“Microsoft on Friday signed a pact with the Chinese government to reveal the Windows source code, making China among the first to benefit from its program to allay the security fears of governments. In addition, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates hinted that China will be privy to all, not just part, of the source code the government wishes to inspect. “ Read the rest at ZDNet.
Well, since they probably are not allowed to compile their own version of the OS, it’s very doubtful they will ever know if the source they are reviewing actually matches the binaries of the OS that they are running.
Summary:
Zero value
Zero meaningful security value in any context
Unless they are allowed to compile and install their own OS binaries (kernel on up), they are absolute idiots if they really believe this offers any type of security validation. Besides, it’s well known that many security exploits and backdoors by the government is often embedded in third party device drivers, as they have kernel level access to the entire system.
perhaps a chinese will be able to comment out the part that make the OS degrate over time to boost migration to new windows version, and leak a version on the web.
Too bad i no longuer use ANY microsoft product.
Even if they could compile the OS, if the compiler is supplied by microsoft there is no way they can be sure that microsoft aren’t putting backdoors in.
Poor Bill,
no matter how he turn he lost – China already commited to Linux. As for Windows source code in China, I think it’s a killer for microsoft.
Here is some info about Lovegate virus ( http://www3.ca.com/virusinfo/virus.asp?ID=14380 ) :
The worm announces the presence of an infected machine by sending e-mail to a specific account that belongs to a domain registered in China. The subject line of this e-mail reads:
!@#$%^&*()_+
and the message body contains the victim’s name, machine name and IP address.
I think it’s a typo in the name it should be LoveGates
> that make the OS degrate over time
Win9x had this problem (I had to re-install every 5-8 months to get some speed/stability back).
I use XP PRO for a year now and I have seen 0 degradetion in either speed or stability. XP has come a long way by being based on Win2k, so please don’t critisize their current products based on their 5 year old products.
I’m waiting for someone there to leak those sources. It’s only a matter of time until someone sneaks the sources out.
I still have DOS 6.22 source code on a CD somewhere here – got it off an fserv on efnet once and it’s horrible
Oh and dont mail me about it – I’m not giving it away to anyone.
I use XP PRO for a year now and I have seen 0 degradetion in either speed or stability.
…the other reason is that XP has various tasks which are automatically scheduled to exeucte in the background which, for example, serves to automatically re-order applications on disk to keep the system running snappy (fast load times). There are a number of tasks which automatically execute like this. To say that these improvements solely exist because it’s based on NT technology is not 100% accurate. A more accurate statement is that more attention to detail has been paid by MS which addresses a long history of significant deficienies. Many of which still exist, however, they are simply being mask by addition layers and services.
I’ve been using XP Pro since Beta 1. And it definitely has problems.
The performance is about 20% worse than Windows 2000 as PC Magazine tested, for one. There were many rumors then about how this artificial performance drop was forcing a system upgrade.
Windows XP is very sensitive to drivers, especially Nvidia’s drivers. I’ve had my system go completely bonkers because of bad Nvidia drivers.
The file system in NTFS also goes bad over time because of memory corruption. Because video drivers and other drivers were made to run at Ring 0, data corruption on Windows NT 4 and on has crept in everywhere.
There are various bugs in Windows resource handling that have been there a long time. These will crash an app from time to time.
Does XP crash? No, not very often. Mostly you have to catch it in a COM deadlock which will render the machine inoperable although the mouse will still work. From that point, it’s time for hardware reset or turning the machine off.
As for China & Windows source code, does it matter? Microsoft is not a trustworthy company. They lie, cheat, deceive, steal, etc.
This whole ‘look at the source’ thing is a giant smokescreen and just a way for Microsoft to buy time. If Microsoft can get everyone to upgrade to DRM-Windows, then the customer is locked in forever as there will be no way to get content out of Microsoft DRM.
–ms
>There were many rumors then about how this artificial performance drop was forcing a system upgrade.
I don’t believe that. XP has a theme with round windows which naturally takes more CPU space. Nothng comes for free when you add eye candy.
>Windows XP is very sensitive to drivers
EVERY OS is “very sensitive” to drivers. EVERY single one. I had BeOS and Linux dying on me because of bad drivers. Drivers is one of the things that crashing bugs WILL take down your OS. Especially graphic and i/o drivers. This is why people should only use certified/well tested drivers and nothing more.
[i]HOPELESS OPTIMISM must be a fundamental part of human nature, because we want to believe that new operating systems truly represent an improvement on their predecessors. It’s easy to point to certain features in a new OS as examples of progress, but end-users often find that a new OS performs like molasses compared to the version they were using. As a result, CTOs wanting to capitalize on the benefits of a new OS may find that new hardware investments are necessary — and expensive — requirements.
Unfortunately, Microsoft’s Windows XP appears to be maintaining that tradition, as indicated by results of independent testing performed by CSA Research and confirmed by our work in the InfoWorld Test Center. Our tests of the multitasking capabilities of Windows XP and Windows 2000 demonstrated that under the same heavy load on identical hardware, Windows 2000 significantly outperformed Windows XP. In the most extreme scenario, our Windows XP system took nearly twice as long to complete a workload as did the Windows 2000 client. Our testing also suggests that companies determined to deploy Windows XP should consider ordering desktop systems with dual CPUs to get the most out of the new OS.[i]
http://archive.infoworld.com/articles/tc/xml/01/10/29/011029tcwinxp…
There’s plenty more out there. Windows XP works quite a bit slower than Windows 2000. And it is not because of the subclassing or few extra bitblts for the 2D eye candy.
–ms
Runs plenty fast here (as in “responsive”), on this old dual Celeron 533. In fact, I find it faster than Win98 I used to have in this machine (that could only use one CPU granded, but on the other hand Win98 is a much lighter OS)
For many people using Nvidia drivers, the same exact drivers on the same exact hardware work fine on Windows 2000. In Windows XP, they will crash the OS.
Windows XP did a number of undocumented things with the way they handle drivers. Because of this, many drivers are less stable in Windows XP than they are in Windows 2000.
As you may recall, Windows NT 3.51 did not run video drivers at Ring 0. And it was very stable and data corruption was unheard of. From Windows NT 4.0 onward, video drivers have run at Ring 0 and Windows has been less robust.
There is a reason Windows servers use age old video cards that have been out so long the bugs are mostly fixed.
–ms
I find Windows XP to be responsive as well. Except for doing some things in (file) Explorer, that is.
The underlying guts of Windows XP are slower than Windows 2000. Why, I don’t know, but there was a lot of testing done when XP first came out and it was evident that Microsoft had not improved overall system performance.
–ms
>Windows XP did a number of undocumented things with the way they handle drivers
I can assure you, MS would give NVIDIA all the info they need to create stabler/faster drivers. And don’t forget that XP needs XP-certified drivers, despite their “compatibility layer”, it is well known that the No1 problem for XP IS the usage of non-XP drivers. Just use certified drivers and you should be fine (as long as the driver crash is not a product of another buggy hardware like in a case, where the (cheap/buggy) VIA 8233a motherboard chipset would crash the nvidia driver on Linux, no matter how much testing nvidia would do to their drivers). There is nothing that is black n white, so assigning the blame solely to XP is not right when talking for drivers.
It’s kinda funny that as soon as China said they are switching to Linux M$ decided to grant them access to the supposed source code for Windoze. Especially since Jim Alchin (VP of Windows development) stated under oath that opening the source code for Windows would endanger national security. Read the full story here: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,5264,00.asp
I work with WinXP everyday. Our network is running about 150 systems with it. Yes it is more stable than previous versions. No it is NOT faster. Yes it is a memory hog. Its fast startups are deceptive as the system is incredibly slow once it hits the GUI, especially at login to network. It is sometimes to the point that you can do nothing until WinXP gets done shoving useless MS pr crap onto your desktop. If you don’t have a minimum of at least 256 megs in your system it will be hopelessly slow. As well theres nothing that shows more lovin in the oven than hive corruption. REALLY NICE DESIGN NIMRODS! Strange glitches with older versions of Office. Permission problems up the wazu. Incredibly inept video resolution autodetection. Nothing more fun than trying to get XP to get out of an oversynced setting that it insists it just HAS to have. As I said earlier XP is more stable but as another poster indicated its stabilty is only skin deep. Underneath its the same old Microsoft crap.
I use XP and don’t see much of a speed difference between it and 2k, once it has been properly tweaked
I’ve ran XP on a P3-450 w/192MB RAM – runs just as fast as 2k did (and 2k ran pretty fast!)
In general, Microsoft tried very hard to come up with a better way of handling device drivers in Windows XP. For the most part they succeeded. And in some dumb ways, they failed.
First, as we all know, video drivers are frequently updated to fix bugs. And most of these updates are not WHQL certified. Many of them are not even certified to be “XP” device drivers and will pop up a warning screen. The failure on Microsoft’s part is that there is no efficient path to WHQL certify a video driver.
Second, Microsoft did not build in a hardware check function into the device driver admin code. Thus you can install a device driver that will not work with your hardware. For instance, if you upgrade the BIOS on your Promise RAID card but don’t update your driver, you will corrupt your drives. A simple design addition could have improved this situation.
Third, Microsoft does little or no dependency checking. Many times device driver problems are due to a particular combination of device drivers. Qualifying individual drivers as WHQL certified doesn’t mean much in this case.
The two Windows XP systems I have running here are both stable. I did have to mess around with driver versions to get them to be stable, though. Overall, I am happy with the stability of Windows XP, often leaving my main machine on for months without a crash. That is something very new for Windows which I appreciate.
Runs plenty fast here (as in “responsive”), on this old dual Celeron 533. In fact, I find it faster than Win98 I used to have in this machine (that could only use one CPU granded, but on the other hand Win98 is a much lighter OS)
Of course, he is talking about Win2k; not Win98. Win2k and WinXP are faster than Win98. I find that Win2k Pro to be faster than what WinXP Pro can do. Even thought, I did the heavy tweak on WinXP Pro by disable many admin tools->services and follow some website, but too bad Win2k Pro is still faster. But. too bad many drivers and games are doing better on WinXP Pro than Win2k Pro does.
The one and only thing I like about XP is the ClearType settings. If there would be a way to enable ClearType settings in W2K I think XP sales would not have been as high as they were (despite the fact that all major distributors are cramming XP down your throat).
When I was forced to switch from W2K to XP I was supprised to find the lack of earth shattering features that were promised to us. The GUI is different but who cares ? I personally think the Luna interface is disgusting. It looks more like a Fischer-Price toy rather then a business OS GUI. Granted you can switch back to the “classic” theme but still. Up until this day I still can’t figure out the consumer need for XP. It did screw the rest of the world out of $$$ but I don’t think we (the consumer) got anything in return for it. If M$ would have given ClearType capabilities to W2K (as a free download) it would have rocked but instead they opted for the M$ way and bundeled a bloated, slower product to the ClearType technology (and made sure it ONLY runs on that bloated product) and started grabbing everyone by the nuts to upgrade. M$ is already one of the richest companies in the world (they have a 253 BILLION market capitol). Why do you need more money ? You’re #1 already. You are are giant behemoth industy leader. Stop acting like a dying .com and behave like the leader. Start producing products that innovate and stop ripping people off. Sorry about that my rant is over. Just shit like this really gets me going…
Yes, that’s your opinion. If their OS did not degrade in performance, or have other problems there would be no need for service packs or new releases of software. As for XP not degrading, let me tell you about a little hibernation problem that *I* had..
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;326147
I’m glad your experience was better than mine, however there are REAL problems with XP that you seemingly tend to ignore.
Everybody stop the “Windows is slow” and “Windows is buggy” FUD right now. Windows XP is one of the best-designed operating systems ever, with mainframe grade technology giving you a more reliable and secure e-bussiness experience. If your computer crashes, it is a driver problem — in fact Windows XP kernel has been certified (with mathematical logic and induction) to contain no major flaws.
but xp is remarkably stable for me.
if you are serious about cad/3d animation, win2k is faster though.
> find Windows XP to be
> responsive as well.
Not for me. The speed on my laptop is a nightmare, and I have reinstalled many times. At work, I have had to try two different machines. On the one, the speed was slow as hell, and it would freeze at least twice a day. On the other, it doesn’t freeze as much, but the speed is still bad. The later is an Dell Optiplex, by the way. If I had the choice, I would probably run RedHat 8 on everything all the time.
I hope the Chineese don’t get fooled. Next thing you know, MS will be offering them Windows for Free.
>in fact Windows XP kernel has been certified (with >mathematical logic and induction) to contain no major flaws.
Certified by who? Microsoft?
The Windows Kernel has been certified by Microsoft Research. What did you think these guys do, after all? After they are done inventing new spyware to put in Windows, they certify the kernel. It is an age old ritual.
Billy: “What you doin, Bob?”
Bob: “Well, I was just about getting ready to certify the kernel.”
Billy: beams a big smile and walks away
I’m waiting for someone there to leak those sources. It’s only a matter of time until someone sneaks the sources out.
To be honest, the source code for Windows is so emense and hairy that there are really only a small number of people on the planet that can understand it. Belive me, I’ve seen it. So whether or not it is leaked probably will make little difference.
The performance is about 20% worse than Windows 2000…
This is untrue. Windows XP has more services and various UI goo elements turned on by default which make it seem slower. If you disable all this stuff, it is actually quite a bit faster than W2K.
And it is not because of the subclassing or few extra bitblts for the 2D eye candy
You have no idea how expensive those ‘few bitblts’ are. Eye candy is a killer, make no mistake. What is the most trying environment for a computer? Video gaming, and why? Well eye candy, of course! But just to humor the suggestion, have you tried turning off the non-eye candy cpu hog crap, like system restore? There is another hog of resources. XP is littered with such resources. You’ll find that when you boot 2003 server, it is very fast. This is because all that stuff is off by default. 2003 server is basically just XPSP1 with the server technologies integrated, and services turned off to start.
Windows XP is very sensitive to drivers, especially Nvidia’s drivers. I’ve had my system go completely bonkers because of bad Nvidia drivers.
Wait just a minute. DRIVERS RUN IN KERNEL MODE! If a driver decides to write over, say… the MEMORY MANAGER, it can!!! This is not a fault of Windows, but NVidia.
Microsoft is not a trustworthy company. They lie, cheat, deceive, steal, etc.
Microsoft does not lie, cheat, or steal. Microsoft plays well in business, completely, totally, ruthlessly annihilating the competition. That is the truth. People don’t like to be beaten into the ground, so they fight back by saying that somehow Microsoft cheated, because *of course* the people could not have been beaten legitamately! This comment was personally afronting. I work at MS, and I do not ‘lie, cheat, or steal’. I detest people who do.
Incredibly inept video resolution autodetection
Um, are you comparing this to *nix? I can’t even get X to boot without screen artifacts on my FreeBSD box, and then when I try to go back to text mode, it is garbled junk which is completely unreadable and I have to reboot remotely.
RE: Windows XP – driver issues Michael: Kudos; good argument.
As for XP not degrading, let me tell you about a little hibernation problem that *I* had..
Ha, ha, ha, yes; power management is one BIG hurdle the PC platform still hasn’t been able to get over. I used to work on this stuff in Windows, and I’ll tell you that it is a COMPLETE NIGHTMARE.
with mainframe grade technology giving you a more reliable and secure e-bussiness experience
Well, I don’t know about mainframe technology, but XP does seem to play well in the business space.
OK, now my personal list:
My XP Likes:(just the main ones)
– ClearType
As a note, I run ClearType and high DPI on my dev machine (which looks fantastic), which is an older Dell Precision Workstation with dual Voodoo3’s. Win2K Server used to hard hang running high DPI on this machine, I have no idea why, but it would be completely unresponsive, both locally and remote.
– Fast User Switching
My wife and I share a computer at home, and fast user switching is AWESOME. I love the fact that I can scoot her stuff out of the way with a quick <windows>-L and a click on my login icon.
– Remote desktop
I love that I can access my home computers from work and my work computers from home. This was a really cool feature add to XP. And for you UNIX folks, remote desktop automatically shares my local drives to the remote computer *using my local NTLM perms*, if I tell it to. This is awesome for transfering files between my work domain, and my home network, for which I have different user credentials. It also will stream music off my work computer and play it through my home computer’s audio system, if I want. It is really a pretty good design.
My XP Gripes:(just the main ones)
– Remote desktop
Remote desktop has got to be the buggiest feature in XP. I find that sometimes I just can’t log in remotely. I open up the remote desktop session, log in, and it just sits there with the UI disabled like it is loging in. But the thing is, it isn’t. If I go to the console and log in, it will log me right in, even though the other session is *supposedly* starting up! Don’t even get me started with Media Player running remotely, while leaving the sound at the other computer.
– 3 theme colors?
There should be like hundreds of these things, in the box!
– Explorer is slooooooooooow
I think everyone agrees with me here.
– IE Navigation
Ok, I really, really don’t like when I have an IE window open, then double click an icon for a saved link, and it navigates the window I had open! There is a REASON I had the window open in the first place!!
– System Restore
I don’t ever use it, and I wish it was off by default.
Microsoft is ruthless, sure. But beyond being ruthless, Microsoft is a thieving lying company no doubt.
Remember Stac? Are you saying Microsoft didn’t STEAL code from them?
This is just one example. There are literally hundreds of small companies that Microsoft has stolen from. I think there is a big lawsuit going on now… Sendo.
As for lying… we have the wonderful testimony before the DOJ to attest to that.
How about Alchin saying Windows source code cannot be shown because it is a risk to national security… and now Microsoft is showing it to China. Hmmmm.
Again, just one example. I’m talking about Microsoft’s reputation in industy here. They are viewed as a zero-integrity company.
–ms
– IE Navigation
Ok, I really, really don’t like when I have an IE window open, then double click an icon for a saved link, and it navigates the window I had open! There is a REASON I had the window open in the first place!!
I can help you with this one…
[Tools] – [Internet Options] – [Advanced] – [Browsing] – [Reuse windows for short cuts]; make sure this is turned off (why it’s on by default is anyones guess).
“Up until this day I still can’t figure out the consumer need for XP. It did screw the rest of the world out of $$$ but I don’t think we (the consumer) got anything in return for it.”
Because the home/desktop user was still stuck with Windows ME. XP is the first copy of Windows that I have purchased from the store that wasn’t already bundled on my computer. It was worth every penny. Whereas my computer used to crash several times a day with ME (no joke!), XP will crash maybe once or twice every six months. Add other benefits such as NTFS, user accounts, faster boot, better security, cleaner interface and we have a winner.
If you use Win2k or WinXP and have frequent (or even infrequent for that matter) system crashes, you either:
1) Have shitty hardware
2) Have shitty drivers
3) Have some sort of virus/spyware that is reaking havoc on your system.
My contention is that if you don’t have Windows crash on you, you’re obviously not USING your system.
I think Windows is great for games. However, to claim that it is stable and never crashes, except for when you’re having issues with your bowel movements, is an absolute joke and razes the credibility of your opinion.
I have been on the 2k kernel for over 2 years and I have have had NO stability problems … zero … NONE.
I mean, even if you hate Windows, you have to admit that the latter versions have become pretty stable,
2000 was pretty good, but it still is not as able as Linux is for my needs. Also, security is still a big issue with Windows and many of its products.
To say things like “Windows crashes all the time” is about as factual as saying “Modern Linux distros are still hard to install.”
I don’t have too many problems with Windows 2000 crashing (I can’t say the same about XP), but I do have problems with it gradually slowing down until it is absolutely worthless and I have to reboot. Also, when I have uptimes on my Linux machine of more that 3 years and the longest I have been able to keep Windows running is about 6 months, I’d say Windows has some catching up to do.
All Microsoft have to do is supply source code without any of the “security features”. Then if China says its ok, they simply
release the XP binary with the “secuirty features” added back in. If you they don’t build the system from original source each
time is difficult to tell if the binary matches the source.
> I think Windows is great for games. However, to claim that it is stable and never crashes, except for when you’re having issues with your bowel movements, is an absolute joke and razes the credibility of your opinion.
ALL OSes have problems and bugs that only surface on particular configurations but not on others. The important thing is to think which platform is more stable, generally. For me, XP is the most stable of all (I am talking about desktops here). Maybe OSX is after that.
As for Linux and BeOS, I don’t trust any of them, I can crash them every few days (especially BeOS).
As for servers, our FreeBSD server here at home is _extremely_ stable!
>>>>How about Alchin saying Windows source code cannot be shown because it is a risk to national security… and now Microsoft is showing it to China. Hmmmm.
I don’t see anything wrong with that.
Russians are explicitly allowed by the American government (arms control treaty) to look at Area 51 from their own russian satellites. But American citizens are not allowed to look at Area 51 because of national security.
That’s how national security works.
lol national security…theya re afraid we will start an uprising ro what? show our military bases to potental enemies and not to citizens….kind of backwards..
Looks like you dug up one of my old posts, but ok …
My contention is that if you don’t have Windows crash on you, you’re obviously not USING your system.
My contention is that if you make comments like that, you’re not actually USING your brain. I love it when other people try to tell me how stable (or not) my own box is.
However, to claim that it is stable and never crashes, except for when you’re having issues with your bowel movements, is an absolute joke and razes the credibility of your opinion.
I never said it never crashes. What I’m saying is that it the latest versions don’t crash ‘all the time’, as some zealots like to claim.
Also, when I have uptimes on my Linux machine of more that 3 years and the longest I have been able to keep Windows running is about 6 months, I’d say Windows has some catching up to do.
Why the hell is uptime so important to you on a desktop system? Does knowing your Linux box has been running for 3 years help you jerk off a little better at night?
I mean, Jesus Christ … even if you had to reboot ANY OS once a week … just do it when you have to take a piss, and it’ll probably be done by the time you get back. Honestly, I don’t understand why people have this fetish about keeping their systems up and running for years at a time. Hell, if there was a power outage and their UPS didn’t hold up, they’d probably have to drink a 6-pack of Heiniken just to get over the grief of it all.
Cant be true, if chinese government gets a hold of the windows source code, they will be able to easily find all kind of exploits much easier, giving them a great chance for corporate/international espionage and stuff to gain commercial advantages.. I very-much-doubt it, and more than jbush allowed these.
>> Windows XP is one of the best-designed operating systems ever, with mainframe grade technology giving you a more reliable and secure e-bussiness experience.
I don’t know it, but by now they must have some idea of how to design an OS. I concede it may be even good. But everything has flaws you know, nothing is perfect.
>> in fact Windows XP kernel has been certified (with mathematical logic and induction) to contain no major flaws.
Sorry, cannot be.
I didn’t graduate in CS, but the elementar courses I took made it very clear that it was demonstrated that _no_ program can be proved to have no flaws.
So, by the same token, it’s impossible to prove XP wouldn’t have a major flaw.
If they told you like you said, they don’t know very basic CS.
I have a a brochure from Microsoft sent out about a year and a half ago to prospective clients which basically tried to explain why win2k products to Linux. There is some clear misinformation (lies?!?!) in the brochure. For example…the pamphlet was released around Linux 2.4.1x, among other things, the brochure claims that Linux has no for support for USB or “Firewire”. At the time, Firewire was experimental, but USB was certainly experimental. There are several other such examples in which MS makes patently false statements in advertising. Don’t believe me — I can give the the part number for this brochure — I ordered a slew of these pamphlets based. Yes, a minor example, but it was my little form of concrete proof that MS misleads, if not blatently lies, in advertising. I did not contact them on this matter — however, had I did, I can here the responses such as “we were actually testing a 2.0.x kernel” or “by no support, we were by now way implying that USB is not implemented in the kernel or user space utilities — we were expressing our belief that no single commercial entity offers support for USB in Linux”. Heh.
So What’s next ? Source code to be revealed to North Korea, Libya, Iran and Cuba !
So What’s next ? Source code to be revealed to North Korea, Libya, Iran and Cuba !
We do take IP abuse VERY SERIOUSLY in the USA, don’t we?
And we do need a “reason” to mount a massive pre-emptive “shock and awe” death strike on these countries, don’t we?
And we do know most of these countries are already the “axis of evil” before they “stole” the Windows source code, don’t we?
It’s all part of the game. The government’s burgeoning anti-cyber-terror taskforce wants to get into the action. Once one of these eeeeevil countries grabs the Windows source code, it will make it possible for the government to enact Patriot Act II and other anti-freedom legislation.
Good insight, Anonymous. Next time use the PGP Shoe Phone 😉
Credible post til you put your head back in the sand
regarding MS behaviour. I can’t blame you.
If I worked at MS I would reach for the old standby
of denial as a coping mechanism.
MS is lucky the DOJ trial was overshadowed by Impeachment
or everyone would have seen
1) the infamous “swithced” video showing how removing
IE breaks Windows.
2. Bill G’s testimony made Bill C look like boyscout.
A smaller company that tried this stuff would be conducting business from jail cells.
>> in fact Windows XP kernel has been certified (with mathematical logic and induction) to contain no major flaws.
> Sorry, cannot be.
> I didn’t graduate in CS, but the elementar courses I took
> made it very clear that it was demonstrated that _no_
> program can be proved to have no flaws.
>
I have an exam coming tuesday on exactly this topic (program verification by means of logic). And yes, a program *can* be proven to have no flaws – taking into account the input of the program (pre-condition) and the desired (or claimed) output of the program (post-condition). However, this is very difficult and time consuming. For example to prove the correctness of a small 4-line program with one while-loop, you’ll need about 3 pages
If you add objects, threads etc to the mix, the process of proving becomes nearly impossible (and expensive!) and only pays of for applications such as control-systems for aviation, nuclear-plants and other risky areas.
Therefore, it strikes me as quite unlikely that the kernel of windows (or any other major OS for that matter) has been proven correct.
You say Linux crashes on you every few days? I haven’t had a Linux crash (as opposed to an application crash) ever, and I’ve been using Linux almost three years! Can you tell us what hardware you’re running Linux on so the rest of us know what not to buy?
microsoft should be tried for perjury. last year they said that releasing certain parts of the source code will threaten US national security. then all of a sudden, they release the code completely to China. so shouldn’t they be tried by the US courts since they are doing something that they stated should not be done, under oath?
I’m sure that China has had spies working at MS since the early 80s. In fact they probably know more than Bill Gates about the internal workings of MS.
Industrial espionage is de rigeur. The Russians had intimate knowledge of both the Manhattan and Tube Alloys programs (US and British nuclear programs). Go to a library and read any of the Janes military guidebooks and you will find the worlds most advanced warships and fighter aircraft described in precise details.
The Chinese almost certainl already have every line of MS source code this codesharing is simply a commercial formality.
I wouldn’t be suprised if the Chinese have video of Monica Lewinsky smoking Bill Clintons pink cigar.
<<<<Win9x had this problem (I had to re-install every 5-8 months to get some speed/stability back).
I use XP PRO for a year now and I have seen 0 degradetion in either speed or stability. XP has come a long way by being based on Win2k, so please don’t critisize their current products based on their 5 year old products.>>>>
I must give MS credit, XP Pro did cause me to switch to Linux. Mainly because no matter how many times I installed it or on *any* of my computers I still had problems such as Explorer crashing when opening a folder with 50 or so MP3’s, TaskBar/Start Menu freezing, CD-ROMs not unmounting, random reboot, disconnecting from the home network, but still saying it is connected are just some of the problems I had. Now, don’t get me wrong I know there is no OS without its problems, but when this kept happening, I just couldn’t get any work done. And I do admit it could be a driver issue, *but* I have all generic/standard/common hardware. So thinking it could be a driver problem I dragged out my old 800mhz P3 HP that was still running Windows 98SE, installed XP on there and moved my license to it. I had the *exact* same problems. What gets me is the hardware is completely different. And after I installed Mandrake 9.0 I didn’t have problems on either computer. Also my friend just bought this German computer (P4 2.0ghz) and he has the same start menu/task bar problem and a few others. Oh, I also don’t run *any* odd software either. I basicly ran MS Office 2002, Adobe Photoshop 6.01,and Mozilla 1.0. I am *not* trying to troll, just pointing out that XP is still far from perfect, but it is better than Win 9.x (Although the only problem I had with Windows 98SE was a blue screen now and then).
HP Box:
800mhz P3, 256mb SDRAM, 30gb hdd, Intel Intergrated Graphics & Sound, Intel Motherboard, HP 10/100 networking card, HP 4x CD-RW CD-rom,
New Box:
AMD 1900+, 768mb DDR, 80gg & 30gb HDD, Geforce2 64mb DDR Ti, Sound Blaster Live 5.1, ABit motherboard, 16x DVD-ROM, 32x CD-ROM.
PS: Yes, my friend has the latest SP installed but same problems and I did keep my system patched until I switched to Mandrake 9.0.
I still had problems such as Explorer crashing when opening a folder with 50 or so MP3’s
This kind of struck me as odd. I’m not saying I don’t believe this is happening to you, but on my 1.2ghz Athlon, I just opened an Explorer window with 1,399 MP3s in it and it came up instantly – no problems at all, so I would have to guess that there is something else wrong not directly related to XP?
Of course, I do a certain amount of tweaking when I install XP, so perhaps that’s why it runs so well. One of the first things I do is go to My Computer, click on the View menu and select List view
Then click on Tools|Folder Options and set the following:
GENERAL TAB
Use Windows class folders (turn off the web folder crap)
Then I click on the VIEW TAB and click on ‘Apply To All Folders.’
That way, all folders hould come up in Win95 ‘classic’ view, which is a helluva lot faster than the default.
After that, I will usuall …
– Diable themes
– Diable system restore (I don’t need it)
– Turn off all of the fading menus and the extra effects I don’t need
– Disable native support for zip folders (for speed, plus I like WinRAR anyway.)
After doing those and a few other things that don’t immediately come to mind, my XP runs smoother than a baby’s ass
One last thing to note – when you install drivers on XP, ALWAYS make sure they were made specifically for XP, lest you enjoy staring at blue screens a lot.
>>>>microsoft should be tried for perjury. last year they said that releasing certain parts of the source code will threaten US national security. then all of a sudden, they release the code completely to China. so shouldn’t they be tried by the US courts since they are doing something that they stated should not be done, under oath?
Microsoft stated that disclosing source code TO COMPETITORS has national security concerns. The chinese government is NOT a competitor.
> Please no FUD
After you are done glad-handing Microsoft, please learn the meaning of “FUD” before using the term. FUD is a marketing tactic, not criticism, complaints or discussion of experiences.
> If your computer crashes, it is a driver problem
On your Windows system with perfect drivers, take a data CD-R, scratch the top of it heavily and insert it into the drive. Or, ping the machine with numerous packets of large/strange sizes for similar results. Okay, so where’s the driver problem?
> The Windows Kernel has been certified by Microsoft Research. = “Firestone Research certifies it’s tires.”
Does no one remember the “65,000 known bugs” when XP shipped?
> -Remote Desktop
This is just the bundling of Netmeeting into the “Operating System”, not actually something new.
> Next thing you know, MS will be offering them Windows for Free.
However, the Chinese don’t really need Windows for free, you can buy it for the equivalent of US$5.00 on every fifth street corner. : )
> they must have some idea of how to design an OS.
One would think so, if ignoring the fact that Microsoft has never designed an operating system from scratch.
> After that, I will usuall …
So, more or less turn it into Win2K? : )
> so please don’t critisize their current products based on their 5 year old products
Umm, but their current produst are based on their 5 year old products.
> Microsoft stated that disclosing source code TO COMPETITORS has national security concerns.
I am curious, what Microsoft competitor do YOU believe would be a threat to U.S. national security?
The absolutely stupidest thing I’ve seen in XP is it’s inabilty to run programs using compatibility mode, if the proggie is on a mapped network drive. WTF is up with that?
> Integrity
Microsoft has displayed an incredible amount of honesty in some of it’s advertising. “Designed for 99.999% reliabilty.” or “Designed for C3 level security.” no claim is made that the product actually delivers, only that it was designed with something in mind. Kind of like Volvo saying the car is designed for your safety, doesn’t mean you are safe. Unfortunately people who are Managers don’t see the difference between something that is implied vs. promised. “One degree of separation.” I love that one, the further you go, the farther apart you are.
Lastly, somewhat off-topic, I can tell you about a 700Mhz eMac that (when it’s not having a Raster Shift problem) that absolutely runs circles around an HP 1.3Ghz OEM XP box that has all the slow down junk turned off. Both systems are equal victims of child abuse and run equivalent programs (i.e. Office for OS X and Office XP). The XP box takes several minutes to boot and has since it was just out of the package.
> I don’t understand why people have this fetish about keeping their systems up and running for years at a time.
Some System Administrators don’t like;
1) Getting phone calls in the middle of the night or on days off.
2) Having to leave the office, or worse, get out of bed perhaps leaving a MUCH more interesting situation, to travel to a distant WAN location to reboot a server because no one at there can tell the difference between a file server and a PBX.
3) Being interupted from whatever passtime they prefer to actually working. (i.e. playing Doom or making sure the entire bandwidth of the T1 is ALWAYS fully utilized)
If you re-read my original comment, notice I said DESKTOP system, not server.
>>>>Microsoft has displayed an incredible amount of honesty in some of it’s advertising. “Designed for 99.999% reliabilty.” or “Designed for C3 level security.” no claim is made that the product actually delivers, only that it was designed with something in mind.
They don’t just claim out of thin air to be designed for C3 level security —- they are CERTIFIED by the National Computer Security Center (which is founded by the US Department of Defence and the NSA) for C2 level security.
Microsoft certified their part. But in order to actually have a C2 system — YOU have to certify your stuff as well.
>>>>Kind of like Volvo saying the car is designed for your safety, doesn’t mean you are safe. Unfortunately people who are Managers don’t see the difference between something that is implied vs. promised. “One degree of separation.” I love that one, the further you go, the farther apart you are.
YOU are the one who DON’T see the difference. The NCSC certification is for a very limited set of configurations.
Microsoft is the current leader when it comes to hypocrisy, so it is no wonder people doubt Microsoft’s claim to C2 security or any of their other claims.
What has Microsoft been trying to do for the past year? Something called “Trustworthy Computing”, right? Well, what does this consist of?
We find Microsoft’s view of “Trustworthy” computing is not to make the machine more reliable or robust. It is weaving in spyware/1984ware into every facet of the OS and all of Microsoft’s applications.
Nothing that Microsoft has publically show will make future versions of Windows easier to use, cheaper to maintain, more fun to use, etc. Everything is more and more bundling, integration, and big brother features.
There is no reason a modern desktop computer should have an OS that crashes. That’s just sloppy development. Microsoft with all their billions should be able to ship an OS that has a bug count of ZERO, not 65,000+
If Microsoft were to do one thing good for humanity, it would be shipping an OS free of known bugs. Forget all the other stuff, give humanity a platform to do work that will last a few years and give no problems. The Japanese did quite well with this philosophy and cars.
Anything else and it is just more Microsoft hyporcrisy. Their marketing department will tell you all these new things are for the customer, but really they are for Microsoft. DRM is a 100% platform lock-in mechanism that is 100% approved by the US DOJ. Only the naive wonder why.
–ms
From one dictator to another,I bet they had a lot of mind control techniques to talk about LOL. A company that doesn’t put up with any competitoin and a country that doesn’t put up with any dissenting points of view,Why it’s a marriage made in heaven!And what better OS to cram down the throats of the Chinese people than Windows with all it’s hidden files and spyware to keep track of a user’s every move and thought and action,all unbeknownst to them,but acessable to the Chinese gov’t now that Billy-boy has clued them in! LOL Does any one else see the irony in this?
http://www.fuckmicrosoft.com/content/ms-hidden-files.shtml
I also can crash BeOS (and do so) on a daily basis But in doing so I am usually attempting to do things I wouldn’t even dream of attempting to do on a Windows system like mutitasking tons of media files with 2 browsers and beshare and downloads,and maybe even a game running at the same time and constantly playing with alpha grade software.and I’m doing this on an old,antiquated single
400 Celeron box with 360MB RAM! This type of abuse will cause WinXP to lock right up in it’s tracks on 3 times the system(been there and done it)And I doubt WinXP would even run on this box anyways and if it did I could probably make and drink a pot of coffee before it loaded a single file,it would be like running Win98 on a 486
So all in all it just depends on what you want to do with your system, I don’t have the connectivity to run a server here so I couldn’t care the less about the stability issues in Net_server or BONE or PoorMan or whatever,I just do light net surfing and file sharing here and it works well for that,I have enough games(thanks in part to you)to keep me occupied,and for the main use for this machine(sound creation and editing)BeOS is still doing a better job than anything else I have found to replace it,and so far it has kept me from shelling out my hard earned bucks on a bigger more powerful system!(I do have an old Win98(333 AMD K6-2) box and an old Mac(PPC7300/200) to do my graphics work,both of these also have BeOS partitions,the 333 also has QNX and GEOS on it at the present time,I have also had Mandrake and freeBSD on it in the past but I hated the complexity of them(Lycoris maybe is next).
There’s my coffee can full of gas for the flame wars LOL
>They don’t just claim out of thin air to be designed for C3 level security —- they are CERTIFIED by the National Computer Security Center (which is founded by the US Department of Defence and the NSA) for C2 level security.
When they introduced NT 4 a marketing pitch was “Designed for C2(or was it C3, can’t remember) security.” They had no certified product at the time.
>If you re-read my original comment, notice I said DESKTOP system, not server.
Oops, my bad, sorry.
This time MS is acting smart. As soon as China announced that it runs linux, MS quickly went to China and gave the gov Windows’ source code. I bet MS is having spys everywhere
>>>>When they introduced NT 4 a marketing pitch was “Designed for C2(or was it C3, can’t remember) security.” They had no certified product at the time.
That’s because the certification process can take YEARS (especially for NCSC, FAA and nuclear certifications). Nothing wrong with that. Go and take a look at everybody else. “QNX is designed from the ground up to the latest POSIX realtime specifications.” Well, that’s because QNX hasn’t obtained their certification yet.
>>>>If Microsoft were to do one thing good for humanity, it would be shipping an OS free of known bugs. Forget all the other stuff, give humanity a platform to do work that will last a few years and give no problems. The Japanese did quite well with this philosophy and cars.
Quote:
“The $146 million recall is another serious setback for the Japanese automaker (Mitsubishi), which acknowledged last summer it had been systematically hiding driver complaints for more than 20 years.”
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2001-02-15-mitsubishi-recall.ht…
Toyota, Nissan, and Honda upped the quality immensely vs. American cars. Mitsuibishi also was higher quality, but not in the same league as Toyota, Nissan, and Honda.
Notice how the Japanese luxury brands have dominated all the quality surveys?
It’s amazing how Microsoft-lovers fight against fixing bugs.
>>>>Toyota, Nissan, and Honda upped the quality immensely vs. American cars. Mitsuibishi also was higher quality, but not in the same league as Toyota, Nissan, and Honda.
>>>>Notice how the Japanese luxury brands have dominated all the quality surveys?
So has GM’s Saturn winning J.D. Powers quality surveys.
Saturn was created years after the Japanese had gobbled up extensive market share.
And Saturn was created to be a clean break from the typical US car dealership / car experience.
Saturn did well for a while but seems they have lost their way recently.
All things considered, I think even looking at Saturn would be a positive influence on the bug-ridden Windows codebase and hideous Windows customer experience.