Home > Amiga & AROS > Fortnightly Q&A with Fleecy Moss – Session 20 Fortnightly Q&A with Fleecy Moss – Session 20 Eugenia Loli 2003-09-30 Amiga & AROS 22 Comments Session 20 of the Fortnightly Questions and Answers sessions with Amiga’s Chief Technology Officer Fleecy Moss are now online. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 22 Comments 2003-09-30 6:39 am Is it the level of questions or the manner in which they are answered that causes the result to be essentially content-free? –gary_c 2003-09-30 7:46 am For people interested in the future of AmigaOS the Q&A sessions obviously are, as already 200 questions have been asked and answered. But for someone like you who is part of a rival effort, most likely not. If you think you can ask better questions you are of course free to do so. 2003-09-30 9:40 am Touchy arent we?? What I basically get from the QA is that anything is possible with the Amiga. He just doesnt mention how to implement it. I mean we can dream can we? But reality is a totaly different proposition altogether. 2003-09-30 10:15 am @Bouma > But for someone like you who is part of a rival effort, most > likely not I was wondering how long it would take to you to post AND mention the “rival” effort, but couldn’t even finish wondering and there I see your post, d’oh! I mean, so everyone who is “part of a rival effort” is supposed to NOT like these Q&A sessions for the sole reason of being “part of the rival effort”? Interesting statement, but it would be even more interesting if you backed it up with some kind of reasoning, otherwise it appears as pure trolling. As for the questions&answers: I’ve already said in other places that they’re meaningless (the answers more than the questions, certainly), since what Fleecy says can be expressed in 10% of the space it takes to him and reduced to something like “AmigaOS will be GREAT, except that it won’t be like you know it is now”. Very meanigful, uh? 2003-09-30 10:44 am I remember the massive “this is not news” campaigns by certain “rival groups” on Amiga forums at the beginning of these Q&A’s. The webmaster of Amiga.org at the time had ears for this and even sensored the Q&A’s from the Amiga news. And now is employed by the rival company! Don’t bring such nonsense onto OSNews too please! If the news editors consider this to be newsworthy then why not just respect this? I like the Q&A sessions. Some have more interesting information than others but that is the case with every bit of news. 2003-09-30 11:17 am “For people interested in the future of AmigaOS the Q&A sessions obviously are, as already 200 questions have been asked and answered.” Most often the answears is void of any real information, instead consisting of strange home-cooked hype that doesn’t make sense to anybody familiar with the field. Also Amiga Inc. have nothing to do with the production of the future AOS so why don’t you* have a “Ask Hyperion” column instead? It IMHO would make more sense and be more interresting than being feed hype. “But for someone like you who is part of a rival effort, most likely not. If you think you can ask better questions you are of course free to do so. ” Labeling people as “rival supporters” by you and your ilk as a convenient way to avoid answearing criticism from Amiga and ex. amiga users**… Btw. those that ask these “better questions” never get them answered for some strange reason… [Don’t bother to reply to this post, I seldom read a thread more than once] (* amigaworld.net) (** supporters of the Amiga computer platform, not necessary supporters of Amiga Inc.) 2003-09-30 12:20 pm @ Megol Anyone would need to decide for themselves if they consider these Fleecy Q&A’s interesting enough to read or not. IMO there have been lots of valuable information revealed in various Q&A sessions. Obviously Amiga Inc wants to communicate with the Amiga community as best as they can and vice versa. > Also Amiga Inc. have nothing to do with the production > of the future AOS That’s inaccurate, Amiga Inc developers are developing technology to be used in future AmigaOS releases too. Hyperion is managing the AmigaOS4.0 project, but they are managing the project in compliance with Amiga Inc’s plans. > why don’t you* have a “Ask Hyperion” column instead? Hyperion developers and staff regularly participate in AmigaWorld.net discussions. They have been very informative on many occasions. 2003-09-30 12:27 pm @ Fabio > I mean, so everyone who is “part of a rival effort” is > supposed to NOT like these Q&A sessions for the sole > reason of being “part of the rival effort”? You forgot my mention of the word “likely”. Various well known supporters of two rival AmigaOS-like projects have repeatably voiced against these Q&A sessions. And many Amiga supporters have often replied that they think these sessions are useful. So my suggestion would be to just ignore news not of interest to you and live happily ever after. 2003-09-30 12:44 pm @Bouma > You forgot my mention of the word “likely”. No, I haven’t forgot it, perhaps you forgot your mention of the word “most” coupled with “lilely”, which means that it’s very rare that it DOESN’T happen, whilst is very probable that it DOES happen that whoever prefers the other party finds these Q&A sessions not newsworthy. So, I stand correct. > Various well known supporters of two rival AmigaOS-like > projects have repeatably voiced against these Q&A > sessions. Also various supporters of the other party have voiced against these Q&A sessions. If these Q&A sessions were worth more, be sure everyone would agree on it. You’re simply accusing someone who preferred anothr solution of not being able of objectively judge the newswortiness of a simple Q&A session. Rather than accusing the rest of the world of such things, why don’t you reply to the points they make? That would surely make you look less of a troll and more of an intelligent person who’s able to cope with different opinions than his. For example, I’ve made some points in my post regarding these Q&A sessions, but you completely snipped them and preferred to focus your reply on the bits that were against your behaviour. > And many Amiga supporters have often replied that they > think these sessions are useful. Just like some have said that they think these sessions are not useful. Think of this for a moment: if these Q&A sessions were _objectively_ not useful, that is if the points I and some others have made are proven to be true (you never ever counterargumented on those, so I’m still waiting), that would mean that those who think they are useful are ineed blind followers. Could that be the reason for which you always avoid replying to the points we make? > So my suggestion would be to just ignore news not of > interest to you and live happily ever after. I think everyone is free to express his opinion and share it with everyone, so avoid giving such suggestions. 2003-09-30 12:53 pm “Obviously Amiga Inc wants to communicate with the Amiga community as best as they can and vice versa.” I don’t think this is obvious at all. Most of fleecy’s answers are meaningless or incomprehensible. He seems to have a complete collection of jargon and acronyms that are private to himself. If there is any “Amiga Inc developer” who understands what the plans are for OS 5, maybe he could explain them here. What hardware will it run on? Will it be based on Tao’s technology? Will all current Amiga programs run on it? If not, why not? ” why don’t you* have a “Ask Hyperion” column instead? Hyperion developers and staff regularly participate in AmigaWorld.net discussions. They have been very informative on many occasions.” Also, what the Friedens say makes sense, and they have published articles in the CAM magazine that make sense. 2003-09-30 1:05 pm @ Fabio > If these Q&A sessions were worth more, be sure everyone > would agree on it. Dream on. Nomatter what, in real life there will always be pro and anti-people on any topic. Just take politics or football as an example. > You’re simply accusing someone who preferred anothr > solution of not being able of objectively judge the > newswortiness of a simple Q&A session. No I haven’t stated that. But we know about your and other people’s problems with these Q&A sessions. However you are not really part of AmigaWorld’s target audience. It’s like asking Linux supporters about the value of services provided by Microsoft. > Could that be the reason for which you always avoid > replying to the points we make? There may be many reasons why I consider a reply not to be useful. Especially when people expect me to argue about personal opinions. > I think everyone is free to express his opinion and > share it with everyone, so avoid giving such suggestions. And everyone is free to point out their background and give suggestions to make sure this doesn’t yet again turn into some meaningless (or heated) discussion. 2003-09-30 1:15 pm @ Bouma > > If these Q&A sessions were worth more, be sure everyone > > would agree on it. > Dream on. [*] Mind the above. > Nomatter what, in real life there will always be pro and > anti-people on any topic. Just take politics or football > as an example. Sure, but you can spot them by the way they reason: if the reasonings they make are factual, then they may be right, if the reasonings they make sound more like religious fanaticisms, then they are most likely wrong. Here we’re talking about some people pointing out some *facts*: if you don’t think those are facts, please explain why, or avoid complaining about them at all. > > You’re simply accusing someone who preferred anothr > > solution of not being able of objectively judge the > > newswortiness of a simple Q&A session. > No I haven’t stated that. Did I say you *stated* it? What I’m doing is looking at the end result of your reasoning, and that’s what I see. If you want a proof, look a the piece of your post I marked with [*]: it’s the perfect proof that what I’m saying it’s true. > But we know about your and other people’s problems with > these Q&A sessions. “we” who? I’m not solely talking to you, here, Mike. I might deem appropriate to let OSNews readers know my point of view on this matter, just let me do it. > However you are not really part of AmigaWorld’s target > audience. Oh, I know, the AmigaWorld’s target, as you many times said, is the crowd that silently applauds everything that comes from Amiga Inc. But here we’re not on AWorld, forgot it? > It’s like asking Linux supporters about the value of > services provided by Microsoft. Yes, and so? I’m a Linux supporter, and if you point me out to a valuable Microsoft service I’d certainly not say that it’s unvaluable. See, you did it again, go to point [*] for a reference. > > Could that be the reason for which you always avoid > > replying to the points we make? > There may be many reasons why I consider a reply not to be > useful. Ok, which are they? > Especially when people expect me to argue about personal > opinions. Actually, I deem what I exposed to be factual statements, not opinions, if you don’t agree then please explain why. I’m still waiting. > > I think everyone is free to express his opinion and > > share it with everyone, so avoid giving such > > suggestions. > And everyone is free to point out their background and > give suggestions to make sure this doesn’t yet again turn > into some meaningless (or heated) discussion. It seems like you’re doing all your best to base this discussion on personal opinions rather than on facts. I invite you again to reply to the points I made and that you snipped. Let’s see if something constructive can come out of this. 2003-09-30 1:25 pm “No it isn’t out yet”. The “empty church” analogy is a good one! And Mike, I think you’re associating yourself too closely with the whole Amiga thing… You seem to take any comment that isn’t pro-Amiga as a personal attack (at least your replies seem to indicate that). Rather than just let people air their opinions about the Amiga, you seem to take it upon yourself to try and put a positive spin on everything. You should be able to see others points of view as well. Personally, I feel that anyone who has owned an Amiga (myself included), or who hopes to see OS4, has every reason to be skeptical at this point. Years of missed deadlines, not to mention Fleecy’s endless ramblings (which I feel were very nicely summed up in the post you modded down) add up to unhappy consumers. To try and put a positive spin on everything, or to try and slight everyone who isn’t cheerfully waiting for the release of OS4 only makes the reality of the situation that much more apparent: Amiga has missed deadlines; Amiga has broken promises (Did you get your Tshirt after pre-ordering OS4?); They have (apparently) absconded with money since they haven’t supplied any product to those who have paid; They are releasing no hard facts; And they are bringing down many other promising technologies who unfortunately have ties to the Amiga name (Not just you slighting Amigas “competitors”, but serious hardware companies like Pegasos and Eyetech are kind of in Limbo until Amiga makes a decision one way or the other). Thank God for people who are sick of waiting and are realists about the situation! Such people have created MorphOS, countless emulators, and AROS, to name a few. If these same people had just sat there waiting for the new Amiga OS to be released, the computing world would be without many interesting projects. To have you slighting these people just because they’re realists about the situation only makes your opinions sound shallow and forced. It’s not like the various Amiga owners and incarnations haven’t had over a decade to get it right. People should be able to freely express their opinions, and if their opinions are anti-Amiga at this point, so be it. 2003-09-30 1:35 pm Mike Bouma wrote: > For people interested in the future of AmigaOS the Q&A sessions obviously are, as already 200 questions have been asked and answered. My question related to the nature of the questions and answers, not their quantity. My point is that there’s very little real content in Fleecy Moss’s replies. Actually the first post I wrote, which was immediately modded down, was, I thought, a humorous way of illustrating this. (Apparently the moderators here thought it was too sarcastic; sorry about that.) > But for someone like you who is part of a rival effort, most likely not. If you think you can ask better questions you are of course free to do so. I’m not part of a rival effort in the sense that I think Genesi has to “beat” Amiga, Inc. in a zero-sum game. Neither effort could survive selling only to old Amiga fans; both will have to attract new users and developers to reach profitability. Also since most people familiar with each company have already made up their minds, there’s no point now really in trying to win anyone over. As for asking better questions, it is hard because Fleecy isn’t involved in AOS4 development, AOS5 is too distant to be relevant (note the quality of his answers), and questions about AI’s status as a company (and thus its ability to attract resources and promote development) won’t be answered due to the legal situation and so on. No, I really asked from the standpoint of someone looking at the answers and realizing that, with a few exceptions, *anyone* could have provided them; they are that vague and noncommittal. Part of this is due to the fact that people are asking about the future, and there’s no way to know the future, especially for a company in Amiga, Inc.’s position. — gary_c 2003-09-30 1:41 pm @ Fabio > Sure, but you can spot them by the way they reason: if > the reasonings they make are factual, then they may be > right, if the reasonings they make sound more like > religious fanaticisms, then they are most likely wrong. Personally I always try to be as factual as possible and by adding an “IMO” distinguish between my personal views. Don Cox for example has problems with the fact that the Pegasos is not an Amiga. That is indeed a fact as the Amiga brand and trademarks are owned by Amiga Inc. This ended up into another meaningless discussions like “Amiga is xxxx to me is” (opinion). That’s all good and well, but objectively it’s not an Amiga computer. Similarly the value of the Q&A sessions is purely subjective. > Here we’re talking about some people pointing out some > *facts*: if you don’t think those are facts, please > explain why, or avoid complaining about them at all. What “facts” do you mean? Your opinions? > If you want a proof, look a the piece of your post I > marked with [*]: it’s the perfect proof that what I’m > saying it’s true. And some people think I am being “touchy”. Don’t mind the smiley though. LOL > “we” who? The AmigaWorld staff and Amiga Inc who do the effort of providing Amiga supporters a free service. > Oh, I know, the AmigaWorld’s target, as you many times > said, is the crowd that silently applauds everything No, the people who have a genuine interest in supporting the AmigaOS4 and other Amiga efforts. As for the rest of your post and those of others I don’t have the time to argue any further as I have some other business to attend to. AmigaWorld will continue to provide this service to the community for as long as there are questions and a demand. See ya. 2003-09-30 2:34 pm Not *one* lousy troll has bothered to post something along the lines of “I had one once. Amiga is dead.” The standards of this site’s readership are obviously sinking. 2003-09-30 3:08 pm “Don Cox for example has problems with the fact that the Pegasos is not an Amiga. ” Not particularly. In any case we are not discussing that range of motherboards at all. The question at issue is whether there is any kind of coherent account of the plans for Amiga OS 5 available anywhere. What I have problems with is that AOS 5 may not be an Amiga (as the DE is not). And what is a “reactive presentation agent” exactly? Be precise and give examples. Anyone? Somebody must know. 2003-09-30 3:32 pm Mike Bouma wrote: > But we know about your and other people’s problems with these Q&A sessions. However you are not really part of AmigaWorld’s target audience. This is exactly why I wonder what the reason is for announcing these fortnightly sessions on a regular basis at other web sites. It seems as though by now “AmigaWorld’s target audience” would be aware of them, so there’s really no reason and no one else (by definition, i.e., not in the target audience) cares. One might even be cynical enough to think the announcement is only a way to keep the company name in front of people who’d otherwise not pay attention. Of course, *if* something newsworthy comes out of them, then that would be appropriate to post at OSNews and other news sites. I’d be interested myself to read something from these sessions that was really news. A headline from The New York Times might be something newsworthy to quote; the fact that The New York Times published yet another edition is not and, being a regularly scheduled event, need not be announced once it occurs. Of course, as someone said, the OSNews.com staff can decide what is newsworthy and what isn’t; by the same token, the readers here can decide if they agree or not. That’s how journalism works. — gary_c 2003-09-30 8:16 pm I recently owned an Amiga 1200 w/ OS 3.1, in preparation for owning an AmigaOne, but after waiting… er, a year or two for AmigaOS 4, and it’s “never get here” waiting period, I sold it. I recently sold my Athlon XP 2000+ system for a Power Macintosh G3 B&W/350 and installed MacOS X 10.2.6 on it. To say I’m happy is an understatement… I’m tired of waiting for Amiga anything. It’ll get here when it gets here… if ever. Troll enough for ya’s? 🙂 2003-10-01 12:05 am Actually, I think gary_c largely nailed things. The content of a regularly-scheduled Q and A session may be news. The announcement of the Q and A sessions starting–or ending–is news. But the sole fact that the session has happened again on schedule isn’t. (Although Mr. Moss missing the session without explanation arguably would be.) Having said that, it doesn’t bother me to see these posted here–but I’m not sure they serve much purpose on OSNews other than to provide a space for a fortnightly metadiscussion on the state of the Amiga. 2003-10-01 6:21 am You’ll find several with replies from various people saying ” that guy’s saying nothing” the standard content seems to be, as a reply, either: ” We don’t rule it out, but not in a first release ” ” We find that an exciting concept and will explore it at length ” ” We are working with third-party producers but cannot make any announcement ” ” Yes, Absolutely, Of course, and probably in our first release ( when the third-party manufacturers release the software, there’s a blue moon in the north and Satan’s wearing ice-skates ) “ 2003-10-01 9:28 am Fleecy is full of b.s. I think I’ll rename him to Fluffy. This is the same posturing that I’ve seen from Amiga personnel in the past that just plain irritates me. Always dodging the issue, shrinking from being straitforward or telling it like it is, and running from the competition. Maybe that’s why they have “about $100” in the bank account. Rather than face the financial facts and putting the OS on x86 chips, with a definite eye toward 64-Bit, and the much larger market compared to PPC, they chose the tiny niche path that *also* has little to do with the DESKTOP COMPUTER or SERVER (I keep noticing that they shy away from that model, which is going to be with us for quite some time. People at Amiga, wake up: the core simply changes from 32-Bit to 64-Bit at the Desktop/Server). They left hardware to do just software; except of course they aren’t doing their own software, that’s Hyperion. Their OS was once going to be called the Amiga Digital Environment (DE), but that became nothing more than a glorified Java-type app. Those efforts failed. And this kind of Question and Answer thing comes along, during a lawsuit where sworn testimony is revealing they are in worse shape than Fluffy is indicating here? Please! Isn’t he the Chief Technology Officer (CTO) of Amiga? Why is HE making these statements instead of a proper spokesperson–or Bill McEwen, instead? I think Fluffy should just shut up. It’s not worth hearing unless it’s factual, relevant, informative, and clear.