Richard Seibt, boss of the largest European offerer of Linux operating systems, the Suse Linux AG, expects: “I believe that Apple computers in the future, will run the Linux operating system“. He said so (Google translation) in the “citizens of Berlin newspaper” (Monday issue). Seibt also said that Linux will make it “really big” by the year 2013.
SuSE Linux Boss: Apple with Linux in Ten Years
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Sure Apple would dump a modern and extensible mach-kernel running on a bsd-based system for a monolithic kernel for which it is hard to develop drivers (due to the often changes to the binary interfaces – go and ask nvidia and ati what they think about that).
And sure they will trade their business-friendly bsd-system for a gpl-system that wouldn´t allow them to integrate their aqua and apple-xyz-technologies deep into the system.
Right, so apple will do that for sure, won´t they?
what is going to happen in 2013.
He may be right, that is if the kernel + GNU totally surpasses Darwin/BSD.
After all it is the application layer that makes their UNIX an Apple UNIX.
But then again I don’t think this will happen. But then again I don’t know the future.
😉
Noone is able to predict the future of IT 10 years ahead. Hell, predicting IT 5 years ahead is one hell of a task already. Besides, I don’t see Apple dumping Darwin, which has bright folks working on it and seems to have nice future ahead of it.
My Apple computer runs Linux right now.
How do we know that Apple haven’t ported the Aqua interface to the x86 Darwin kernel in 10 years? Or maybe SkyOS or BeOS or some other more obscure project have taken the whole desktop market???
hey dude i completly agree with first half of your post. Apple will never adopt linux. & about the second half relax don’t get carried away man
Hey, I was just kidding about the soccer thing, I mean, we Dutch don’t really seem to cooperate very well when it comes to that
Forget Dutch soccer, we suck at it…
Anyway, I must agree with the anonymous saying that France has the best distro. As much as I hate to admit it, he is right. France has the best distro, IMHO.
Apple already funded the mklinux project in 1996. They have run linux. Now they play with FreeBSD’s when not playing with os X.
—
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/camino/
“Anyway, I must agree with the anonymous saying that France has the best distro. As much as I hate to admit it, he is right. France has the best distro, IMHO.”
Mdke is the best distro ?
Apple is like Holland Soccer team. Brilliante individuals, but not able to work in team together. The best team in europe is FRENCH, which is very like Linux 🙂
We all know what is happening with Mandrake
Besides, even Belgium won from Holland football team
And to elmo:
Morphix is maintained by a dutch guy.
Dude, there’s one programmer lady sitting right in the cube next to me who’d dump you into a trash bin for saying that women “only” won.
Be careful… tsk, tsk, tsk.
Ha-haaa ! I am faaar away + not afraid of your rampant soccer-chick 🙂
Err.. what I really meant to say + to stay on the SuSE-topic was:
I just spotted the first personal user impressions about SuSE 9, so it seems that you can already get pretty boxes in Germany, though the official release should be 15th, shouldn’t it..? I had a sneak-peak through the book store’s windows across the street this morning because they usually have a huge Linux-pile close to the entrance, but it was still 8.2 only.
We may not even have anything recognizable as a “desktop computer” in ten years.We could be talking to a voice recognition equipped,holographic database that fills the room.
I just wish OpenBeos was ready now, I don’t see government departments and big business making the switch twice and Linux just don’t cut it.
between Mandrake, Redhat, SuSE, the best of these three is Redhat #1
I must be stupid, thinking that Linux is an all-the-world project, a successful case of interplanetary cooperation amongst individuals despite of their nation…
Well, to be honest Mandrake IS NOT FRENCh and SUSE IS NOT GERMAN: It is Spanish, Belgian, German, French, Dutch, American, Brasilian, Argentinian, Mexican…oh, and of course, Finnish…
Sorry – didn’t get the sense of irony there, i suppose i confirmed the german stereotype, no sense of humor (-;
>>Morphix is maintained by a dutch guy.<<
I talked about significant (as in market share, number of users, contributing to the overall linux experience, NOT in terms of quality of the distribution, which i wouldn’t be able to say anything about, as i have not tried it) – isn’t Morphix bases on Knoppix anyway, which is a german distribution which is based on Debian which is … (i dunno american?)
anyway – it doesn’t matter where distris come from.
… i feel a ‘mydistributionisthebest’-war coming on …
BERLIN/NUERNBERG (dpa AFX) – the US computer farmer Apple its …..
So Steve J. has become an apple farmer. Could somebody tell me when he will be selling apple juce?
As for Linux on Macs … don’t think so. OSX is too far advanced to be replaced by Linux. I hope it’ll be the other way round.
Surely Apple are more likely to merge Darwin back into FreeBSD than jump to Linux?
And, on the other matter, as has been pointed out, soccer is a girl’s game. Rugby, now that’s a man’s game. What’s the best rugby game in the world? Oh, gosh, it’s England. I just happen to be English. What a coincidence.
And if we’re going to argue about Linux distributions, remember Linux is originally Finnish. Who’d have thought that someone from east Finland would ever lead a challenge the mighty American corporations.
Ok, I admit it, that’s an arcane joke. Not many people will remember that “east Finland” was cold-war speak for the Soviet Union. But it does give appealing resonance to the popular insult of describing GNU/Linux as communist.
These Linux guys start to sound more and more like Soviet communists who promised communism by the near future. Starting with comrade Lenin almost 100 years ago every communist leader promised the victory of the Communism during the life of the current generation.
We know where Soviet communists ended with their country.
Linux by the year 2003… Linux in the next 3-4 years… Linux by the year 2013…
Let me tell you: less promises, less copying and stealing from capitalist pigs, more hard work and more truth. Then you might succeed.
Hey Someone (IP: —.nv.iinet.net.au), mind to show at least one app killer which will make people to switch? BeOS had the chance but in fact never was deployed in the large numbers. In spite of different merits and such it was not competitive enough (When MS banned dual boot in the same situation were other x86 free OS). In some instances (not all) BeOS was then too early, now it is too late. OpenBeOS has nothing to offer to the governements in contrast to linux or *BSD (if free only is to be considered). Finally this is about some crazy man talking about impredictable future. His opinions are best wishes for linux. Apple plans to take over MS too which in present conditions is impossible but who knows in the following years (although I daubt that it is going to be Apple… even with xgrid). So why not to have a few good laughs?
Oh boy, let’s watch the Apple lover rhetorics to this one
I actually agree with what people in this thread are saying though
And open source OS is an open source OS to me. They’re all good. I’ve tried FreeBSD and it’s solid as a rock. Linux is good. The other BSD’s are good. Darwin is good. Hurd will… umm.. be finished at some stage (hopefully by 2013).. and I’m sure it’ll be good 
I run Linux as my primary OS… but I’m sorry mr SuSE dood, you are smoking crack
>there is absolutely no need for it.
Actually, being able to sinking huge amounts of money into all the R&D, Development, and Q&A to build your own UNIX would be a potential huge cost savings for Apple.
You guys just don’t understand that they could use Linux as their kernel underneath instead of Darwin. It would be pretty trivial I would think.
And there would be no problems with the GPL, their software can remain totally commerical and still run on top of the Linux kernel.
It would be almost exactly like what they have today:
Kernel (Darwin-open source)
+
GUI (closed)
…is pretty much the same as:
Kernel (Linux-open source)
+
GUI (closed)
They could even stick to only their hardware, just distribute OSX on linux on their hardware. Pretty much like they do today with darwin.
This actually makes a lot of sense from a “prediction” standpoint, because Apple will just not be able to keep up with their OS development at the rate that Linux will be improving.
Apple users will soon find themselves running a pretty GUI on an outdated and old OS.
>show at least one app killer
You don’t get it… he’s not saying Apple’s will be running RedHat Linux, hes saying that Apple will run the linux kernel instead of darwin. Ignorant Apple users wouldnt even know the difference between OSX-darwin and OSX-linux.
Whoaaaeyy – excuse me … never did i use any racism or nationalism in my postings, i was merely replying to of ‘Thom Holwerda’ postings saying that ‘germans are talking rubbish’ again and something to do with german football (which was meant ironically, and i did not get and consequently apologized. Never did i make a racist remark or a nationalistic statement (like yourself) about the dutch people.
‘I think that the Duch people can take pride in their history and state.’
well i am sure there is a lot to be proud of … there is however also in german history … not the recent history, that which you so kindly drag out of the gutter and is being done so at every opportune moment, mostly by people who do not understand a lot about it, apart from the snippits they hear from the boullevard press. Little suggestion – take a view history lessons, starting with WW1, might be a good idea for you. (i am not defending the deeds of the 3rd Reich, but one might understand a little bit more of how such a thing could have happened)
‘. Only 50 years ago the Nazis were terrorising europe and murdering millions. A non-democratic , anti-semetic , racist nations is not something that most people would adore.’
by the way it was almost 60 years ago – and no one, and certainly the germans themselves deny the horrors and criminal deeds of the 3rd Reich or even adore it as you imply …
there is enough dirt to stir in other nations and not at least the americans, but hey i am sure it is quiet alright to ‘adore’ a nations imperialistic expansionist aggressive policies …
well enough said.
Wow, you absolutely had to bring that up, didn’t you? Would be too nice to see a discussion about something or someone German where the crimes of my grandfather’s generation don’t pop up. Guess I will be able to see that around the time Hurd becomes stable.
Anyway, don’t take everything that Seibt says literally. I for one think he’s a big blabbermouth and should think before he opens it.
Nadav, NEVER EVER talk about Germany’s past as if today’s genration can do anything about it, don’t make them feel guilty of what happened back then. You must realize that even the generation back then wasn’t 100% guilty, since if it wouldn’t have been Germany, some other country would’ve become like that. And, the Germans have paid enough for what happened in the 30s and 40s.
And certainly don’t speak about MY country in that context– I was only referring to the non-harmful rivalry between the Netherlands and Germany. Luckily the people with brains here realized that.
Shame on you, ignorant piece of …
And by the way, a lot of the stuff that happened in that period were the results of a form of the ‘bystander-effect’, but then on a much grander scale. It’s similair to the fact that people tend to be more helpful when alone than in a group. I know what I’m talking about, I study Psychology.
Oh, and by the way, mod this and his comment down, it’s too off-topic.
My god… The simplicity of some people.
I’m from Holland; isn’t that weird?
My bet is they knew about Linux when designing OS X (duh), considered it along with the alternatives, and chose the alternative. Perhaps they didn’t want the foundation of their system to be GPL. Perhaps they found the tighter-knit communitiy of BSD/Mach/etc more favorable. There are probably technical arguments, too.
Considering that Apple, in spirit, has more in common with the BSDs and that Linux, in spirit, has more in common with Windows (no flames here, GNU/Linux does “embrace and extend” too and has a growing click-n-drool userbase), I do not find Apple’s choices suprising at all.
Besides, do we really and truly want to replace a Windows monoculture with a Linux one?
“Europe is close now to adopting a new state, with new constitution, and absolutly no democracy. ”
How old are you, 9, 10 or maybe 11? your comment shows that you have absolutely no clue about European politics … and this is my last post off topic.
I agree, Seibt is just talking hot air, no one can predict what will happen in 10 years time, linux is gathering momentum though and will be adopted more widely on servers and desktops. However what he means by ‘really big’ … who knows.
not sure if apple will built osx on linux consider the company spends so much effort on the current darwin/bsd system.
apple will surely release osx on ix86 pc as their last resort .
I aggree – apple would not release osx on the ix86 pc hardware – this would totally undermine their own hardware, and i thought that is where their main source of income lies. having said that, how many people would switch from windows to osx, if osx would also run on ix86 machines – especially if pcs come preinstalled with it.
Read the GPL.
If Apple used the linux kernel in their OS, they would have to GPL their proprietary UI as well. FAT CHANCE! Their UI is their major (and perhaps only) selling point. The GPL just isn’t compatible with their business model. That’s why they chose BSD.
Now whether they will keep pace with the Linux snowball, is something else entirely. There is the same question for MS as well.
What happens to either, I could give a rat’s a$$. Its not like MS has made any major innovations of its own. Apple is nice but overpriced. If I had the cash for a G5, I’d build an Opteron system that would blow it out of the water. I’ll take power over ease-of-use anyday.
Just read that little “bit” of “information” and when are we going to see commercial applications being made available? I chose MacOS X because I can have the power of BSD/*NIX and a nice easy to use GUI with access to a large number of available applications.
If Linux wants to get onto the desktop they need to fix the following:
1) A stable drive api so that IHV’s don’t need to recompile their kernel every release or minor update is made. Why should an IHV need to recompile their drivers just so that Red Hat Linux update 2.4.20-18 to 2.4.20-34 can work? I can understand there may be hick-ups along the way as bugs are bashed out of the driver API, but really, should a company need to recompile each release? it is the equivilant of Microsoft expecting that people install new drivers everytime they ship a service pack.
2) Applications. Where are the commercial applications. The average user doesn’t want to be told that they can’t run their favourite application and instead they should try and use some alpha quality piece of software.
The average user wants access to that they’re used to. The average users want *EASY TO USE* photo touch up software, games, greeting card makers, a browser where all their plugins actually work. The end user doesn’t want to be told “oh, you need to compile it using foobah 3.3.3”, media players that allow them to play their DVD movies without the need to jump through 4 hoops just to get it working.
Software needs to be made available by commercial software vendors and it has to be easy to use. Saying, “oh, you need to jump through 5 hoops just to get it working” isn’t going to help.
Remember guys, these are the same people who freak out when they receive a so-called “security alert email” from a so-called “Microsoft”, get confused between right and left click, 128MB MPEGS to their emails and wonder why they keep getting errors from their ISP’s SMTP server, don’t know what a firewall is and fail to update their software; both anti-virus, operating system and any other software running on their computer.
3) Desktop fragmentation. Fix it. One unified HIG needs to be established and maintained. Great, have two graphical toolkits but conform to the same HIG so that the user can have the same, consistant look ‘n feel.
SuSE and Red Hat need to decide what will be their desktop, embrace it, extend it and provide support for the other desktop via the necessary library.
4) Having operating systems spread over 7 CD’s isn’t going to win people over. The distro should concerntrate on pushing their operating system onto two CD’s, One is the operating system and the second CD is development tools.
5) People want STABILITY, both in code and quality. They don’t want to feel that they have to upgrade every 6-12months. Stretch the release cycle out to 2 years and create regular updates in one big batch rather than 100s of little RPM’s.
People want to go, run an small tool and download one big update. A regular update that they can rely on being released once every few months will allow the end user to keep track of what updates they have installed.
6) Consistant directory structure and package management. The end user shouldn’t give a toss whether the piece of software they have download was compiled with GCC 3.2.3 or 3.3 or 3.4 or what ever.
Packages work nicely, MacOS is testimant to it, however, the installation tools currently being used are crumy. They need to be made easier so that even the most techno-challenged can work out that all they need to do is double click, type in the password and click ok.
Uninstall should be that easy and sorry, the Red Hat package manager introduced in Red Hat 9.0 is great, if you install it off the CD, but if you install it from a different source does it appear on the package manager? no.
7) Distros need to start justifying their pricing. You don’t justify pricing buy packing the CD’s to the brim with half-baked, alpha quality applications.
Bundle Accelerate-X and Summit Drivers. This will give the end user the same graphical user experience that a user would expect from any other commercial operating system.
I’m sorry, but how can Red Hat honestly tell me that I should pay $149 for Red Hat Enterprise Workstation 3.0? for that amount I expect ALOT more.
move to KDE on Debian and run WINE. That will solve problems 1,2,3,5,6, & 7
As for #4, the fact that those 7 cd’s contain every piece of software a user could possibly need SHOULD win anyone over. When all is said and done, the Windows user needs an entire CD wallet to install all of the applications necessary for a fully functional desktop.
>>You don’t get it… he’s not saying Apple’s will be running RedHat Linux, hes saying that Apple will run the linux kernel instead of darwin. Ignorant Apple users wouldnt even know the difference between OSX-darwin and OSX-linux.
Now, now…no need to slander Apple users. Users shouldn’t be able to tell what kernel they’re using. Normal people have better things to do that learn what makes their computer work
> Read the GPL.
I’d suggest that _you_ read the GPL. Namely, the GPL that comes with the Kernel.
Here’s a link: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING
The Linux license clarifies the following:
” NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
services by normal system calls – this is merely considered normal use
of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of “derived work”.
Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it.
Linus Torvalds”
So, everyone is perfectly allowed to bundle their proprietary GUI and stuff with the Linux kernel. Of course Apple wouldn’t do that (Darwin is great, after all), and the SuSE guy probably smokes crack.
PS: Shoutz go out to my fellow europeans, who prevented the above nazi flame war. Together we’ll beat godwin’s law!
I dont think Apple will adopt Linux as its primary OS, Darwin and Mac OS X are great but they may offer it as a optionm for their XServes and XGrids, and before I get the usual ” Your Stupid, they have OS X ” Let me say six letters, SUN, SGI, both offer great UNIX based systems, but because of customer demand they provide Linux. I personally think this is the road Apple will have to go if it wants a peice of the Enterprise pie It will have to support and adopt Linux in one way shape or form, if not offer their own distribution then assist someone like SuSE or Terrasoft to make Linux run better on their systems personally i hope its SuSE if they go this route. Linux has penetrated the enterprise space, people want Linux, Apple should not make the same mistake as SUN and not have a Linux strategy in place. Even PPC Linux is getting some more penetration, Terrasoft has two high profile clients for YDL, the US Navy and University of Colorado.
Well, for our german and our neighbor´s peace of mind, let´s hope that the Oranjes kick the shiatsu out of Berti Vogts Scotsmen and we will have back THE CLASSIC: Germany vs. Netherlands.
Remember Ruud spitting at the head of Rudi Völler? That´s soccer, isn´t it? That´s something the guys from the US will never understand…
But back to the Topic:
After having hands on a “Panther” Beta i´m sure that APPLE would NEVER EVER give it away for Linux. Try to integrate something like Exposé in Linux and watch the body count.
>> 2.5 Hollands king is a born German
Claus was a prince, not a king.
darn, too late :/
“Well, for our german and our neighbor´s peace of mind, let´s hope that the Oranjes kick the shiatsu out of Berti Vogts Scotsmen and we will have back THE CLASSIC: Germany vs. Netherlands.”
Ohhh that them there is fighting talk. Shame that I think the shiatsu will get kicked out of my beloved team but hey no need to be so smug about it.
On the topic, if the guy wants to come out and do a Larry Ellison then good for him. It hasn’t really hurt Ellison (“the PC is dead” 1995. ahem) so ho hum?
As to Apple using Linux, I don’t see why they would do that since Linux is aiming to be the windows (ie: open hardware) where Apple control their platform so Mach makes far more sense.
Wistful pondering moment: I’d love to be able to use OSX on x86 hardware. It is such a scrumptious user experience from what I’ve seen. Not a chance in hell of me giving Apple the crazy money they want for their setups though.
Why wait for Apple?!
http://linux.pegasosppc.com/
🙂
R&B
I recon apple do own a linux distro..
Yellowdog.
Now before you shout think about it it is the ONLY OS other than apples own that you can buy preinstalled on a Mac, it has an insanely good support for all new apple hardware and by calling it yellowdog would not detract from sales of osx but still allows apple to venture into linux without the uproar….
Bear in mind this conclusion was reached VERY late at night between me and a couple of mates and probibly has flaws in its logic
…and SURPRISE! Suse will be larger than Microsoft in 2078 …and …and …uhh…
“2.5 Hollands king is a born German”
My friend, we don’t have a king. My queen Beatrice is Dutch, and her husband isn’t King, he is Prince. This is so because a King outranks a Queen, and since Beatrice is first-born, she cannot be outranked
Mind you, all are related to each other 😉
Linux has penetrated the enterprise space, people want Linux, Apple should not make the same mistake as SUN and not have a Linux strategy in place.
I agree completely. But Apple will probably not change their single minded business stance –even though that is their weakness– and keep making their products only for loyal Mac users.
Not so closely related with this topic, but someone wrote about his experience using a Mac in enterprise environment. http://www.osviews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=articl…
I don’t think Apple would ever be willing to adopt Linux from kernel on(not to mention R&D costs for OSX they’ve already spent), but they might give Mac users options to run different WM, including KDE and Gnome on top of Mac BSD. If this happens transition from x86 based Linux to PPC Linux will become more seamless. If this DOES NOT happen, however, Apple’s penetration into the enterprise market won’t be significant. It is unreasonable for any corporation to spend extra time (and $) to train employees to use a new OS after spending some time switching to Linux.
Apple currently has an operating system that combines the best of both worlds and that is superior to Linux. They are going to dump it for Linux? No way.
A far more reasonable projection is that Apple is going to slowly shift away from hardware and move towards software, and they are going to become an OS vendor like Microsoft. The appeal of the Mac is in its software. Not its hardware. Apple will port to x86 and possibly will even start selling x86 machines itself.
I feel ashamed for the lack of cultivation reading many of these posts.
Meanwhile, Europeans are fighting hard to give us:
– Freedom from software patents
– Great free software
– Freedom from domestic and local gun violence
– National services, such as the UK’s NHS, good free education and cheap university education at research-lead institutions
Opposed by the USA, offering us:
– Software patent persecution
– DMCA
– Draconian copyright laws and prosecutions, which makes it more legally acceptable to steal CDs at gunpoint from a local shop than download a single song.
.
.
.
.
– Ad nauseum.
Give it ten years and if things continue as they are, the US will be partitioned in technological terms from the rest of the world. Linux and free systems here, Windows there.
OSS is interesting simply because it develops so much faster than proprietory software and with fewer defects. Ultimately, that means that there is a point of parity where the two products are the same, and then OSS overtakes. We’re at that point now.
In ten years, if the USA does try to rabidly defend proprietory software through force of law, then US companies will be forced to pay licenses for poorer quality software, where the rest of us pay little or nothing for our better software. The US will naturally handicap its own economic future. At the same time, the rest of the world will benefit from increased trade and co-operation through reliable open standards, without the extensive costs of maintaining proprietory barriers.
“Remember Ruud spitting at the head of Rudi Völler? That´s soccer, isn´t it? That´s something the guys from the US will never understand…
”
Well, in that case, let us explain the soccer-phenomenon to our US friends:
“Soccer is a very simple game. It’s 22 people trying to score for 90 minutes, and in the end the Germans always win.”
😛
Windows will adopt a Linux base, to compete with Apple Mac OS X.
someone already posted: Apple=SUN/SGI. I dont think so. It is completely irrelevant as SUN/SGI are workstations/servers with little/no support dor desktop. Apple is desktop OS in spite of Xserve forays into server market. This is naive way of thinkng when comparing SUN/SGI situation to that of Apple.
Anonymous (IP: —.51.222.139.dslextreme.com): I would agree with the comments: it makes no sense at all. Beside Apple UNIX tools are not so compatible with… UNIX tools. Why to through all this hassle? To prove the point?
By Anonymous (IP: —.mn.client2.attbi.com): no Apple does not have the best of both worlds. Apple has to work very hadr to get even close to it.
I would prefer if the U.S. copyright laws changed somewhat, I understand the need to protect intellectual property, but being able to patent any and all ideas, regardless of import is just inane. Greed is the problem behind proprietary systems, but then again OSS is definately going to be for idealists and it will have its own roadblocks.
How much do most people that work on the Linux kernel get paid? Linux kernel development is now heavily funded by companies. I know that Linus and others say that they don’t care who is funding them, I think that subconciously they have to know who is putting meals on their table.
Proprietary software will probably fall behind for a bit before realizing that they will need to increase resources to counter other business entities who are the real power behind OSS now. Sooner or later everything will probably shake out, who comes out on top? Guess we will find out. More than likely the two will stay competitive.
and this guy thinks apple computers will run linux?
he’s smoking crack.
jobs is such a tight-assed dick that I’m surprized that apple computer even run 3rd part software.
Sure Apple would dump a modern and extensible mach-kernel running on a bsd-based system for a monolithic kernel
>>>>>>>
Mach is modern? Are you *joking* me? Mach is the most antiquated kernel still in wide use. Of the widely used kernels today, OS X’s is the oldest. Not design old, but physically old, as in it uses last generation’s algorithms. Its also no longer a microkernel, because the BSD system server is fused to Mach. In the end, all the major OSs today are modular monolithic kernels.
And sure they will trade their business-friendly bsd-system for a gpl-system that wouldn´t allow them to integrate their aqua and apple-xyz-technologies deep into the system.
>>>>>>>>>
Heh. You must not be a programmer. No sane programmer would implement something like Aqua “deep into the system.” Apple got this right where Microsoft didn’t. Aqua has no need to be kernel-level, so its not. Simple as that. Besides, Darwin is already open source. The stuff that Apple puts into the kernel does get put into Darwin as well, no different from if they used Linux. Anything outside the kernel is none of the GPL’s business, so Apple could keep that proprietory, just like they do now.
…won’t work. Too many distros. LOL
Funny you should mention Dutch vs. German soccer; it really is an apt analogy of the Mac vs. PC pissing contest. The Dutch teams are typically studded with brilliant talent and play exciting football but can’t win the big ones. I have fond memories of the amazing “Clockwork Orange” teams of the ’70’s, and I’m still reeling from the fact that they lost the ’74 final to…Germany. Der Mannschaft on the other hand, don’t play football, they work football. It’s unexciting, workmanlike and blah. All they do is win. It took an outside team like the French (Linux?) to dazzle the planet in ’98. I’m a Jamaican Mac user by the way (go Reggae Boyz!), safely separated from European football jihads by a major ocean.
OK, football rant over, back to computing, lest Eugenia finds it necessary to become a sports editor.
I bet in the last two years Apple has sold more OS X licences (bundeled with their Macs) than SuSE their Linux distro. If our German economy stays this weak for a longer time you can say “good bye” to SuSE.
Apple hardware already runs *BSD and Linux and has since before MacOS X was release.
Given Apple is a for profit company my money would be on Apple eventually chucking MACH underpinnings and directly running *BSD due to the BSD vs GNU licensing issues.
I/O tests on the same Apple hardware show much better throughput on pure *BSD than on BSD on Mach.
Now back to your regularly scheduled Euro-sniping and misc chest pounding! B^)
“Meanwhile, Europeans are fighting hard to give us:
– Freedom from software patents
– Great free software
– Freedom from domestic and local gun violence
– National services, such as the UK’s NHS, good free education and cheap university education at research-lead institutions”
Hey Dawnrider – I hate to burst your bubble but Europe just passed some patent laws that are FAR more draconion than what America currently has its just we have big business lobbying with alot more money were you have politicans that don’t listen to the vast majority of the populace.
As to free software – much of the developments TO your free software are because of Americans, and vice versa to our proprietary software. Neither free nor closed is specific to one nationality, nor one territory. America does have a gun problem yes, but Europe sure aint free of that either and much of what you read is media hype anyways.
As to the legal problems in America, we’re working on it. just as Europeans are demanding that we not hold you accountable for the actions of your grandfathers, don’t hold MY generation accountable for the idiocy of our parents. We’re working on it.
Listen to the europeans fighting again. Linux, political correctness, the war. They all play football like girls anyway. And we’re going to win the rugby world cup! Go New Zealand!
Meanwhile, back in the real world
Meanwhile, Europeans are fighting hard to give us:
– Freedom from software patents
– Great free software
– Freedom from domestic and local gun violence
– National services, such as the UK’s NHS, good free education and cheap university education at research-lead institutions
That was sarcasm, right? You do know about the EU patent laws which were recently implemented, right?
With your mention of the great free software and the non-sequiturs about social issues (some of them stupidly wrong, but that’s too off-topic to go into), it’s hard to tell.
a) They’re not through yet.
b) They’re far, far less draconic than the US laws. Instead, the public pressure by over 2 million small and medium sized businesses an several ten thousand individuals has turned this pro-big-business-pro-software-patent thing into a against-software-patents directive. It’s considered a victory against the big lobby machine. The worst thing that can happen now is that the directive is dropped and never becomes law.
It doesn’t make sense, why would Apple drop MacOSX for Linux? Even with Linux’s current momentum I don’t know any MacOSX user that would switch to Linux on Mac hardware.
As far as Apple wanting to save money on R&D. I can understand that but Apple has ALWAYS been an R&D company so I don’t see them switching to Linux so that someone else can do all their R&D.
The BSD license is truly less restrictive than GPL. GPL is not business friendly at all. With BSD you can steal all and give none back or you can share as much or as little as you want. Not true with GPL.
MacOSX as a desktop is already more advanced than Linux as a desktop and I don’t see that changing any time soon especially if Apple keeps releasing a major upgrades every 12 months.
“With BSD you can steal all and give none back or you can share as much or as little as you want.”
It’s not stealing – unless you consider accepting birthday gifts from people you then don’t buy a birthday gift for to be “stealing”.
The authors say “here is some code, do what you like with it, just don’t claim you wrote it”. If you then use that code, it’s not stealing, it’s using the code as the author intended.
As it happens, Apple has contributed quite a lot of code back in the guise of both OpenDarwin and code fixes directly to both FreeBSD and NetBSD.
And, in a vein attempt to get back on topic…
MacOS X is more popular on the desktop than Linux right now, if you believe Google. Which is probably as good a metric as you’ll find.
Apple’s new systems are really nice – I wouldn’t mind one but I’m not willing to pay the current prices when my existing systems are fine for my current needs.
>”I’d suggest that _you_ read the GPL. Namely, the GPL that comes with the Kernel.
Here’s a link: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/COPYING
The Linux license clarifies the following:
” NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
services by normal system calls – this is merely considered normal use
of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of “derived work”.
Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the linux
kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it.
Linus Torvalds”
So, everyone is perfectly allowed to bundle their proprietary GUI and stuff with the Linux kernel”
Yes, but does that cover proprietary kernel modules? wich are more than likely necessary to have a decent proprietary GUI.
I recall not so long ago a SuSE exec was claiming that there are only two kinds of Linux, Red Hat and SuSE. Now they’re claiming world dominance of all platforms according to their Ten Year Plan. SuSE is a good company and they make a good Linux (I was a SuSE user at one time myself) but I have to worry about them if their executives are living this disconnected from reality.
“Windows will adopt a Linux base, to compete with Apple Mac OS X.”
Na. If Microsoft switched to a UNIX base, which is unlikely, they would go with BSD just like Apple did. BSD allows them to link additional layers against the BSD code without having to GPL their new code. Linux wouldn’t let them do that, so there is no way that Microsoft would go with Linux.
But also, there’s not as much incentive for Microsoft to switch as there is for Apple. Apple’s OS 9 technology was so incredibly outdated (it couldn’t even do pre-emptive multitasking, or handle multi-threading correctly), that Apple would have had to pretty much start from scratch. So they decided it was more economical to build on existing technology.
But Apple also gets an added bonus. Much of their software development is now done by unpaid volunteers who work on open source Darwin. So Apple cuts their R&D costs by a significant amount.
That might be one benefit for Microsoft to switch to a partial open source model the way Apple has done. They would cut R&D costs by letting volunteers do some of the work. But at the same time, they could keep critical parts of the OS proprietary so as not to lose their market. (Similar to how Apple has only open sourced the Darwin core, but keeps the Aqua libs and such proprietary.)
But one of the lures of an x86 OS X port is that much of the work has already been done. Darwin already runs on X86 thanks to an army of volunteers. So Apple wouldn’t have to port very much to actually release an X86 port of OS X. (And of course, there is that rumor that just won’t go away that Apple already has the complete OS X running on an x86 box locked in a vault somewhere.)
Enough with the OT Europe vs. The Rest of the World holy war. Now, as far as Apple goes, I think it’s unlikely they would use Linux as a base, although not inconceivable. If Linux really takes off in a mainstream fashion, it could help them if they were to provide binary compatibility with Linux apps. At the same time, they would need to keep binary compatibility with their current system. They wouldn’t get the whole system “for free” because it would take a lot of effort to add those compatibility layers. It would not mean, as some here seem to think, that they would lose the Quartz/Aqua gui. The layperson would never know the difference between OS X with a Linux kernel and OS X with Mach/BSD kernel. And it would not mean they would have to GPL the whole system.
…I’ll be a happy camper, no matter if it’s derived from BSD or Linux.
Until then, it’s Linux and Windows for me.
Im just wondering why Linux people advocate choice yet wish that Linux will wipe out every other OS? Personally I think a Future in wich Mac OS X & Linux have approx 40% of the market each and the rest are the others FreeBSD,Be and oh yes Windows (mabey.)
Apple won’t go with the Linux Kernel either. Remember they built an entirely new Operating System from the ground up. They had plenty of time to consider using the Linux Kernel. I hate to say it but some Linux people need to get this egotistical philosophy out of their heads “If your not using our Linux components then we can find something wrong with your OS.” They even considered NT for the kernel in the first stage of planning, but rejected it. Remember when you have the opportunity Apple had you consider everything and then rule out the unreasonable possibilities. Besides there are already tons of Linux distros that have been ported to PowerPC and work on Macs just fine.
I like Linux, but don’t get too ahead of yourselves. A Linux monopoly could be just as bad as a Microsoft monopoly if you totally forget the past and only look forward to the future.
… how many people cannot seem to grasp these simple ideas:
* If Apple produced an x86 box or OS X for x86 you would not be running it on your cheapass PC. You would still be paying top dollar for high quality Apple hardware, just with a different CPU.
* If Apple switched kernels to Linux it would not mean they’d dump the existing GUI and start selling boxes running X with Gnome or KDE. Linux is a kernel, the UI running on top of it is not the issue here.
blergh
“I think it’s unlikely they would use Linux as a base, although not inconceivable. If Linux really takes off in a mainstream fashion, it could help them if they were to provide binary compatibility with Linux apps.”
OS X already has binary compatibility with Linux apps. Or at least it should. If it doesn’t, it would be child’s play to add it since BSD has a Linux ABI layer. Therefore, Apple has no reason to switch to a Linux base.
“And it would not mean they would have to GPL the whole system.”
True. But they would have to GPL anything that was linked against the kernel itself, or against any of the GNU utilities. I don’t think Apple wants to limit their options that way.
“* If Apple produced an x86 box or OS X for x86 you would not be running it on your cheapass PC. You would still be paying top dollar for high quality Apple hardware, just with a different CPU.”
Why? If Apple ported to x86, I should be able to run OS X on my Dell.
Apple is the one who can’t seem to grasp a simple idea–an idea that Bill Gates has throughly demonstrated: The money is in software NOT hardware. Apple’s salvation is in pre-load agreements with Dell, Gateway, e-machines, Compaq, IBM, and HP. Trust me. None of these companies have relationship of love with Microsoft. They have a relationship of hate that is based on necessity. If Apple gave them an alternative that was viable for the average computer buyer, a lot of them would be interested, if for no other reaon than to screw Microsoft.
Apple’s gold mine is in their superior operating system and getting it out to the masses of computer users, NOT in trying to maintain a monopoly over both the hardware and software.
I’m Suse user, but in the words of my younger contemporaries, I too think the “Suse dood is smoking crack”…Funny, I thought crack was an 80s thing.
Really Americans and Europeans, we shouldn’t be squabbling , especially *Nix people. We all have to be concerned with MS, SCO and other problems…If some of these people get their way, we’ll all have to go to Asia to use Open Source software…
what i really wish one day osx will run on ix86 arch pc.
one desktop system that can really compare with windowsXX on every aspect. after all its the SOFTWARE.
linux on enterprise/server is definitely here to stay but it isnt goin to make it to true desktop system consider the ‘nature’ of itself…
…they would have to GPL anything that was linked against the kernel itself, or against any of the GNU utilities…
No, I’m quite sure the Linux kernel copyright has a clause allowing linking with binary modules. Otherwise, how would Nvidia distribute their proprietary drivers? As for GNU utilities, it’s libraries you link against, not utilities, and most of the GNU libraries are LGPL’ed, which does allow linking against proprietary apps. glibc, for example, is LGPL’ed. If it wasn’t no one could write anything proprietary that runs on your standard Linux system.
It couldn’t be his company’s distribution they would be using because SuSE haven’t updated it for PowerPC for quite some time. It’s still on version 7.3 on PPC and 9.0 for x86.
Linus has made express provisions for binary modules within the kernel. You can have binary kernel drivers as long as you don’t use symbols marked GPL_ONLY. These symbols were added by certain people who licensed their contributions purely under the GPL. By design, such symbols are not critical parts of the driver API.
Besides, you really don’t need kernel modules to have a good GUI. One of the cool things about userspace GUIs (like X11 and Aqua) is that, as far as the kernel is concerned, they are just another program.
Okay guys!
Here is my challenge.
If you hate Linux then send me your distribution CDs free of charge and postage paid.
I have several charity-based and non-for profit businesses that I volunteer time to and they could use them. I am being VERY serious, by-the-way.
My business address is: 908 E. Amazon St., Portales, NM 88130-5526 in the US.
Otherwise, quit fighting over silly crap that we will not be able to solve in a OSNews message forum.
Troy
Why? If Apple ported to x86, I should be able to run OS X on my Dell.
Apple is the one who can’t seem to grasp a simple idea–an idea that Bill Gates has throughly demonstrated: The money is in software NOT hardware. Apple’s salvation is in pre-load agreements with Dell, Gateway, e-machines, Compaq, IBM, and HP. Trust me. None of these companies have relationship of love with Microsoft. They have a relationship of hate that is based on necessity. If Apple gave them an alternative that was viable for the average computer buyer, a lot of them would be interested, if for no other reaon than to screw Microsoft.
Oh, oh, this is good, now the distros have no love for Microsoft. What next, Dell starts selling AMD CPU’s? HP realise that people don’t want some weird ass proprietary BIOS? Please, these companies don’t give a tinkers cuss about Microsoft. Ever last Wintel vendor is a Microsoft sycophant right down to their core.
If an HP consultant was put into room, the *VERY* first thing they would suggest is a machine running Windows, no matter what the job entails. That is your so-called “independent PC industry”.
Also, please tell me who is going to develop all the drivers necessary? do you really think that these third party Microsoft sycophants are going to develop drivers for MacOS for Intel? heck no, they’re more concerned about skipping with Bill and appearing on stage with Balmer at the WinHec conference.
As for Apple’s hardware shipments. They ship the same number of desktop and workstation computers that IBM does per-quarter. For anyone saying that Mac has a pathetic marketshare, why dont you say that to eMachines, IBM and Gateway.
Yeah i agree ive said it since apple kinda went open source. if they truely want a widely developed OS they will switch to linux BSD just isnt as big and wont get as much developement. Linux has draw backs but apple will fix them. a;so whats up with apples deveoper program, chargeing you to help deveope for their OS all the dev versions and dev memberships should be free once they are we will see that apple is serious about the whole open source community
“Please, these companies don’t give a tinkers cuss about Microsoft. Ever last Wintel vendor is a Microsoft sycophant right down to their core.”
No. They aren’t. They were strongarmed by Microsoft, with pre-load agreements that specifically forbade them from loading any non-Microsoft software. There is no love loss between Microsoft and hardware vendors.
“If an HP consultant was put into room, the *VERY* first thing they would suggest is a machine running Windows, no matter what the job entails.”
And you can prove that? I didn’t think so.
“Also, please tell me who is going to develop all the drivers necessary? do you really think that these third party Microsoft sycophants are going to develop drivers for MacOS for Intel”
They are called volunteers. The same people who develop drivers for Linux. And, yes the third party vendors would develop drivers for OS X on x86, just like many of them have done for Linux, and some have even done for FreeBSD.
“They ship the same number of desktop and workstation computers that IBM does per-quarter. For anyone saying that Mac has a pathetic marketshare, why dont you say that to eMachines, IBM and Gateway.”
Your strawman argument holds no water because you are only using one PC manufacturer. In the overall PC to Mac ration, Mac does have a pathetic marketshare. And it is a marketshare that continues to shrink, and shrink, and shrink. And eventually, if Apple doesn’t do something about that, it will shrink to the point where vendors will not longer port software to the Mac because it will not be cost effective.
An x86 port would attract more software vendors, and would also provide nearly 100% source compatibility between x86 and PowerPC.
As things are right now, porting an application from x86 to Mac requires a significant amount of code re-writing.
This the *dumbest* article I’ve read all year, hands down. Pure speculation!
The translation isn’t even very good.
“the license-free operating system Linux.”
Linux has a license, its called the GPL, and its certainly not public domain or license free. Pretty ironic, considering that the existing *BSD layer of OSX *is already* closer to license free than the GPL would ever be…
Richard Seibt is a troll.
I’m already expecting flames, but hey, this was a really bad article. Admit it.
–Tim
“Linux has a license, its called the GPL, and its certainly not public domain or license free. Pretty ironic, considering that the existing *BSD layer of OSX *is already* closer to license free than the GPL would ever be… ”
Shoot, I didn’t realize that this was translated using google groups, my mistake. But still, a really weak article!