Mono 0.24 is released, while .NET advocate John Carroll says that .Net develops advantages over Java.
Mono 0.24 Released
2003-05-07 Mono 43 Comments
Mono 0.24 is released, while .NET advocate John Carroll says that .Net develops advantages over Java.
How far are these guys away from .NET? Are they closer than WINE is to the Win32 API?
The are using the WINE for the Windows.Form API, all the other class of .NET are coded by and without the bloat of ms (Winform are the best widget out there)
look at http://go-mono.com/winforms.html
Pretty far actually.
looking at http://www.go-mono.com/class-status-System.html shows that they almost have half of the classes completed, others are already being worked on.
openlink <a href=”http://www.openlinksw.com/press/virt3rel.htm“>released a cross platform application written in .NET using mono to run on linux.
just looking at the <a href=”http://www.go-mono.com/screenshots.html“>screenshots shows that it’s possible to write pretty nice apps for mono.
they also have support for databases which microsoft doesn’t have, gtk#, …
and looking at the release notes for this release they are already building support into their compiler for the future changes microsoft plans for c# (iterators)
i would say they are doing pretty well
k, So I really don’t care much about java vs .net, but just to even the balance a bit:
I’m not a big fan of .NET, but I’ve been very impressed with the progress of the Mono project. This new release includes a new code generator (originally called Mini). This new generator is more complient, a lot faster, and its architecture is more flexible to allow for future optimizations. Given the project started just a few years ago, the progress is incredible. Now if only Parrot would show some progress…
heh, i’m wondering if MS.NET will die, as lot of other MS “initiatives”, buzzwords and hype, but MONO will live and progress.
is a slobbering, fawning Microsoft whore. Everything I have read from him is so pro-Microsoft, I don’t think anyone should listen to him if they want even a remotely objective point of view. If you want to lock your development into Windows, choose .net. If you want to make Microsoft the center of your world, choose .net. My clients are reaching the point where they can’t afford to make that choice.
cilc: Alp Toker has provided us with cilc, a tool that can generate C bindings to any assembly. This tool is useful if you want to reuse managed code from your C application. This is typically used by those who embed the Mono runtime into their existing C code.
So.. Is it possible to write a new OS with C and C# or only C#? It might be silly question, but hey.. I don’t really know C/C++/C# that much, I don’t write/read them. I am just curious.. 🙂
….is a complete MS candidate rather than .NET candidate. if MS had Java, then he would advocate Java as a good MS puppy and classical capitalist shark. He has a firm in England concentrated on .NET, and he has countless .NET blessing “articles” on zdnet, which are always made OSNews news bullets as if he is an important authority by OSNews, in the name of classical OSNews attacks on Java.
who the fuck is John Carroll for fucks sake? ha ha.
Obviously you have read any of his other editorials or reponses, for example, a while back he wrote an editorial on the positive aspects of opensource, he also in a number of accasions praised mono.
if yo had half a brain you’d know that for a while he lived in Switzerland then he moved to Ireland where he resides right now.
So.. Is it possible to write a new OS with C and C# or only C#?
C and C# are just languages. With a suitable compiler: yes, why not. Even with C# only and the appropriate supporting assemblies
they also have support for databases which microsoft doesn’t have
I doubt it. They get database support through ODBC, just like .NET, so they’ll support any database for which an ODBC database has been written. And don’t forget that Mono isn’t necessarily alternative to .NET – everything that misses from .NET can be easily taken from Mono
Is about an inch away from getting an MS marketing position, but seriously this guy is complete MS whore. Someone mentioned the fact that he praised mono as praising open source. MS loves mono because they don’t want to officially support other OSes, which totally kills the concept of .NET in the first place. The great thing about java is you a get a sun supported runtime environment and SDK for each major platform free. What happens when MS releases a new version of .NET? You wont be able to implement those new classes across multiple platforms until Mono can play catchup. .NET has some advantages over Java, but it also creates a whole new set of issues that take away from the concept of portability, which is the main reason why languages like Java were created in the first place.
its related with memory. yep his firm is not in england, but in ireland. that was not the point dear idiot. the point was that he is an MS puppy, abd has a firm on .NET. of course he will promote .NET. he has been licking gates’s balls for years and fighting with java. the good thing is that although ms marketing machine has millions of dollars, and puppies, mostly after money and fame, such as him and poor miguel, people are not buying it. java rules dear. –: ))))
of course eugenia will not make it a news bullet, since does not please carroll or miguel, but:
http://news.com.com/2100-1007_3-1000011.html the news.com bullet says that according to the Evans Data market researcher, who surveyed 600 MS developers in us, 52 percentage of developers use visual basic, but 43 percent of them are planning to change to Java, C#, C++. the ones want to move to java field is 31 percent. –: ) this is pure movement from ms field to java field for instance. so, java is getting even more stronger. i’m currently in turkey for some project, and even here, there is no VB as it used to be in the past. everybody is doing linux based java web apps on the server side, and some firms even started to make java clients, for instance some hospital information system, since the computers in hospital are now not only windows, and java is the only true choice for cross platform compatible programs, and its working. –: ) but surely carroll will keep on writing why c# will conquer java next year etc, and osnews will be making his articles news bullets, and miguel will keep on looking to the world behind his pink glasses. just usual lies. –: ))))
The article you mentioned also states that 39% of current VB developers are planning to move to C#.
I’ll start praising Java as a desktop solution once it can run at an acceptable speed, however, until then I’ll keep an openmind.
“The article you mentioned also states that 39% of current VB developers are planning to move to C#.”
of course there will be move to c# too. that was not my point. my point was, as i was saying it here last year, that .NET will be mainly followed by poor souls already deep in ms shit. eg visual basic coders etc. ((i was suggesting there will be probably very small shift from java to .net. it also approved to be true, but its another subject.) and, while ms followers are moving to .net, there will be escapes. not 100 percent will remain with ms technologies. you see, not 100 percent of the VB developers who wants to move away from VB, have selected to move to .net. nearly an equal percentage wants to move to java. this is DIRECT LOSS from the point of view of MS developer base, and .NET. do you understand now? it shows previously 100 percent ms followers are branching to .net and java with nearly equal weight.
“I’ll start praising Java as a desktop solution once it can run at an acceptable speed, however, until then I’ll keep an openmind.”
well, there are many java client side programs running at acceptible speed, such as eclipse, being the greatest IDE platform efford in the IT history, limewire, jext, etc. if you want to see more, check out swing sightings’ last issue for instance:
the argument “java on the client side is SLOW” is a 100 percent MYTH at 2003. It was true in the past, but simply not true now, with the radical leaps in hw speed and years of years of jvm optimizations. there are many client side java programs including data base editors, text editors, xml editors apart from eclipse, that i use every day, which do run with acceptible speed.
besides, being another vm based environment, does .net programs run faster? on what platform? which client side c# programs btw? –: ))))
and sure. you are openminded.
>the argument “java on the client side is SLOW” is a 100
>percent MYTH at 2003
Hmm I’d like to believe that… On an AthlonXP 2000+, Java programs run well. But less well than others. On an Ultra5, it takes over 5 minutes to start the Sun Management Console?? And two minutes on the aforementioned AthlonXP.
They run at an acceptable speed now, yes. But slower than anything else I run on these machines, so why bother when there is a native equivalent? LimeWire and StarOffice are the only two apps I run that are remotely concerned with Java.
IMHO, Java is fast enough these days. For my final year dissertation which I just handed in, I wrote a neural network simulator in Java. It has a Swing UI, and while it runs perfectly on my AthlonXP 1700, it also runs fine on my tutor’s PII 300 Mhz with 128 MB RAM.
I think it all boils down to how you code the application. My theory (totally unsubtantiated) is that because Java is a relatively easy programming language, many people use it even though they aren’t properly trained.
Java, slow? Are you kidding yourself?
Compared to what language? The only language I know that beats Java consistently is Fortran, and its only for numerical work. Its comparable in speed to compiled languages like C, C++, Pascal. Blows away any scripting language like Perl and Python. And definitely handles better loads that any language based on Microsoft CLR.
Head over to http://blog.manageability.org?catname=101+List to see more benchmarks.
Who said anything about C#/.net being faster? it seems that you’re the only person here willing to bag anything that is remotely linked with Microsoft. As I have said, I’ll keep an openmind on what happens.
As for Java’s speed, yes it can be fast having used IBM’s JVM, that is a case in point.
What you’re comparing is raw number crunching, what most people mean by speed is responsiveness when interacting with the application.
As for the example of eclipse, the only reason why it is fast is because they’ve thrown off the crusty bagage of swing and instead used SWT.
I knew we would hear more whining from CroanoN. The author of the article may be a MS fan, but that does not detract from his valid points.
If you think Eclipse is the best IDE, and that it’s responsiveness is acceptible, then you have never used it to work on an enterprise caliber app. It slows to a crawl when you have a large app loaded. Many developers use it where I work on an app with 1 million+ lines of code, and it is just plain slow. It makes me want to bash my head repeatedly into the monitor while I am waiting for it to build. Keep in mind that I am a Java developer and use jEdit as my text editor at work, but I am able to appreciate good engineering when I see it. And .NET is an excellent example.
And before you say that I am a “MS whore”, you might like to know that my OS of choice is BeOS and soon to be Zeta.
Yes, it is true on desktop. Every Java based desktop application starts new JVM with SWING and other java classes. It is totally unuseable if you want use more than one program (multitasking rulez :-). And IMHO java language is very poor if I compare to C#. No properties, events, operator overloading, etc. It was very good when JDK 1.0.2 released, but now IMHO little bit outdated. I am a linux developer (gcc + wxWindows and Kylix) but IMHO the mono is better idea then java.
… used to be a Java advocate. He’s discovered something that he likes better. Big deal.
Your ad hominum attacks on him mrkurt and CroanoN show a lack of thought. Dismissing him out of hand because you see him as an advocate of what he likes is no argument against his point of view.
And, by the way, he owned a Java company as well. Big deal.
More time to browse the web when stuff is loading. 🙂
you all take your jobs way to seriously.
VM sharing is slated for 1.5. It is already implemented by Apple’s VM. That should solve the memory hog problem, which I agree is Java’s biggest problem at the moment.
AFAIK, .NET suffers from this problem too, and I’m not sure when it will be solved (or if it is already solved in v1.1).
I think Mono looks nice and all, but I really wish that instead of using Wine + Winforms that they would instead get wxWindows to work with Mono. I use wxPython and wxWindows and they are both great.
Wine may be great for those people that just have to have MS Office in their Linux environment, but I would rather have native apps, and will probably never use GTK# apps if they require wine to run.
“AFAIK, .NET suffers from this problem too, and I’m not sure when it will be solved (or if it is already solved in v1.1).”
it does NOT suffer from this and needn’t be solved in v1.1
The importance in this project is not to clone .NET exactly (if they could they would, I’m sure.) But, to create a useful language that would be familiar to developers (mainly C# ones). It’s better that way, in my opinion.
what would a .NET article be without Croanon whining. Boohoo, c# fixes a lot of the brain damage of java and Croanon can’t deal with it. C# is just a little too complex for poor old Croanon. Java is fine and will be around for a long time like COBOL, but(get this through your head Croanon) will never make it on the client side, no matter how much you whine.
I have respect for Java Swing UI because it has some platform neutral functionality. It is probably one of the most advanced UI libraries ever created.
On the other hand, I believe that the Java core language is weak, for example it should support operator overloading and generics (templates). I believe that some of this functionality will be included in the 1.5 J2SE version that will be released later this year.
To tell you the truth, I don’t think that anyone has a complete solution (.Net or Java or Mono). I would like to see Standard C++ as a core language for a native widget OOP toolkit or a UI toolkit in the form of an GNU Linux open source application server.
These middleware solution platforms took out of your hands the ability to create libraries. You need operator overloading, generics, and multiple inheritance as well as more specific scope capabilities to create libaries. In Java and .Net the vendor is the keyholder. You specialize through vendor libraries. Your solutions leverage vendor research and development. You do not have the tools an capabilities to generalize and implement systems.
Completely agree with you on a standard gui api for c++. the major reason java is any good, because you’re right the core language is way too dumbed down c++, is because of the libraries. c# fixes much of the brain damage of java but will never be as cross-platform as java. But it will be a nice alternative to developing desktop apps.
GTK# apps do not require wine to run. Why should they. And I am sure somebody will write bindings to wxWindows. It is really easy to write C# bindings to C or C++ libraries, since C# can work with pointers in unsafe code.
>These middleware solution platforms took out of your hands the ability to create libraries.
What makes you think that you can not create libraries in C#? There are lots of small software companies that sell .NET libraries written in C#. It is much easier and more fun to develop libraries in C# than in C++ (IMHO).
C# has operator overloading and will soon have generics. Multiple inheritance is overrated.
they also have support for databases which microsoft doesn’t have
I doubt it. They get database support through ODBC, just like .NET
I agree with your assesment KJK, but you are incorrect about ODBC use. MS’s support for MS and Oracle databases is through OLEDB and ADO.NET; MS only goes through ODBC for databases they don’t care as much about. Mono supports many more databases mostly through pure C# implementations of their respective TCP access protocols, although occasionally through GDB library access or Unix ODBC. Most of these DB subsystems are third-party projects, though.
On the other hand, the pure C# DB access subsystems usually run on .NET as well, so although you can say that MS doesn’t support accessing these databases, you can access them on .NET just fine despite MS, thanks. That’s one of my favorite side effects of Mono: Occasionally you get better tools for the .NET platform than those made by MS
>>… used to be a Java advocate. He’s discovered something that he likes better. Big deal.<<
Yeah, he likes the idea of all the dough he thinks he will rake in pushing .net. My point is, it has reached the point where Microsoft cannot be trusted to respond to the needs of its customers without them shelling out a lot of cash. Anybody staking their future as a developer on .net is likely to get burned.