A new group, led by Oracle and Sun, seek to link their frameworks in an effort to offer an alternative to Microsoft’s .Net framework and Visual Studio tools.
Java Tool Makers Unite in Battle Against .Net
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Eugenia Loli
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Never mind the two trolls above, I found that this is a great move by the different players within the Java market. If these standards are layed down, it will make developing alot easier.
The only thing I do hope for is that IBM and SUN don’t get into a cat-scratch-match over technologies.
>>.NET is the future and anybody who’s moving towards it for development isn’t going to just turn around and go back to slow Java.<<
Save it.
I am unconvinced by either .NET or Java as a framework to build Web services around. I am not completely convinced that Web services have arrived, either. As a developer who has been on VB 6/ASP for a while, I am looking for a new toolset and I am unimpressed with .NET, which I see as a gambit for Windows lock in, and Java, which is a gambit for Oracle, IBM and others to keep pushing their offerings. I tend to think that Python/PHP is the future. A lot of Python code will work across OSs, it’s easy to work with, and there are GUI frameworks and an IDE that I can use to develop desktop apps. It also supports XML/RPC, so web service-like applications could be written with Python, too.
I’d have to agree with you ChocolateCheeseCake, I believe Java is a very powerful languange, and I’m glad to see Sun working with companies to make it more appealable
I disagree actually. I think both are excellent choices to build Web Services around, and I don’t think you only have to choose one either… Companies will probably use both .NET and Java, and not just one or the other, picking the best from each of them when they need it and what they need it for.
Why limit yourself to just one or the other?
> I am unconvinced by either .NET or Java as a framework to build Web services around…
Just to remind people – some languages are better as some things than others. Use the tool (language) you feel confortable in and believe will suit the needs of the project best. Like many things in life, you can do (implement) it many different ways to attain the same result.
No programming language will be the “silver bullet” for programming. People have to remember that having more programming languages which such a diversity is good because then other languages can implement what one particular language did that it didn’t have.
Software is essential a “dog feed, dog eat” world. You steal ideas from one project to produce a second product that has not been done before.
</rant>
what about Ada 😛
Which IDE for Python?
java can be a very beautiful language and class frameworks. But the java class API world is sooo freaking huge and complicated. Maybe to fight .NET they can try a radically simplified alternative API here and there – like SWT vs. Swing.
And would it help to incorporate some dotnet advances like properties and delegates? As much syntactic interoperabilty between java and c# as possible might help.
I don’t think the answer is in uniting development tools and IDE’s, especially when IBM and Borland don’t want to play because they like their current positions.
Being a Java developer that uses the Netbeans IDE I would have to say that a unifying standard would be welcomed. What Java lacks the most is the ability to build event driven UIs very very (did I say very) fast such as you can with VB. Granted any Java UI builder would be more along the lines of MS C++ (which is not all that user friendly) but if they can marry the best parts of the two then I would have to say this would aide Java developers substantially. For this reason, a solid standard is the first step to getting there.
what about a light fast language that can be used for Java GUIs? why not use somehting like that rather than use pure Java.
And would it help to incorporate some dotnet advances like properties and delegates? As much syntactic interoperabilty between java and c# as possible might help.
I’d like to see a number of dotnet niceties in Java, like custom attributes, which IMHO are far superior to old school rubbish like adapter classes for hooking into IDEs etc. I like the more flexible on-disk structure of .NET applications as well.
A stand not *only* in favor of Java but also against .NET. How many of the listed companies will refuse to support .NET. When it comes to taking a stand against a technology M$ seems to have the b*lls to do it. That is the reason there is no alternative to M$. Create a non-.NET based consortium and let the users choose the one they wish to stick with!
To indicate that an instance property should not be visible in a property inspector, it can be decorated with custom metadata such as the following:
[Browsable(false)]
public string MyProperty
{
get
{
return _myProp;
}
}
This metadata is stored in the final compiled form, and you are free to create your own custom metadata if you wish. (A metadata tag must descend from System.Attribute.)
…All the zealots may not like it, but there’s no denying that Microsoft got this one right.
.Net is well thought out, and just plain works.
I’m sort of a zealot, but I don’t mind a bit that MS did a nice job with dotnet. I’d just like to see the Java honchos make sure Java stays even or better. Might take a little hustle, smart strategizing, and dropping of ego. And people have to admit where c# and dotnet is more modern or well thought out.
Is there some technical reason why Oracle and whoever don’t like the Eclipse platform? If there is, then why don’t they try and address it with the members of Eclipse consortium. IIRC, you can write proprietary plugins for Eclipse, so it’s not like these companies have to open up their tools if they don’t want to.
To me, it sounds like Oracle just wants a bigger say in whatever is going on in the java IDE world. I don’t think Borland or Eclipse has any incentive in joining whatever this is all about. I don’t see this going anywhere. They’ll probably just fumble around for a while, bitch about Microsoft, Eclipse, Borland, IDEA and whoever will do their own things and nothing will ever come out of this.
Note that Borland has a foot in both camps and is doing very well from each. Also note that JBuilder along with the other IDE from Borland have a common toolapi which allows extensions to be easily written. They therefore have no incentive to join the standards group. If they did they have to reengineer their products and that costs money and time.
no way in hell java is going todo well unless those morons can get out some really good tools, tools are everything.
why people use win and .net ? because there are tools out there that make it a thousand times easier using win and .net than competition.
Java is already winning with Eclipse. Eclipse is much better than VS.FAT calamity, and guess what? Its free. For instance, last week, IBM donated its GUI designer for Eclipse. Nuff said, time to surf.
Eclipse and IDEA are very good tools for doing java. But they only do java very well. Eclipse support for c/c++ is mediocre to subpar at best. Linux needs something like Visual Studio to attract developers. Unfortunately too many linux developers have their heads up their asses and think vim and Emacs and their related 70’s technology, such as the horrid mess that is autotools, are the end-all to unix development. The only beacon of hope I see is possibly Kdevelop. It’s been in development for over 5 years now and been completely rewritten so let’s hope they get it right this time.
Croanon, good to see you back with your java sycophany. Too bad that the GUI designer for Eclipse that IBM donated is for the most part meaningless since client-side java development is dead and always will be.
AndrewG: There is a Python development plugin for Eclipse that turns Eclipse into a Python IDE.
I welcome this movement. I use Eclipse and all my collegue’s use IntelliJ. Some plugins I use are great and they don’t have them and visa versa.
This would mean that a commercial plugin developer can simply focus on developing a cool plugin and does not have to make a choice to release it for only a handfull of IDE’s. No porting, write once, run everywhere.
Its not just interoperability that they have to worry about! C# is getting popular, but the entire .NET thing is based around the fact that it is not only C#, but C++/C#/J#/JScript/VB.NET etc
Sun need to port the API to C++ as well as a host of other languages to combat .NET, as well as make their IDE’s interoperate
If they could do that it would rock 
No, they don’t need to port their APIs to other languages. How many people actively use .NET with languages other than C# and VB.NET? C++ programmers generally don’t touch .NET, and people stay well clear of J#. Sun’s effort would be better spent elsewhere, like making their JVM more memory efficient or something.
Java is already winning with Eclipse. Eclipse is much better than VS.FAT calamity,
Why?
and guess what? Its free.
This is a lesser factor for most companies. And there are free .Net tools too, VS.Net is not required for .Net development.
Sun’s effort would be better spent elsewhere, like making their JVM more memory efficient or something.
Sun needs to make a killer app for Java development on Windows, like VS.Net, asap. But I’m afraid now it’s too late though, .Net seems to be filling the void (and it’s indeed a great framework, IMHO)
“No, they don’t need to port their APIs to other languages. How many people actively use .NET with languages other than C# and VB.NET?”
C# most likely will be the most popular language in the future succeeding over C++ and VB but there will be many other languages each of them having their advantages. With VS C++ .NET you can do nice things like mix native with .NET code, build .NET wrappers around native code instead using P/Invoke and many other things. Next VS version will have many improvements here and MS is looking to get all this standardized. VB has a very easy to learn and easy to read syntax and other compilers targeting .NET expected to arrive like Delphi/Phyton/Ruby/Perl will still have the most of their advantages as well as their user base and all the languages gain the interoperability and the very well designed class library with when I’m not wrong about 3000 classes
Sun is hedging on joining the eclipse effort because IBM created “eclipse” to eclipse “Netbeans + SWING”. The eclipse team is thinking of a new name but I actually LIKE the name eclipse.
“Sun’s effort would be better spent elsewhere, like making their JVM more memory efficient or something.”
“Sun’s effort would be better spent elsewhere, like making their JVM more memory efficient or something.”
As a Java application user not a developer – I second that.
To make Java more of a player, make it suck less. Seriously, quit the bickering over standards (nice to see Sun backing off on its ridiculous fight with the JBoss folks), make Eclipse as good for Java as VisualStudio.NET is for C# (it’s got a long way to go; GUI building, integrated language/frameworks help, etc.), etc.
Some of the major Java fanatics should take a serious look at VisualStudio.NET 2003 and C#, and start embracing and extending the really great ideas that Microsoft’s put in there. The .NET Framework is really clean and logical, especially compared to the mess that is the Java API; it looks like it’ll handle versioning in a saner method (not need to install a specific version of .NET with your app, like you do with Java), but we’ll see how that works out in a few years.
Sun could also make Java an actual standard by submitting the language to ISO and ECMA, like MS did with C#.
I like C# and the .NET Framework a lot, despite being quite leery of the whole .NET thing when it was announced… actually using it for a while at work converted me very quickly. I hope Mono and the .GNU Portable Framework get to the point where C# is portable; it’s really quite a good development environment.
– chrish
I’ve been attending a number of seminars on web services and web service security. To be honest it seems like a lot of new languages/technology for a rather small benefit. Can someone give me a few specific things that web services do?
“Unfortunately too many linux developers have their heads up their asses and think vim and Emacs and their related 70’s technology, such as the horrid mess that is autotools, are the end-all to unix development. ”
I guess the “results” don’t speak for themselves.
“Too bad that the GUI designer for Eclipse that IBM donated is for the most part meaningless since client-side java development is dead and always will be.”
I predict that cats and dogs will never live together.
I guess some people don’t care about their reputations. Oh well.
Web services are a way to make method calls on remote objects and services by passing the requests and responses in the form of a specific XML schema, namely SOAP, rather than using some proprietary binary format. In addition, these requests and responses can be made over the standard HTTP port (80) or any port one wishes, which makes access to the web service easier than access to, say, CORBA or DCOM.
By passing SOAP messages, greater encapsulation is achieved, because virtually anything can read text, so it’s not necessary to know whether the service of which you’re making the request is a CORBA object, or a DCOM server, or a simple custom-built socket server written in Ruby, or whatever. In theory this means greater interoperability can be achieved.
Boa Constructor is an IDE for Python that uses the wxPython framework.
http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/
I guess the “results” don’t speak for themselves.
What results do you speak of? A bunch of pre-alpha sourceforge projects worked on junior-high kids after band practice?
I predict that cats and dogs will never live together.
I guess some people don’t care about their reputations. Oh well.
Meaningless babble.
Microsoft has a web service of their MapPoint product. Used it in a project with .NET to calculate distances. Works great really brought home the abilities of web services to me.
Note: I still prefer Java to .NET.