After years of backing only one format in the recordable DVD format war, Apple Computer is adding limited support of a rival format into its operating system.
Apple Moves to Support DVD+RW Format on Panther
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Eugenia Loli
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It’s nice to see Apple adding functionality for third parties, but for those with the dual -+ drives, is there any advantage?
Does DVD-R have advantages over DVD+R or vice versa?
Apple has a history of refusing to support ‘popular’ technologies such as PCI, USB etc until forced to by market demands. It is just stupidity to refuse to support very popular technologies like DVD+R or USB2.
Actually, Apple has a history of refusing to support inferior technologies until forced to by market demands. As for USB, the original iMac spearheaded the USB revolution to a great extent. USB2 is nice, but, frankly, not very useful compared to Firewire. DVD+RW is good, though, and that IS one thing Apple should have supported a long time ago.
Actually, Apple has a mixed history. With USB and 802.11, Apple was at the forefront, and actually did a lot to push other PC vendors into supporting the new technology quicker than they would have otherwise. With USB2, DVD+RW and PCI, they were a little behind the curve, for various reasons. With some, like their stubborn attachment to SCSI drives, there was a good reason (performance) but the economics of the marketplace eventually caused them to relent and use IDE as the standard.
Oh, and all Apple hardware that’s been released recently supports USB2
being that until my own G5 comes in I don’t have a DVD burner of any sort I’ve never really followed this issue, what is the difference between the two? This isn’t like the 56K wars is it, where the difference was minimal at best?
http://www.dvdrhelp.com/dvd
This link has an executive summary of the key differences between the formats. The most important (to me) is that DVD-R and DVD-RW has support for a few more players than DVD+R and DVD+RW.
Hopefully you will see my comment before it is moderated down.
Apple persisted with Nubus and ADB long after they were totally obsolete. What about the proprietary comms slot and Apple Modems? How long did it take for Apple to support IDE (yes SCSI was faster but much more expensive).
Being ‘different’ is a pain. The only reason to be different is if you have a vastly better technology. Firewire is vastly better than USB1 but onl marginally better than USB2 and far less widely supported.
Anytroll, thank you for your helpful and very on-topic link to the DVD recorder web site.
Once again I see the evil anti-mac hatered. Your statements about ADB and NuBus are totally incorrect as well as PCI and USB.
for an example, Apple made intels USB popular and put it on before it was even thought of a standard by any other PC maker. This actually helped USB catch on, USB flailed for 2 to 3 years BEFORE the imac.
USB FIREWIRE were in competition to replace serial connections. And if you think the IRQ serial bus was better then the ADB bus think again.
They are for diffrent devices, and both have diffrent uses.
I’m all kind of wondering why you are modding all of Anonytroll’s post…even if you won’t explain it to him, I’d like to know why for future reference lest I meet the same fate
“Once again I see the evil anti-mac hatered. Your statements about ADB and NuBus are totally incorrect as well as PCI and USB.”
Usually anyone who doesn’t uncritically worship Steve Jobs is considered a Mac Hater. I think Mercedes makes great cars. Here in Australia MB models are ludicrously overpriced – it doesn’t make their cars bad, just poor value.
“for an example, Apple made intels USB popular and put it on before it was even thought of a standard by any other PC maker. This actually helped USB catch on, USB flailed for 2 to 3 years BEFORE the imac.”
It is very likely that USB became popular when USB compliant Windows versions became widely distributed by OEMs.
“USB FIREWIRE were in competition to replace serial connections. And if you think the IRQ serial bus was better then the ADB bus think again.”
Well owning pre USB Macs was a total pain – I had five of them. Using a non Apple peripherals, such as inkjet printers, keyboards, mice etc was a nightmare.
I have a 21″ perfectly working RasterOps Mac monitor floating around that I can’t give away because it isn’t PC compatible and there are very few people still using Macs that it will work with.
I have never said the Mac solutions were technically worse (they were often better) just a pain to live with because of compatibilty problems. For example Nubus equipped macs couldn’t use mainstream graphics cards so you were forced to use expensive Apple or Radius cards instead.
DVD-R versus DVD+R: The BIG DEBATE…
is simply not relevant anymore to consumers. both drives are available for rediculously low prices. a drive from NEC that supports both standards can be had for $139
media is dropping for both as well.
and even though it looks like DVD+R will end up more popular…that too is irrelevant.
want to do away with libraries composed of hundreds of individual CDs or DVDs? the formats and technology is on the way.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9632
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9414
For a more technical comparison of the two formats, an article http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/113 sheds some light on the whole format war (hint: the title is “Why DVD+R(W) is superior to DVD-R(W)”). From what I’ve read DVD+RW is the better format technically; as to why read the article.
Some other helpful sites:
http://www.dvdplusrw.org/
http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/
Some choice quotes from linux info page:
The key feature of DVD+RW/+R media is high [spatial] frequency wobbled [pre-]groove with addressing information modulated into it. This makes it possible to resume interrupted [or deliberately suspended] burning process with accuracy high enough for DVD[-ROM] player not to “notice” anything at playback time. Recovery from buffer underrun condition in DVD-RW/-R case in turn is way less accurate procedure…
As already mentioned, DVD+ groove has “addressing information modulated into it,” ADIP (ADress In Pre-groove). This gives you an advantage of writing DVD+RW in truly arbitrary order, even to virgin surface and practically instantly (after ~40 seconds long initial format procedure). In addition, DVD+RW can be conveniently written to with 2KB granularity(***). DVD-RW in turn can only be overwritten in arbitrary order. Meaning that it either has to be completely formatted first (it takes an hour to format 1x media), or initially written to in a sequential manner…
Just wonder.
The price of the DVD-r and the DVD-burner are now accessible, but I wonder for what do you use a DVD burner ?
The CDs are ubiquitous, you can use them everywhere.
If you have data to save, the CD-capacity is usually more than what you need, and if not, just burn 2 or 3 CDs
and that´s all.
The only domain where the DVD can be interesting is video,
but again, with transcode or <whatever software you like
in your favorite OS>, it´s a kid game to compress it,
so that it can fit on a CD.
Everyone want to inform me ?
“Just wonder.
The price of the DVD-r and the DVD-burner are now accessible, but I wonder for what do you use a DVD burner ?
The CDs are ubiquitous, you can use them everywhere.
If you have data to save, the CD-capacity is usually more than what you need, and if not, just burn 2 or 3 CDs
and that´s all.
The only domain where the DVD can be interesting is video,
but again, with transcode or <whatever software you like
in your favorite OS>, it´s a kid game to compress it,
so that it can fit on a CD.
Everyone want to inform me ?”
1. Making backup copies of your favourite DVDs
2. Put a whole linux distro on one disk to save postage
3. Back up your systems files
4. Sending home movies to friends and relatives to watch on their TV
5. Making a ‘party mix’ music dvd – you can fit hundreds of MP3s on a single DVD and play them back through your home theatre system
6 Archiving/sending images – you can fit a huge number of hi-res images on a single DVD
7 Make a monster Knoppix distro with all the stuff that can’t fit on the CD version
the single technical aspect you mentioned(leaving out others) may not be important to very many people, as most ppl go with dvd+r because it’s cheaper. and not because of anything you mentioned.
anyone here write cd data out of order?
didn’t think so.
anyhow the PLUS/MINUS war is irrelevant, but i’m glad to see this topic could still sucker in someone pushing their “favorite”
see several posts earlier then yours as to why it’s irrelevant, and therefore your comment is too.
well…. i have about 50 CDrs lying around between my last 2 employers… DVDr would allow me to store the same data on maybe 8 DVDs…. maybe a little easier to organize and make multiple backups…
(i dont have a dvd-r yet….i do have a slow dvd-ram drive ive used for work and my personal itunes back up…. my 80 or so music CDs filled a dual sided dvd-ram disc)
that Apple has their super drive support writing to both formats. I don’t understand why tehy should support one format over the other.
Apple has a mixed history and is not different than any other company. Nobody dumps on IBM for OS/2 or micro-channel.
FireWire inferior to USB2? In versatility sure but I know your not talking about speed.
Apple supporting additonal formats is a non-issue and not really worth getting your panties all knotted up. They didn’t support it then and now they do, no one died before that so whats the big deal?
Fussing over nothing.
As usual, when Apple moves to do thing that is positive for their users, haters interpret it as something negative.
There is ZERO issue with Apple supporting additional DVD writing formats.
no no, there is nothing wrong with that.
<offtopic>and if the next version of iTunes could support Ogg/Vorbis as a better-MP3-format alongside with their AAC, it would be perfect. (The plugin exist already)
</offtopic>
yeah, I would like VBR MP3s or perhaps VBR AAC. I would also like to see Apple push its AAC format and codec into CD-Players and DVD players so that the players can play AAC files, even encrypted ones.
“for an example, Apple made intels USB popular and put it on before it was even thought of a standard by any other PC maker. This actually helped USB catch on, USB flailed for 2 to 3 years BEFORE the imac.”
It is very likely that USB became popular when USB compliant Windows versions became widely distributed by OEMs.
Basically, every PC motherboard shipped with USB ports for about 2 years before there was an OS that supported them. This actually turned out to be a good thing, since when Windows 98 came out with full USB support, most people already had the ports on their computers. In comparison, the USB iMac came out about 2 months after Windows 98, but put it’s full support behind USB by removing legacy ports and even the floppy drive (bringing about the USB floppy drive, which many iMac owners bought but rarely (if ever) used).
I think that USB benefitted greatly by the 3-prong push that came along in mid-to-late-98 from Intel, Microsoft, and Apple all supporting the devices and encouraging device manufacturers to support USB. The additional benefit of hardware being able to support both Apple and Microsoft operating systems also reduced costs for some manufacturers (that were building devices for both platforms), and increased the diversity of devices available for Apple’s platform. Intel pushed very hard for USB to be on every motherboard for years with no operating system support, and this really helped on the x86 side, where the OS developer rarely has any control of the platform. That being said, I think Microsoft was a bit slow to come around, as they released a USB-enabled version of Windows 95 under which no devices actually worked, but then released tons of USB devices that only worked under Windows 98 when they finally released that OS to try to use the hardware to push the platform forward.
As for the whole purpose of this article in the first place: I’m glad to see Apple come around to supporting another DVD writing standard, but I really doubt it matters to a great deal of Apple’s users. It’s important to remember, though, that Apple should be supporting as many of these types of standards as possible, as they have almost complete control over their customers’ environment (barring their customers installing a different OS on their hardware, or deciding to stop buying Apple’s hardware and/or software).
Plain and simple stop being a hater and dissing macs when you havent researched it. Macs pretty much made stuff like 802.11 and usb, and many others. Macs get it you guys complain and say its inferior or not needed because you cant have it yet. it catches on on the PC side you guyes get it. Then you go on forums and lie and make bogus arguments saying macs suck, its a visious cycle
Writable CDs looked like the answer to all my backup needs when first introduced, but frankly they are undersized. I have single files on this PC which wouldn’t fit on a CD ( DivX video ) and more than 4 CD-fulls of Mp3 as well
At work, a DVD writer lets me back up a whole windows server onto a single disk. I doubt we’ll need to go beyond the capacity of DVD-R for quite some years to come.
<<<There is ZERO issue with Apple supporting additional DVD writing formats.>>>
I agree wholeheartedly… there is nothing wrong with Apple adding DVD+R and DVD+RW compatibility. As long as there are no problems with the implementation, the addition can only benefit Mac users.
However, I would strenuously object if Apple marketing and naive Mac users eventually spun this improvement into the claim: “Apple invented DVDs in computers!”
DVD-R or DVD+R, both ofers only 4.7 Gigs of space, wait for BlueRays with 27 Gigs of space to fill.
“At work, a DVD writer lets me back up a whole windows server onto a single disk. I doubt we’ll need to go beyond the capacity of DVD-R for quite some years to come.”
This sound like Bill Gate saying that 640K is enough…
With almost 12 Gigs of MP3, CD-R with 700 Megs are not enough.
Plain and simple stop being a hater and dissing macs when you havent researched it.
Do some research on your own instead of swallowing what others say. Most of the people here aren’t even ‘dissing’ macs in the first place.
Macs pretty much made stuff like 802.11 and usb, and many others.
Apple had a great deal to do with the development of 802.11 wireless standards and 1394 (Firewire), but very little to do with USB. USB was created by Intel and the USB Implementer’s Forum (of which Apple is a member) was created in 1995, 3 years before the release of Windows 98 and the first USB iMac. Windows 98 was released in June of 98, and that iMac was released in August of the same year. Intel chipsets had been shipping since 1995/96 with USB ports, so most x86 computers had them but couldn’t utilize them until Windows 98 was released. Every major PC OEM and motherboard manufacturer incorporated USB ports in their computers long before a single Mac shipped with them. At the same time, when a Mac shipped with a USB port, it was supported and worked properly. When an x86 PC shipped with a USB port, the OS didn’t support it for almost 3 years. The difference has everything to do with the type of platform that you get on each side. Apple controls the hardware and the software, while Intel only controls so much of the hardware and (almost) none of the software, and Microsoft only controls so much of the software and (almost) none of the hardware.
Macs get it you guys complain and say its inferior or not needed because you cant have it yet. it catches on on the PC side you guyes get it. Then you go on forums and lie and make bogus arguments saying macs suck, its a visious cycle
Sure, I’m just making it up. I guess now we’re supposed to believe that Apple’s had this DVD+RW support for years and we’re just jealous, or that Apple invented the USB port, or that the iMac was available before Windows 98. I need a DVD writer like I need a hole in my head at the moment, but when I do get one I want it to support as many write and re-write formats as possible, just like I need 802.11 and 1394, and would prefer them to work well with my hardware when I do decide that I need them. Oh, wait, I already have 1394 on my sound card, I just don’t use it, kindof like I already have USB2 but only use USB1.1 devices. When I need this stuff, it’ll all still be there, and if I have to add 802.11a/b/g wireless access for some reason, at least I’ll know that I haven’t been paying for it all along.
I was a 100% windows Zealot back then (thank god I grew up). but I recall not being able to build a PC with USB in it until mid year 1998.
maybe it was because I was just cheap, but I did not have any USB ports until then.
I recall I got them because my buddy told me that USB mice are more accurate so they would help in Quake 2.
I was a 100% windows Zealot back then (thank god I grew up). but I recall not being able to build a PC with USB in it until mid year 1998.
Did you build a PC at all between 1995 and 1998? Are you sure there were no USB ports rather than there just not being any support for them? (mid-98 being the time at which Windows 98 was released means the latter makes sense).
I spent my first year in college in 1996/97, and everyone with recent PCs had USB ports on them, which I remember distinctly because they always showed up as question marks in the device manager.
On the other hand, it was unlikely that you could find a USB addon card for an x86 PC before mid-98 because there was no OS support for anything connected to the ports.
I recall I got them because my buddy told me that USB mice are more accurate so they would help in Quake 2.
Yes, a lot of people were overclocking their PS2 ports around this time, too. That being said, we weren’t playing Quake 2 during that first year of college, it came out shortly after that
Most of us were playing Quake, Duke3D, WarCraft 2, C&C, and, towards the 2nd semester, Diablo. I also have a very large number of USB->PS2 converters from 98/99, because most of the trackballs I owned came with them (and I used them, too, because Windows 98 wouldn’t install properly on my machine most of the time unless I took every PCI card out and installed them one by one after Windows was installed).
it might have been GL quake then….all I know is that I got my first 3d accelerated GFX card that year as well…my friend thought I was nuts to not just get a daughter card 🙂
man duke3d was awesome 🙂 I use to call my buddy up on my modem to play Duke3d and warcraft 2 🙂
After years of backing only one format in the recordable DVD format war, Apple Computer is adding limited support of a rival format into its operating system.
well, let’s not forget the ill-fated DVD-RAM drives Apple sold with their flagship 1st generation G4s in 1999-2000
Yep us mac users are like the smart kids in school always dissed and made fun of for thinking diffrent, but we know we are smarter and more productive so we just ignore you.
And the most financially well off…