Announcement is here and the sources of Gnome 2.2 are available for downloading. Get more info about this version, and many screenshots here.
GNOME 2.2 Released
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
God I’ve been waiting for this !! Good work gnome team.
waht is the point of the tool bar at the top of gnome? it looks like it attempts to emulate the mac but it has none of the mac function…it is just a diffrent pannel.
It’s customizable, remove it if you want to.
i’ve never really liked gnome. i used along time before i tried kde out, gnome just doesn’t do much for me. seems kinda bland compared to kde. and yes, i know kde has alot of overhead and all, but it’s worth it.
Yup, I always take that bar out when I install Gnome. I don’t like it at all, it is completely useless for me…
The default Gnome configuration has two horizontal bars (one up there and one taskbar down there), and that takes a lot of space if you count them together, because monitors are wide, and not long. And documents (web pages, docs), are generally long, so having two bars horizontally taking out space, they steal from the user real screen estate. Having one bar is not too bad (however I would still advocate the left/right bar like BeOS’ deskbar or OSX’s Dock moved on the sides), but having two horizontal bars taking valuable vertical space off your documents, is just not practical.
>It’s customizable, remove it if you want to.
Defaults matter my friend. Defaults matter…
I think the dual bar on the mac is much less of a problem, as they use it for application menu’s (and there are good usability arguments for having a screen-fixed menu). The trouble with Gnome is, they have a per-window menu for each application, aswell as these two global bars. Just overkill.
Which is the best distro for getting a ‘pure’ version of Gnome 2.2 up and running with ‘pure’ KDE 3.1? (By pure, I mean one that hasn’t been mucked with by a distro maker.)
The one that you compile yourself. Gentoo might be one for example.
I’m back and forth on using KDE and GNOME. One week I really enjoy KDE, the next I really enjoy GNOME. What I like about GNOME is it seems uncluttered and stylishly simple. KDE tends to cram too much into too little space. Konqueror has widgets going every which way – half of them being redundant. What I don’t like about GNOME is Metacity is simple to a fault. It doesn’t work properly with my Internet Keyboard Pro’s special keys. I usually have the back/forward keys mapped to switching workspaces. This worked fine with Sawfish and KDE. It doesn’t work properly with Metacity. The keys will only bring up a switcher and then you can’t actually complete the workspace switch. Furthermore, Nautilus cannot properly use the extra buttons on my mouse. Again, having to do with back/forward functionality. Whereas in Konqueror I can move back and forward with these buttons, Nautilus just sits there. These two things are about the only things holding me back from being a devoted GNOME user. Hopefully they’ve addressed these issues in 2.2.
Nice improvement. But my #1 gripe about GNOME is the file dialog, and that haven’t changed *yet*.
I’ve found that the window list applet is pretty much useless when you have alot of windows open and it’s the only reason I have a second panel which is a waste. It would be nice if the panel graphically showed when a program was open and when it was closed it would go a long ways to help in the usability category.
I always preferred KDE, mostly because it was more functional while Gnome seemed to lag behind in development. But I’ve played around with the new Gnome, and I must say I’m impressed. Wow, it is a horserace now – much needed.
Of course, I still have not found anything that really works for me 100% – we need more alternatives to these two – yes, yes, I know about the splintering etc., but don’t agree. Choice is good. Competition is good.
And after you remove that menu bar panel, try getting it back (though maybe they’ve fixed this by now).
One more time:
http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/garnome/
right on, eugenia about the space issue w/ vertical documents. My work entails a lot of writing A-4 format docs, and it’s a pain when you have to scroll down. But frankly, removing bars is not that much – you gain an inch at most.
Which brings me to: monitor the only real solution. You gotta have at least a 21″ w/ high resolution to get your full A-4 visible, or as can be done with some out there, you can set your monitor side-ways (90 degrees) to portrait mode.
Yup, it’s fixed. Just add a new ‘Menu’ panel.
JP
Nice improvement. But my #1 gripe about GNOME is the file dialog, and that haven’t changed *yet*.
Why am I not surprised? If they change the open/save dialog it wouldn’t be GNOME. What I don’t get is, how difficult is for them to realise that their open/save dialog SUCKS big time and WHY don’t they change it!? Oh, incompetence? I have been waiting for AGES for a new open/save dialog and still no change! But hey, I don’t care any more about GNOME as I would definately keep my KDE desktop. By not making things easier to navigate, GNOME only makes it worse. I am SURE most of the GNOME users are hard core Linux programmers…
The issue is that the file-selector has to go into gtk itself, not just gnome. (otherwise, non-gnome apps that use gtk will have a different file-selector) It *is* being worked on, but won’t be out until gtk hits version 2.4. That means we may not even see a new file-selector in gnome until 2.6!
JP
I think the menu bar is a personal thing and defaults do matter. Deal is that I like the default. The task list is nice to have and I like the Actions submenu being seperated from the standard application entries. Having the clock up in the right hand corner just seems more natural and perhaps it is just my peripheral vision but I seem to keep it in my line of vision better than one on a single bottom taskbar.
It is also nice having the minimized apps for a workspace in one place across the bottom window list and having the full list of applications running in the top right far corner. It gives me easy access to everything. The only thing for that took getting use to is having the workspace switcher in the bottom right corner.
Plus, and I hate to say this because most people will just quote this one line and pick on it, it gives the desktop a slightly different look and feel to most of the other Windows-look-alike by default environments out there. I think that just about 75% of all the people who lived with this taskbar layout for a week would stick with it if they just gave themselves the chance to get used to it.
Even with a change it doesnt solve the underling problem: Inconsistancy. KDE dialogs will be different then gnomes and visa versa.
Yes, Open/Save Dialog is really worse then what we had in Win 3.11, and yes for some reason we STILL can’t “Snap to grid” with out desktop icons… the list goes on, Gnome people are aware of issues but code feature freezes always seem to occur.
Despite these (for me, very minor) issues, I still strongly prefer Gnome over KDE any day and despite attempts to check out KDE after it’s 3.1 release I just always go “Bleh” after a day and unmerge and go back to my little gnomie, Just my personal preference.
Glad to see to big Final releases (Gnome 2.2 and KDE 3.1), things are progressing nicely in the world of Linux Desktops.
I too disklike the default Gnome panel layout. However, I think it is a logical default. The top bar is the application launcher and the bottom bar manages running applications (I’m not sure about where the clock and applets should run, but it doesn’t really matter to me).
My personal preference is to run with one little bar at the bottom with everything in it (like Windows95-XP). A vertical bar works well as an application launcher but is terrible as a window list IMHO (making usable text fit into a vertical bar is difficult). The ideal (in my opinion) would be to have a few canned panel setups so that users can pick the one they like without having to manually setup the panels. This may seem like a cop-out, but there really isn’t one right answer. It all depends on how you work.
I do wish there was some whay to make the toolbar pack startup icons automatically (again, like Windows). I hate trying to get all my launchers 1 pixel apart.
I’ve seen a lot of people claim that Gnome/KDE suck because they are just copying Windows or Mac. The truth is that there haven’t been any major UI innovations since the mid 80s. Everything is made up of the same components. People claim OSX’s GUI is innovative. It isn’t. It is just VERY polished with a LOT of eye candy. Windows XP’s GUI is also pretty darn polished (Longhorn looks like more of the same). KDE is fairly polished though it is still behind Windows and Mac. Gnome 2.0 wasn’t very polished, but Gnome 2.2 is looking much more polished. I find it difficult to fault Gnome or KDE for “copying” when nobody has found a better way in the last ~15 years.
>I too disklike the default Gnome panel layout. However, I think it is a logical default.
I just explained later that it is many things, but logical it is not.
>The top bar is the application launcher and the bottom bar manages running applications
Then, there is nothing stopping them by making it DEFAULT the app launcher to be on the side. Right now, it just takes vertical space, and most people just don’t full it up with icon launchers, leaving the whole area “empty” and unused. And if people have 1280×1024 or 1600×1200 resolutions, all this space there goes wasted. If it was like OSX’s Dock to resize everytime you add an icon on the side of the screen, it wouldn’t be that bad.
I think this is why Red Hat doesn’t use the app launhcer at all either. It just doesn’t make sense to lose vertical space for nothing, especially when it stays unused most of the time, when documents are long and not wide.
> I just explained later that it is many things, but logical it is not.
You explained why you dislike the default setup. That doesn’t make it illogical. You aren’t exactly an average user. In fact, from what I’ve seen of your meticulous nature, you will setup the desktop “just right” for you regardless of the defaults. I just think that the current default layout may make sense for certain users. I’ve seen plenty of screenshots where people put lots of launcher icons in the top bar.
> I think this is why Red Hat…
RedHat’s default solution is even worse. They have one big fat bar along the bottom taking just as much space as the default 2 bars. RedHat probably made this decision because they want big pretty icons.
I can’t afford a Mac, so please educate me. By default is the dock always on top? What is the default height of the dock without any apps open (I spend most of my days with CodeWright or Rational Rose maximized, so dynamically resizing panels and panels that don’t use the entire edge of the screen don’t work well for me). Just curious to see how Mac deals with this problem.
>You explained why you dislike the default setup. That doesn’t make it illogical.
Wrong. I explained that documents are LONG and NOT wide. Heck, even SONY had to create the IA eVilla by ROTATING their 15″ 4:3 monitor, because documents are LONG.
>By default is the dock always on top? What is the default height of the dock without any apps open
Excuse me, but you can’t READ. I said that “OSX’s dock when put on the SIDE” (right or left). OSX’s default solution is ALSO WRONG usability-wise by putting the fat dock on the bottom of the screen. Apple sells many machines with 1024×768 res which makes limited if you don’t put the Dock on the SIDE.
The current GNOME file selector is unacceptable. I have yet to see any of the core GNOME devs state publicly what huge techno roadblock is stopping them from improving that widget IMMEDIATELY!! This has been the number #1 usability complaint about GNOME for a long time now. Don’t make me jump into the GTK code and fix this myself 😉 In all seriousness, if I had the C skills I would try and fix it myself but I’m not at the point in my CS skills just yet. Why do GNOME developers continually put off such a fundamental problem. If they have abstracted things properly in their toolkits, it should just be a matter of modifying a few functions to get this thing working properly. I understand they want to do things right, but anything at this point would be better than what we have now. Forget Nautilus, Metacity, Icon Themes, all this other stuff for now. To me the file selector is the most ANNOYING usability bug I have ever encountered on any GUI. Windows 3.1 had a better file selector for gods sake! Get it together folks.
johnfive
I think Eugenia, you need to settle down. I agree with your opinion about the default layout, but Roy’s posts are complete and interesting to read. It’s called “debating” and if he disagrees with you, he will try and figure out why you like it the way you do.
He obviously doesn’t know much about how MaxOSX’s default iface is setup, so if you want to reference that in your posts and he asks about it, it might be nice to inform him of the important aspects of it when he asks. “Excuse me, but you can’t READ” is not exactly productive – in case you’ve forgotten or never learned, all-caps is the equilvalent to shouting – not the best way to make a point. No offense, but his post is far more helpful and informative than yours, even if I don’t agree with it.
The FileSelector is already there for a longer time but it has been not yet put into GTK+ from what I know. You may like to checkout the libegg CVS module from GNOME and compile it then run the test_filesel program and get a look yourself.
http://snorp.coreyo.net/~snorp/fileselector-test.png
It looks like one but the newer version has a few Buttons added on the top but all in all that’s the FileSelector what you may see one day. Right now there is a discussion on the desktop-devel-list MailingList and i have the bad feeling that the FileSelector is once again shiftet maybe to GTK+ 2.6 instead 2.4 but I can’t proof say this. Maybe you gonna go and read the Thread yourself.
>He obviously doesn’t know much about how MaxOSX’s default iface is setup
I thought he was being sarcastic.
I have nothing against Roy of course.
Do you know where I could find the thread you mention. I checked developer.gnome.org and there is no mention of how to view the mailing list archvies, or even how to subscribe. So much for usability 🙁
I think I found the lists. Sorry about that… They should have a link to them from developer.gnome.org thats visible.
For those of you wondering about it, this post from slashdot may interest you:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=52921&cid=5234624
–snip–
Well, a new file dialog is planned for GTK2.4, and is developing in libegg CVS.
Note a few things:
1) GTK is a separate project from GNOME. That means, it’s not simply something the gnome team have forgotten to get around to, it has to fit into the gtk feature cycle, it has to go through usability reviews, it has to be tested etc. New APIs will be needed probably. Then it has to be integrated with standardised mime typing and so on. There’s a lot more work than you might think.
2) For GNOME2.2, gtk2.2 was released in time, great, fab. That probably won’t be the case for gtk2.4, for reasons I won’t go into, but basically the release schedules just don’t mesh. However, GTK2.4 is backwards compatable with 2.2, so when it does come out, you just drop it in – all the apps get the new dialog
–end snip–
In fairness, having 2 bars lets them spread things out a lot more usefully. Windows only has one, and it crams the start button, quicklaunch area, clock and notification area all onto the same bar, which rapidly gets cluttered.
So, really, having 2 bars isn’t so bad. BTW in the next version I think “menu panel” as an explicit type will be dying.
I usually get rid of the *bottom* bar….
Actually your writings are half true and half based on facts cut out of nowhere. Before starting a war and ‘techno babbel’ I gonna encourage the readers of this page to get a deeper peek inside these 3 Threads:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2003-February/msg…
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2003-February/msg…
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2003-February/msg…
The attentive readers of this Page will for sure make up their own opinion about this.
I wrote that post. What exactly was inaccurate about it? I should probably have mentioned that you can’t actually tie GTK to GNOME, that’s a big no no, but I don’t think I was actually factually inaccurate (this time
Ok my appologizes – Maybe I should be more precise next time when replying.
> Well, a new file dialog is planned for GTK2.4, and is developing in libegg CVS.
I was actually refering to this as being not entirely correct from what I read on the Mailinglist things about the FileSelector tend to shift towards 2.6 because of it having GNOME dependencies inside. But I may be as usually wrong therefore I liked to encourage the people to read on their own. Since there is nothing to protect from you or me it should be ok.
Eugenia, I thought that this was the first “end-user” oriented release as well.
Thanks Chris. This is what I have been told over and over for months now as well.
I like that they have decided to hide from the user the very concept of window managers. This, for general users, is a good idea and a step in the right direction for Linux environments. Good work folks!
Now, the next thing they ought to think about is to minimize clutter and give a more simplistic set of defaults.
Linux keeps inching closer to being usable for me. Since I’m such a hardass on Linux, this is actually praise!
I dunno about gnome integration, maybe that is for 2.6, but really the gtk dialog shouldn’t integrate with gnome at all, it should all be specced out on freedesktop.org
i guess we’ll see how it goes
the windows close button is still on the top right, and i cannot change it back to top left.
Does anybody if upgrading to Gnome 2.2 is possible in RH8?
This looks like a great step forward in usability, and also comes with many great features.
Their documentation is AMAZING, never have I seen such excellent documentation on an OSS project before. This blows KDE’s documentation out of the internet!
I think that the true star will be GNOME 2.4 though, it will not only have many more new features, but it will have all the killer GTK 2.x apps we need, like a new version of GIMP and Galeon.
way to go GNOME and KDE. 2003 really will be the year when the masses start to notice Linux as an alternative and many will even join the bandwagon, I’m sure.
I have with Xandros. Finally my digital camera and 3d work reliably with Linux. I can actually copy paste the files from an audio cd and I ahve switch suer functionality.
“Where we’re going, we don’t need roads…”
– The GNOME Release Team
That’s a cool thing to say =)
Anyone knows which window manager theme this is?
http://vhost.dulug.duke.edu/~louie/screenshots/2.2/12.jpg
Pretty nice.
That’s the Koynacity theme on http://art.gnome.org
JP
Eugenia, I have no idea who told you that ‘GNOME 2.2 is the first 2.x version suited for wider public consumption’, and you’re not exactly being forthcoming with any answers. This misleading commentary certainly did not come from the GNOME Project -> it is fundamentally wrong. It would make sense to remove it from the story blurb given it’s inaccuracy.
Please, before posting opinions posing as facts, get in contact with the developers to confirm your POV. Flagrant mistakes only serve to make your site appear less authoritative (which is bad for readership and respect).
– Jeff Waugh, Head Release Team Bee-Keeper
Jeff, I explained that I and others over here, we have been told many times by many people that 2.2 is the first “100% user-oriented” release. Especially this was said when I was writting my reviews, I was getting emails stating so as well as in the comment sections.
So, as you can understand, this was not an “opinion pulled out of my arse”. I got this as a FACT because _many_ people said so. I thought “what the heck, it should be true”.
So, DON’T tell me to contact the Gnome project to VERIFY my stories. What YOU have to do when you see problems in the text is email me, explain to me where the problem lies and together we can fix it.
But, when YOU, the release engineer of Gnome, publicly comments and says to the editor in chief of this site “pull opinions out of your arse”, I am sorry, but this is _unacceptable_. You have a position among the Gnome project, you are the one who will have to act professionally. I never said anything as embarrasing to you.
Mistakes in articles have happened and will continue to happen no matter how much we try not to (and in this case, it was not a mistake, but how the Gnome 2.2 was presented to me for months now). I have posted more than 5,000 stories in my life, and as everyone, I have done my share of small and big mistakes in articles. When we do mistakes, the people involved in the product/project are emailing us and we fix it for them. They don’t troll in the forums.
I expect you do the same, behave as someone who serves for a big OSS project would expect to. You talked to me like I was your bitch, and this is just unacceptable when you are who you are. If you were a random troll, I wouldn’t care less. But you are not a random troll.
The main problem I have with the a bar being at the top of the screen is that it seems to activate my Mac OS muscle memory. If there isn’t a bar I don’t have a problem going to app menus. But with the bar, I often find I instinctively push the mouse to the top of the screen to access app menus. But since it can be turned off it’s not really a problem, it’s the annoyances that can’t be easily removed that I hate.
Eugenia, were the “people” who told you this stuff even remotely relevant or knowledgable? Why would you trust random joe off the street, when you can come straight to us and find out what’s going on?
I assume that you’re interested in reporting facts on this site rather than hearsay and gossip, surely?
Jeff, the way these people over the months told me about the 2.2 release, it was on the same motif of something like this:
“Konqueror on KDE 3.1 will have tabs”
Yes, it was on the same motif. This is why I do believed them. Because they were more than 1 people. MANY had this opinion and MANY emailed me. The Gnome project should rethink what PR they feed their users and how these users might misunderstood a situation and propagate it.
It was never perceived as a hearsay and gossip, neither it was meant like this by them. Please stop accusing me and them. I can’t explain the situation better as my english is weak, all I can say is that I found it “natural” to believe them because these were *many* and different people for many months. AFAIK, some were PART of the Gnome project (I would need to check the old comments/emails to find them though).
There was no bad incentive behind writting this sentense on the story. I have nothing against the Gnome project. What REALLY buffles me though, is that you seem to have something against me. Instead of EMAILING me and fix any problems you might have, you are KEEP ACCUSING ME and you talked to me earlier as I was your bitch.
I give free publicity to the Gnome project, and you pay me back like this. I find this unfair and highly unprofessional from the release engineer of the Gnome project.
I tried to explain myself as well as I could about how things have shaped in my mind and in my mailbox for months now. At least I had a good reason to write things the way I did. What is your excuse for talking to me like this?
Anyway, I do expect an apology from you.
Eugenia, I think you have mistaken my subtle Australian humour for something else entirely. I’m just wondering why you’d trust hearsay and random commentary to provide accurate information for your readers. If you want to know what’s going on, you’re welcome to come to us.
So here is back at ya!
When you ask:
Eugenia, were the “people” who told you this stuff even remotely relevant or knowledgable?
I get that vibe I have been getting from Gnome all along: A snooty, smug, F-U ‘tude. We can be better then KDE! F everyone but us!
Yer Gnome, so what. Thought that stood for network object model. Whens that part come out?
You folks planning any more switches of the ol API soon? Might be a good plan.
Remember: there is no one as good as the *relevant(tm)* ones!
I was also under the belief that Gnome 2.0 wasn’t so much for everyday users, but I believed this had alot to do with the HIG and usability and the like. In any event it would stand to reason that 2.2 had alot of usability fixes that would make it simply; more usable for the everyday joe. Alot of people didn’t consider 2.0 consumption ready, so either this is an idea floating around in peoples head or something that at some point was said by someone and it stuck. From a developer stand point at least this would of been the version to wait for the way things have been going.
Wow dude, please untie your panties! It doesn’t take much research to see how much work GNOME and KDE do together, in the interests of interoperability. The ‘desktop wars’ are a figment of web forum poster’s imaginations.
We’ve committed to API/ABI compatibility for our 2.x developer platform, so no, you won’t see any changes on that front.
Unfortunately, in this case, I do not generally believe that posters to osnews are ‘knowledgeable and relevant’. That sounds harsh, but there is a *ton* of misinformation here, and it’s a pity that Eugenia doesn’t nourish a culture of accurate information.
If you’re looking for really solid information about GNOME or KDE progress, the main developer lists are the place to be. This web forum doesn’t seem to be a good filter for such information, as Eugenia seems to believe what she hears, instead of researching what’s really going on.
No offense intended, it’s just how I personally feel about this site. I’m happy to offer my time to help improve that by providing Eugenia with accurate information, answers when she needs them, etc., etc. Other sites seem to do this well, and it’s good to have accurate information out there.
> but there is a *ton* of misinformation here, and it’s a pity that Eugenia doesn’t nourish a culture of accurate information.
Are you done with your stupid accusations for today?
You are still not behaving like a professional. You are behaving like a troll Jeff. You should EMAIL ME instead of writting your personal gripes here. You are the release engineer for Gnome damn it. Behave like one. I never had Steve Jobs or even Linus posting comments here talking like that about the site and its editor in chief.
I told you, I ALREADY DO FREE PUBLICITY FOR YOUR PROJECT. IF you want MORE, EMAIL ME.
Hey, I was just trolling ya.
I love both KDE and Gnome. I wish we had a few more solid options. The Gnome team is great, and is doing a great job.
I think you should help out as much as you can with this OSNews site, good info is a boon, but for example, I do know about a lot of other sources of info, such as the lists, but for some reason, its a little addicting going to info sites, just to see the buzz on the street.
I dunno, despite some of the *poor* info, for some reason I really like this site
Normally I dont have a problem with you when everyone else complaisn about you.
I do find in this case that you are being over reactive and should ahve calmed down from previous posts before replying.
Jeff Waugh doesn’t exactly use the most diplomatic language, which the overall tone made it seem like he had contacted you before and the fact that you claim he didnt does show he needed to not react so harsh but I dont see him being as harsh as you make it sound. I was confused at your claims against him and wondering if he wrote you an email which was dispelled with “Instead of EMAILING me”
The way your statement in the article is represented makes it seem taht the wider public consumption is an official stance. I would imagine that users would think every release to be for wider public consumption. Your view taht enough peopel told you so, so it is indead a “fact” reminds me of a BC Comic in which a character stands on the pillar of Truth and states soemthing to teh affect that a majority’s opinion is not necasarily fact. Then you see three characters vote against it and therefore state for fact that he is wrong.
I can udnerstand your english not being the best. Here is a quote though which is correct if a person thinks of true meaning of words
“Profanity is teh effct of a feeble brain trying to express itself forcively”
That is how you are expressing yourself to a PR person. I sure hope you dont to one’s from companies and if so, Im suprised how far you’ve taken OSNews.
No, he did not email me. HE SHOULD HAVE. That’s the whole point. Instead of COMMENT here and talk like “pulling out of your arse” he should have EMAIL ME and WORK TOGETHER.
No, english is not my native language and it will never be. I am unhappy with Jeff’s behavior here more than I am with mine.
Well, yeah, I’m generally not on my best behaviour when posting to web clicky-clicky things. 🙂 Apologies for my rude-sounding Australianisms. “Pulling something out of your arse” basically means “fishing from nowhere” -> I really have no idea where the ‘not for public consumption’ stuff would come from.
> I really have no idea where the ‘not for public consumption’ stuff would come from.
I explained you WHERE from. Again: next time you have a problem, you should email me, you should not comment here in that tone. You are not nobody. That’s how professionals do and that’s how I am used to deal with problems in articles. Companies and project managers will email me and KINDLY will tell me: “Eugenia, this is wrong, please change it to such and such”.
And then, no problem! But the way you decided to handle the situation in regard to who you are _is wrong_. Especially when you keep accusing me after ALL this explanation I did for you! You just don’t seem to stop!
Wasn’t trying to be sarcastic. I just haven’t been able to play with OSX, though I did briefly see it on a friend’s laptop. I see how my post could have been misinterpreted though. BTW, I didn’t run away pissed earlier. Just had to get some work done.
I thought about the bottom bar/side bar combo thing. Usability wise, I agree that it is probably a better use of screen space, but it just doesn’t work for me aesthetically.
I think I’d be more willing to accept a big fat sidebar (big enough to hold the running app list) if I had one of those sweet 16×9 monitors. Damn, I hate not being rich!
Eugenia, you’re an odd bird. You seem to insist that if more than one person posts it on the ‘net it is more accurate than a person directly involved in the project correcting you. That’s an untenable position–let it go.
You are also requesting that Jeff act as a professional and as an official spokesperson… When the opposite seems to be true: you are the admin of this site–despite what you think, people are going to disagree with you, harass you, etc… when you get all huffy and puffy and start posting as joe schmoe because this is exactly the forum where you are supposed to be the most professional and official voice here.
I am just waitking for XFce 4 before I install GTK 2 and incidentally Gnome 2.x.
Why would I email when there’s this great little comment box down the bottom here? It seems to be an effective communications tool as it is. If something is wrong in a story, I would expect anyone to take that up in the comments, regardless of their involvement in any given project (though, it really does help if they know what they’re talking about)…
That my friend, wouldn’t be a problem if you could talk better, instead of ACCUSATIONS and “arses”. But the way you decided to talk, made it incredibly unprofessional for you and it literally pissed me off. When people in the know have problem with the text, they email me. This is how it works. Learn some PR/marketing behavior, that’s how I am used to be treated by the people who are involved in the subject that I am reporting on. Comments is for the rest of the people. When the article is about you and your project/product, you don’t talk like as you did publicly. You get in touch. Get it?
That’s how the PRESS can create good RELATIONSHIPS with the people of the project. You work with them. You don’t crusify them publicly. >:(
The way you handled it was WRONG. For me, for you, and your project.
This is my last comment on this thread. I won’t reply again.
<eugenia said>
This is my last comment on this thread. I won’t reply again.
Does this mean that Jess Waugh has the chance for the last word in a conversation with Eugenia?
Wouldn’t this be the first time anyone got the last word on Eugenia. :->
Does anybody if upgrading to Gnome 2.2 is possible in RH8?
You can be brave and use Rawhide, or compile itself, or even wait and lurk on the lists for some brave soul offering it as a RPM set.
Eugenia –
You need to
a) have a little thicker skin, and
b) learn to correct your mistakes when you make them.
You could forgive us at GNOME for being a little sensitive on this issue. You’ll recall that when, in reviewing GNOME 2.0, you said it shipped “with no real Help files”, we pointed out your error – that we had shipped them, but that you hadn’t installed them properly. You never corrected that misstatement either.
That said, when you said 2.2 is “considered to be the first 2.x version suited for wider public consumption”, I just figured that was your opinion, and that you were entitled to it, that you were ill-informed and wrong, and that Jeff was just pulling something out of his arse.
But then, Jeff isn’t paid for his GNOME work. I guess that makes him, by definition, unprofessional. 🙂
I’ve been compiling regularly on RH8 for a while now – works fine for me.
Excuse me, but I have to step in here. Seriously, I think Jeff owes Eugenia an apology. His comments were rude from the beginning and he continued to agravate the situtation by posting further condescending remarks knowing Eugenia is upset. My advice to Jeff: come out from behind the monitor, go out in the real world, and learn how real professionals treat others with respect. The same goes for all of you defending this idiot.
Hmmm … I guess I’m a victim of ignorance. It was my assumption that people within this community were somewhat more open minded than the general population. But, I guess within any group there will always remain ignorant, prejudiced, SEXIST, bigots. Well I’m not going to let the few of you ruin my day. This whole thread is a disgrace and not because of anything Eugenia has said. I wish this thread to remain on OSNews as a model to remind all of us that bigotry still runs rampant in our supposedly enlightened community.
Well, I fell to reply here. Even I recall that the GNOME 2.0 releases had various names before it finally get named ‘GNOME 2.0 Desktop and Developers Plattform’ or something like that. Months before the final release it got Environment applied to it, then it was just Desktop and at the final end it got named that way. But the main purpose and audience was the developer in first case.
So where is the problem ?
Actually at the final end, who cares a rats arse if it was that way or not. But no one has the right to come up here or on other places and talk in a way to foreign people with different mentality and education like they where intimate. Please remember, writing here is no privilege, writing here is a welcome act of friendship from the host. We are just talking about software here no reason to chop the head of people off.
This whole thing is getting pretty ridiculous but … When I was in high school I had a disagreement with my English teacher. I said some rude things and as a result and he demanded an apology. I refused and as a result he told me to leave until I was ready to apologize. I ducked out of class for one month until the principal of my school finally noticed what was going on. He forced me to go to my teacher and apologize for my rudeness. After I had apologized my teacher told me something along the lines of this: “When you are in my classroom, you follow my rules. If you disagree to follow them you may leave. You wouldn’t go on a radio show as a guest and tell the host he is an idiot.” Anyways, he made a good point. If you are in someone’s domain/home, out of respect you follow their rules or you leave. Which ultimatum do you choose?
Sorry but if you’re trying to equate Eugenia with the teacher you had, you’re wrong. Eugenia has lost her temper/misunderstood people posting in this website way too many times.
Eugenia–please learn to be more patient with people who post here. They aren’t all trying to make personal attacks on you.
Where I come from, using vulgarities is considered a sign of ignorance. Ridiculing the way someone talks is considered beneath contempt. Parading around and making a public circus out of something when the editor has asked you again and again to email her is arrogant and, in fact, meanspirited. You guys may thing you can trample whoever you come across, but you’ve made a big mistake. You’ve made fools out of yourself and have given Gnome a black eye. They should kick you off the project. People are what they do and say. Whenever I think of Gnome now, all I’ll be able to see in my mind is vulgarity, ugliness and arrogance. Get lost, you little punks.
Oh for gods sake. Haven’t you people ever met/had a conversation with an Aussie before? Pulling something out of ones arse is a very common expression, and not meant to be taken as an insult.
Just kidding. You both over react. Jeff didn’t say anything that bad, he was just being very articulate and used some harsh words, but he did get the point across didn’t he?
Furthermore, I think you both owe each other an apology. Anyway, that was a nice show, if i do say so myself =p
How is anyone in this thread a sexist or a bigot? What kind of out of place nonsense is that? Please keep comments relevant (johnfive). The disagreement is over a statement about Gnome, where it came from, and how Jeff responded to it. It goes no where past that.
Jeff Waugh said in this forum:
***
Eugenia, I have no idea who told you that ‘GNOME 2.2 is the first 2.x version suited for wider public consumption’, and you’re not exactly being forthcoming with any answers. This misleading commentary certainly did not come from the GNOME Project -> it is fundamentally wrong. It would make sense to remove it from the story blurb given it’s inaccuracy.
***
Presented with the oppourtunity to flex my Google.com muscles I located the following tidbits with this search string:
“GNOME 2.0 release marketing”
This string yeilded copy of the “Minutes of the GNOME Board meeting December 11 2001” at the following url: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2001-December/msg000…
from the minutes:
***
Present at this meeting were:
Havoc Pennington (chairing)
Nat Friedman
James Henstridge
Daniel Veillard (minutes)
Jody Goldberg
Telsa Gwynne
Jonathan Blandford
Jim Gettys
George Lebl
Miguel de Icaza
Federico Mena
Tim Ney
***
under the heading “Discussion” I found:
***
GNOME 2 status
Jeff Waugh replaced Maciej who stepped down chairing the release team.
A new schedule is being prepared to reflect the current slip of a couple
of weeks, waiting for apps.
It is important to keep the schedule on dotplan up-to-date so that there
is a clear message of what are the current expectations.
It seems clear that 2.0.0 will not contain the port of the big applications
The release should be named accordingly to reflect this, like:
“Gnome 2.0 Developers Platform and Core Desktop”
It seems some clear message about what this 2.0.0 will provide, its
improvements what it contains, is needed so that on can have a clear
message.
The proposed schedule seems to need an update including the core apps like
the panel, but getting a clear estimate will be very hard.
***
In response, Rob Brown-Bayliss had this to say:
***
If I may suggest a name rather than a number if Gnome 2 wont be ready
for the major apps, some thing link the “October Gnome” release and hold
of calling it 2.0 untill the big guns are ready?
***
later, Rusty Geldmacher responded:
***
The name suggested above is kind of long and doesn’t exactly roll off
the tounge… how about a shorter name like just Gnome 2.0 Core Desktop
of even just Gnome 2.0 Core? I think that still gets across the point
that it’s a developer’s platform. What’s the difference between the two?
***
and in defense of Jeff Waugh
(it seems he’s been patting out this fire from the get-go what with having just replaced Maciej as chair of the release team for Gnome 2.0 at the time these minutes were recorded)
Jeff Waugh replied:
***
The release team has this as our overview:
“The GNOME 2.0 Desktop release consists of packages up to and including
the Desktop section in our modules list. [1] All of the other applications
and components are provided by existing 1.x platform versions.”
[1] http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/modules/
A similar thing needs to be written for the end user perspective, to include
an overview of major new features provided by the platform, and incremental
updates to the desktop and utilities.
> It seems clear that 2.0.0 will not contain the port of the big applications
> The release should be named accordingly to reflect this, like:
> “Gnome 2.0 Developers Platform and Core Desktop”
> It seems some clear message about what this 2.0.0 will provide, its
> improvements what it contains, is needed so that on can have a clear
> message.
I discussed this with the marketing working group this morning; they were
also looking for a name to better describe the release.
The release team is currently favouring “GNOME 2.0 Desktop”. It’s simple,
and it works within the context of the platform: we have the Developer
Platform, the Desktop, Fifth Toe and GNOME Office.
What we’re planning to release is not particularly developer oriented, so
there’s no real need to call it a “Developer’s Desktop” or “Early Access”
release.
I explained this to the marketing group by pointing out the differences
between the MS Windows and MS application delivery timetables, and their
similarity to this GNOME release. From Win98 to Win2000, there were
incremental updates to the user interface, but many significant changes to
the developer platform (we’re ignoring OS issues here – GNOME is not a
complete operating system). Applications optimised for the new platform were
not released at the same time.
This means:
– we can parallelize development far more efficiently with separate
release schedules for the major components of GNOME (albeit having some
issues with major platform overhauls and delays)
– we need to focus on a number of compatibility issues in this release at
the desktop/application level (things like ~/.gtkrc-2.0, and the changes
required to provide some deal with that, so that applications at least
look similar)
– we need to communicate this positive change in release strategy to our
users and audience
I’m off to a Christmas party now, but I have a status report to post later
this evening when I’m sufficiently inebriated. </martin>
– Jeff
***
Seems to me this pretty much clarifies the controversy concerning the “Gnome 2.0 is_for_developers, Gnome 2.2 will_be_for_users” rumour.
The thing about an open development model is that even the unguarded, off-handed, stay_with_me_here…I’m_just_spitballin’ moments of conversation among developers are made public for all to see AND preserved for all to reference.
Thanks, Eugenia for such informative, lively and entertaining site.
__
remove the CAPS to email me
Reformist read the modded down comments to see what I’m talking about. I posted that comment in responce to a couple of those…
John, I’m happy to see you embrace the idea of fixing stuff that’s screwed up. I feel you can set an excellent example for everyone else on this forum by changing the name of Gnome’s documentation mangagment system from ScrollKeeper to something that actually sounds like it’s associated with documentation. Maybe “Gnome Documentation System” or something like that.
As I’ve repeatedly tried to tell you, the population stereotype of the word “Scroll” refers to an action within a window, not an ancient piece of media thats only referenced today by dungeons and dragons players (shows you where GNOME developers are spending most of their time).
There is an old Chinese saying: “Do not complain about the snow on your neighbor’s roof when your own doorstop is dirty”.
Dude, that was a *long* time ago in the 2.0 release process. Our strategy changed a number of times, but culminated in a complete desktop and developer platform release for everyone.
Maybe. But if your userbase are not informed more about these changes in your strategy, they will get and propagate the wrong/old ideas.
No wonder you ended up with PR problems, and admittedly, with some attitude problems as well.
Right on, Bill.
But dude, we have a *huge* userbase using GNOME 2.0. But they can’t *all* post to random web forums about it. 🙂
So why are you here? Posting?
Just asking.
>>It’s customizable, remove it if you want to.
>Defaults matter my friend. Defaults matter…
Yeah they do. I like the default top-bar, so who is right? Which is the correct default?
What I don’t like, is the bottom panel.
D’you know that this “defaults matter” argument is a bit hard to implement, when people *do* want different things, sometimes wildly different things. What is the default that pleases everyone?
Mostly to clear up the problems with the story blurb (which is now fixed – thanks Eugenia), but then the conversation got a bit in-depth. 🙂
If anyone has random questions about GNOME or 2.2, fire away. I’ll probably watch this thread this evening.
Huh, I gotta say these OS News threads are awesome. I’d say the odds are 50 % for each thread that there shall be flaming etc. but if the subject contains “Mac” or “GNOME”, there’s no exception: flaming all the way through.
Jeff, people like you have done more to damage the efforts to put linux on the desktop than Bill Gates ever could. No amount of money Microsoft could throw at a million corrupt politicians could outdo some linux hacker type telling people with usability backgrounds to “stop whining about what you’re getting for free” and “Free Software doesn’t entitle you to anything, so quit feeling entitled to a usable interface”.
So stop whining about Microsoft’s dominance since you keep doing their job *for* them, and quit feeling entitled to Free Software and GNOME being used in the public sector when the software you’re screwing up will wreck the productivity of government employees even more than the crappy UI’s of windows already do.
Software that deprives end users of the freedom to get stuff done with a minimum of fuss is in no way free.
I’m just kidding. We folks in North Carolina have a strange sense of humor.
Ilan: Buzz off, or actually contribute instead of blowing hot air over every forum you join. You appear to be completely absorbed in your own dreamworld concept of usability and how Free Software works. It was bad enough on Advogato. Yikes.
I remember in highschool we had an incident in which a teacher and a student got into an argument. The teacher eventually became so irritated that he sent the student out of the class until she would apologize. The strong-willed student, who felt she was in the right, refused to buckle under the pressure of her teacher. After several days, the student’s mother found out what had happened and went directly to the principal complained. After all, why was she paying tax dollars to fund an educational system in which her daughter was not allowed to participate? Eventually, it was resolved with both the student and the teacher apologizing to each other. In real life, you do not solve problems by exiling, arguing with, or yelling at one another. You solve problems by thinking rationally and treating each other with the civility that any human deserves.
Nice Gnome begins to be usable. And look nice. As for KDE, its nice to, but I _hate_ the fact that one have to pay trolltech if one wants to develop properitary applications. That’s not the way it should be for a desktop wanting to get worldwide support.
… As if you have ever paid for any Software and as if anyone cares if Trolltech wants license fees or not as long as you get the source and could compile it. But turning this question around then why didn’t people simply created a open-qt or qtderivate instead hacking up an entire new Desktop. Just curious but the question is still good.
Gnome 2.0 was released with few apps: no mail client, no browser, no newsreader etc. I would say it was not suited for wider public consumption. You can name the release anything it does not change the facts.
The GNOME 2.0 Desktop release was just that – the Desktop only. Existing GNOME 1.x applications did (and continue to) work perfectly within the 2.x desktop. There is no reason why fully ported applications need to be available with the Desktop release -> I still use Galeon 1.2, Evolution, Sweep, and many other 1.x applications under GNOME 2.0.
This is not a major issue for ‘public consumption’ at all, in fact, providing an upgrade and migration path made the transition to GNOME 2.0 viable for many people, increasing the potential user base. Definitely good work from a ‘public consumption’ point of view.
Don’t wait for the release; get pkgconfig, atk, pango, glib2 and gtk2+ and get their CVS version. It acctually works really nice.
Oh and in order to install the dependancy libs I really recomend ‘stow’. Configure everything with –prefix=/opt/<package name and version> and use stow to make symbolic links to /usr/local. That way you can easily remove them (run stow to unlink, rm -rf /opt/<package name>) when you decide to install the complete GNOME.
Peder
Since Gnome 1.x applications works perfectly within XFCE, CDE , KDE 1, 2 and 3 so this does not have anything to do with Gnome 2. The upgrade you talk about becomes realy nothing more than a change of WM, with some extra options and a clipboard. Granted you get a new version of the filemanager, but everything else stays the same. Gnome 2.0 was for developers and betatesters, for everyone else there was no reason to use it.