Home > Java > Sun Makes Crucial Step Toward Open Source J2EE Sun Makes Crucial Step Toward Open Source J2EE Submitted by Deniz Kaan Copur 2003-09-23 Java 24 Comments Sun has awarded a scholarship worth several hundred thousand dollars to the ObjectWeb Consortium, a nonprofit organization based in France, so it can begin certification testing on its JOnAS (Java Open Application Server) J2EE implementation. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 24 Comments 2003-09-23 11:06 am Sun cannot compete with Microsoft. Microsoft can push .NET much further than Sun can push Java. However, by open sourcing Java (after all, what money do Sun make by selling Java?) they massively mutliply the development resources for furthering Java. 2003-09-23 11:47 am <<However, by open sourcing Java they massively mutliply the development resources for furthering Java.>> i concur, making Java OpenSource is a good move for Sun & the OpenSource/ GNU/Linux community can help develop/debug and make Java a better product… HappyTrails 2003-09-23 12:06 pm I’ll be interested to see how Sun treats the Apache project that is going forward with the same idea, open source j2ee server. ( http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo.html ) Right now its still in the incubation phase but it is gaining a lot of support and momentem. If Sun does the same for them it would a great move. Ecspecially since sun already uses Tomcat in all its web service developers pack downloads. Anyone know if its still included with SunONE Studio? Haven’t used it since I discovered NetBeans. 2003-09-23 12:08 pm Could you please direct me towards competing .NET framework implementations that are fully compatible with .NET 1.1 specifications, also, could you please show me where I can get a non-Microsoft .NET based application server. 2003-09-23 12:16 pm i concur, making Java OpenSource is a good move for Sun & the OpenSource/ GNU/Linux community can help develop/debug and make Java a better product… Java JDK/JRE is already opensourced under the SUN Community License and if you want to add features to it, you can the only downside is that you can’t distribute a binary version, you can only distribute the changes and it is up to the end user to download the source then apply the “enhancements” you have made in the form of a diff file. All this article is about is another J2EE opensource application server, no different to JBoss and any other opensource one out there. I find it rather strange that SUN is still apprehensive over certifying JBoss yet they jump into bed with ObjectWeb Consortium instantly. 2003-09-23 12:33 pm in the article it says, jboss is not a nonprofit organization, so sun does not want to give money to them for the j2ee certification. but i heard that jboss wanted to pay the money for the certification and sun didn’t accept. i would be happy if somebody knows about this issue, and explains it. by the way, i would like to add that, jonas is as good as jboss. (actually, i like it more than jboss. personal idea, no flames please.) it is one of the projects sponsored by french telecom and red hat. red hat will be including it in their next server product release. 2003-09-23 1:02 pm Another typical example of Sun being friendly to OSS projects. Of course, nothing can stop the moaners from having their sense of entitlement and demanding that Sun hand over 100% of its IP, nothing can stop them from not showing any gratitutde whatsoever, nothing can stop them from continuing with their fiction of Sun-the-OSS-hating company. Its all very funny. 2003-09-23 1:10 pm I don’t understand why Sun and JBoss can’t get along. I think it would be massively beneficial, PR wise, for Sun to allow JBoss to become certified. After all, is they’re really that much difference between a community led OS project and an nonprofit one? Surely its the license the software is under not so much how it is funded? 2003-09-23 1:10 pm CroanoN (IP: —.bnet.net.tr) – Posted on 2003-09-23 12:33:56 in the article it says, jboss is not a nonprofit organization, so sun does not want to give money to them for the j2ee certification. but i heard that jboss wanted to pay the money for the certification and sun didn’t accept. i would be happy if somebody knows about this issue, and explains it. I understand JBoss is a for-profit company, however, I was getting at the point of why JBoss hasn’t been certified yet. IMHO, it doesn’t really matter as most people who are in the J2EE customer base already know that JBoss is J2EE compatible and all the certification is just another “formality”, similar to an operating system not being called UNIX even though all and sundry know that it is already UNIX compatible. by the way, i would like to add that, jonas is as good as jboss. (actually, i like it more than jboss. personal idea, no flames please.) it is one of the projects sponsored by french telecom and red hat. red hat will be including it in their next server product release. Well, what ever pulls people away from .NET and Microsoft is good in my eyes. Sames goes for operating systems that pull people away from Windows. Linux, MacOS X, Solaris and *BSD, we’re all UNIX’s and we’re all in it together. 2003-09-23 1:23 pm dont get along because jboss’ marketing department was always quite anti sun. Jboss is not fully j2ee compliant (although for most apps it is good enough) and would fail suns compliance tests. Sun offered them the test at a reduced price and they have not yet taken sun up on the offer. jboss produce a very good product however and i would reccomend it to most. 2003-09-23 1:25 pm JBoss is not “community led Open Source”. JBoss is an awful product, in fact. Its very obscurantist, and deliberately so, because they, the JBoss company, depends on selling you documentation to fogure out how to make the thing work. You download it and it has a 3line document telling you how to get it up and running – oh but wait, then there’s no clear instruction on how to *start* the thing so you search usenet and shitty documentation and cave in and buy their documentation eventually – to find it is about 18 months out of date. It has to be one of the most deliberately obfuscated and difficult appservers out there. It makes the Sun Reference Implementation look like weblogic. I don’t want to have to fill in 101 config files just to bootstrap the damned thing, I don’t want to have to define where every service is and how it should be configured exactly, I don’t want to have to spend $99 on out of date documentation that is REQUIRED to get anywhere at all. Perhaps they think they are clever, not having default jsp/ejb/lib homes, and making you suffer with 101 ant/doclet files. This is the problem with JBoss. Unlike, say, Caucho, who had the balls to go with a shareware-ish liscence model and who’s implementation kicks ass in not giving you a shit time and in being easy to use, they are a nightmare in almost every conievable way. But, they HAVE to be a nightmare, and they HAVE to be difficult to understand and obscurantist about everything, because otherwise they can’t make money selling their out-of-date documentation and providing training and such that educates developers about every single detail of their appserver that, idealistically, they just shouldn’t need to know about at all. JBoss gets all this kudos for being “open source” and people automatically assume it is a community effort, can’t do any wrong, etc. Well, it isn’t. they grab the jakarta project, glue it together differently, call it “jboss” and then try to get rich off consulting (CON sulting) and gimcrack sales. Why should they, a company, get Sun’a aid for free? Sun gives to NONPROFITS, not to companies out to make money for themselves who are fond of publicity stunts and moaning about how evil Sun are for keeping them down, etc. Hell, JBoss got the right to be j2ee certified eventually – and they didn’t. And why? Because JBoss is NOWHERE NEAR j2ee compliant. They just like to moan and moan about how they are being “kept from” compliance because they have some sort of sense of entitlement and they think making out the entire j2ee world is running scared from them/is scared of open source makes them look important. Then Sun gives money and aid to a REAL and non-hypocritical non-profit that provides a good, easy to use, non-crippled product. On this page ( http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1269923,00.asp ) Sun’s attitude to JBoss is covered pretty well I think: ***** Jonathan Schwartz, executive vice president of Sun’s software group, told eWEEK: “I’ll give you a pretty clear view, at least from my perspective, on how we manage Java and the open-source world. There are some duplicitous companies that like to compare and equate open source with not-for-profit. And I assure you we will deliver all of our technology licenses, all of them, free of charge to not-for-profit organizations at infinite scale. However, if a not-for-profit delivers its products to a for-profit company that then turns around and sells those products to another company, that is not a not-for-profit. That is a for-profit company, and they muct pay for a Java license. So JBoss.org, as a not-for-profit-if it in fact delivers products to customers free of charge-should not pay for the license. JBoss.com, the company that in fact is commercializing that product, if it receives delivery from JBoss.org and then turns around and delivers that product for fee to customers, they will pay for that privilege.” ***** Damned right, Schwartz tells it like it is, and JBoss are a bunch of hypocritical whiners using innocent, gullible geek sensibility and publicity to try and get something for nothing. What a bunch of whores. 2003-09-23 2:49 pm I would just like to remind you that c# is still a better language than java, since if this was a .NET article you would be whining about how OSnews is a microsoft sycophant and how Java is almost godlike. I guess this message is also directed towards Coocachoo too. 2003-09-23 2:55 pm “Sun cannot compete with Microsoft. Microsoft can push .NET much further than Sun can push Java” J2EE is ALREADY pushed into the enterprise mainstream… M$ need to do the chase, not Sun! 2003-09-23 2:55 pm So I guess that shared source implementation is a 100% opensourced version of their WHOLE .NET framework, including ASP.NET, Winforms, ADO.NET etc etc Please, there is openstandards and there are openstandards, just like there are multiplatform solutions (Microsofts version) and what everyone else considers a multi-platform solution. On one side we have .NET implemented only on Windows, yet, on the otherside we have Java implemented on Solaris SPARC, Solaris x86, Linux x86, Linux Itanium, Windows Itanium, Windows x86 and FreeBSD. Have I missed anything out? One hand hand we have a half openstandardised language and on the other hand we have a language guided by a industry body, JCP, and is implemented on multiple platforms fully and the source is available to all and sundry, fully, as a download. When Microsoft equals SUN/Java, then come back and crow about how great C# is, however until then, please pipe down. 2003-09-23 3:48 pm Oh, please, nobody can say OSnews has a MS bias. They go out of thier way to bash everyone =) That’s why I like it, somedays the zealots get put in thier place, other times they have a field day. It’s not without its bias ofcourse just like everything else but its not a MS/Linux/BSD/Mac fanboy site, we all take our licks. 2003-09-23 4:33 pm Sadly, sunw has become a scummy, underhanded, scox supporting, company; much like msft. McNealy’s new message is now: “buy sun, or scox will sue you.” Sun is dishonest, scitzophrenic, and pathetic. It’s too bad, I used to like sunw. Sun has good hardware and OS. But so does SGI. Companies that center their business around UNIX are going under: scox, sgi, and now sunw. 2003-09-23 5:03 pm You seem confused. This website is not interested in your political rantings and ravings. We don’t care that you hate Sun because of some brainwashed FSF reason or another. We would like to invite you to leave this site and go to #linux on efnet, or slashdot, or comp.os.linux.advocacy, or some other hellhole where your absurd points might be appreciated by fellow 14yo linux users who think anything or anyone who doesn’t think linux – with its freedom-hating GPL license – is wondrous is associated with the Antichrist and Nazis and, gosh, SCO (!). In short. piss off, and take your meanspirited, hysterical nonsense with you, along with your lies. Thank you. 2003-09-23 5:06 pm “It’s not without its bias ofcourse just like everything else but its not a MS/Linux/BSD/Mac fanboy site, we all take our licks.” nobody says OSNews is an MS fanboy site. i am just saying that OSNews is a gnome and mono fanboy site in disguise. (well, isn’t it an incredible coincidence that they are related). –: )))) 2003-09-23 6:04 pm A Free J2EE app server should have been out years ago… Sun tried to keep J2EE proprietary because they had no real competition, now that .NET is out, and is pushing harder than Java ever has, Sun needs to think of a way to counter this. Although they make no money directly from Java, they will lose lots if Microsoft gets bigger in the server market. Java should have been free since 1995, and Microsoft would have never had a chance to bring out .NET, but, better late than never… so I welcome this, hopefully the entire Java architecture including Sun’s VMs could become free, in which case, I can see Java maturing even more, even faster. 2003-09-23 6:18 pm Java should have been free since 1995, and Microsoft would have never had a chance to bring out .NET. I’m no fan of the GPL, Stallman, or FS zealots in general, but “freeing” up java could’ve really helped up java at least on the client. Java is great on the server, but let’s admit it – web app suck(there’s a backlash to web apps with people missing rich clients and the traditional client/server model). Maybe opening up java could’ve fixed Swing before it was too late, but it’s way too late for Java on the client and most future development of MS apps will be done using .NET. 2003-09-23 6:20 pm nobody says OSNews is an MS fanboy site. i am just saying that OSNews is a gnome and mono fanboy site in disguise. (well, isn’t it an incredible coincidence that they are related). –: )))) You show your ignorance once again and basically proved my earlier point. 2003-09-23 6:55 pm I’m getting tired of hearing everyone whine and complain about Sun whenever they do something. Fact 1: Java is an open-standard. There are implementatios of Java by IBM, HP, Sun, and many other companies. If you want an open-source version of Java, Sun isn’t the only provider. Go ask your lovely IBM to opensource it. Otherwise, program it yourself, noone is stopping you. Sun has provided the full specifications. Fact 2: JBoss is a for profit organization that doesn’t adhere to J2EE standards. JBoss is the equivalent of J++. It has a lot of proprietary stuff in it and lacks major important requirements to pass J2EE certification. First of all, I believe since they are a company that strives to make money from the J2EE name, they should pay money for their certification. Second of all, the quality of JBoss is poor and the belief that it adheres to J2EE and can pass is only a myth. If you want a true Open-Source solution, wait for the new project the Apache foundation is working on or Jonas to mature. Now quit with the useless bashing of Sun. Linux developers never asked for UNIX to go open-source and then falsely claim that they adhere to all UNIX standards. 2003-09-23 8:13 pm Let’s assume for a moment that Sun would open source JAva and place it under a license which strictly forbids anyone to use any code from it AT ALL except for bug checking purposes? Companies have no problems of paying for a good product, everything doesn’t have to be free… so I assume that all people here who wanna see J2EE open sourced, surely wouldn’t mind a very strict license. Besides, there are ways to get in touch with source code, just check http://www.beunited.org and you’ll see that Java has made some steps to being ported to BeOS and Sun don’t mind. So where is the problem? 2003-09-23 10:19 pm Croanon, I tried to email you, but your yahoo email is over quota. Clean it up.