Home > Linux > As Good as It Gets for Linux As Good as It Gets for Linux Eugenia Loli 2003-04-02 Linux 72 Comments ‘To cross the chasm, an OS needs a big marketing machine behind it. Linux doesn’t have one. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” stuff only goes so far.’ Read the editorial by V. Ryan at OSOpinion. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 72 Comments 2003-04-02 4:18 am This article was altogether ridiculous. His arguments are just thrown out there without anything to back them up, and some of them are just plain wrong. To cross the chasm, an OS needs a big marketing machine behind it. Linux doesn’t have one. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” stuff only goes so far. Since when are IBM, HP, and the Chinese government not big names? IBM is sees linux as the future and I am willing to agree with them on this one. Linux will never be a mainstream desktop OS. At best, it will be a niche OS for the desktop. There just isn’t enough capital out there for independent software vendors that might consider developing desktop applications based on Linux. He ignores the vast amounts of desktop software already available for linux. He also ignores the fact that Bioware has already pretty much said they plan to support linux in the future. Id always has. UT2003 also runs under linux. No linux doesn’t get many games, but it is increasing in numbers all of the time. It sure _feels_ like the start of a trend to me. The economic downturn won’t last forever. A big part of Linux’ appeal is that it is perceived as a cheaper OS to buy and run. This statement is just ignorant. The first “linux eplosion” happened during the .com boom. Linux was doing well before the economy started falling apart and was actually hurt by it. However, it still grows. There is still wider support every day. 2003-04-02 4:47 am I am puzzled. Is this is an April Fools joke or not? 2003-04-02 4:47 am I stronly agree with Dwilson above. I don’t know anything about the author, but the fact that he puts no credentials on the editorial further weakens his point. I would feel safe in saying that he doesn’t work directly in the field of systems administration. I am an administrator, and own a company that rolls out entire infrastructures using Free Software – namely, GNU/Linux. While there is a recession in the American economy, I have no lack of work. In fact, my hands are so full with business I have to turn down clients. I’d like to go into a detailed rant here, but have to run I will try to post legitimate statistics later. Let me say this, however; within the small business realm, Linux is viewed as something of a holy grail. We often implement entire infrastructures for 50-100 people installations for under 15,000USD in hardware costs. That cannot be beaten. The adoption and widescale backing by IBM, HP, etc will only push Linux further into the ‘big business realm.’ Maintaining uptimes in excess of 500 days (100.000000000%, no ‘5 nines here’) is run of the mill for myself; executives will not be able to resist the temptation and power of Linux for long. 2003-04-02 4:55 am I completely agree. Here is another angle, businesses are always looking to cut costs, both in the boom times and downturn. The ultimate aim for a business is to minimise costs and maximise profit margins and if that means moving to Linux or what ever, a business who has their eye on the almighty dollar will move. IT isn’t a core part of a business, the core part is developing and producing products so there for the first things to receive cut backs are the non-core business areas and IT is normally the first to be sliced back. Also, I think share holders need to start holding managers to make stupid decisions accountable for their actions. For example, if I had shares in a company and they spent 30million on Microsoft software when a cheaper alternative was offered I would be majorly pissed off, not only because of the wasted money but the result is a lower dividend. It is about time shareholders both large and small start cracking the whip and demanding a bit of slicing and dicing on the expenses side. This slicing and dicing should be always ongoing, there should always be a continual efficiency improvements whether during boom time or downturn. 2003-04-02 4:57 am This sounds like a person who is going by hear-say and just recently heard about Linux. This is evident in the part where the author talks about how fractured “Linux” is. I always thought that “Linux” itself represented the kernel, not the distribution. Had the author said “distribution,” there would have been some credibilty, but even then it’s not enough to justify his argument about Linux on that aspect. Well, I guess it should be expected since this is a forum for opinions, but I agree with most of those who have posted here: This is a baseless argument. 2003-04-02 5:02 am on the topic of fragmentation, hasn’t Microsoft done that also with it’s myriad of Windows versions?? From 95, to 98, to 2000, to XP, many things have changed in dramatic ways, starting with location to configuration. I go crazy trying to figure out where everything is with each Windows release. Not to mention the confusion among consumers (even those I know) between Windows Millenuim and Windows 2000. 2003-04-02 5:34 am ” I completely agree. Here is another angle, businesses are always looking to cut costs, both in the boom times and downturn. The ultimate aim for a business is to minimise costs and maximise profit margins and if that means moving to Linux or what ever, a business who has their eye on the almighty dollar will move. ” Partially right. When the times were good, companies were a bit freer with the money, and the consequences of a mistake weren’t quite so much of an impact (a financial cushion, if you will). But now the true belt tightening is on, and there’s no room any longer to indulge wasteful ways, were one wrong turn could mean corporate death. The interesting effect to watch however is when the economy turns around, and the lean companies that used OSS solutions have the breathing room to let loose. That would be most telling. 2003-04-02 5:40 am Nope, not nearly to the same extent. Microsoft doesn’t release binary incompatible versions of Windows every six months (which is good, and necessary since most Windows applications don’t have the source available). I can still run Windows 95 era apps on Windows XP, I doubt you could do so with the same percentage of success with Linux apps compiled in 1995/96. You also mentioned “going crazy trying to figure out where things are.” Try installing five different distributions of Linux, and trying to edit the menu of the default DE after installation. I bet you will have quite a similiar (most likely worse) experience then with Windows. 2003-04-02 5:48 am Well, I feel that Linux on the desktop has gotten to a point where I can ALMOST recommend it to and set it up for a few of my friends. However, for each one of them, there is at least one gaping hole in a certain genre of applications that they want to use which Linux doesn’t do yet. I don’t know if they could get by with Wine – I haven’t experimented enough with Wine to know for sure yet. As for hardware detection, I find that it goes really smoothly. I suppose it might get a little hairy if the kernel doesn’t know about your hardware, but I haven’t ran into that problem yet. However, I feel that if DRM really takes off and you see a lot of ‘policeware’-enabled hardware, if that hardware doesn’t ‘play nice’ with Linux, this could be a real problem. 2003-04-02 5:49 am I can still run Windows 95 era apps on Windows XP, I doubt you could do so with the same percentage of success with Linux apps compiled in 1995/96 Funny…I’ve tried installing some games from that era on my Windows 2000 and XP machines…no luck running them. I’ve even tried some DOS games (which used to work on 9x and NT 4) and nothing. Even with the Compatibility Layer set, it woudn’t work. Sure sounds like fragmentation to me! 2003-04-02 5:54 am when was the last time a bussiness every tried deploying 5 diffrent versions of linux? most companies when they make a new deplyment say on the desktop, keep it all the same, and in the server room, well if you are a windows admin, I guess you would have problems in Linux as most administration takes place on the comand line which is pretty much the same no matter what Linux you are using. 2003-04-02 5:58 am However, I feel that if DRM really takes off and you see a lot of ‘policeware’-enabled hardware, if that hardware doesn’t ‘play nice’ with Linux, this could be a real problem. As far as the DRM stuff goes, I don’t think it will ever come to a point where DRM would be used against Linux. Too many companies such as Intel, IBM, AMD, and many others have invested a lot in helping Linux get to where it is today. If they were to do an about-face, it would hurt their credibility with consumers and business partners. The cat is out of the bag, and I honestly don’t think there is a way of putting it back in, even if you ARE Microsoft. Regardless, someone would be able to create a hack to bypass this, similar to what has been done to Apple’s G3 towers to bypass the upgrade-lockout implemented by one of Apple’s Firmware Updates. So it’s not really worth it. 2003-04-02 6:03 am I can understand your concern with linux on the desktop, but that isn’t what this article is about. This article states (more or less) that linux is as “big” as it will get. We’ve peaked on market share both in the desktop and server world. Linux is in its niche and that is where it will stay. I categorically disagree with any statement of that sort about linux OR windows. Especially without appropriate evidence to back up such a claim. While linux may not be a great desktop option for everyone, that doesn’t mean it won’t ever be. 2003-04-02 6:03 am Gentoo is king. Long live “emerge -u system” and all of her glory. Amen. 2003-04-02 7:02 am It’s going to have to stink less from a user standpoint. If you want to see the future of Unix on the desktop, get a mac. When Linux’s user experience is as seamless as OS X, then and only then will it be desktop worthy. And yes, I’m well aware Macs don’t have the CPU horsepower of equivilant PCs. You have to pick what’s important to you, and having a consistant, esthetically pleasing, easy to use desktop trumps the extra gigahertz in my book. 2003-04-02 7:07 am Remember that frawd “Switcher” spoof that Microsoft did a while back, with a person who supposedly switched from the Mac to Windows (and actually had a positive experience… already fishy). It would make perfect sense for me if Microsoft started planting people around to write stories like these, warning people away from Linux. How’s that for paranoid? 2003-04-02 7:19 am Why Gnu/Linux is better than OSX….imho. (and yes i own an MAc machine (dual G4 933mhz) running OSX) Apple OSX is closed software..some people use Gnu/Linux, *BSD and or other open/free software because they want freedom and/or want to look at the source, just like apple did with the khtml engine (safari). Gnu/Linux runs on a dozen of arcs. (x86, arm, risc, ppc etc. OSX only runs on Mac. Gnu/Linux is so much faster than OSX on my single P4.( i use Gentoo, Xandros, Lindows and RedHAT (redhat on server)). Gnu/Linux has far more software than OSX will ever get, not all quality programs i addmit but same goes for OSX. I hope the Darwin project will get more attention in the future but for now am i betting Gnu/Linux will become a mainstream desktop OS, might take a couple of years..but he it took us 5 bilion years to get a foot on land. We have the time and so has Gnu/Linux. 2003-04-02 7:27 am Are independent Linux vendors really going to give the same quality support as an IBM? >>>>>>>> No, but IBM itself supports Linux on its machines. Corporations don’t call Microsoft for help when something goes wrong. They look up the number on their support contract and call the vendor that sold them the machine. In situations where the client is too small to have a big support contract, the game shifts dramatically: for these people, RedHat support is most likely going to be a whole lot nicer and more knowledgable than the rather poor support Microsoft gives its “unwashed masses” users. Moreover, Linux is a fractured OS — everyone has their own customized piece of this software. How are enterprises going to deal with what may be multiple distributions of Linux in their enterprise? >>>>>>>> They’ll deal with it the same way they deal with all the different versions of Windows in the enterprise. Standardize on a single software configuration throughout the network. At our school, we have thousands of machines all running nearly identical installations of Windows 2000. You think our IT department is going to deal with thousands of machines running everything from Win95 to WinXP, with all the service packs in between? There is a great deal more to managability of multiple versions than binary compatibility, and in these areas, even Windows is lacking. Would you want to go up against Microsoft’s (Nasdaq: MSFT) Office suite? >>>>> Well shucks. If we’re that scared of Microsoft, we might as well shut down every software company and just let Microsoft make products. Apple has the balls to take on Microsoft (Safari vs IE, OS X vs Windows, etc) so why not IBM or HP? 2003-04-02 7:29 am Debman: About the same time they deployed Win 95, 98, NT4 and XP simultaneously. Never. We were comparing fragmentation, and I was specifically mentioning binary compatibility and one small specific example regarding user interface. Claudio: You didn’t say how those ancient Linux binaries. I specifically said that more Windows 95 apps would work than Linux ones would. Granted, you do have the advantage of being able to recompile them if the source is available – but its not always. That’s my point. Better binary compatibility due to static compilation. 2003-04-02 7:47 am Would you want to go up against Microsoft’s (Nasdaq: MSFT) Office suite? Open Office did… they’re doing a fine job of it too. I’ve got everyone who I know that runs windows using Open Office over Microsoft Word (seriously) 2003-04-02 7:51 am “I don’t see the incentive for application developers. Would you want to go up against Microsoft’s (Nasdaq: MSFT) Office suite?” ———————– Let’s see: OpenOffice, Koffice, StarOffice, Abiword. This article has got to be an April fool’s joke. 2003-04-02 7:54 am It’s going to have to stink less from a user standpoint. If you want to see the future of Unix on the desktop, get a mac. When Linux’s user experience is as seamless as OS X, then and only then will it be desktop worthy. First of all, the artical isn’t about desktop linux. That is only one part of the equation. However, assuming that desktop acceptance is the important part of this equation… The end user experience doesn’t suck for everyone. You may not like it, but you know what? I don’t really give a damn, and I don’t think anyone else does either. This isn’t to say your opinion doesn’t count, but everyone gets to choose what they use. You like OSX, and that is great; however, there are more and more people every day who prefer linux ON THEIR DESKTOPS. To say that it isn’t a reasonable desktop OS because _you_ specifically have problems with it is ludicrous. You have to pick what’s important to you, and having a consistant, esthetically[sic] pleasing, easy to use desktop trumps the extra gigahertz in my book. That is exactly what I’m talking about. To me, affordable, powerful software, that I can compile on my own machine is more important than an all around consistent display. Now, that doesn’t mean there is no place for consistency, but I deal with inconsistency in windows (PowerDirector Pro, Creative Recorder, Trillian) and it never really bothers me. In fact, I like the way trillian looks (with the right skin) much more than your normal windows programs. Inconsistency will crop up anywhere (even in OSX) so making it my only goal would be futile. I’ll stick with the Open Source software I love. Hopefully, others will join me. 2003-04-02 7:57 am Linux needs a standard. Without that any marketing will be as fragmented and useless to the average user as Linux is. 2003-04-02 8:13 am On the contrary, the day Linux gets a “standard” is the day it will start to fade into nothing. Fragmentation == competition, something that is very healthy in almost every buisniess… 2003-04-02 8:29 am First: Microsoft has a basic monopoly. You know it and I know it. They have windows and they have office. (Yes some people use macs some use Linux (I am right now) but for the majority they use MS. Where can they get continued growth? The shareholders want to see earnings go up and up. MS only makes money on those two products, and with a monopoly they can only do one thing: Tighter lisence restrictions and increased prices for their products. And in fact that is what they are going to do. So eventually there will be a breaking point (like we have seen in servers) where businesses wont take it anymore. Second: Ask any IT Admin what the single most trouble point on any computer is and they will tell you USERS. They break things, they install things, they want things. Of course we can lock up windows to try and minimixe this, but the best way would be for everyone to work on a DUMB terminal and have the files stored somewhere else, and have it preconfigured for the tasks they need to do most. Third: The dumb terminal is what Xwindows on Linux does real well. All administration is done on one machine only. Time and money is saved and things work smoothly. On a final thought. I use a Linux desktop on my laptop, work computer, and at home. My wife, whos experience comes from Mac then Windows, now uses Linux and PREFERS it. She (and I agree) thinks linux LOOKS BETTER, is just as easy to use and has no need for MS. She has created business cards using Open Office, writes all her documents in Open Office, browses using Mozilla (and really likes the no-pop ups) uses evolution as an email client, and likes it better then outlook. Yes linux is a little more difficult to set up (desktop) but once it is it works great and users find themselves using it without problem. One more note: I am a Linux Noobie. I made a server last year that now hosts 6 websites, handles 20 email accounts and runs off a dsl line. I didnt know what I was doing, but linux people generally want to help. here are some interesting links: http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/08/10/1441239&mode=threa… http://lwn.net/Articles/18240/ http://www.vnunet.com/News/1131643 2003-04-02 9:09 am Gnu/Linux has far more software than OSX will ever get, not all quality programs i addmit but same goes for OSX Huh ? Sorry to burst your bubble, but OS X can run 99% of Linux apps (which are actually UNIX apps) and it can also run a lot of commercial software Linux can only dream about (Photoshop, DVD euthoring software, InDesign, many games, etc). You don’t have a Mac and don’t run MacOS X. 2003-04-02 9:27 am Jago, I do own a Mac and i do run MacOSX..i do not care what you think. >99% of Linux apps I tried at least 20 programs including OpenOffice, Mozilla, Quake II, Quanta, Evolution etc. none of them worked.Even bash scripts give problems. >Linux can only dream about (Photoshop, DVD euthoring >software, InDesign, many games, etc). Right like Maya, Softimage, PageStream, Houdini, Film Gimp, Renderman..do not forget the film industry is heavily using Linux. 2003-04-02 9:49 am i you are a lazy man for your self go on give it to microsoft if not come aboard and learn more than drag and drop enough said 2003-04-02 11:32 am To me its the same thing, both are in some way derived from UNIX and i couldn’t give a crap which one i use as long as i don’t use windows, both are far better. I have a mac but i would love to install an up to date PPC version of SuSE, i’d love to dual boot. I love both oses, OSX and SuSE or any other distribution as long as it is good as SuSE. But the differences between the 2 are quite big and it does effect how i use them, but also how you guys view them. I use OSX for eveything while at college if only because i don’t have to do anything to get me setup. Installing software on my iBook is piss easy and as yet i havn’t been able to install anything on linux, but i will admit this is down to me somewhat. So far on OSX i’ve installed ICQ, Mplayer, VLC, Flash MX, Divx Validator and a few others but it all works and thats important as well. Its got what i want and i am happy. I just want this much simplicity going into linux as well (plus Flash MX). But i’m not going to put down linux, its still got an attraction to me and i will use it if only because i can tinker with it and learn something other than OSX. To the guys comparing OSX to Linux, please don’t, treat them as equal and competant for each person who has a different need to the next person, as long as people are not using windows then thats a good thing, both are derivatives of UNIX so don’t be prejudice. At least Apple is contributing to open source and not trying to ruin it like MS is. 2003-04-02 11:35 am The Mac experience while good is not without faults, I personally dont like OS X or Aqua, as another reader pointed out Bash Scripts dont ever run right. With OS X yes you can compile and run some Linux apps, but I always have problems going that route. You have some impressive apps for OS X but more and more people are using linux in the enterprise on the desktops and in the film industry, in fact I do believe Pixar, Steve Jobs own company uses Linux on the Artists desktops and on the renderfarm. I can only say this from my standpoint, the orders for our software are going great for Linux in fact Linux sales are starting to surpass Windows sales and our Mac OS X sales are very low, almost non-existant. In fact I was telling some people in this forum the other day at our last staff meeting, my company has stated that we may be dropping Mac support because the money we spend on developing a Mac version of our software is not being made up for in sales. If Apple goes 64 bit, we will drop it because yes while we will develop and maintain a 64 and 32 bit version for Windows and Linux, we know that we will get that money back and sales will be profitable. But business wise it makes no sense to develop and maintain two versions of software that is very non profitable. As for the Linux user experience, I find it to be good, I got my mother running Yellowdog Linux on her Mac and she has completely dropped Mac OS 9 for everything, she has a B&W G3 and Mac OS X ran sloooooow on that machine. Now Im going to make a statement on this article, I found what this author said to be without merit. As I stated Linux sales are up Windows sales are down and I know that we arent the only company that is seeing this trend. IBM, HP and Sun do a geat job of pushing Linux and no I do not think it is totally because of the economy, it also has to do with stability and availability, UNIX servers are very expensive and yes Microsofts enterprise offerings are laughable at best, I remember talking to a Microsoft rep who was so excited that with Windows Server 2003 Microsoft has seen almost a year of uptime. I thought that was funny. All this article and others like it do is generate alot of FUD. To the author of this article I have one thing to say, dude its supposed to be, puff puff pass 2003-04-02 1:24 pm Man never criticize linux, otherwise you will be called: Lazy Stupid Microsoft drone, employee, etc Linux users will never take criticism even when it is true. If there is one thing I have learned is that most computer users, (not sysadmins, not network admins) is that the following: They do not care about the difference between open/closed source. Sorry computing is task but a political statement against Microsoft They do not care about OSes, they care about Applications. I rarely get someone asking what version of Windows/Linux I am running, I do get people asking if I can open a specific file type such as a document. They rather have simple easy over flexibility. They want to get tasks done. They do not want to learn to recompile to run software. That’s the rest of the world has installers They do not write scripts or know perl, python or even shell scripting. Sorry. They don’t care about computing in general, they care about their tasks and the computer is just a tool to accomplish their task. These are not artists who need to learn every aspect of a brush or colors. They just want to get something done. When linux makes that difficult they move to something easier. 2003-04-02 2:49 pm So what OS, pray tell, do you use??? 😉 Criticisms don’t amount to much if it’s all FUD. I’m sure Windows power users would react in the same way (as I’ve seen already in this thread) if Windows was criticized on baseless information. I agree that most users don’t care much about the OS, so long as it’s intuitive and can open the files that they want. Who’s to say that Windows solves this??? I get many calls from people that are having problems with Windows. Same with the Mac, X and Classic. Sure, not everyone is familiar with Mozilla, but those same users you speak of have come to my house and used my laptop running Mandrake Linux 9.1 (please let’s not start another flamefest about this) with Gnome 2.2 to browse the Internet on Mozilla. And they’ve never used or probably know nothing about Linux! Recompile??? Sure there are times when that has to be done…but is your everyday user going to install the apps that require this??? Everyday users can also muck up installs on Windows and Mac just as much as they can on Linux. OpenOffice and StarOffice, as well as other end-user apps, have an installer that runs on top of a GUI, so the recompile argument is moot. And most desktop-oriented distributions have some sort of graphical package management so installs aren’t as difficult. With a bit of curiosity and openness, anyone can learn to use any operating system properly and make their own choice. Sure they just want to get their tasks done, but that doesn’t mean they have to do it only on Windows. 2003-04-02 2:53 pm Sorry about the typo on your name, Mr. Pettit. 2003-04-02 3:05 pm Back at that time, Linux used an old binary format called a.out (now deprecated by ELF). It is possible to load a module to support those binaries (or even recompile the kernel with this feature enabled, if you wish). That makes possible one to run such old softwares. The old Doom II release required such thing to run properly. In some rare cases, software compiled with different versions of glibc or libc5 and different versions of gcc really did weird things, but that you can expect from old Win95 and DOS softwares running on top of Windows XP as well. Regards, DeadFish Man 2003-04-02 3:15 pm binary incompatible DLLs which in windows books is a BAD thing… Actually they also effectivly killed VB6 with the release of .NET… Talk about compatibilities… at least with GNU software, you are sure to have LANGUAGE compatibility… (and btw… they also broke all they office stuff when they TRANSLATE the vba… it is required to be MS to translate a programming language to the localized terms!). ALAS… anywhere you look for, there is problems ahead… and normally you shine by solving them FAST… Obniox Coward 2003-04-02 3:16 pm There are packages and even installers for most of the major applications involved with Linux, and people such as myself provide Binaries for some of the smaller apps. There is not much call for recompiling nowadays, what you are refering to is the linux of old. Just like Mac OS X, when they first started releasing UNIX software for the Mac you had to recompile. ” Man never criticize linux, otherwise you will be called: Lazy Stupid Microsoft drone, employee, etc ” I have never seen on this or any other forums Linux users that say these things in regards to non-linux users. If they have than whats so different then if I criticize Mac OS X, I get called stupid, dumb, Im not a real computer user and that I have a Microsoft state of mind oh and my favorite, I dont know what Im talking about. Yet I have a college degree in computer science I do mac software development, on my free time I work with the GNU-Darwin group, yet I know nothing about the Mac. IMHO I think I probably know more about the inner workings of the Mac than Steve Jobs does. ” Linux users will never take criticism even when it is true. ” Thats not true. I have never said Linux is perfect, but what I notice is that too many Mac users will not admit Mac OS X has problems and they wont admit Mac OS X is not perfect. ” They do not care about the difference between open/closed source. Sorry computing is task but a political statement against Microsoft They do not care about OSes, they care about Applications. I rarely get someone asking what version of Windows/Linux I am running, I do get people asking if I can open a specific file type such as a document. They rather have simple easy over flexibility. They want to get tasks done. They do not want to learn to recompile to run software. That’s the rest of the world has installers They do not write scripts or know perl, python or even shell scripting. Sorry. They don’t care about computing in general, they care about their tasks and the computer is just a tool to accomplish their task. These are not artists who need to learn every aspect of a brush or colors. They just want to get something done. When linux makes that difficult they move to something easier. ” A stated in this particular statement you are talking about Linux of old. Linux nowadays has become very easy and many of these companies are focusing on ease of use and has made lots of headway in that regards. To me SuSE and Xandros are the leaders in ease of use. Some say Lindows, but excuse the gross analogy here, to me on the few times I have tried the Lindows OS, it just seems they barf something up give it pretty little icons, beat their chest and say ” we are better than everybody ” Yes Lindows has done a good job on marketing and getting it on systems. But I know several people besides me who were disappointed with Lindows. But to give an example of ease-of-use. As I stated in my previous post I got my mother on Yellowdog Linux. The other day I downloaded the ISO’s for YDL 3, burned them and took them over to her house. On mondays I always have dinner with my mom, we decided to go chinese so I ordered takeout and had to go pick it up. I told her after dinner I would update the system for her. I went out to the restaurant to pick up the dinner. Its a 45 minute drive round trip. By the time I got back she already had it installed and set up user accounts, and this is a woman who never set up Linux before, all she has ever done was watch me do it to me thats phenominal. Linux will only get easier it will not get harder. And I think that for something that started out as a hobbyist OS with no intention of getting huge Linux is doing much better than even Linus himself even thought imaginable, if you could go back in time to 1993 when I first heard about Linux and you told me that Linux would be at the point it is today, I would have laughed my butt off and called a psychiatric hospital for you. Articles like this are baseless and they are insulting. I could see this article having merit if Linux was at a stand still with no further advancements, you give no credit to the developers or the efforts of the developers. This article was something I would have expected to see back in the days of Linux’s infancy, but today at this point and time its baseless garbage and obviously from somebody who is scared and who probably has never even bothered to try to learn Linux. 2003-04-02 3:22 pm Because there isn’t Mac OS X for intel/amd platform! Bof 2003-04-02 3:26 pm While I agree, here is the problem. A lot of critism is not all FUD. But don’t say that to a zealot (Windows, Mac or Linux) I have seen thread after thread on OS news where someone makes decent valid arguments against OS (fill in your OS here) and gets flamed back. What really gets my gall is that there are people who like linux, state that there are things that need to be done and get lamblasted. Look at your response that you use Mandrake and of cource have to ask to not have a flamefest started by the non-mandrake loving crowd. Problem is is that Linux is treated more like a political movement then a technology. Thus there is to much emotion. 2003-04-02 3:27 pm “Back at that time, Linux used an old binary format called a.out (now deprecated by ELF). It is possible to load a module to support those binaries (or even recompile the kernel with this feature enabled, if you wish). That makes possible one to run such old softwares.” Uh, I thought ELF had been deprecated by a.out? But I also disagree with the basic premise that Windows is somehow “almost totally backwards compatible”. I’ve had the exact opposite experience – DirectX 5 programs not working at all with DirectX 8, DOS programs not working under Win98, etc. Contrast this with the fact that _all_ of my Loki games still work, and those were designed back in the days of XF86 3.3.6. I was a hard-core Windows user, and frankly, if Linux had been so bad, I would have abandoned it by now. I haven’t, which I suppose tells you something about me. -Erwos 2003-04-02 3:44 pm Uh, I thought ELF had been deprecated by a.out? Nah, a.out was replaced by ELF. I remember my first copy of Slackware proudly announced support for both formats on the cd label. 2003-04-02 4:23 pm You cannot tell a linux user what is wrong with their os. To them the problem is not the OS, the problem is you. By their definition: Linux is not hard, you are stupid or lazy or pick a smart remark And thats why Linux will stay a niche and broken Windows will stay installed on 90% of the machines in the US. 2003-04-02 4:27 pm “I do own a Mac and i do run MacOSX..i do not care what you think. >99% of Linux apps I tried at least 20 programs including OpenOffice, Mozilla, Quake II, Quanta, Evolution etc. none of them worked.Even bash scripts give problems.” You may want to think about your bash script problems – OS X defaults to tsh, not bash. Remember its based off of BSDs. Mozilla, OpenOffice, Evolution all work in OS X. You just need the libraries they link to; same as when you try to use the linux version on FreeBSD. If you don’t like running them in aqua, your more than welcome use the X11 beta, they work there too. How much effort did you actually put in to trying make these work? I get the feeling its on par with people saying xmms in RH is broken because it doesn’t have an mp3 plugin installed by default. Here is a small tip for you, despite trying to run in on OS X those are still linux applications – ie. no ease of installation. If you need help getting it working feel free to email me about it. “Right like Maya, Softimage, PageStream, Houdini, Film Gimp, Renderman..do not forget the film industry is heavily using Linux.” Those run in OS X. Again they are not easy to setup, but they do run. I have managed to get Maya and Film Gimp working. It took a while but they did finally run. 2003-04-02 4:29 pm No, not all criticism is FUD, and much of that is taken into cosideration. This is evident in many of the kernel releases if you check the changelogs. But what the author spoke about was based on the pure FUD that’s out there…much of it is irrelevant now. For those who DO flame back on valid arguments, I hope that if they respond back they do so with valid proof and not with the same baseless arguments a this author did. We may not all agree on the same things, but if we present our opinions in a professional manner and with references to back that up, I don’t see a problem. That’s what a forum is for….discussions. My little comment was a joke about the postings there have been about the Mandrake reviews recently…nothing more…I only mentioned it because I’m sure everyone here is sick of hearing word “Mandrake.” 🙂 Look, the same could be said of Mac users, Amiga users, OS/2 users, BeOS users, et al ad nauseum. 🙂 Everyone becomes thius way about their experience with their favorite OS. While no one likes to see their choice get trashed, we all need to remember why we chose them. Not because someone said that one OS is better, but because it was the tool of choice for that person. But no one is going to stand for misinformation, no matter what OS they’re talking about. 2003-04-02 4:39 pm Out of topic, sorry, but a note to Grant Passmore. Gentoo, in the search for LSB compliance, will be switching to the rpm package format. They will have a dependency database in place, however. 2003-04-02 5:09 pm The more interesting question is to what and IBM,hp, sales team will sell. If the customer tells the they want Linux then sure the Marketing guy will go figure out what it is. Is there are part number? Does it add to my quota? Now they know there is margin in MS. Remember these companies like to charge more. If you look at IBM and hp nodes they are all about making the nodes as expensive and high margin as possible. Hence Red Hat?s strategy. But how many execs are going to know just enough about Linux that when the price tag hits the quote they say “Well this inst that much cheaper then windows.” “MCSEs are cheaper then UNIX admins.” Etc. Etc. Linux is perfect when you already have the staff and can afford to manage the OS. Linux is not heaven. It is cool does lots of stuff but it is still an unproven model for large scale software companies. Distros are also very divergent. Walk into a SUN shop or and AIX shop and there are standards. Walk into a Linux shop and everybody is doing there own thing. This is fine most of the time but what happens when the BOFH quits? Hire a RHCE? Maybe Red Hat can become the platform? Linux is not a platform. Heck who knows what is in a given Kernel half the time? Lets see… 2.4.19 + X + Y + Z and this special driver here. Yeah not divergent at all. And every damn distro and v number is the same way. It works as long as you pay for the people to do it all. And they stay around for more then 6 months. Not a platform. Sort of all you can eat spaghetti. 2003-04-02 6:52 pm I didnt prove anyones point, Did I say Linux was perfect? Nope. Never once did I use the word perfect. Did I not say Linux was a work in progress? Yes I did say Linux was a work in progress and that it is getting much better. Now did I call you a ignorant simple-minded Steve Jobs idolist? No I did not, but thats what Im thinking. See Im not a Mac user, I dont sit there and claim my OS is problem free like the users of some other platform out there.. Tell you what, if you will sit there and confess that Mac OS X is not perfect, then I will have much more respect for you. But that will never happen. I have always said that the biggest problem that Apple has is not its hardware or its software, it is their fanatical, sometimes scary user base. Man you guys and girls are a trip, I have better things to be passionate about than a pile of plastic,glass and metal. See the Mac vs. PC war would long be over if you guys would just sit in your little corner instead of trying to push your beliefs on other people. At this rate it will never die because of people like you. As for my earlier statements, Learn to read before you post because that proves my point. See ya later kid 2003-04-02 7:12 pm Now here is the kicker. Yes, tons of things need to be done in Linux. But my experience is, that the average person criticizing Linux only knows it either from a distro they used once a long time ago (think RedHat 6.x), or from a high-level 30,000 feet point of view. People who actually use Linux day to day on their machines have criticisms, but they’re wholly different ones. This is why these people get lambasted: they’re often criticizing things that are already fixed. For example, Al Pettit: Right off the bat, you mentioned three non-problems: 1) File compatibility. Yes, it’s not perfect. But I don’t sit around all day wishing I had a better MS Word importer. For the majority of documents, the importers in OpenOffice or even KWord work just great. 2) Compiling. You don’t have to compile things anymore. They have these things called package managers now. Installing software is *easier* than on Windows: you simply start up a single tool, click on the software you want, and it’s there. This fact holds true, even in distros like Gentoo. Software installation is not hard, and Linux makes it as easy as it can be. Further, if the user really wants to install a program that isn’t in RPM or DEB format (very rare), I hold that compiling really isn’t that hard. For something you’d expect a Pro-User to do, it simple requires being able to type in “./configure && make && make install” in the appropriate directory. Windows magazines will often cite tips that require you to edit the occasional .ini file or change registry keys, and this isn’t really any harder. 3) Write shell or python scripts. This one is just false. Even back when I was using Slackware 3.5, I never had to write a script to get things working. You want to know what really *does* bother Linux user’s these days? Here is a list of stuff that bothers me: 1) Lack of content-creation apps. Stuff like Flash MX or Fireworks or Dreamweaver. While Quanta is moving towards being a Dreamweaver-killer, there are tons of content-creation niches that are gaping holes in the Linux software lineup. 2) The KDE project not being able to decide what it’s “official” apps are for certain tasks. Sometimes apps will fall by the wayside, and be released in half-finished form while a perfectly usable replacement is out there, but not bundled. Kit was like this, until it was replaced by Kopete. Noatun hasn’t changed since KDE 3.0, and severely needs work. This severely impacts KDE’s otherwise remarkable integration. 3) I wish commercial developers would stop coding to Motif and code to GTK+ or Qt. I’d prefer Qt, but GTK+ would be fine. It’s not like commercial apps behave the same as normal ones anyway. 4) The distro makers need to work through the corner cases. This is the big one. Right now, all the major bases in Linux are covered. Software installation, hardware detection, system configuration, etc. All are either automated, or have decent GUIs. However, there are lots of corner cases to fix. There is hardware that won’t autodetect, situations where X won’t autoconfigure (my laptop LCD, for example), there are important tools that sometimes lack fully-featured GUI configurators, there is certain software that isn’t packaged in one of the easy to use package formats. It’s all a matter of polish and completeness. This is what Linux lacks right now. 2003-04-02 7:34 pm Are you guys thick headed or what? Who gives a sh*t if UT2003 & Quake3 have linux versions, if people who never heard of linux sees a linux version of something they won’t care. Face it store shelves are 99.9% windows software & that is if they even have linux software. Why would any adverage computer user even think about linux, when s/he cant find linux software on store shelves? Every computer user doesn’t want to search the web for a application, less want to compile it. Why should they when they can go to their local computer store & pick up a program, pop in the cd, & install. If we want linux to become a desktop os, we need a better way to install 3rd party software. From YaST2 for SuSE & stuff like that it is easy enough. I am talking about clicking a .rpm installing, without it puting a shortcut on the desktop &/or the menu for your gui. Or if you want more to deal with how about the dependancey issue. A complete gui config tool would be good to & for god sakes distro makers put ads in more than linux magizine, a computer user who doesn’t read linux magizines won’t see that ad. 2003-04-02 8:09 pm A GOOD MCSE is not cheaper than a GOOD UNIX admin. Don’t compare some kid who took the tests 10 times each to pass with no real experience to someone who’s been building networks for many years. Excuse me, I just get sick of hearing this slashdot crap flung in all directions. 2003-04-02 8:22 pm Robert you are proving my point #1 I didn’t say the mac was better, the reason I mentioned the mac was because it is very common for people to call mac users a religious group and or cult. But I am showing that Linux to has this. I called it political, because I do not see it as a religion. #2 if you read my 2nd post you would say that I stated: “I have seen thread after thread on OS news where someone makes decent valid arguments against OS (fill in your OS here) and gets flamed back.” So I stated that it’s just more than just Linux users, but I targeted Linux users because of all the posts. So it seems that rather than read my posts you got all emotional and responded about how great Linux was and everyone else is wrong or lazy or afraid. Again thanks kid, you proved my point.. Why don’t you do me a favor and say something else that helps me. 2003-04-02 8:33 pm >”Right like Maya, Softimage, PageStream, Houdini, Film Gimp, >Renderman..do not forget the film industry is heavily using >Linux.” >Those run in OS X. Again they are not easy to setup, but they >do run. I have managed to get Maya and Film Gimp working. It >took a while but they did finally run. It was not about getting them to work under MacOSX but i was replying on the fact that this guy said: MacOX has software were Linux can only dream off. Thats just not true. I really like to see some screenshots of your Linux version of Maya run under MacOSX. Is it to much trouble to post them somewhere? SoftImage does not run under MacOSx because of desintress. Houdini from SideFX also does not run under MacOSX for the same reason. I would be amazed if you can get them to work under MacOSX or BSD. 2003-04-02 8:56 pm > 1) File compatibility. Yes, it’s not perfect. But I don’t sit around all day wishing I had a better MS Word importer. For the majority of documents, the importers in OpenOffice or even KWord work just great. I use Openoffice and it would be grand if all Linux Applications installed like this, but in reality they do not. Openoffice is great, I use it on Win2K as well, but it’s not as complete as MS office. Sorry, it’s not. But for a Free application it’s one of the best Applications I can find. When I finish with a statics book I have I am going to donate it to openoffice.org so they can implement some of the commands that MS office has. I bet when I explain to the open office people what they are lacking that MS office has they won’t go on telling me who stupid or lazy I am, they will probably see what open office is lacking and fix it. >2) Compiling. You don’t have to compile things anymore. Sometimes you do. Lets face it, not all the software is binary. It depends on who coded it and how it’s distributed. Then god forbid you are missing some lib that you have to get somewhere else. Again not everything has an installer. Windows/Mac programmers don’t assume we all have C compilers installed. > 3) Write shell or python scripts. This one is just false. Even back when I was using Slackware 3.5, I never had to write a script to get things working. I edit scripts, I don’t write them. I am ok enough to edit others work, I cannot claim to create my own, but in any case a lot of tools on linux are scripts with front ends. This is good because it there are many many many tools and they are easilly portable. Some scripts are really cool, but not for the average user. Problem is when you criticize, there is always some excuse. 1) You are lazy, afraid, stupid, ||0+ e1Y+e eN0u6h, or just add your own personal slur 2) You are using the wrong distro, you should be using, blah blah blah 3) The software is free you get what you pay for. 4) You have to be a Microsoft employee 5) Now its, oh you used old stuff thats now fixed I can go on… 2003-04-02 9:46 pm >I bet when I explain to the open office people what they are >lacking that MS office has they won’t go on telling me who >stupid or lazy I am, they will probably see what open office >is lacking and fix it. Feedback is great and helps building a better product but OpenOffice is not MS Office so its not a question of lack but of choice and you are not the only one who is submitting ideas. >they will probably see what open office >is lacking and fix it. I am glad you are around. Where would the wolrd be without you…… :- 2003-04-02 9:59 pm //Let’s see: OpenOffice, Koffice, StarOffice, Abiword. This article has got to be an April fool’s joke.// Yah, and that’s a funny one, too … actually suggesting OOo is on par with Office. … cracks me up … 2003-04-02 11:44 pm Well kid, Im going to say something insulting to you right now that I will probably get modded down for, but I could give a f–k less, You made my point exactly, thank YOU for helping me out, You post because when another OS gets positive attention you see fit to trash it, All mac users do, when Eugenia posts a review of the Powerbook 12, Its flames galore, When she states she likes Windows XP’s interface she gets flames. My posts were not praising Linux or an ” inability to handle the truth ” And I did not find you criticizing Linux, It was to educate you from where linux was to where it is now, to point out to you that it has come so far along that it will surpass Mac OS X in a fairly short amount of time since that seems to be the OS you favor so much and want to give Kudos for. But you know what, its stupid people like you, who cant seem to learn, the ignorant, the shortsighted basically the losers. So go ahead with your little Mac, continue to rant and trash every other OS on the planet. You show nuthing but ignorance and yes, Apples biggest problems are its users. Because if a company says its going to drop Mac support you are the first one who sits there and writes them a little letter cussing em out and everything else. We hadnt even decided to cut Mac support yet, it got leaked to the press and our Webmaster got 857 e-mail messages in one day from Mac users, basically saying our company is garbage we will be bankrupt in a year because they gave some kind of silly huge number of how much we sell in Mac software which is actually waaay lower than we actually sell and saying they are going to boycott us if we cut Mac support. Personally I hope it is soon because then I will be able to concentrate more on Linux and Windows. Keep running your mouth you arent proving you are right you are just proving you are an a–. Grow up son 2003-04-03 12:25 am You finished generalizing about all Mac users yet? I can tell your pretty pissed, a few of your sentences managed to contradict themselves: “You post because when another OS gets positive attention you see fit to trash it, All mac users do, when Eugenia posts a review of the Powerbook 12, Its flames galore, When she states she likes Windows XP’s interface she gets flames.” Why would we flame our own thread on 12″ PowerBooks? I realize you think we are stupid… but please Also, if you think Apple people are mean to you, you might to give some thought as to how you come across in a lot of your posts. You tend to, “wear your heart on your sleeve” so to speak around here. I’m not joking, usually when I see a post from Roberto J Dohnert – I know there is going to be some slight in there relating to Apple. “And I did not find you criticizing Linux, It was to educate you from where linux was to where it is now, to point out to you that it has come so far along that it will surpass Mac OS X in a fairly short amount of time since that seems to be the OS you favor so much and want to give Kudos for.” Acutally I think the general concensus and your not so pleasant mood hint that he was found to be criticizing linux. I appreciate your efforts to education him about where linux is now; while at the same time managing to bash both the Mac OS and its community. Thats a pretty impressive feat. Oh almost forgot, before you start telling me I’m an a– as well, I’ll take you up on that admitting Mac OS X isn’t perfect. Its not, it has a prebinding bug that has not been fixed in the past few updates. Its kind of annoying really. Happy? Hope you still respect me in the morning With Love, Vince PS for Bas- I can see about getting you some screen shots, its not on my system as I don’t have any talent to use Maya. So it may take a bit. I did it for a friend of mine here in miami that sells systems. One of his clients is a MAC shop, unfortunately they didn’t want to switch over to Linux. In his words they’re “artsy fartsy pains in the ass.” So he said he’d see what he could do for them about getting Maya to work in OS X. I said I’d give it a shot and it took me about 2weeks of free nights to get it to finally work. 2003-04-03 12:27 am I’d like to point one thing: I like linux as an OS *and* as a “movement”. Notice I said “I like”. I could have said “I find better”, “It’s more modular”, “Source is editable” and other such things. That’s akin to some people saying “I like BeOS” or “I like OS/2”. Did you ever hear someone say “I like Windows”? Or “I love Windows”? This doesn’t mean Windows will always lose. Certain situations call for Windows software. But this need is smaller as time passes. 2003-04-03 1:48 am Why would we flame our own thread on 12″ PowerBooks? I realize you think we are stupid… but please Because she said the screen was garbage. I don’t know if it is, I haven’t seen one. 2003-04-03 1:56 am Actually no I like Apple, I just dont like some of its user base. If you think I am mean to Apple, you should see how I am towards Lindows.com. ” Acutally I think the general concensus and your not so pleasant mood hint that he was found to be criticizing linux. I appreciate your efforts to education him about where linux is now; while at the same time managing to bash both the Mac OS and its community. Thats a pretty impressive feat.” No I never found him to be criticizing Linux, But I think if someone is saying something wrong or neglecting to mention important facts, I dont think people should be quiet about it because thats how misinformation and FUD get started. And when misinformation and FUD get going it not only hurts the Linux reputation its also hard on the developers many of us make a living at this. I never bashed the Mac OS X I just said I didnt like it and that it isnt perfect, as for my comment about the Apple user base being more of a problem than Mac OS X or Apple hardware, hey Im just calling it like I see it. If Apple users think I am mean, well, I am. Its part of my job. Im paid to be hard and to be mean and I do my job well. Apple computers are good for something, without them I wouldnt be able to run Yellowdog Linux ” Oh almost forgot, before you start telling me I’m an a– as well, I’ll take you up on that admitting Mac OS X isn’t perfect. Its not, it has a prebinding bug that has not been fixed in the past few updates. Its kind of annoying really. Happy? Hope you still respect me in the morning With Love, Vince ” No, I dont think all Mac users are an a–. Just some of them, I find quite a few I can get along with. I mean I love my computer I dont LOVE my computer, one of my employees sleeps with his iBook on the pillow next to him, he carries it around with him everywhere and he threatened to quit if I didnt install an airport base station. I nixed that idea in a heartbeat, when I took my team out on a fishing trip he brought the darn thing along. Now if you are telling me thats not extreme I dont know what is. 2003-04-03 1:59 am OpenOffice.org IS an Office killer. It fullfils 100% of the needs of 80% of the users. When I was still trapped in the Windows world (before I knew of linux) I considered myself a power user of Office, but I have only occasionaly had problems accomplishing what I want in OOo. I use MySQL to create db’s (instead of Access), which is one of the few things I don’t think the average user could do (but the average user does not use Access). I probably build about one PC per month (whenever a friend asks me to do so) and I always install OOo for them. Whenever they ask for Office, I request another $500, and they readily have me install OOo. The one thing I will agree with from the article is lack of marketing (at least for the desktop). Most (approx. 75%) of the boxes I build end up with MS Windows because they don’t want to use something they’re unfamiliar with, or have the fear that they have to be like me to run Linux. 2003-04-03 2:04 am ” We hadnt even decided to cut Mac support yet, it got leaked to the press and our Webmaster got 857 e-mail messages in one day from Mac users, basically saying our company is garbage we will be bankrupt in a year because they gave some kind of silly huge number of how much we sell in Mac software which is actually waaay lower than we actually sell and saying they are going to boycott us if we cut Mac support. Personally I hope it is soon because then I will be able to concentrate more on Linux and Windows. Keep running your mouth you arent proving you are right you are just proving you are an a–. ” I meant to say higher than what we actually sell 2003-04-03 2:27 am See proving it again. I never said the Mac OS was better. That was not my argument, you assumed it since I stated the argument about Mac users being called Religious Zealots. In fact I wrote all my posts from a Windows Box. See there is a common thread that Mac users fall into a cult or religion and I was comparing that to Linux users. There are many linux users that do not take any critism. I made a note in my posts that you can say that about all users of all OSes, but this thread was about Linux and the ranting was from linux users, so I brought it up about those users. Rather than see my argument for what it was you went into a Linux vs Mac rant. Typical of one of the users I just described. As for users who love to much of a specific technology such as your friend with the ibook. He needs a lady. You love people, you use computers. 🙂 2003-04-03 3:36 am Dude you are f–king stupid, Yes you fall into a cult and yes you did state the Mac OS was better than Linux, Did you not point out that Mac OS X was easier to use? Yes you did, Do I still think you are a moronic, simpleminded idiot who doesnt have a clue what he is talking about? Yes I do. Grow the F up and quit trolling. 2003-04-03 3:41 am You are trying to compare Apples with Oranges, scuse the pun, If you dont like what I said ignore me and move on I said my peace, you cant change my mind no matter how many times you post. You obviously disagree with me so move on. You obviously like to go around misinformed. Thats your privilege. Go about your daily business kid. 2003-04-03 7:37 am It’s a cliché, not a pun. Apples to oranges that is… 2003-04-03 9:00 am Would be great if you could tell me how you did get Maya 4 for Linux to run under MacOS, i am especially intressted in hardware preformance and drivers since the Linux version has got completly other hardware drivers then the MacOSX version. I would also appriciate (my english spelling is horrible sorry) if you could publish your stoy on an 3d linux forum, like linux artist etc. Thanks in advance. Bas 2003-04-03 9:08 am my email adress is: email@example.com 2003-04-03 2:03 pm Go back and read my posts and quote me where I stated that Mac OS was better.. Since you have not done it so far, I assume you cannot. If you look at one of my posts I stated that unless Linux deals with these things Windows will stay on 90% of the computers. I think in you furious rage that anyone would dare question your beloved OS you may have confused me with another poster. Whats funny is I made a note that linux zealots cannot take any critism about linux and bam you went right into a Linux vs Mac OS rant. Whats even funnier is that you decided to e-mail me with your rants. I am not trying to change your mind, but I do get to push your buttons and discredit you to the users of OS news. And as Bill Oreilly states “and we will let the viewers decide” 2003-04-03 2:38 pm This article is baseless garbage, If Linux was at a standstill in development and i would say it has merits but being that it doesnt it just is stupid. Marketing is not where it should be but companies are working on that IBM, HP, Sun and Oracle are working very hard to market Linux and even made money off of it. There a several desktop oriented distros coming out that are making alot of headway into the market place and are even finding their way onto prebuilt-systems, Linux’s future is very bright, I have one ting to say to the author of this article, puff, puff, pass. 2003-04-03 2:49 pm >Whats funny is I made a note that linux zealots cannot take >any critism about linux and bam you went right into a Linux >vs Mac OS rant. All-zealots cannot take any critism especially Linux-zealots, because, they are right and everybody knowns they are.. 2003-04-03 3:58 pm No I am like 30, while you are what 12? 13? Most likely 14. ” I think in you furious rage that anyone would dare question your beloved OS you may have confused me with another poster. Whats funny is I made a note that linux zealots cannot take any critism about linux and bam you went right into a Linux vs Mac OS rant. ” What rage? I wrote you off as a dumba– quite a few many posts ago. I dont get mad at ignorant people, I feel sorry for them. As for my beloved OS, HAHAHAHA I work with Windows, Linux and Irix, I favor none of them. Well I do favor Irix more than the others because it is the most technically advanced OS in market today and SGIs hardware is the best, expensive but it is the best, the GUI may not be all there but a quick trip to KDE.org fixes the problem as far as Linux goes i do favor SuSE and Yellowdog more. ” I am not trying to change your mind, but I do get to push your buttons and discredit you to the users of OS news. ” The only person that pushes my buttons is my wife, as for dicrediting me. I stated my opinions, and I left it alone you were the one that dragged this thing on, you didnt discredit me, you just showed the readers what a moronic idiot you are. Move on kid, before I tell your mommy and daddy that you are online looking at porn or something. 2003-04-03 4:25 pm I am not trying to change your mind, but I do get to push your buttons and discredit you to the users of OS news. Discredit him? You are just making yourself look like a jerk.