William G. Canaday writes for Newsforge, “When my wife asked me to remove Windows and install Linux on her computer, I was happy to oblige. She is familiar with Linux from watching me use it and was quite upset that Windows had lost her desktop photograph — again. This gave me an excuse to try setting up a terminal / server network.” His article discusses his experience with LTSP, the Linux Terminal Server Project. Read the rest at Newsforge.
Setting Up a Linux Terminal Server
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Adam Scheinberg
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Been wondering about this myself. Looks good enough. Now, I wonder if I could shove a LTSP CD into the Powerbook here…
The LTSP is great. I converted around 60 Windows 95/98 machines into terminals at a school. I’m now able to take the money I was spending on OS and Office licenses and spend it on hardware
Mozilla, OpenOffice.org, a variety of GPL educational programs and WINE for a Windows testing app are all working very well.
I’m using ICEWM as the windows manager and ROX as the file manager.
I’ve started to put old machines that were in storage back into use. The slowest so far is a P100, but I’m about to try a P75. I see no reason why the P75 won’t work.
The students (4th – 8th) grade are learning to deal with the conversion with relative ease. The teachers, of course, are the ones I’m having the most problems with.
As in the article, I also use LTSP at home.
Anyone who has spent two hours trying to explain what “that little clippy-like thingie on my e-mail” is will appreciate teaching youngsters.
As a test, I was asked to install Linux on an old P150 at the school library. I installed RedHat 8.0, then stripped it down to bare bones, got it to log in as a regular user on boot and launch the X11 with Oroborus as the WM, Desklaunch and fspanel. I put two icons on desktop: Web Browser (Mozilla) and Log Off (which also shuts down). I also added Mozilla to the list of apps to be launched when the X session starts. (Yes, I will be installing Phoenix on it as soon as possible, Moz is slow)
Young children, under 13 mostly, took one look at it and found their way around. No problems.
Teens between 14-18 with the exception of some geekier users had some problems using it. The funniest (and the most depressing) comment so far has been “it doesnt have neti.ee here, we have neti.ee at home.” (neti.ee is Estonia’s biggest local search engine and I had left the start page to the RedHat default.)
People in their twenties or early thirties are more competent. They usually figure it out by asking a few relatively simple questions or by experimentation.
Older people tend to be really scared. I remember this one librarian (about 60 years old), who kept going “ooh that’s slow” and “aah that’s too strange” and “it’s not windows” while I showed off the OS. It’s sad really. Especially since there was just the panel and Mozilla on screen. I even made the X11 background solid black to avoid any confusion.
Lately, I’ve found that the comp just sits there on the table at the library. And it’s turned off. I told them that all you have to do is press the power button when you come to work, it’ll launch everything, but no, they are still too scared.
I wonder if they would pay me to teach Linux at school. People really DO need to know it. Even if it’s just the basic Gnome or KDE. They need to know the differences and the benefits.
On that note, what the hell should I answer to about 5 people who ask every day “why is Linux better than Windows”? I’m a power user myself, which means I run the strangest WM and use the CLI most of the time, so I’m not very competent to speak to users who dont really know what Linux is and just want something that’ll run the latest warezed gamez…
Ok, that was an off-topic rant… Sorry
Elver,
Perhaps you could get a gig teaching a “using linux” course as a night course, or maybe something that your local library might sponsor. A couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon. Hmm… maybe your local community college could use someone to teach a course like this. Nice way to help the community while also bringing in a few bucks.
Now I’m givin’ *me* ideas.
I don’t think it is sensible to teach anyone under 15 linux as a course. It’s still not gui (gooey) proficient. Besides, it is still too hard to do many tasks done simply on windows. How many Windows users (real ordinary people) who know that windows even has something called a kernel?
Yes, you could teach Mozilla, Openoffice.org, Gimp and whatever else in software. As we all know, software is what is more important than the OS.
Ranting executed.
somebody needs to make a linux based server distro *specificcally* designed to provide terminal services. That is, it is ready to go out of the box.
It’s clients can be regular HDless PCs. The server should have either a cd-burner or a floppy drive and the server should be able to create boot disks for the clients. Of course, net booting would be even better.
Some things will need to improve for this to become better, most notable the issue of terminal sound services. I really like the idea of the SunRay.
I too have the opportunity to introduce Linux to the less than computer savvy. Here’s what I find works the best…
When I setup LTSP I use KDE as the default desktop environment . I set it up to be fairly close to an interface they are familiar with. Why? Remember, choose your battles carefully. I find users will shy away from anything that is different until they get comfortable. At least that is the way most adults are. I usually supply a “cheat sheet” laminated card with a few keyboard shortcuts and how to run the most common programs. I keep this list very short.
When I used to show Linux to new users I tended to try for the “WOW” factor. Showing all of the cool things you can do, like loading different window managers etc. What I found was within a few minutes people got that “deer in the headlight” look and would go out of their way to avoid Linux.
KEEP IT SIMPLE.
The best approach is to gently introduce them to the differences with Linux gradually. Show them the similarities first. There seems to be an “Aha” moment that most users will encounter as their comfort level adjusts. After that they are hooked.
The only thing I usually tell people when asked why Linux? Is that it is more stable, they will be able to keep the same contact list for years without having to re-enter addresses after their MS Windows suffers a crash. That usually strikes a chord.
By the way LTSP is great as an emergency backup for Windows desktops as well. I usually create a bootable “emergency disk” which boots Linux from the network server and then mounts their local windows partition upon start. That way, even if their MS desktop crashes (other than hardware failures) they can boot from a floppy and be up and running productive again with Linux. I’ve won over a few converts that way as well.
for practical purpose, a linux desktop with
KDE/Gnome + OpenOffice + Mozilla need more
resources than a similar setup from M$
For example, OpenOffice needs 37MB while running
(observed by using top then hit M key) and on
a low end Pentium 233 MHz PC with 64 MB ram
about 55 seconds to load on the first try.
On a similar notebook (Pentium 266 64MB) running
XP Pro, M$ word 2002 needs 3 to 4 MB to open the
same document, 10 seconds to load on the first try
and 2 seconds on second try – the entire XP uses
about 40 to 42 MB of ram as indicated by the
Task Manager (CTRL+ALT+DEL then T).
I doubt there is any PC on the consumer market
that can open a document using OpenOffice within
3 seconds – be it P4 3 GHz or AthlonXP 2800+
(just don’t tell me to stuff 2GB for a RAM disk).
I am not saying whos is better, so ….
PS: If you have to proof for yourself that XP
can run using less than 40 MB on startup, leave
these services runing on bootup
COM+ Event System
Cryptographic Services
Event Log
Network Connections
Plug and Play
Protected Storage
Remote Access Connection Manager
Remote Procedure Call (RPC)
Secondary Logon
Security Accounts Manager
System Event Notification
Telephony
Windows Audio
Windows Management Instrumentation
“I don’t think it is sensible to teach anyone under 15 linux as a course.”
I don’t really see a problem with that… i’ve been using freebsd and linux for the past few years (15 now, used it ever since ’98-’99). 15 year olds ARE able to comprehend it, so why not teach them?
On that note, what the hell should I answer to about 5 people who ask every day “why is Linux better than Windows”? I’m a power user myself, which means I run the strangest WM and use the CLI most of the time, so I’m not very competent to speak to users who dont really know what Linux is and just want something that’ll run the latest warezed gamez…
Because for most Computer USERS, Linux isn’t better. It’s great for software development, and it can be a good value, but it really doesn’t have any real benefit over Windows.
The only way to really address these folks when they ask their questions is to find out what they don’t like about their current system, and then consider if perhaps Linux would address those needs.
If Linux can not address those issues, or those issues aren’t particularly important to the user, then it’s probably not a good fit for them.
On the other hand, I’m wondering about hunting down a cheap, elderly laptop to be used as wireless X Terminal that I can “Curl up with” on the couch while watching TV.
Does anyone know if this actually works?
Once again, a Windows user who compares apples and oranges. You tweaked your XP install to achieve those results. But i doubt you’d tweak the linux install. Red Hat 8.0 is not a slim distro, but no means. I can boot linux, with the daemons i need, and only use about 20megs of ram. X uses another 15-20 out of the box, then a window manager, i use either blackbox, or ion. Neither of which take more than a meg.
Load times in linux are higher than in windows, but, how often do i start a new app? Not even once a day, i just leave all my apps running 100% of the time. All is fine.
A lot of replies. Thanks!
Perhaps you could get a gig teaching a “using linux” course as a night course, or maybe something that your local library might sponsor.
Would be nice if I had the time. And I doubt that they’ll pay (much) for it. Plus, all the “cool people” are suffering from the effects of alcohol abuse on saturdays. And the “l33t kidz” would just be there to laugh at all this. I dont see any voluntary audience for this. However, I’ve distributed Linux CDs to some teachers and students already. And some were even interested. So let’s hope that they’ll do something about it.
I don’t think it is sensible to teach anyone under 15 linux as a course.
I disagree. I think we should specifically target 12-15 year old kids. Besides, how much brain power does it take to learn KDE, OpenOffice, KMail, Evolution or any of the standard apps? Xandros has shown that Linux IS ready for the desktop. Let’s bring it onto the desktop and let’s get some young users. After all, it’s usually 12-18 year old kids that do all the computer support at home. Let’s get them to show their parents what Linux can do for them.
somebody needs to make a linux based server distro *specificcally* designed to provide terminal services. That is, it is ready to go out of the box.
Yup. But why not get Debian or Gentoo and roll your own based on one of them? Just install the minimum, dhcpd and X11, then burn some CDs for the workstations. You’d need a lot of RAM for the server, if you want to support lots of simultaneous clients though.
By the way LTSP is great as an emergency backup for Windows desktops as well. I usually create a bootable “emergency disk” which boots Linux from the network server and then mounts their local windows partition upon start.
That’s a great idea! Thanks for sharing. Heh, Linux certainly has tons of uses
for practical purpose, a linux desktop with
KDE/Gnome + OpenOffice + Mozilla need more
resources than a similar setup from M$
You do have a point there. The huge amounts of RAM that Linux eats up are just too big. Where does it all go? But Linux with a more minimalistic WM (WindowMaker, IceWM, *Box) can easily outperform Windows XP on the same hardware. Now when it comes to apps, then yes, Linux tends to be slower. Could someone tell me why it is so? Will the 2.6 tree offer some remedy?
Because for most Computer USERS, Linux isn’t better. It’s great for software development, and it can be a good value, but it really doesn’t have any real benefit over Windows.
Ok so next time, I’ll just look them in the eyes, say “you’re too dumb” and tell them to keep using Windows
hardware requirements:
in the LTSP model, the hardware used for the clients becomes almost a non-issue, it’s the server hardware that counts. for my server, i’ve got a 2 processor P3 1.something with 4GB RAM. there were 30 users on at once earlier today and only half of the RAM was being used… with NO swap. yes, there is a swap partition, but i’ve never seen it used in the 6 months this system has been in use. all of the CPU, memory, etc. is concentrated in one or more servers instead of all the clients.
for the clients, the slowest thing i’m using is a P100 with 32MB, 100Mb NIC, 2MB video board. this was a donated machine that was simply too much of a pain to deal with using MS products. works perfectly as a terminal hooked up to a LCD monitor. in fact, it works just as good as s the P4 terminals. all one needs is a very basic system as a terminal. those $199 machines from wal-mart are starting to look tempting.
using the system:
as i stated earlier, i’m using ICEWM as the window manager and ROX as the file manager. ICEWM provides a windows-like task bar and start menu. there are no icons on the desktop. i put buttons on the task bar for the most common tasks: “files”, “web” and “write”. everything else goes in highly organized menus in the “start” menu.
i was giving a demonstration of the system to one of my “problem” teachers today. a teacher who hates computers and does not like learning (???) new things. she stated that the LTSP system is easier to use than windows. i was quite happy to hear that particular teacher say that.
my users don’t ever see a terminal windows and have no clue what a kernel is. they don’t see blue screens and dancing paperclips.
i’m not teaching them “linux” or “windows”. i’m not teaching them a specific version of a specific app from a specific vendor. i’m teaching them the concepts of how things work on computers and i’m doing it in the most cost effective, least annoying and least restrictive way possible.
terminal distributions:
here’s a distribution (modified redhat) with all of the necessary LTSP packages in ISO form:
http://k12ltsp.org/contents.html
The thing that scares me a bit about public thin client systems is the fact that you are not giving them control over a small desktop system, you are giving them control over your server. A dead server means lots of unhappy people.
What about people who run malicious code? Maybe a security hole that you havent patched yet will get exploited?
In a network with thin clients, a single client or a single bug could bring down everything. In a network with lots of equal workstations, a single bug or a single client will most likely not bring down anything except their own computer.
The thing that scares me a bit about public thin client systems is the fact that you are not giving them control over a small desktop system, you are giving them control over your server. A dead server means lots of unhappy people.
No, you’re giving them control over that little slice of heaven you decide the user is worthy of having control over.
With a web server, you give the user control over what he feeds into port 80. With a DB server, you give the user control over what he feeds into your database socket.
With telnet, you give them control over what they spit into port 23.
If you give the user a bash prompt, then that can be considered more insecure than give them a custom menu system to select programs.
If you give them a X Window manager, and a couple of apps, then you can lock them down pretty hard and still give them lots of power to get their work done.
Folks have been putting zillions of people onto computers for a gazillion years. It’s really not that much of a problem.
please forgive the WAAAY OFF TOPICNESS OF THESE QUESTIONS:
1) Where can I go to get information on setting up linux to run ONLY on a Compact Flash card & NO PAGE FILE (oustide of RAM.) I want to use it as a storage manager located in NVRAM so that if a drive dies, linux won’t. (this is for home use, NOT COMMERCIAL.) how small a footprint can I use? (the drives are Fibre Channel.)
2) What distros are there for Thin Clients (network boot?)
3) Do any of them support 802.11x ?
4) Where can I go to get information on making Keyboard shortcuts in linux that link to regular apps like Xmms? (I want to make a car mp3 player juke box. I need 802.11B WLAN support. I need 1 key to shutdown, and the rest use XMMS interface. If Xmms has a plugin for this, sorry for being ignorant, but please point me to the link.
Way off topic, but I just got int linux recently and am trying to use it in as many applications as I can (I’ve got LOTS of applications ie: Home made Network Attached Storage, Car MP3 jukebox with Wireless remote start/shutdown & WLAN for writing mp3/ogg to it, CNC/PCB Milling machine & software, Regular desktop for browsing, several thin clients with Flash or network only bootup for use in a Distributed Computing Farm.
I have lots of time on my hands but need some help on collecting info to see which distro is best for my apps. (none of them are commercial.)
–Awf(ul) Topic
LTSP actually can eliminate the requirement for the latest and expensive hardware. Maybe it is true if somebody compared Redhat or Suse installation without tweaking need more resources if used as a single PC compared to Windows. But, when use as a server for LTSP terminal, it require far less resources on the terminal side.
I myself have experience using LTSP terminal assembled from legacy 486DX 40MHz with 8MB of RAM and it run KDE, Netscape browser, StarOffice and other apllication without any problem since all of them actually running on the server but display the output on the terminal.
So those who need a lot of computer terminal for education purposes or others but with very limited budget, LTSP is the best solution.
Red Hat 8.0 is not a slim distro, but no means. I can boot linux, with the daemons i need, and only use about 20megs of ram. X uses another 15-20 out of the box, then a window manager, i use either blackbox, or ion. Neither of which take more than a meg.
XFree 4 mmap’s the video RAM directly and it looks like it’s using more RAM than it actually is.
With modern motherboards, the performance of a homemade Xterminal can be phenominal. I’m talking about those all-in-one boards, such as one based on the Nforce chipset.
I created my own setup sorta based on ltsp. But LTSP is designed to support a myriad of dissimilar Xterminal PC’s, I didn’t have any need for either that or their use of etherboot.
Those all-in-one motherboards with built-in LAN always have the PXE boot protocol built in. I use PXElinux to load the kernel and a comprehensive initrd filesystem. Then it mounts /usr/X11R6 via NFS. Very simple.
The Xterminal is based on a US$75 Nforce motherboard, a $31 1.3Ghz Duron, a $30 128MB stick of DDR Ram, and a $50 case. This is very high-end Xterminal performance for the price of a copy of WindowsXP.
I think it would be cool if somebody starts selling dumb terminals. Say, a 17″ monitor with a C3/Duron/Celeron processor, 128MB of SDRAM, a GeForce 2 MX video card, a Sound Blaster Live! sound card, and a gigabit ethernet card all-in-one chassis for, oh, $500-$600? Sun already does it, but I haven’t seen any x86 designed for running the LTSP.
Does anyone have a good suggestion for a cheap laptop that would work with 802.11 as a terminal for this kind of system?
I’m just curious what to look for on ebay.