Home > Apple > Apple Preparing New Upgrade FeesApple Preparing New Upgrade Fees Guest post by Kevin Adams 2003-01-04 Apple 54 Comments“Apple Computer next week will announce a plan to charge for upgrades to some of the company’s highly acclaimed “digital hub” software, a move that could anger customers accustomed to receiving free updates.” Read on at CNet News.com. 54 Comments 2003-01-04 4:58 am Can’t wait till all the Johnny cheap skates of the PC world complain about this, and say that the “PC is cheaper” forgetting the fact that every $100 they hand to Microsoft, they (Microsoft) make a smooth $85 profit.When posting the summary, actually include the fact that these tools will come free of charge with new Mac’s. The only people who won’t get them for free are the current owner. Even so, what’s $50 anyway? it is a piss into the ocean. The only people I see complaining are 15year olds living in their parents basement pissed off by the fact they’ll have to save 2 weeks worth of paper delivery money to buy the respective software. 2003-01-04 5:09 am n/t 2003-01-04 5:28 am It seems as though I am constantly seeing an increased quantity of liscensing fees for services and product updates from both Apple and Microsoft. I think they need to find better ways to improve revenue during the down economy, as opposed to gouging customers, or else everyone will switch to OSS! 2003-01-04 5:53 am “Can’t wait till all the Johnny cheap skates of the PC world complain about this, and say that the “PC is cheaper” forgetting the fact that every $100 they hand to Microsoft, they (Microsoft) make a smooth $85 profit.”Why should I pay Microsoft $100??? You never heard of QNX, FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Linux? Got news for you sunshine, it doesn’t matter whether it’s Bill or Stevie Boy who’s got you bent over the kitchen table. You’re *still* being screwed! 2003-01-04 5:57 am I don’t get this you have to pay for iMovie and iDVD right now.http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore/take a look under Apple software, on the left side under software and books 2003-01-04 7:03 am The point is not that apple charges for these upgrades. The point is that Apple attracted customers, switchers if there is any, by the fact that these tools, software were free. It is obvious the business model of Apple is to give away software or services for free initially, and once people become dependent on them, start to charge. It is a clever scheme of course, first lock in customers and then charge them later. No Apple customer can easily switch back, can they? After spending thousands of dollars for the machine itself, nobody can dump Apple easily. As a troll pointed out it is only 50$ anyway, who cares. Also the same troll forgot the mention that, most people who use Windows never give 100$ to Microsoft, unless they use Office or other Microsoft products. The operating system itself cost around 35 bucks. Also Microsoft do not start to charge software which were originally free. For example if Apple did Internet Explorer, we all know what would have happened to it, once people started to depend on it. 2003-01-04 7:38 am appleforever, one more competing egde bye bye. 🙂 2003-01-04 7:53 am Matthew Gardiner: Can’t wait till all the Johnny cheap skates of the PC world complain about this, and say that the “PC is cheaper” forgetting the fact that every $100 they hand to Microsoft, they (Microsoft) make a smooth $85 profit. I those Microsoft charging a high margin for their software have anything to do with the fact PCs are well many many many times cheaper? I couldn’t care less if Microsoft made a 99% profit margin or heck a 99.999% profit margin from what they sell, as long together with the PCs, it is cheaper than their competitors.Besides, the 85% profit margin depends on the product. If you bought a XBOX, its profit margin is lower than negative. If you bought a server using Windows 2000 Server (or Advance Server), I’m quite sure the profit margin is higher.Besides, CNet is the parent company of ZDnet, I’m sure somehow the article or something related to it would end up at ZDnet.Matthew Gardiner: When posting the summary, actually include the fact that these tools will come free of charge with new Mac’s.The summary was the first paragraph. You can’t include all the facts in a paragraph, now can you?SeanParsons: It seems as though I am constantly seeing an increased quantity of liscensing fees for services and product updates from both Apple and Microsoft.Quite true, albeit the only increase in charges for *consumers* by Microsoft is MSN Explorer 8, which is no longer free.Corey: You’re *still* being screwed! Yeah, you are dead on! Lets boycott every for-profit business on earth!Anonymous: Also Microsoft do not start to charge software which were originally free.Think again. MSN Explorer. 7 was free, 8 cost $10 a month ot $80 a year. 2003-01-04 8:31 am Gee….rajan, the last I heard, QNX is a for-profit business. My point is the AMOUNT of profit. M$ *is* a monopoly and I see absolutely no different between Apple and M$ other than success. Their business ethics (or lack thereof) are certainly similar. 2003-01-04 8:55 am Gee….rajan, the last I heard, QNX is a for-profit business. My point is the AMOUNT of profit. M$ *is* a monopoly and I see absolutely no different between Apple and M$ other than success. Their business ethics (or lack thereof) are certainly similar. If you don’t agree in Microsoft’s profit margin, you have the ultimate choice of a consumer – to say no. Use another OS. You may not be able to work as well, heck, you might get fired. But at least your ethic standings stays high.The profit margin for diamond mining is very high. Should we boycott diamonds? 2003-01-04 9:11 am Eugenia is a fucking crack whore who likes to suck RMS’s cock and gives u DVDA with ESR, Linus, Steve Jobs and Jean-Marc Loucifier. While Michael Robertson, Bill Joy and Steve Balmer spank off mighty loads of mighty whitey in her coal black, snow white-esque hair. 2003-01-04 9:17 am Although it seems that Microsoft started to charge for MSN Explorer, actually that’s really not the case there. MSN Explorer 8 is actually a sofware and services, such as parental control and so on. I wondered this and checked it out, and I found out that MSN Explorer 7 was only software and it was free, but then MSN decided not to offer the software for free, instead they bundled some popular MSN features with the software and offered it as MSN Explorer 8 for a monthly fee. MSN Explorer 8 is not software anymore, actually it is mostly services and the Explorer. Not that it was really related with my point, under Anonymous post, but I think if MSN Explorer is the only example, it is not the right example.The issue with Apple’s free offerings is that; you see these nice apps, and you want to buy Apple because of them. You assume they will be free, but then suddenly Apple decides to charge for it. People will be pissed off. Still it may make perfect sense for Apple to do that, maybe they are clever enough to see that they really can not compete with Wintel at all, so their best bet would be to make some few people to believe that Apple products are the best, by polishing those products as much as possible, and then charging a lot of money for that. So in some sense I think they do the right thing, because after this point they have a very slim chance to win. Microsoft, Intel have too much money compared to Apple, and most other peripheral companies actually innovate more for the PC industry. I think it is pretty stupid to compete with all that power. All the innovations are coming from PC or for PC. I was under the wrong impression that Apple is a force in the industry, obviously they are not. I love their design though. They know the GUI stuff very well.Maybe in the future, after Apple goes bankrupt or does not sell Apple hardware anymore, Apple would join the Linux community and port their GUI stuff to Linux. Then Linux will have Adobe Photoshop too. Of course I assume that Apple will go bankrupt faster than Linux becomes a major player in the desktop market. If Linux becomes a major player in the desktop market, then who cares about Apple. 2003-01-04 9:25 am This certainly is disappointing, but it is not suprising. Apple has to do something to maintain its stock price. There are two ways to do this, #1 sell more machines, and #2, rape the faithful. Well, Apple isn’t doing a lot of #1 right now, so, they are going for #2. It really is not a big suprise to me. And whoever did not see this comming is blind, Apple has a LONG history of this! Didn’t anyone get a hint from when they charged full no-upgrade price for Jaguar, or when they charged for .Mac after previously making iTools available for free. Next thing to go will be system updates, $9.99 for 10.2.4, I could see that. People get a clue, just put up with Apple’s pricing or do what 98%+ of what computer buyers are doing, buy from someone else. Apple will continue this type of behavior until they start gaining some market share, and Apple will gain some market share when they have something to offer, until then, avoid Apple!Skipp 2003-01-04 9:30 am rajan: “The profit margin for diamond mining is very high. Should we boycott diamonds?”Windows XP is hardly a diamond :^) and “Yes”, I *do* boycott diamonds. And I don’t worry at all about getting fired….I’m my own boss. LOL 2003-01-04 9:45 am If you don’t agree in Microsoft’s profit margin, you have the ultimate choice of a consumer – to say no. Use another OS. I don’t agree with this. I think once certain things become so common for public, once people depend on it a lot, I think the governments or the government can step in and manipulate the stiuation in favor of the public.I think the Operating System is so fundemental necessity that, no company should be allowed to charge for it excessively. Especially they shouldn’t charge for it in a way to subsidize other businesses. The problem is that as a consumer you don’t have really much choice, once every application on the world depends on this service. Many applications are written for Windows, people can’t just say I have to switch. So far, the only other choice seems to be Apple for consumers, but it is really not a choice at all. It is far more expensive and after paying all that money you still have less. The only reason why you may switch to Apple is that their products look cool. So as a consumer you are pretty much stuck with Windows. I think the prices has to come down, if their profit margin is really high. I am not sure though, cause there are lots of issues that needs to be considered before making a final judgement here. But basically I believe that, once the OS becomes the standard in the world, the company which builds it should lower the prices. But I have to differentiate myself from trolls here. I don’t think that Microsoft should be controlled other than this simple price issue. Price issue is important, because you don’t buy the Operating System for its Paint, Notepad really. You are buying it for many other services and software, yet to be able to access those services you first need to buy this damn thing. So Microsoft’s charging 500$ or 1$ for the OS makes a huge difference. That’s why Linux is so important to us. Apple is clearly not a choice here, as a matter of fact is like a puppet there, just seems to be a competitor. It is doing its job very well actually by charging more than Microsoft. Microsoft is happy, Apple is happy, but as a consumer my only hope now is Linux, but it is too unrealistic to trash all this Microsoft technology. So a better solution is actually the government’s control over the price of the Windows, or Microsoft’s voluntary price reduction. Microsoft is able to charge the money it charges, because it is a very good value proposition. Even most of the crap shareware is 25$. Even some more complex software is around 100$. Even Mac OS X is 129$. Microsoft can charge 85$ for the OS easily, because it is a good value proposition compared to these other offerings. But still I think Microsoft should charge much less, though that’s also pretty hard because then some idiots will come and sue Microsoft for charging less and anti-competitive practices, blah blah. 2003-01-04 9:48 am For the record, I am actually using FreeBSD with GNOME 2.0.3 as my Desktop. Right now, if you want to know, I am running links for my webbrowser.As for FreeBSD 4.7p2, I find it relatively stable, as for QNX, I am not running it as I cannot get my USB mouse to work, my CD writer is useless and to top it off, by video card is no supported, being I have to use the crappy VESA mode which does use any of the capabilities of my video card.Oh, and when I did get it set up, the TCP/IP peformance was terrible. It was worse that Windows 3.11 with Trumpet winsock. 2003-01-04 11:40 am Can’t say I’m shocked by this, after charging full price for Jaguar (only 3 months after I bought my machine) then making itools a subscription the iapps were to be next.But I wonder, since we’ll be getting an OS upgrade each year, I would assume that the latest iapps will be in there, so if I have just to wait until the next OSX release to get the apps, no way I’ll pay an extra $50 now for some features that I probably won’t notice anyway.Especially disappointed that itunes is included, since those of us with ipods rely on that app most of all, I can take or leave the others. 2003-01-04 11:42 am Eugenia is a fucking ….The rest i dont even bother to paste here.WTF is your problem ?!She built AND raised this place from almost nothing. She single-handedly provided a place for you to troll like you are now. A place That attracts A LOT of people and is quite revered as a tech/news site over the web now. Why would you want to insult her? Give Her a break, she doesnt deserve this.Get a lifeKevin 2003-01-04 1:48 pm I get tired of them too. I supported Microsoft for more years than I care to count, but finally got fed-up with their shoddy products and questionable business practices. In November, my wife and I bought two shiny, new 17″ LCD iMacs, and turned-off our Windows 2000 computers. We now use them as our main desktop systems, with me also using three Linux computers and a FreeBSD system. I suppose I can pony-up $50 for the “iTrio” apps, for a while, anyway. I like my Mac, and really like OS X, but if I get fed-up with Apple’s business tactics, I suppose I can always remove OS X and install Yellow Dog Linux 🙂 2003-01-04 2:33 pm There are precious few things in this world which are _truly_ free. Anybody who believes otherwise is either ignorant or delusional.The development costs for Apple’s software are hidden in the system price (one of the reasons it’s so high). Why would Apple suddenly start charging for software updates?Well you don’t honestly think they’re going to employ an entire team of programmers so they can give away free software do you? Yeah, that would be a brilliant idea.1. give away software to freeloaders2. pay programmers3. profit!I have two more comments to make:1. Apple likely wants their overall system prices to drop (seeing as how that’s one of the biggest things people bitch about).2. You _don’t_ have to upgrade. Nobody is making you upgrade. Don’t want to do it? Fine then, don’t bother. Last I checked the iapps were pretty decent the way they were. 2003-01-04 3:02 pm Ok come on now guys, how many of you actually PAID for a microsoft OS? Seeing as 90% of the people I know and have talked to online are running either w4r3z xp or some other flavor of windows, I can’t see the price being an issue for win users. Apple on the other hand, well, who cares….. 2003-01-04 3:18 pm With MSN 8.0, Explorer and some services (all of which is available for free via the web) are included in a for-fee package. It has some new features like parental control, but still, I can’t get a new version of MSN Explorer for free, now can’t I?As bad as the example may be, this can be said of iApps. From what I understand from the article, Apple would be charging for updates. So what makes you think that Apple won’t increase the functionality of iApps?Think about that. 2003-01-04 3:39 pm Corey: Windows XP is hardly a diamond :^) and “Yes”, I *do* boycott diamonds. And I don’t worry at all about getting fired….I’m my own boss. LOLTo some people, Windows XP is indeed a diamond. To me, I rather have Windows 2000’s UI on top of Windows XP (I can’t remember how much Explorer.exe crashed on me, kinda irritating).Besides, do you boycott diamonds because they are expensive (or your girlfriend/wife, if you have any, have low taste)? Or just because the profit margins are high? (Besides, on the firing part, I’m saying that dumping MS has some caveats for a lot of people, some quite severe).Sergio: I think once certain things become so common for public, once people depend on it a lot, I think the governments or the government can step in and manipulate the stiuation in favor of the public.It is in the favour of the public to make Microsoft a non-profit company. Yet I don’t agree with that. Microsoft got to this position with its own hard work, with their own intelligence, with their own cunningness. If the government is to step in and reduce the profit of Microsoft, I’d say it is unfair.It is also unfair for OS’s like Linux which depends on its pricing advantage to gain new clients.Sergio: I think the prices has to come down, if their profit margin is really high.So in other words you agree with the government stepping in reducing the profit margin for diamonds, as they are the most common carbon-based gem. Personally, I met a lot of people that can easier move to Linux (or Mac OS) because of their application needs. I have yet to make one of them switch. These people don’t care how much they pay for Windows, it is normally a very small price when they buy their machines.The reason why you see the profit margin so high, even though most copies of Windows are sold as OEM versions (mostly around $40-60), is because their volume is very very very high. If Dell charged Apple price while retaining their volume sales, they would be many times more richer. Microsoft just manage to keep its competitive egde without reducing the price (mainly because there is no competitors).Now, just say Microsoft decides 85% is not enough, they charge $1,000 for each OEM copy of Windows XP Home, trust me, their sales would drop so hard that you would really pity their shareholders. Microsoft can’t articially inflate their prices too high. They charge the highest their average customer is willing to pay.Microsoft is able to charge the money it charges, because it is a very good value proposition.Which is my whole point. If Microsoft charge too high, most OEMs and consumers would stick with older copies of Windows.Microsoft can charge 85$ for the OS easilySure it can charge $85 for their retail version, but would most consumers that couldn’t afford $200 buy it now? Doubt it.Sergio: though that’s also pretty hard because then some idiots will come and sue Microsoft for charging less and anti-competitive practicesIf it is government regulated, that can’t happen. Besides, if they charge $85, I doubt anyone would sue. If they charge $10, expect the lawsuits.Jim Strawberry: 1. Apple likely wants their overall system prices to dropIf this was the reason, why was it when RAM prices when skyhigh, Apple added $100 to the price, but when it went rock bottom, Apple prices didn’t even budge.If Apple wanted to reduce their price, there are plenty of ways..But they decide to take one that pisses their customers off.pc dude: Seeing as 90% of the people I know and have talked to online are running either w4r3z xp or some other flavor of windows90% of the people I talked to online is using some sort of UNIX, Linux mainly. Does that apply on the whole world? It really depends on what group of chatters you are chatting with. 2003-01-04 4:19 pm Sadly Apple is a no-dead and this is just the last try of a vampire trying to get some blood. Apple has failed because of their own errors.They lost their community; don’t make me laugh 4% it’s not a community and lots of people switching to Intel. They had something good but they ruined it, all the guys involved in Linux could have been apple loyalist but apple failed to provide them a good platform. Maybe they should have embraced opensource and become the leadership and now they could be RedHat.They are overpriced, they are selling two years ago computers at the same price than a P4.They have less drivers, games, software than Win and there’s no a community doing them like in the linux world.They want you to pay for everything.Let me tell you something; when you are have almost dissapeared the only things that can save you are;– Killer apps, apple doesnt have them for free. iTunes? Well, I have Winamp.– Soft against piracy, if you get people to use illegal copies you increase also your legal selling and you hurt your rivals.– Better hardwareApple has none of them. Let’s stop speak about apple, they could have been great but they fucked it up. 2003-01-04 4:37 pm I think that the iApps include stuff that require royalty payments, so giving them away for free to everybody isn’t a very good business practice. Unless you’re Microsoft Better to rant against software patents instead of Apple in this case. 2003-01-04 5:00 pm Could someone please mod down or delete that obscene post from Taylor????The iApps have never been “free”. If you buy a Mac, it’s part of the cost. If you buy OS X, it’s part of the cost.Upgrades to iMovie and iPhoto have always had a charge. If you got a Mac with iMovie 1.0, you have always had to pay $19.95 for the upgrade to 2.0. The same with iPhoto. Or buy a new Mac <g>.Really, comment should be reserved until the announcements about this. I’ve heard everything from the idea that they will only be charging for “Pro” versions of the apps (sort of like Quicktime – you get the basics free, but have to pay $19.95 for more features) to all kinds of wild stuff. Let’s wait and see. Due to the economy, I’m sure Apple can use extra revenue, but it would be suicide to alienate the core Mac loyalists. So, I’m looking for either Pro versions and/or inexpensive upgrades like they have been doing all along with Quicktime, iPhoto and iMovie.Ernesto, you’re crazy! 🙂 2003-01-04 5:52 pm I use XP on a daily bases running on a dell and its hardly a diamond, slow at times too. I’m sorry after running OS X for a year, it has been hard to compare anything with it, because X rocks. But on the other had I do like the cartoonish look of XP, but aqua is much better.I agree with the article that it is not fun having to pay for something that used to be free. I hate the fact that I was given iTools(to use for life said Apple)and now I don’t have it because I didn’t pay…sucks!“Apple giveth, and Apple(Job$) taketh away” space…. 2003-01-04 5:55 pm Its real name is “Bait and Switch”. Illegal in many places and professions in the world (such as house contracting).Microsoft does not sell XP for $x and then charge an ever-increasing random fee for each service pack. So that comparison (excuse) is totally moot.Furthermore, the Apple whiners should not try to justify paying more by comparing their Apple price hikes to Microsoft pricing policies or opensource. It just comes off like the age old excuse of ‘but its really ok, they have my best interests in mind, and I am willing to pay more to support them’. Apple is a business, not a charity. In terms of finance, you as a consumer are just a variable in the financial report. Do not confuse with product evangelism, hype, or marketing, which are totally different things. Duh. 2003-01-04 6:00 pm Kon, why don’t you wait and see what the real story is before you pontificate. Tuesday will tell the tale. Then we can pontificate all we want 🙂 2003-01-04 6:45 pm Im sort of upset, but I understand the move. Oh well, theyll probably include the updates with 10.3, etc. 2003-01-04 6:47 pm tehy begin charging for the software that only a certain amount of people will use and then they can offer lower prices on the hardware since the development of the products will hopfuly be supported by the price of the products rather than by the hardware sales. 2003-01-04 6:52 pm I fail to see how this will increase their market share. That’s their main problem. They should be willing to do whatever it takes to get their sales back up to 4%, where it was a couple of years ago.I also fail to see how this will enable them to lower their hardware prices either; many people will probably skip the upgrades *and* be disgruntled.-Bob———–Please someone delete the post from “Taylor.” It is completely inappropriate and not even related to the discussion in any way. I don’t have time or the patience for that crap. 2003-01-04 7:51 pm I think you missed the point there. MSN does not add features to MSN Explorer and then charge for the sofware. It offers the MSN Explorer to only people who buy certain services that it offers. A similar approach for iTools would be: Apple stops distributing the programs for free, and instead it puts certain services for a monthly fee and then gives away software only to those people who subscribe to those services. But that’s not the case we are talking about, what Apple does is simply upgrade the software. Whether the upgrades worth the money or not is not the issue at all, because even the current version of the software worth something. I don’t want to compare the two cases, because they are quite unrelated. 2003-01-04 10:02 pm Why are people complaining?My solution is to trash every pay app, and use a GPL equivilantMail.app = GinkoMicrosoft Internet Explorer = ChimeraIMovie = FilmgimpIChat = FireQuicktime = VideoLAN clientItunes = errr Mint Audio (wish it was GPL!)I’m sure there is a GPL replacement for the address book as well!! Ha Ha 2003-01-04 11:06 pm VidioLan is a very good app, macfilm gimp is another great recent port to OS X.Heck with all these good port(thanks to unix), Apple heads can use the free app’s instead of upgrading. 2003-01-05 12:02 am 1) Microsoft have been charging about $60 for OEM versions of Windows 98, Windows ME and Windows XP. They haven’t raised prices in 5 years. (It’s in the court transcripts). You people are throwing out $100 thing out of thin air.2) You can’t compare the gross profit margin of MSFT (a software company) with Apple (a hardware company). Dell has a gross profit margin of 16%. Apple has a gross profit margin of around 30%. Even RedHat has a gross profit margin of 66%. So it’s totally silly to just state MSFT has a gross profit margin of 85%.>>>I fail to see how this will increase their market share. That’s their main problem. They should be willing to do whatever it takes to get their sales back up to 4%, where it was a couple of years ago.Didn’t you even read the article. Apple is charging for upgrade BECAUSE their everything is free stuff strategy didn’t convince people to switch to macs. 2003-01-05 12:35 am I think that Apple needs to make the brave move to sell their X86 OSX and provide some real competition to Windows.They almost instantly create a whole new massive potential revenue source and whats even better is that they have no where to go but up.We will hear these guys stuck in their little box who will say, “Apple is a hardware company”. Thats now and to be honest software is what matters, hardware is far more of a commodity, so if you want to be a niche player forever continue on as is, if you want to be mainstream and be a serious player change is needed. 2003-01-05 12:37 am rajan r said: “appleforever, one more competing egde bye bye. 🙂How is this competing edge lost? The software still isn’t available for anything other than Mac OS 2003-01-05 12:40 am rajan r said: “If you don’t agree in Microsoft’s profit margin, you have the ultimate choice of a consumer – to say no. Use another OS. You may not be able to work as well, heck, you might get fired. But at least your ethic standings stays high.The profit margin for diamond mining is very high. Should we boycott diamonds?”As if thise choice isn’t also available for Mac-based machines… his point was that the Mac offers so much more for the money 2003-01-05 12:43 am Anonymous said: “Microsoft, Intel have too much money compared to Apple”Absolutely, but Microsoft and intel don’t have more money than Apple, Motorola and IBM.(I bring up this worthless point because yours was worthless…) 2003-01-05 12:53 am Market cap for Microsoft ($287 billion) + Intel ($109 billion) = $396 billion.Market cap for Apple ($5 billion) + Motorola ($21 billion) + IBM ($138 billion) = $164 billion.Last time I heard, IBM’s best friend is Microsoft (with the two basically ruling all the new xml-type protocols) 2003-01-05 4:06 am This is just like how many OEMs package software with their computers for ‘free’. People don’t expect to get free updates for the software that came with the PC… 2003-01-05 4:12 am //Absolutely, but Microsoft and intel don’t have more money than Apple, Motorola and IBM.//Oh, yes they do.Read up on the facts before you post your moronic tripe.Fool! Begone! 2003-01-05 6:00 am So they are including the apps with the computer, but unless you pay for them to update the apps, they function as well as when you bought the system.So what is the problem?It isn’t like they are bundling unregistered shareware or something. The apps are still “free” and as functional as promised.They are paying programmers to update them.Infact, only the people who use the app are paying. I have no use for iMovie and I am glad I won’t have to pay for updates to it. I have a choice now.I am sure apps that don’t get enough paid updates will be stuck at the current version or dropped.Sounds like a sound business decision with bad PR. 2003-01-05 9:10 am remaja: How is this competing edge lost? The software still isn’t available for anything other than Mac OSWell, thanks buddy for using “remaja”, the nick I have been using for years (until recently) in my email address, my IRC nick, etc.I bet you don’t even know what’s the real meaning of remaja.Well, now that you have quote me, try going back to the archives in threads where I and appleforever have debates. In many of the debates, he states iApps is a competing egde, saying that to get something similar on the PC< you have to pay $$$. My point is that now iApps cost $$$.remaja: As if thise choice isn’t also available for Mac-based machines… his point was that the Mac offers so much more for the moneyIf there is any forum trolls, it would be you. I have very different opinions than the website editors, not once have I recieve a warning about my “trollishness”. The person I quoted before making the statement you quoted never mentioned the Mac as an company that have less profit margin than Microsoft.Besides, what is your point? I never said Mac isn’t a choice. If you blew your money on a Mac, that’s your choice. My choice is to stick with a PC running Windows and Linux, I couldn’t care for Macs’ high high price and low low performance.remaja: Absolutely, but Microsoft and intel don’t have more money than Apple, Motorola and IBM. Okay, first you agree with my statement, then you make a statement that disagrees with it. Microsoft and Intel have billions more than Apple. IBM and Motorola is however a different story, but in case you haven’t notice, IBM and Motorola don’t exactly depend on their PowerPC processor sales. Besides, I never mentioned IBM nor Motorola.Besides, Microsoft and Intel combine have more money than Apple, Motorola and IBM combined.remaja: (I bring up this worthless point because yours was worthless…)Your three posts here are worthless.sam: Last time I heard, IBM’s best friend is Microsoft (with the two basically ruling all the new xml-type protocols)Not exactly bests of friends. Maybe arch-enemies. Remember, in many cases, Microsoft and IBM are arch-rivals. Take database software for example.Mutiny: Sounds like a sound business decision with bad PR. I agree. but it isn’t Apple’s PR machine that broke the news. Now wasn’t it? 2003-01-05 1:30 pm Please provide a link that will sell me a $60 XP Pro version with CD and CD-Key that ain’t some warez version. 2003-01-05 1:34 pm If you think that software is not included in the price before hand when you purchase a PC you are sadly mistaken !! Everything you get for a PC is included in the final price ! 2003-01-05 5:06 pm >>>Please provide a link that will sell me a $60 XP Pro version with CD and CD-Key that ain’t some warez version.$60 is what Microsoft charges big OEM manufacturers. Then Dell, IBM, HP…. put a MARK-UP on it. That’s why you wouldn’t find Windows XP for $60 — mark-ups (have you heard of it?)Steve Ballmer at Gartner IT Expo in October 2002 — quoted “Most analysts would say we get maybe $50 for a copy of Windows.”http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/steve/2002/10-09gartnerexpo… 2003-01-05 5:10 pm >>>>Not exactly bests of friends. Maybe arch-enemies. Remember, in many cases, Microsoft and IBM are arch-rivals. Take database software for example.There aren’t arch-enemies in business nor foreign affairs — they have share interest. And IBM and Microsoft have a lot of shared interest.Oracle’s biggest competitor is IBM, not Microsoft. Sun’s biggest competitor is IBM, not Microsoft. 2003-01-05 5:30 pm note the ‘ ‘ around free. I know it isn’t free, but it appears that way because most OEMs will not allow you to see the software costs of the computer or allow you to remove preloaded software. Now, if Apple showed a detail list of what they charge for a each peice of the computer, including software, you’d probly find iApps somewhere on there. They just are now stoping giving out free updates, which to most isn’t a big deal unless it is patches. 2003-01-05 7:07 pm I’ve just finished “skimming” over the comments.Notice that these words appear in the article: “expected”, “potentially”, “maybe”.And notice that this same information appeared several days ago on sites like ThinkSecret. IOW, c|Net is quoting a rumour… and you’re all arguing over it as though it already happened!Now, it could be that c|Net and ThinkSecret and other sites got this information from separate sources, giving it substance. Or it could be that this rumour was started at one point and has since permeated the ether.At this point, Steve’s keynote doesn’t start for another 1 day, 21 hours and 53 minutes. Perhaps judgement should be reserved until the actual announcement, if it comes, eh? 2003-01-05 7:38 pm If we get a trio of new iMovie, new iPhoto and new iDVD for $50 for current owners (free with purchases of new hardware), that will be just about the cheapest and best deal on a software upgrade I have ever heard of.In the PC world, you have to go to a third party for each of these, hope they work (they won’t by the way, go look at the cnet reviews for the PC “equivalents”), and then have to pay a $50 upgrade fee for each way too often for way too little in the way of added functionality.Apple is not making billions and billions of year selling (1) a boring and crappy OS for which a free and in many ways better alternative is available and (2) a boring Office suite that the world only continues to overpay for because they have no choice (locked down file formats).So we need to keep feeding apple a little money here and there. Bottom line, until they are making billions, they are not charging too much. Nobody can refute this so just give up. Apple has to cover its costs. That means generate revenue or just go out of business. The whole computer industry would suffer greatly if Apple went out of business. 2003-01-06 12:17 am rajan r,If you are both rajan r AND remaja… this is somewhat peculiar… as I have seen you debate against a post made in one of these names when using another…I remember thinking to myself that the two names sounded somewhat similar (which is why I made somewhat of a mental note of it).At the time that i read it, I remember thinking that comments made by one of the two names were genuinly trollish in nature… Considering the fact that both of these accounts had e-mail addresses attached to them (meaning, they’re genuine and not annon users posing as you) it looks to me as if you are INDEED the troll that this individual claims you are.Dammit, I hate it when people pull this kindof crap. When a troll is discovered on forums such as these… I would suggest that he be asked to leave. (less forum trolls the better)If I recall, you have been called a forum troll on more than one ocation here… 2003-01-06 7:18 am Razor: Please provide a link that will sell me a $60 XP Pro version with CD and CD-Key that ain’t some warez version.Start a company, got to Microsoft, get a OEM license, and viola! You do however have to buy in bulks of at least 100 to get the $60 price (in Malaysia, not including import taxes). But I reckon in the US it would be cheaper for companies.You really think that OEMs pay $200-400 for their copy of Windows? besides, not only do OEMs get cheaper copies of Windows, corporate offices also do, with site licensing.sam: There aren’t arch-enemies in business nor foreign affairs — they have share interest. And IBM and Microsoft have a lot of shared interest. If they have a chance to ditch each other, trust me they would. You mentioned XML standards as an example. Microsoft and IBM are only using and pursuing standards that would be vital for their competing products. Microsoft is for .NET, IBM for its incompatible suite of apps.appleforever: In the PC world, you have to go to a third party for each of these, hope they work (they won’t by the way, go look at the cnet reviews for the PC “equivalents”), Okay, I’ll have to admit that $50 for the trio is a great offer. For me, Picasa (IMHO better than iPhoto) and Dazzle DVD Complete (same rating as iMovie, oculdn’t find CNET review of iDVD, sorry)Both cost $80, but on price grabber, I can get it for $60 (which I can’t, because I live in Malaysia, so after things like shipping, the prices is still higher).appleforever: a boring and crappy OS for which a free and in many ways better alternative is availableWhat free and *better* altenative is there? Linux? I like Linux, but only because of its great level of flexiblity. And the last I check, the average Windows user don’t care about that. FreeBSD? FreeDOS? Something?I wouldn’t say it’s boring and crappy (cause I can say the same for OS X, and for me, it would be more true, but I won’t).appleforever: a boring Office suite that the world only continues to overpay for because they have no choice (locked down file formats)A lot of people wouldn’t pay money to upgrade to a new version if it was just a boring Office suite. They can use Office 97 and still stay largely compatible with the world. But a lot of companies depend on features only available on Office. Boring? Yes. Does it matter? No. Why? It was never meant to be fun, it is for work.Besides, I’m very sure majority of the users (at least in Malaysia) aren’t all that worried about compatiblity. For example, when I tried to get my uncle to use OpenOffice.org, he ask me if it had features like macros, bibliography and a spelling and grammar checker. In all cases no, except for spelling (but the implementation is terrible nontheless).Why should I survey people using Office? Cause it is a dream of mine to start a company competing with Office.divo: If you are both rajan r AND remaja… this is somewhat peculiar… as I have seen you debate against a post made in one of these names when using another… This is the first time I actually replied to any post under the nick “remaja”. Besides, remaja means youth in Malay, while Rajan (my real name) means prince/king in Sanskrit (I’m a Indian Malaysian).Personally, I don’t see the similarities between the nicks.divo: it looks to me as if you are INDEED the troll that this individual claims you are. If you are saying I fly hundreds of miles away, half way around the globe just to debate with myself, really you need you see a shrink. Look at my IP. It is a Malaysian one. Now compare that with “remaja”, it is a American one.divo: When a troll is discovered on forums such as these… I would suggest that he be asked to leave.Okay, divo, let me ask you to leave. People with have very different opinions as me, like Robert Renling and Rayiner Hashem and Eugenia wouldn’t call me a troll, but someone new like you can call me a troll, something is seriously wrong with you.I suggest you either attack my arguments (as oppose to attacking me) or to leave.divo: If I recall, you have been called a forum troll on more than one ocation here…Was it done by forum regulars like Robert Renling, Matthew Gardiner, Eugenia Loli-Qeuru, Rayiner Hashem, linux-baby, Mike Bouma, etc? Was I called a troll by regulars? No, only by non-regulars like you that wouldn’t attack my arguments of my opinion and decide to attack me.A lot of people have attack Rayiner Hashem and call him a troll, does that make him a troll? No, and I say that even though my opinions comparing with his are different as to day and night.Besides, amazing coincidence, isn’t it?remaja (IP: —.ph.ph.cox.net) – Posted on 2003-01-05 00:43:10divo (IP: —.ph.ph.cox.net) – Posted on 2003-01-06 00:17:35Both posts are made on similar time frames on different dates too. I’m not accusing divo of anything, but this is highly suspicios.