There is an editorial on ExtremeTech focusing on the Gnome implementation found on SuSE 8.1. The article is comparable to the critisisms against Red Hat for the way they delivered KDE to their users.
SuSE Insults Gnome Users?
Submitted by RedTux 2002-10-25 SuSE, openSUSE 29 Comments
The author of the article should switch to Red Hat. Not only does the personal desktop option come with Gnome by default, it’n not infected with KDE by default either.
We have a lively discussion going on about this at PCLinuxOnline.com, if anyone is interested:
Who knows, maybe your question/comment has already been answered
exactly.why does this really surprise people that much?
everyone knows suse is a kde distro….red hat is a gnome distro. period. (although I think red hat did a good job with kde in 8.0…but others might not agree)
Alas, all that anticipation has turned to ashes in my mouth.
Actually, ashes are used by the Asian elite before toothpaste was introduced. Very effective.
Once I had SuSE installed, I booted into Gnome and was, again, very disappointed.
WHat did you expect? GNOME was not even mentioned on SuSE’s promotional site, and support doesn’t cover it. They just compile and provided packages on their CDs to ease installation for GNOME user.
But as a reviewer, you should check out their KDE? If you could check out GNOME in Red Hat, you should do the same with SuSE by checking out KDE first. KDE is what SuSE wants novices to use – most of the customers are novices, I’m guessing. They did a mighty fine job with KDE too.
Once I found Galeon and launched it, I got even more upset. Its performance was terrible.
I doubt it is intentional, it is a bug. I once had problems with Galeon on Mandrake 8.1 – I never said Mandrake was giving GNOME the cold shoulder.
Maybe I’m crazy, but if you bundle an office suite with your OS, shouldn’t you also install some desktop icons during installation?.
Sure…. why not include icons for every other application on earth on the desktop. This is one of the reasons why I hate the desktop metaphor – every applictaion just must have an icon on the desktop. Thank goodness SuSE didn’t confirm to mainstream packaging.
Besides, on Red Hat, Mandrake and Lycoris, no icons were made. And what OOo have to do with GNOME?
SuSE’s prodigal desktop was slick, even gorgeous in some ways. The SuSE logo was built into the KDE interface and you could tell that extra care was taken to customize KDE to give it a SuSE atmosphere.
Why am I not suprised? Right…. SuSE is a major developer behind KDE. They spend money promoting it. And you want them to give the same treatment they gave to KDE to GNOME – you are out of your mind. Does Red Hat do that? Sure, their KDE installation is much better than SuSE’s GNOME installation, but still it isn’t as polished as KDE.
If you’re a KDE person, you’ll like SuSE. No doubt about it. But if you’re a Gnome user then you will be outraged!
As a KDE user, I have used many distributions that focuses on GNOME and not on KDE. Take Icepack for an example. The only reason why I’m not using it because half of my hardware won’t/can’t be detected, nor installed.
Yet I’m not outrage at the fact they include KDE but spend all their time making GNOME real integrated into their distro. No, I’m not.
Well I’ll tell you what I expected – at least a somewhat equal amount of attention put into both desktops. Past releases of SuSE were relatively equivalent – at least the differences weren’t as glaring.
You are like a kid expecting Santa Claus to come, but he doesn’t exist. SuSE 8.0 is way different. KDE 3.0 just had came out, which doesn’t actually give SuSE much time to really integrate into KDE 3.0.
I decided to go back to Libranet. It’s not fancy but at least Galeon doesn’t crash every five seconds and Evolution, GAIM and other Gnome applications have icons built-in to the menus and aren’t treated like “second-class” applications.
I don’t see you writing an article saying KDE users to look elsewhere than Red Hat because KDE applications are given “second place” in the menu entries. No, no, I don’t. You are just upset because a KDE company spends a lot of time making their KDE installation really really nice, and not the same with GNOME.
If you really must use GNOME, do as you have said – use Libranet. Geez, to you a distro would only be nice with GNOME nice and proper.
You remind me of dep from the KDE 1/2 days….
from the article:
“So what happened? My best guess: SuSE was in such a rush to get 8.1 out the door that the Gnome desktop was simply written off. If that’s the case then they are shooting themselves in the foot, because Gnome people will abandon them in droves.”
i imagined the ending more like this 😉
“…shooting themselves in the foot, because Gnome people will abandon them in droves!!!!@#$%@#$%” (chirp chirp…..chirp chirp…….chirp chirp)<sound of crickets in an abandoned field fade out>
My God, whatever the merits or demerits of having full blown KDE and Gnome in a distro, I can’t believe what a crybaby this guy is. I would have been ashamed to turn in a written piece in high school with the tone and attitude of this guy. With screenshots to boot.
I think distros are choosing now what environment to concentrate on. It is really paying off too. SuSE with KDE and Red Hat with Gnome, for example. Lycrois with KDE in a different way. The results of focusing on one are really becoming evident. If I were that guy I would get Red Hat 8 and be in heavenand forget about Libranet.
Did anybody notice the ID number of this news article? OSNews.com just hit 2000 articles! Congratulations to Eugenia and the OSNews team for a job well done.
It’s to the distribution’s and the average end users advantage to have only one desktop installed by default. Most Users don’t use more than one desktop, and most users don’t want to have to make that choice. People who are installing Linux for the first time might not even know that there is a difference between “Operating System” and “Desktop Environment” and the installation is not a good time to run into this problem. Remember the Review of Red Hat 8.0 by the user who ended up in TWM because he wanted to try something else besides Gnome?
However, if you do happen to be a Gnome user (like me), Gnome is included, and if you know enough to care about something like that, I’m guessing you will probably adjust the Gnome setting to whatever you want them to be, and the stock Suse settings really won’t matter that much. Having only one desktop environment installed by default is the way to go(imho) and its nice that the other desktop is there for those who want it.
On a side note, I do agree it would have been a benefit to work on the menus some more.
Bring on the bubbly! A sad thing the story that dominates this number is a crybaby article.
He demands that SuSE spend more time on GNOME to make it as polished as KDE in SuSE. I wonder when we would see copycat articles demanding the same for IceWM, Window Maker, Enlightenment, XFce, XPde, fvwm, twm, ROX, etc….? Makes just as much sense. Opps, I forgot BlackBox and Fluxbox too! How dare they give them a cold shoulder?
If you want Gnome use Red Hat….they’re an insult to KDE, so that makes it even now
Those are Window Managers.
Use Mandrake 9.0!!! The best of KDE and the best of GNOME coexist perfectly in a small Linux world!!! And if you like what Red Hat did with their artwork, you can install the Bluecurve engine under Mandrake 9.0 as well, an enjoy the beautiful artwork in addition to a working distro! 🙂
>Congratulations to Eugenia and the OSNews team for a job well done.
Use Mandrake 9.0!!! The best of KDE and the best of GNOME coexist perfectly in a small Linux world!!!
If Mandrake would get away from the gtk stuff and go to the stock QT controls, I would….that’s what’s holding Mandrake back for KDE enthusiasts
“Saw an amusing article on LinuxToday. This Gnome user is bitching because Suse doesn’t install Gnome by default and he doesn’t like how the apps are configured. He calls it treating Gnome as a “second class citizen”. Yet when we KDE users complain about how RH doesn’t, (and never has), install KDE by default and configures it to run GTK apps by default even when you do these same Gnome users say: Deal with it. What a joke. He actually complained about “You have to change the software setting in the install routine to get it to install. That’s ridiculous!”. Well, buddy, how do you think us KDE users feel about RH? It’s always been that way with them.”
“Another irritant: the lack of icons after installing Open Office. I installed it as per SuSE’s install routine, and yet not a single icon showed up on my Gnome desktop. Maybe I’m crazy, but if you bundle an office suite with your OS, shouldn’t you also install some desktop icons during installation?. Yes, experienced users can create their own — but who wants to spend time doing that? Not me, that’s for sure.”
This guy has to be kidding me.
Why do sites such as this one have to encourage this kind of diatribe by linking to them?
KDE In Suse 8.1 is really really OUTSTANDING
Gnome in RH 8.0 is really really outstanding
Kde in RH 8.0 is good and workable
Gnome in suse 8.1 is workable
But i think that suse good have done a better job with gnome.
Now it is just put in like, oooh forgot gnome somebody compile some packages so we can ship it.
Never used KDE much, but WOW
after installing SuSe 8.1 KDE looks awesome and works smooth even on my Celeron 433.
This article is a surprise.
The author describes how he opens the Suse box, like
a child at christmas to find what … a linux with gnome?
SUSE is a mainly a KDE distribution, they even sponsor KDE developlemnt! Even my grandmother knows this (almost).
Just like Red Hat is a Gnome distribution.
As long as distributions make sure that they can run
applications of the other desktop camp (and follow LSP and
free desktop), it is up to the user to choose a distribution
that supports his/hers preferred desktop.
This whole discussion seems to be intended as a means to waste people’s time with inter-DE disputes. The reviewer doesn’t like that SuSE didn’t make some icons in his GNOME menu. Is this worth having a huge argument about? SuSE’s GNOME is nice, generic, pure GNOME, w/out hacks, additions, subtractions, etc.
It seems rather hypocritical for a Debian fan to complain about menu arrangements also. (And I say this as one myself.)
Given the rather bizarre desktop preferences he seems to have (see his last screenshot), one should take his words with many grains of salt
I will refrain from rebutting this troll article.
The reasons for the article as far I can see are very simple
1. An antidote to the many comments/reviews complaining about RH’s treatment of gnome, by looking at a KDE distros treatment of gnome.
2. A look at the gnome implementation in SUSE, after all not everyone chooses a distro for the DE
My god. It’s SuSE’s choice which desktop they favor in their products. Don’t like it? Don’t buy it. It is that easy.
a) i’m a gnome user
b) i don’t like what RedHat did to .. Gnome, I found annoying this excessive use of colors (i like theme not rainbow) and KDE-like icons (yes you can start a fatwah against me for saying that if you want)
c) i understand why distros choose one or another desktop and it’s so logical, I don’t undertsand why people are so mad about that.
d) it seems to me that the new KDE/Gnome “war” is to know which one will have the larger number of distros which choose their desktop as default and make it look the best.
e) I think both desktops have made huge progress, and both are getting closer to really compete with M$. I hope this KDE/Gnome eternal confrontation (users more than desktop) will just make it even better.
I think both desktops have made huge progress, and both are getting closer to really compete with M$. I hope this KDE/Gnome eternal confrontation (users more than desktop) will just make it even better.
Not only do I agree with you, but I also think this has been happening for a few years now. I’m a KDE user, sure, but I’ve been using it since the 1.x days. I remember, three years ago, when both KDE & Gnome basically sucked. They were the best linux had, yes, but they sucked.
Well, they fought tooth and nail against eachother to be the best, and both one. It’s a non-zero sum game. Both compete against eachother, abd both have benefitted. While I’m a KDE user, I’m really, really impressed by gnome 2.0.
With regards to packaging, I agree with something Eugenia said back in the redhat 8.0 review comments — correct me if I paraphrase wrong — she said something to the effect that a distro should focus on one DE, and provide libs (and some binaries and whatnot) for the other distro, such that a Gnome user could still run KDevelop (for example) seamlessly.
Users don’t care what DE they get — they just want something that looks and feel integrated and works, and the ones who do care (like us) can pick a distro that focuses on our preferred DE.
Frankly, I do not like GNOME. And finally there is a distribution which does not waste its developers time on this environment. When possible I use KDE applications, and find them superior to GNOME equivalents, also the desktop integration and underlying technical design of KDE seems to be much better thought out.
So – if I would like to use GNOME, I would install RH8 🙂
Why can’t everyone just keep a level head?
SUSE pay scant attention to GNOME.
RedHat pay scant attention to KDE.
Neither is in the RIGHT – it’s just their own corporate direction.
For anyone to suggest that because RedHat did X to KDE, then SUSE doing Y to GNOME makes is even is ridiculous. This is NOT a war and never should be. If RedHat’s actions are wrong, then SUSE’s are also. And everyone knows that two wrongs don’t make a right!
To hobble ANYTHING module in the Linux world is short sighted – but if you don’t like someone’s stuff, then don’t bloody use their distro!
The amount of talk that some people come up with suggests that they should be listened to instead of the reviewers. Well – if you’re THAT confident about your own views, why don’t you publish a review and then see how well the Linux comunity takes to your ideals.
Somewhere, somehow, someone will always be outraged at somebody elses actions, comments or views.
Just live with it – it’s easier.
P.S. Don’t know why I wrote this, because I’ll just have upset someone along the line. Kudos to ALL reviewers for having the balls to put your views up for public debate.
> The article is comparable to the critisisms against Red Hat for the way they delivered KDE to their users.
Was the criticism about that RedHat didn’t install KDE by default? AFAIR there were other points too.
Every time I read a review like this, where the reviewer takes a perceived flaw in the program personally, I imagine the board meeting that must have preceeded it.
CEO: Gentlemen, we will soon ship a new version of SuSE Linux. We have already offended penguin-lovers by using a lizard as our logo, we have offended herpetologists by calling our logo animal “Geecko” when it is clearly an Old-World chameleon, we have offended rpm lovers by configuring our file system slightly differently than Red Hat, and in our last released, we pissed off the Command Line zealots by dumping YAST1. What can we do this time?
Junior Executive: Let’s not give Gnome the same level of support as KDE.
CEO: (steepling fingers) Excellent! Soon we shall achieve our ultimate goal of being international pariahs, more hated even than Bill Gates!
Gales of derisive laughter fill the Nuremberg boardroom…
Seriously, if this guy is looking for insults, all he needs do is post his review over at Slashdot. I’m sure someone will oblige him.