adopting a public license that locks the RTFM’ing bastards out of using or modifying their software is morally justified and long overdue.
Ok, people this is an easy one. Keep the end users away from Linux. My favorite OS – linux was created as a desktop OS for a guy who wanted a *Nix clone he could run on Intel hardware. Linux is honestly really good at this. The installs and the configuration tools are a bit easier than the other Unix-like alternatives out there. This does not mean that the average Windows “power-user” with no real want or need to learn Unix should bother installing Linux on their PC.
An OS is only useful to you if the OS and the applications available for that OS fills your needs.
If Windows does this for you, stick with windows. If you hate Windows and want an alternative that works out the box please save up your money stop buying Windows software and start saving up for a Mac OS X box and the software you need to run on this box.
If you need unix for work and you like unix, then try linux. If you want to learn unix and hate the Windows way of doing things then try linux. If you want a dozen possible gui-environments to choose from and you like tinkering around for weeks on your system and you don’t mind having to learn a new way of doing things with unix then try linux.
If you only surf the net, get email, don’t play tons of high end games and have a unix geek that can set your box for you then you might be happy surfing around with linux as long as you have CrossOver plugin support.
Otherwise, think really hard about why it is worth your time to tool around with a new OS. I like Linux and I do not particularily care to have the experience watered down to the lowest end-user common level of usability. In the old Neal Stephenson anology it is not possible or advisable to try and make a free tank into an SUV.
The people that wanted a tank will not be happy and the people that wanted an SUV will not be happy.
*Normal users don’t install their OS
*Normal users have it pre-installed on the computer they bought
So Linux won’t get anywhere until Dell starts shiping Linux boxes for consumers? Well, if the average dumbdown Mac user could install Mac OS X (which has one of the easiest installations available), I don’t see ho hard is it for a PC users to do the same.
Besides, if you read the article again, you would see it is the problems with the installer (Mandrake and their bugs), and how hard is it for a consumer to fix it to get it up and running.
*Normal users turn it on and usually don’t change many settings for the entire existance of the PC….
Yes, but for the first time they use it, they would probably want to change stuff like screen resolution, while a lot of them normally change the wallpaper of the desktop often. But really, for the first day, if they have to edit from config file writen in some cryptic language (where the man pages are even more cryptic, mind you), do you think end users would say “Oh la la, I’m never using Windows again!”? Doubt it.
*Normal users use their computer for
Then we scroll even more down to
– Office work
Really, this differs from user to user. Some users use Office only, some have some macros they brought back, some has custom made applications they also brought back, others have jobs that doesn’t involve Office, etc.
– Instant Messaging
If all end users actually use instant messenging in the first place, I’m quite sure there would be far more IM users then currently with AIM, MSN, Yahoo put together.
*Normal users don’t usually buy too many periphals that didn’t come bundled with their computers (printer, scanner)
Actually, this couldn’t be further from the truth. Most PCs don’t come with printers, and normally installing them on Windows is a piece of cake. Even more so with USB printers. And it is quite rare for a PC to come bundled with a scanner – and again, it is a piece of cake to install it on the PC (even more so with USB, USB2.0 and FireWire).
And what about a new breed of consumer hardware? Like webcams, digicams, dvcam, etc. And none of them are as easy to install as on Windows and the Mac. Of course, installing this stuff does require some skill: the ability to read.
*Normal users usually don’t usually install too many applications that didn’t come bundled with the OS…
Again, couldn’t be further from the truth. Many consumers have all sort of crap installed on their PC you would sigh “No wonder they always have registry problems”. Plus, not forgeting consumers rarely keep a game for more than 2 decades…
*Normal users usually don’t care what OS they are running or what apps they are using as long as it works…(if they even know what OS they are using or what an OS is)
Again, couldn’t be further from the truth. Unless they are really that dumb, or rarely on their PCs, or just plain don’t know how to read, they normally know what version of Windows they are using.
By looking at this description of a normal user the key to Linux success is having it pre-installed on consumer desktops…
For them to keep it in a corner, or get the geek/nerd down the street to install Windows? Especially when it comes to installing new hardware and software, Linux can be cryptic in the methods. Even stuff geared for the desktop, like Mandrake and Red Hat.
Overall, I think Linux is not ready for the consumer desktop. It is quite ready for various niches in the corporate desktop, and some high end workstation uses, but for the big fat old annoying lady that happens to be your grandma? Nahh… Unless you are ready to be her sysadmin.
I saw some people posting quotes from my favorite commentary on computing, “In The Beginning Was The Command Line”, by Neal Stephenson, and I thought I add this to sum up fanatisim and the average user.
“The group giving away the free tanks only stays alive because it is staffed by volunteers, who are lined up at the edge of the street with bullhorns, trying to draw customers’ attention to this incredible situation. A typical conversation goes something like this:
Hacker with bullhorn: “Save your money! Accept one of our free tanks! It is invulnerable, and can drive across rocks and swamps at ninety miles an hour while getting a hundred miles to the gallon!”
Prospective station wagon buyer: “I know what you say is true…but…er…I don’t know how to maintain a tank!”
Bullhorn: “You don’t know how to maintain a station wagon either!”
Buyer: “But this dealership has mechanics on staff. If something goes wrong with my station wagon, I can take a day off work, bring it here, and pay them to work on it while I sit in the waiting room for hours, listening to elevator music.”
Bullhorn: “But if you accept one of our free tanks we will send volunteers to your house to fix it for free while you sleep!”
Buyer: “Stay away from my house, you freak!”
Bullhorn: “But…”
Buyer: “Can’t you see that everyone is buying station wagons?”
Its interesting to note though, that the entire essay basically endorsed Be…
The essay is freely availbe from Neal Stephenson’s website, http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html , every computer user, average or not, should give it a read. Its funny, light, serious, smart, witty, and informative.
I’m not really an average user, obviously, I’m posting on Osnews for starters. Anyway, I figure that I will throw in my two cents from the perspective of a ‘recovering geek’.
I started using linux back in the .95 or was it .97 days. (NO, not year, kernel version). It was really cool and lots of fun to play with along with the BBS thing. I was constantly churning through every new BBS software I could find on my other computer (running Dos/Deskview). Eventually, I became a Unix Sys Admin, running Solaris boxen and then moved on to network engineering. I’ve been running Solaris x86/Sparc at home for years and haven’t had Windows on a home system since 1995.
This all worked very well when I plenty of time on my hands. I could sit and tinker around on my systems, installing this or that, making this program or that program work, even if it meant re-writing code, etc. (Getting things to run on Solaris x86 has always been interesting).
Once I started running Solaris (on Suns), I fell out of the Linux camp. It was still a pretty small group at that time and was alot of fun, but it didn’t feel as solid or useable as Solaris.
Finally, I became anti-linux. I rather dislike linux these days. It’s not so much to do with Linux itself, it’s more to do with all the whining losers who run linux. It is a bunch of anti-social geeks who can’t do anything but whine. They think that the OS is actually relevant the rest of the world and that linux is the light.
Here are some of the other issues with Linux:
In the Enterprise Desktop:
– No good management system (Push updates, etc) I don’t want home grown scripts, etc trying to update every computer in the network.
– It doesn’t run MS Office & various other programs. Incompatibilities of any type which may impede my business cost me money. If it doesn’t run every program that I need, it is not an option.
– Staff Retraining costs. If my staff does not know how to use it, I have to train them. I don’t have the time for that, nor do I want to fund that when I don’t have to. I would rather spend the money training them on skills needed for their job.
– There is no fiscal benefit to running Linux. It is alot of costs that I have to absorb, but will it raise my employees productivity? No, it very simply will not. I don’t need the extra features or functionality of Linux. I need my employees to be able to run a certain set of applications and that is it.
In the Home Desktop:
– Joe User needs a certain set of applications:
– Office
– Games
– IM
– Email
– Web
– Music (burn CD’s)
(I spend alot of time hanging out with non-geeks. Blue collar folks, construction workers, truck drivers, etc. That list is based on what they mention they and their kids use.)
– Everything to ‘just work’
The computer for Joe User is an appliance, just like a TV or a toaster. Does the average person know how to set the time on their VCR? No, nor do they really need to. They will treat the computer the same way.
Based on that list, does Linux provide ANY advantage? Hmm….not really, since Windows doesn’t cost the average user anything, it comes with that $600 Dell.
Until you don’t lose ANY functionality by running linux, it will never take hold. The only way for it to take hold is for Dell/HP/Gateway/etc to all start shipping with linux.
Mac’s have the advantage over Linux in that they have a ‘coolness’ factor going for them.
Anyway, like I said, I’m a ‘recovering geek’. I’m getting rid of the Sun U2E at home, the routers, and the Solaris x86 box. I don’t think I could ever return to the Windows camp, as I hate it more then linux. (Tho Win2k hasn’t crashed on me in almost 2 years now. Work laptop.) I’m thinking that with the cash from the ‘geek gear’, I’ll get a Mac. I can keep my unix, and from what I’ve seen, it “Just Works”. I can spend my time accomplishing things, instead of making things work. Plus, I get to keep Unix underneath (I’m a vi junkie.) and have a quality UI.
– K
I have been using linux for the better part of 5 years and usually I’ll first and try to do something on windows ( such as hooking up a router and installing dsl ) and then try it on linux which is usually harder but you see how everything works and that is what I use linux as – an educational tool. but then there are days when I get tired of googling problems that I am having ( today it’s video drivers for my portable ) with linux – so I just gave up – installed cygwin – set the DISPLAY to my portable and have everything from my linux server display on the XP portable
– JVM
>Finally, I became anti-linux. I rather dislike linux these >days. It’s not so much to do with Linux itself, it’s more to
>do with all the whining losers who run linux. It is a bunch
>of anti-social geeks who can’t do anything but whine. They >think that the OS is actually relevant the rest of the world >and that linux is the light.
That is so funny consider the loudest voices (not whiners) on this site appear to me the folks who are such big detractors of the Linux OS. I hate hyperbole and I despise all this talk of Windows-killers and the linux desktop for the “common” user.
However, if you don’t like Linux sure buy a mac. Still, calling the people who like the OS “whiners” is silly and insulting. There are too many people out there who are apologists for the linux OS who fail to see its limitations or in my opinion its full potential.
You want to see linux on the desktop. Well, it is good for a small group of individuals in the corporate world.
Say you run a shop where you program for a Unix platform, or maybe you have a large group of systems and network engineers that spend all day on the Unix command line.
They log onto their Windows NT machines and proceed to spend 90 percent of their day stuck inside an Exceed session or at the telnet or SSH client command line. Maybe the situation is even worse where you work with corporate IT spending money for a group of engineers or developers to have a Windows NT machine and a Unix workstation as well running two boxes out of the same cube.
If there was no market for these people, Exceed and other companies doing the same thing would go out of business. In addition, commercial Unix manufacturers would stop making workstation configurations all together. They have not.
The real market for the Linux desktop in corporate America are these people stuck spending 90 percent of their day in Unix on top of Windows or with two machines.
This is the niche market that Redhat is going after. However, if linux distros do not try and make a desktop friendly linux then they will not get better. That is why I like many of the reviews here because they are not all just this OS or that OS sucks because it won’t wipe out Windows or something. If the linux folks do not attempt to improve their desktop OS, then the users of the world are stuck with Windows or going out and buying brand new hardware for a Mac because the other smaller OSes do not even come close to having the number of available apps, graphical tools, and easy installation that even the much blighted linux has at this time.
I am so glad you have the money for a Mac with OS X and I hope you like the OS interface and the hardware because if you don’t the only other option with PPC hardware you have is the much hated linux.
Having spent the weekend with some people that have NEVER used a computer I have to say that it doesn’t matter what OS you are using, a computer is a complicated device. And as a complicated device it is practically impossible to make a computer that is as easy to use as a toaster.
As the first post in 3 weeks I will keep it short. Good to be back online although my place is still not ready. Sitting on a piece of cardboard in the middle of a big empty room typing on my laptop. –sigh–