Home > Windows > Poll: Your Thoughts on Windows Longhorn Poll: Your Thoughts on Windows Longhorn Eugenia Loli 2003-11-02 Windows 86 Comments In the past week a lot of discussion was around Windows Longhorn, as Microsoft revealed their upcoming OS to their developer’s conference, officially presenting many new features.Note: The poll is now closed, thank you for voting. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 86 Comments 2003-11-02 8:16 am Anonymous The graphics system definitely sounds like a good idea. I’ve long noticed how much cooler graphics are in video games than on the computer. 2003-11-02 8:20 am Anonymous I think Longhorn looks REEEEEEEAlly bad. But I thought the same about XP. Maybe it has to grow on you, but I use Fedora mostly now, and the styles are addictive. 2003-11-02 8:35 am Anonymous I don’t know. I definitely think Longhorn will do a lot for Windows-based computing (although I use GNU/*/Linux as my main OS, I do not make any pipe dreams as to its coming dominance on any desktop). This seems like what the NT switch should have been: a complete break with the past. Apple had to do it; now it’s Microsoft’s turn. I do feel that Aero rhymes with Cairo for a reason, and that it will be as great a change as W3.1>W95 was. Incidentally, I use the sidebar technique on my own KDE desktop; it’s not nearly as horrible as it seems at first, and it has the effect of compressing elements that take up too much space. However, I think that Longhorn is being hyped too much, too early. With a release date of 2005-2006, it seems like Microsoft is stacking the deck in its own favor by using as-yet-unreleased features as trump cards. I wish this wouldn’t happen; it’s the newswire equivalent of spamming. 2003-11-02 8:36 am Anonymous Actually, computers always have been, and always will be far more powerful graphicly then any video game console. If you really think video game graphics are better then computer game graphics, Im afraid you either don’t have very good gaming computer, don’t know what games to buy, or just don’t know how to configure things properly. The lesser graphics are the primary reason I left console gaming behind a long time ago. 2003-11-02 8:37 am Anonymous > I’ve long noticed how much cooler graphics are in > video games than on the computer. You should have put those lines between sarcastic tags! LOL 2003-11-02 8:38 am Anonymous Why do we have “Innovative and powerful” but then “garbage as all Windows are”? Why not “Innovative and powerfull as all Windows are” and “Mainly Garbage”? It seems pretty stupid to me and makes it seem like the people who think this version of Windows won’t be as good as say win2k just hate Microsoft and Windows, while the people who vote for innovative and powerfull are not the opposing zealots that the antilonghorn people are. Also, I really don’t see how anyone could have much of an opinion on what longhorn is going to be, being that anytime anyone says the ui looks like crap someone retorts with, “well it’s not the final ui”. That’s perfectly valid, I think, but to say “It will be innovative and powerfull”, I also think deserves a little dose of, “it’s not the final product”. The other thing that kind of bothers me here is that I don’t believe this OS is meant to be any more innovative or powerfull than any other microsoft OS. Seems to me that all the ideas of it are hardly innovative(like anything in the software industry is), and even those things that could be considered semi-innovative don’t make the OS more powerfull as far as I can tell. I think an option on the list should be, “Will it be the same old windows, with some new features and some more eye candy that still has problems, but 90% of people will still want it on their computers.” I’m pretty sure most people would probably agree with this. 2003-11-02 8:42 am Anonymous Everytime we put polls up, people will just want their own options. Personally, I find Longhorn very promising (and I am the person who put up the poll, so you don’t have to create conspiracy theories). I find Longhorn both innovative and powerful. Its UI sucks currently, but I am sure that MS will replace it for the final version. 2003-11-02 9:02 am Anonymous Unless they make Longhorn secure by default (dont have 30 unneeded ports open) then i dont give a s..t what MS does. 2003-11-02 9:06 am Anonymous Whether Longhorn is good or not will depend on a lot of things. Microsoft is going into dangerous territory with a filesystem that will use up way more system resources and a display engine that will use up a ton as well. Apple’s had years under their belt to make their 3rd generation display model with tons of real life experience. Will Microsoft’s first try be as successful? Will consumers lash out at Longhorn calling it slow without realizing how much power is necessary for a 3G display model? Will Linux gain from its perceived speed superiority because of the lag created by the 3G display model of Longhorn? Will people want the 3G display model so much that it puts the nails in Linux’s coffin? The biggest thing is whether the computing power will be able to handle the new display engine without loosing a step or whether people are going to notice delays. This is the challenge of Longhorn. 2003-11-02 9:11 am Anonymous I need to have a certain amount of direct hands-on experience with a product or platform before I really get a solid idea about how good or bad it is, at least in my context. Regardless of the design, a good product *implementation* is also important (at least to me), and that sort of thing isn’t always as easy to do as writing a bunch of design documents (or a bunch of preemptive press releases). Just look at Windows 95 (aka “Chicago”) for a prime example. When the Longhorn platform is actually released, I suspect the opinions posted here will become a lot more meaningful, since they will be based on actual code and not someone’s set of pre-alpha design specs. 🙂 2003-11-02 9:20 am Anonymous I had the pleasure to test Windows Longhorn PDC Build. It looks impressive, but it consumed resources… It run 50 processes and allocates 400 MB of RAM… And that after the boot process. Well I suppose this won’t be a problem in 2 years. 2003-11-02 9:35 am Anonymous I think it’s gonna be a strange couple of years to come…m$ have given many open source projects a lot of time to win over new users/companies while they work on LH… I’m partial to linux currently, and I tried the longhorn beta for a few days but it just didn’t have the staying power to remain on the old harddrive It seems a little sloppy (strange crashes, pausing/load times) but I guess that’s why it’s just a beta Either way, for OS enthusiasts things are looking interesting again! 2003-11-02 9:52 am Anonymous Do you have any idea how big microsoft is compared to apple? As far as technical stuff goes, I’d be willing to bet m$ has had something equivalent to OSX before Aqua was even announced. The problem is M$’s massive market share keeps them from releasing something that is going to alienate 80% of their users. Hell, even 2 years from now, Longhorn is still going to provide tiers of display quality. I doubt when Longhorn finally gets released it will represent the “first-try” at a hardware-accelerated desktop. Also, it seems like the new desktop is nothing compared to the new APIs and new filesystem, I’m suprised how good that stuff sounds. 2003-11-02 10:28 am Anonymous I have used Longhorn builds 4015, 4029 and now the PDC build and in my opinion, the Plex theme used in the earlier builds is far more attractive than a “grey/brown luna with small buttons” that is Slate. I was unable to vote because there are not enough options; Yes, I think Longhorn has some nice new features it does have a massive amount of “garbage” attached with it. Longhorn’s Aero is percieved by many to be a radically different 3d user interface – err.. not quite. All it is is the exact same 3d desktop compositing that has been going on in Mac OS X since version 10.2. A lot of people are comparing Longhorn to Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther) and saying that longhorn will far surpass it. That may be true, but Longhorn is slated for a 2006 release. That leaves 3 version upgrades of Mac OS X. That’s like comparing Longhorn to Windows NT 4 or Windows 98 (counting back three versions of each line). 2003-11-02 10:30 am Anonymous I’ve been waiting for MS to explain what a UAE (Unexplained Application Error) is since 1991. They said they’d get back to me. Rather than writing (another) OS, a more worthy goal for Microsoft would be to take a year off and take some courses on ethics. Oh!, and then actually use them in practice. They have some money in the bank and could do it. Microsoft please give us back that warm and fuzzy feeling. Peace, Jerry 2003-11-02 10:57 am Anonymous personally i don’t see anything innovative in the upcoming longhorn, they are basicly just re-inventing the weel yet again, they claim they have invented XAML, which is basicly XUL, they claim they have invented WinFS, which has been around in various forms on various operating systems (most famous one is AS/4000) Only thing i can consider innovative is the 3D desktop (although i consider it useless but thats just me) which atleast i don’t know that has been used anywhere else. Thus the lacking option is ‘Not really innovative, but interesting’ 2003-11-02 10:57 am Anonymous I think what is really interesting is that Microsoft is taking a huge leap to Longhorn. Windows XP compared to Windows2k isn’t that big of a difference really. So the big question is now that Linux is getting closer to the XP level, will they get there before Longhorn get’s released? If not, then I guess the Linux developing community will have another 3 years of cloning before they start saying “we’re almost there” again. Anyway, I think Microsoft is doing some brave stuff with Longhorn even though I don’t necessarily like them… I think we will see a desktop OS wars just when Longhorn is about to get released… that’ll be the moment of truth indeed… 2003-11-02 11:03 am Anonymous Come on guys, its the same old story…They are selling old technologies with a brand new name…The only innovative thing (at least announced, we havent seen it yet) is the unification of digital media…For example Mobile, Laptops, Digital Cameras, PDAs all recognized automatically and handled accordingly…Now that could be nice but its only talk by now. How many of you would like to grab a window and as you move it around you want it to act like it has innertia or it is a piece of metal deformating as draged. And its the same old talk again and again…”By the time Windows Longhorn are released they will need far more powerfull computers than the average power of todays systems”…I think we have heard that again. Fortunately the power is in the perimeter and we will have the chance to see some real innovation from the outsiders. 2003-11-02 11:06 am Anonymous Well, I’ll be using longhorn, but i’ll be thinking of linux. 2003-11-02 11:06 am Anonymous Longhorn looks like it’s trying to be too many things. This ofcourse is no accident, Microsoft’s strategy requires it. I just wonder if an OS really should try to do this, rather than be as minimalist as possible, giving the user the options to install what they want, how they want, not what they don’t want and what may cause *unecessary* problems for them. But that’s once again, Microsoft strategy. If they didn’t bundle all those junk apps and bloat, they would not be able to control the world’s standards. Even though Microsoft is in a losing battle, Windows is not going to go away for a long time, and a great many people are going to have to deal with the problems it will cause. But you can’t just blame Microsoft, all the companies that have a chance to do something about it now can’t seem to get their act together. While that continues, Microsoft could start selling whatever junk they want, most people will still have to buy it. 2003-11-02 11:06 am Anonymous You would think that the $-driven folks at Redmond would have learned their lesson by now as far as integrating the OS and UI is is concerned. I’m sorry to disappoint you. I really do NOT care what they put in Longhorn, but I just want to have the GUI and OS separated: This is the worst thing of Windows in my opinion because it renders the system inherently insecure. Really, doing that would have been “innovative”. Please, be honest, those silly and rather trivial graphical gizmos of “Aero” on your screen can hardly be called “innovative”. If one designs an anti-matter engine then I would say, “Geez, that’s innovative!”, but silly toolbars are not even close to the level of sophistication that could possibly be ever called “innovative”. The problem is that consumers have come accustomed to buggy and insecure software over all these years. Buggy and insecure software is now a standard, something that belongs to computers and software. It’s a real tragedy. There are so many better solutions out there and Longhorn will NOT improve its track record on Security or Trusted Computing guaranteed. Longhorn it’s just another release of a Goliath, but let me remind you: “David cut off his (Goliath) head (1 Sam. 17:51) and brought it to Jerusalem…” 2003-11-02 11:11 am Anonymous The problem is that they refuse to start from scratch see what a mess they made out of Windows. It IS a garbage. All they do is produce loads of work arounds to avoid these problems Windows is suffering from. Now Windows Longhorn is again one big workaround for the problems of Windows XP. There arent much innovative things introduced like the SQL filesystem. I can assure you that this stupid “not having to reboot” feature wont work that nice and will cause a lot of shitty problems and inconsistency in the system. so i voted for garbage… 2003-11-02 11:22 am Anonymous > I do feel that Aero rhymes with Cairo for a reason … hmmm, still trying to figure this one out 2003-11-02 11:32 am Anonymous most of the proposed longhorn technologies sound quite powerfull. there’re quite many things windows actually really needs (like the new command shell or WinFS). I actually like that the whole GUI will be vector-based, that’s a good idea though the implementation probably eats raw cpu power. however, in the end it depends on the realisation on the MS side. browsers are good too while the internet explorer is an ugly piece of junk. i do think that longhorn will be a huge step forward, though i won’t probably install it. after 14 years of actively using microsoft operating systems (starting with dos) i am fed up with their style of handling problems especially their information policy. i bough myself a small iBook in order to try MacOSX and i really like it. i’d love to use linux but it lacks support for Cubase & Reason (which i need). I really love OSX, it’s very usable and a joy to use. i’ll probably buy a G5 by the mid of next year. i’m looking forward to see how OSX will be by the time when Longhorn arrives. the only thing i’d love to see would be a meta-data enabled file-system like WinFS. everything else is actually already avaible in OSX. (note to the linux zealots: using grep/locate/cat/cpio/ln on the shell in order to add additional information to folders and in order to query for files is not the same, it’s acutally quite different) It would probably best if Apple would implement Gnome Storage, evolve it and give the additions back to the OS community, just as they did with Safari/Konqueror->KHTML. 2003-11-02 11:33 am Anonymous Everybody talk about the GUI, display engine or the file system, but what about Palladium? AFAIK, the “secure computing” technology should (may) be introduced within Longhorn in which case it has to be considered as the main new “feature” of Longhorn IMHO. 2003-11-02 11:44 am Anonymous maybe when they sell it at around $50. and i get a new computer. then i’ll buy it. i can’t give my opinion based simply on screenshots, and what people write about it. to be honest, i think microsoft has done everything they can with the desktop. heck, they probably integrated everything they can think of or see as a possible future revenue generator (media player, msn messenger, IE). i would prefer they simply improve win2k, make it faster, support more filesystems, etc, without the added fluff. 2003-11-02 11:53 am Anonymous I haven’t even bothered downloading any beta versions because there’s just far too many other OS’s to mess about with and it’s far too alpha. So I don’t really care and it’s too early to tell. I’m busy downloading SuSe 9.0 to give that a shot right now (currently running redhat 9.0 and win2k) 2003-11-02 12:01 pm Anonymous My initial impression is that despite the apparent attempts to emulate Apple’s OSX in the Longhorn interface, Microsoft are doing this exactly wrong Apple made a great OS by concentrating on the things it doesn’t do – Mac OS has always been a stripped down, simple environment with a logical, simple, control method. Longhorn at every stage of its development gains MORE things to do and hence to configure – DRM, Database FS, .NET framework, built in browser extensions, built in media player, two taskbars now insterad of just one This is just plain wrong. The OS shouldn’t do everything on a PC, it should provide a framework for the user to interface with applications. I think this may be a lesson Microsoft has yet to learn, despite the fact that with Win98 in that respect they got it right A folder for documents, subfolders for music and pictures. Very little supplied with the OS they should just concentrate on making it safe and reliable. 2003-11-02 12:07 pm Anonymous [this didnt seem to post first time – apologies if it now comes out twice] My initial impression is that despite the apparent attempts to emulate Apple’s OSX in the Longhorn interface, Microsoft are doing this exactly wrong Apple made a great OS by concentrating on the things it doesn’t do – Mac OS has always been a stripped down, simple environment with a logical, simple, control method. Longhorn at every stage of its development gains MORE things to do and hence to configure – DRM, Database FS, .NET framework, built in browser extensions, built in media player, two taskbars now insterad of just one This is just plain wrong. The OS shouldn’t do everything on a PC, it should provide a framework for the user to interface with applications. I think this may be a lesson Microsoft has yet to learn, despite the fact that with Win98 in that respect they got it right A folder for documents, subfolders for music and pictures. Very little supplied with the OS they should just concentrate on making it safe and reliable. 2003-11-02 12:10 pm Anonymous Too early to judge …. let’s wait and see (2005-2006?) Promising? Well, MS is not really famous for keeping promises, but than again, who knows? As far as i am concerned i won’t have sleeples nights waiting for Longhorn. 2003-11-02 12:16 pm Anonymous Apple’s had years under their belt to make their 3rd generation display model with tons of real life experience. Will Microsoft’s first try be as successful? Will consumers lash out at Longhorn calling it slow without realizing how much power is necessary for a 3G display model? To be honest, I think we have the power already today. Microsoft’s DirectX is quite powerful and many graphics cards support it. Could the animated effects in Longhorn be handled by a powerful graphics card today? Based on what I’ve seen purely from the demo videos of Longhorn, it seems quite possible. Besides, in 2/3 years time, what’s considered high-end today will probably be entry-level by then. 2003-11-02 12:31 pm Anonymous I’ using and trying out Longhorn 4051 and beleive it or not it’s quite stable for an alpha release. Although it is annoying slow to boot up, most of the features work well. IE finally has a pop-up blocker built in, and most third party apps are installing, i.e.-Mozilla, iTunes,Flash,etc. Networking is broken, but the fix is on the web. 2003-11-02 12:59 pm Anonymous I think Longhorn will be a good OS. No OS is perfect and im sure it will have its problems just like Mac and Linux have their problems but I hope Microsoft tries hard to get it right this time around. 2003-11-02 1:05 pm Anonymous Because of all the things I read about Longhorn, how it will be optimized for 16:9 display (widescreen) and the fact that it will need high resolution display for all the effect to be nice and cool… This is sad, I have a new NEC LCD 1920NX, it’s not widescreen and I allready know that it won’t be enough to run the next Microsoft OS… In fact, I’m starting to feel that nothing in my computer will be enough for Longhorn. For all those cool effect, you will need the best videocard for 3D, and it’s going to be a PCI Express card, so you will need a new motherboard and so on…. 2003-11-02 1:09 pm Anonymous I decided that Windows 2000 Pro would be the last Microsoft OS I used at home. I have successfully resisted upgrading to Windows XP, and I’m sure I will do the same for whatever Longhorn is eventually named. There are so many excellent operating systems out there that you are no longer confined to Microsoft’s offerings, take it or leave it. For those of you that like Windows, that’s fine too. Contrary to Microsoft’s belief, there is room in this world for all of the OS’s out there. 2003-11-02 1:29 pm Anonymous At the moment I could care less about longhorn. Its JUST a dev release, kinda like Rhapsody with OS X. Now take a look at where Rhapsody was and where the actual 10.0 release os X was. Many differences between the two. This will change until that comes out so I am not paying THAT much attention on longhorn now. were I am MS developer, I would care more cause I could also play with longhorn, but at this point in time I can just gaze at it from screenshots and I can really play with it to develop an informed opinion 2003-11-02 1:33 pm Anonymous I am interested, it looks very promising, but it is too early to say much. Microsoft also seems to often change its mind about aspects of the OS…they’ll suddenly announce they’re scapping some feature or part that was originally in the plan and that type of thing. So, who knows what it will end up being in the end? 2003-11-02 1:50 pm Anonymous d/l build 4051, installed it into vmware, saw that it is xp with a new theme and to much useless helper symbols/apps, used it for 4 hours – and moved into trash. that’s my experience with longhorn. it’s not worth to use it a minute longer because i think about xp the same. only windows 2000 was the right way. it was… but it’s nice to see and use the way of linux plus kde 3.1/3.2 as a desktop system because my kde looks and feels like windows 2000 🙂 2003-11-02 1:57 pm Anonymous Sorry for being offtopic, but did anybody notice that this is the 5000th article on OSNews? Congratulations to Eugenia and the OSNews crew for a job well done! 2003-11-02 2:10 pm Anonymous It worries me that it comes on a dvd and takes 5 gig to install, some reports say that the current version is slow on a 3GHz P4 and think that future versions will be faster, but considered the reputation of microsoft I doubt that. 2003-11-02 2:16 pm Anonymous Microsoft is ‘innovating’ it’s way into making every webpage in the world WINDOWS ONLY. They already have done most of this, they are just finishing OSS communities off. Microsoft will spend it’s time with web site gurus explaining how .net and XML with MS API is the only way webpages are ‘secure’. So I predict that in the next 3 years, even google.com will not be accessable from anything other than Windows LH or higher. Think I am crazy? Get on a non windows computer and travel to http://www.buymusic.com – This is the site microsoft points you to for ‘choice’ in buying music. Avoid MS, the only standards they are trying to make anymore is ones they can copyright and hide very important language specs from programmers. [drops two cents in the bucket] 2003-11-02 2:22 pm Anonymous I find the situation with Longhorn disappointing for several reasons. First, for the next few years, every review will compare real, existing products with lonhorn — in other words, with promise, potential and vapor, rather than an actualy product available in the marketplace. It’s already happening. Trade press is falling over itself writing Reviews of Longhorn. How different will Longhorn be in 3 years? How different from the hype were all of Microsoft’s past products? This drumbeat of Longhorn is Microsoft’s way of controlling the discussion, just as Cairo was. Any feature any competitor adds can, and will, be handled by saying, “Oh, that’ll be in Longhorn.” Second, everyone is focusing on Avalon (ooo… shiny!) and apparently forgetting about Palladium and DRM, which are prominently listed as exciting new features for Longhorn. Microsoft will be controlling what you run and how you run it. I doubt they’ll do it full-bore in the first release, but the releases after that will be your basic desktop XBox. Third, Longhorn is clearly being built for non-interoperability. People are already making comments about implementing web applications using XAML — leaving them Windows-only — for instance. DRM and Palladium are there, in part, to prevent interoperability. Indigo, Avalon, .Net remoting, WinFS — these all add up to, “you can’t talk to Windows systems without running Windows.” It’s Microsoft’s favorite game: lock-in. I’m not saying that Avalon isn’t an interesting idea whose time has come (again — NeWS, Display Postscript, XUL, Quartz, etc.). Just that people are focusing on the shiny stuff and ignoring the real problems Longhorn will cause. 2003-11-02 2:30 pm Anonymous Not really concerned. First, anything new will be featured here, so I will end up reading it anyways. Next, the new features they are touting have already been underway in open source development for a long while now. Things like Storage, Dashboard, Mozilla App’s, etc. As far as what new and innovative things already exist, I haven’t seen anything that makes me go “Wow!” Now, before anyone goes and says I just hate MS, that’s not entirely true. Their development platform is very nice, and has always impressed me. Visual Studio is very powerful, and neatly packaged to make development easy. From what I have read on the dev angle, they seem to be doing a few new things, but as far as being innovative: I just don’t see it. Their is nothing new, just new for MS. 2003-11-02 2:41 pm Anonymous Longhorn is still 2-3 years away. Lots of things could change between now and then. 2003-11-02 2:41 pm Anonymous An interesting poll would be which of the technologies being introduced will have the most impact: the graphics system, the Avalon XAML programming model, the WinFS storage system, the Indigo communications system, the new command shell, the digital rights system, the secure-by-default approach, or something else. My feeling is that Microsoft is just catching up with Mac OS X on graphics, and I’m not very confident that they will actually be able to design something nice when they have that graphic power. Windows XP’s default design is so horrible, it’s difficult to express in words. (You need smells to really describe it). Will the same people suddenly make Longhorn beautiful, or will they create something even more cartoony and ridiculous? Avalon is not very promising, to my mind. It duplicates Mozilla and Glade in its XML approach, and since most actual programming is done in a visual editor (i.e., Visual Studio) there’s very little impact on the programmer on whether the layout is expressed in code or XML. You don’t have to look at that part anyway, so who cares what it’s written in? But if Avalon is a tool to take over the Web, by getting people to write lots of Windows-only web sites, the result could be significant (if also evil). WinFS could be big. It seems like a very appropriate service for an OS to provide. We’ll have to see how well it is designed and how well it is used to be sure. And again, there’s the whiff of Microsoft-only about it, that makes it sound like yet another way to lock people into Windows. I think it will only be really big if it is open enough that there are alternative implementations of it. Indigo may be the most revolutionary, based on what little I know about it. The idea of using the same methods for communications between networks, computers, processes and threads is very appealing. By letting the OS handle the physical details of how heavy-weight a communications protocol is needed in a particular case, you free the programmer from having to know multiple techniques, and you let the physical details change without affecting the code itself. Again, the key will be how open it is, and whether alternative implementations are available. Will Microsoft ever acknowledge that its customers want to have heterogenous systems interoperate? And will they put their customer’s desires ahead of their own selfish purposes? I always like looking at new lightweight languages, so I’m interested in the new command shell. But so far at least it doesn’t look like Microsoft is willing to propose this lightweight language as an equal of C#. As a Python fan, I’m convinced that lightweight languages are the future. But I’m worried the command shell will be crippled, so it doesn’t alarm IT managers that maybe they made a mistake in investing all that training money in C#. Digital rights management is coming. Get used to it. But I don’t see any sign that our right to owning an “unlocked” computer is threatened. If DRM gets too harsh, there’s always a rebellion. The pendulum may swing, but it will swing back (perhaps when some band gets really, really rich by bypassing the record companies). Secure-by-default is coming in XP service pack 2, it seems. About time, eh? So it’s not new for Longhorn, but maybe the day is coming when you don’t have to devote half your Windows CPU power to real-time scanning for viruses. My vote on the most significant Longhorn technology: Indigo. 2003-11-02 2:43 pm Anonymous and the 3d rendering engine because the 2d acceleration has sucked for a long time. 2003-11-02 2:49 pm Anonymous The only way I know how to judge Longhorn at this moment is the same way I currently judge the early chicago interface. If you are interested in seeing this biuld, you gan get screenshots at http://toastytech.com/guis/c73.html I would compare biulds 4027 and earlier biulds to Chicago biuld 58s ( http://toastytech.com/guis/chic58.html ). These were very early alphas of what was to become Windows 95 biuld 950. If you compare these screenshots to the final biuld of Windows 95, http://toastytech.com/guis/win95.html, and Windows 3.1, http://toastytech.com/guis/win31.html, you will find that these very early alphas have more in common with Windows 3.1 as far as functionality and apperance that they do with the final Windows 95 biuld. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that although we can see progress, it is too early go get a feel of the final product. Longhorn will no doubt appear very different at the RTM stage than it does now. Another comparison would be a 1912 Ford model A to a 2003 Ford Escort. The model A has all the very basic functions that require an automobile to function, but many features of the modern automobile are not there such as ABS, climate control (both heating and air conditioning), air bags, AM/FM/CD radio, airbags, power steering, powerbrakes, impact resistant dual-ply glass, etc. If you were to compare a 1992 Ford escort to the newer model, not much is that different (if you compare both models to the Model A.) I will wait on longhorn until it reaches Beta 2 to make any judgements as far as usibility and apperance are concerned, as that eill be much closer to the final biuld than any of these early alphas are. Right now, longhorn looks just like XP with a slighly different theme, and very little “bonus” features. but who knows (besides maybe MS) what the RTM product will look like. It is almost impossible to tell from these early biulds. 2003-11-02 2:53 pm Anonymous umm…do you even know how the MS UI will work? I thought so. it will use the GPU and Video RAM to draw the UI and all effects. that means that it is basically free since the GFX card is only 20% utilized when in 2D mode where it simple sends the images rendered by the CPU to the monitor. you will have a hardware accelerated UI rather than a software accelerated one. that means that the COU will have very very little to do with compositing the UI and effects. and with the fast interconnects that will be standard in PCs in 2 years, and fast CPUs, and hopefully, new Drive technologies that will decrease seek time wile keeping heat and noise to a minimum, the impact of WinFS will be negligible. 2003-11-02 2:58 pm Anonymous Ive never even used XP, I never needed it. …and if its so powerfull and cool as Microsoft claims I ask one question. Why will Linux always be faster than Longhorn? Customability, because Linux is more powerfull still and I can make it do what I want and only what I want.. (for computer experts only, novice users need not apply) 2003-11-02 3:14 pm Anonymous People have been playing down some of the bigger changes (IMHO) being their trustworthy computing, (palatinus, or whatever they were calling it.) I thought this was supposed to be .NETos. 2003-11-02 3:17 pm Anonymous “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a da**.” In a nutshell how I feel. 2003-11-02 3:24 pm Anonymous I’ve seen various builds of LH, minus graphic bells and whistles, and can say it is progressing nicely. Can’t wait for the first beta next year! 2003-11-02 3:56 pm Anonymous I’m trying to remember when the Itanium started being hyped like this … It was many many years before it would be released and AMD was just releasing a new chip (Athlon maybe, someone help me out). So with all these magazine articles about the new Itanium (which sounded very cool at the time) who would buy the AMD chip when Itanium was right around the corner? This feel like its similar. Microsoft hyping grand things now to prevent people to move toward linux. And by the time its released, it won’t be everything its cracked-up to be. 2003-11-02 3:58 pm Anonymous It took an unreal amount of time for setup to complete (about an hour). It uses close to 500k ram on idle. The GUI is the worst looking one yet, especially with that huge sidebar and the default LARGE icons. Search and Help icons can’t be removed from the desktop. There’s a really huge and ugly header/titlebar that can’t be removed in explorer and other apps. What’s to say, except it’s the same old shit with a new dye-job. There’s a definite trend towards a forced “father knows best” attitude – I could not use it without tweakui and other extensive registry edits. As it exists in this build, it’s a complete disappointment. 2003-11-02 4:05 pm Anonymous I find the situation with Longhorn disappointing for several reasons. First, for the next few years, every review will compare real, existing products with lonhorn — in other words, with promise, potential and vapor, rather than an actualy product available in the marketplace. It’s already happening. Trade press is falling over itself writing Reviews of Longhorn. How different will Longhorn be in 3 years? How different from the hype were all of Microsoft’s past products? This drumbeat of Longhorn is Microsoft’s way of controlling the discussion, just as Cairo was. Any feature any competitor adds can, and will, be handled by saying, “Oh, that’ll be in Longhorn.” Second, everyone is focusing on Avalon (ooo… shiny!) and apparently forgetting about Palladium and DRM, which are prominently listed as exciting new features for Longhorn. Microsoft will be controlling what you run and how you run it. I doubt they’ll do it full-bore in the first release, but the releases after that will be your basic desktop XBox. Third, Longhorn is clearly being built for non-interoperability. People are already making comments about implementing web applications using XAML — leaving them Windows-only — for instance. DRM and Palladium are there, in part, to prevent interoperability. Indigo, Avalon, .Net remoting, WinFS — these all add up to, “you can’t talk to Windows systems without running Windows.” It’s Microsoft’s favorite game: lock-in. I’m not saying that Avalon isn’t an interesting idea whose time has come (again — NeWS, Display Postscript, XUL, Quartz, etc.). Just that people are focusing on the shiny stuff and ignoring the real problems Longhorn will cause. 2003-11-02 4:05 pm Anonymous The reason I don’t like the idea of Longhorn is because of them forcing Trusted Computing and DRM down our throats. I don’t want to be locked out of anything on _my_ own computer. Sadly though, the masses will love the new pretty graphics and whatever gimicks they use, and it will be de facto accepted. Alaric. 2003-11-02 4:34 pm Anonymous I decided, somewhere in April or May of 2001, that Windows 2000 Pro would be the last Microsoft OS I used at home. Win2K performs well on my Windows machine, which is too underpowered to run well with Windows XP, and I won’t be in the market for a new PC for several years to come. There are many good operating systems out there now, OS’s that may not be as pretty as XP (with the decided exception of OS X!) and/or Longhorn, but perform as well or better, are more resistant to virus/trojan attacks, and are generally more robust than any of the offerings from Microsoft. For those of you that like XP and are looking forward to the relase of Longhorn (or what ever the marketdroids at Microsoft name the release version), I say “good on you!”. There is certainly room enough in this world for as many OS’s as we can think up. 2003-11-02 4:34 pm Anonymous This guy talking about video games was not telling what you think he was, he was talking about hardware acceleration of GUI as it has been in games for many years ( and then mac osx ), many people talk the sama of video games as PC games so don’t be so angry at him. PDC2003 was ment for developers, they have to begin development soon. Microsoft has not been advertising this to the public, when someone from the press leaks such information to the public it’s not Microsoft that is doing that. Longhorn is not built for low end user as that territory is in many ways lost to the open source community. There is no more money to gain from the poor people so they aim on the little richer people, they will indeed have 26″ LCD with high res, SPOT watches, tablets, and such powerful devices, not the poor people that complain about software that costs less than 100$ ( not talking about microsoft product here ) I don’t know what people are still doing with 1024×768 displays, 1600×1200 is minimum for me and if lower I need more displays combined. Side bars are more clever than the top- bottom toolbars, because displays will mostly be wide screen by 2006 and with much higher resolution. If you are browsing web pages on for example 1600×1200 resolution today then there would fit about 3 web pages on the screen with default design, for example OS News ( you see it’s in the center far away from the corners as it’s developed for low res displays, then you see what a waste of space there is not having a sidebar. 2003-11-02 4:58 pm Anonymous This poll has flame-bait written all over it. But personally, I think Longhorn will be “the next big thing”. And as for people who say the UI sucks: the real UI (Aero) probably won’t look anything like this. It’s just some test stuff. 2003-11-02 5:08 pm Anonymous It looks like an excellent desktop OS for the end-users, unfortunately, at the developer’s conference, MS has yet gave any good news for developers, concerning longhorn. All bad news so far 2003-11-02 5:11 pm Anonymous Nope, I use Redhat(/Fedora) & Gnome at home. But I do think that people underestimate MS and loghorn. Take a look at VisualStudio 7. Originally it kept on being delayed by small intervals, because of small fixes or serioussly rediculous things, until relativly very close to the release, they revealed the whole .NET initiative. I think the same thing is happening here. Microsoft wants to start implementing some extra things into loghorn (which is a bit freightening considering they are already doing huge things in the current code) but they want to make sure they have it working before they make any press releases about it. People can say ,that they are not innovative, or that they are ‘stealing’ other peoples ideas. Well guess what, the average windows consumer dosnt give a crap about that. If its somthing that they can use well, it will give more people reasons not to leave MS for OSS alternatives. A little browser example. MS now has support for popup blocking. That is one significant less reason for a user to switch to Mozilla(seamony or firebird). They could care less that MS ‘stole’ this feature and that its ‘about time’. The only thing that the consumer cares, is that now they have this ‘awesome technology’ finally in windows. Same thing with Mac’s Safari. How much innovation was there really behind mac’s safari? Heck they didnt even write their own html parser. But typical mac users dont care. All they care about is that have no reason to use IE on mac, or camino. 2003-11-02 5:14 pm Anonymous Avalon, the next-generation vector graphics engine is really starting to look impressive. Indigo, integrated support for Web Services is sounding great. Microsoft finally achieving the Web & Desktop integrated dream it started with Active Desktop *shudders* WinFS, still just a gleam in their programmers’ eye at the moment. But if done right, holds the possibility for changing the way we deal with files. I, personally, am excited about Longhorn. I sure hope it delivers 2003-11-02 5:17 pm Anonymous Havent cared what they do since 1999. When I discovered Linux and the rest of the *nix os. 2003-11-02 5:18 pm Anonymous OT: …Aero rhymes with Cairo…. Only, if memory serves, you’re talking about the city in downstate Illinois. Even then, it’s a bad rhyme. (Air-o and Kay-ro) The much, much older and much. much larger city on the banks of the Nile is pronounced, by non-Arabic speakers at least, as “Ki-ro”, with a long “i”, i.e. sounds like “eye”. But, then, maybe Microsoft got a trademark on their own pronunciation. 2003-11-02 5:20 pm Anonymous This poll should be posted around a year from now, it’s way to early to tell what the finished products going to be like. I like the ideas behind some of the changes they are making but, I don’t want to evaluate an unfinished product. 2003-11-02 5:32 pm Anonymous The lesser graphics are the primary reason I left console gaming behind a long time ago. Too bad the gaming industry is moving in the opposite direction…It’s a lot more profitable to make games for consoles than for PCs (if you’re not Blizzard, Id or Valve, that is…) Developing for consoles is also much easier – especially at the testing phase – and that’s where you have the most innovation. 2003-11-02 5:36 pm Anonymous As long as I can still put the desktop in ‘classic mode’ 2003-11-02 5:50 pm Anonymous Why should i care about an operating system that might, if the stars alighn just right and the price of tea in china fluctuates just the right way, be released within the better part of the next decade. They don’t even have a REAL alpha out much less a working beta to see what the thing is supposed to be like. I think M$ is blowing smoke at us to keep interest in them up while they twiddle their thumbs and talk about how good the Xbox is. I think i’ll concentrate on the next versions of KDE and kernel 2.6 before i’ll consider giving a crap about M$ and their new CLI. Unix had a better shell a decade ago and its only gotten better. just my $0.02. UofM Electrical Engineering, Emag & Optics. 2003-11-02 5:52 pm Anonymous Long(horn) on promises. As always, buggy, unsecure, most not delivered. Who _actually_ believes anymore the hype that MS puts out? Fool me 20 times … I don’t care anymore. I support Windows on PCs at work and for home, I just want something that works. I’m not trolling. That is literally how I feel. I gave up on Microsoft. I’m a Mac user now. I play lots of 3D games including the Quake series, Wolfenstein, Tiger Woods Golf, and Neverwinter Nights, to name a very few. I’ve got about 60 very good quality games I play. And I’m not talking about anything lame like Solitair and Tetris. I’m talking real 3D games. I don’t need MS Office. Open Office works just fine for me. Everything I need or want to do I do on my Mac. Fun, work, everything. MS? I just don’t care anymore. Except that for as long as they use Windows at work I KNOW I will always have a good paying job. Because they will never fix the bugs or the security. The foundation is built on sand. Not much they can do other than moving onto some other OS foundation. Sure they will tell us time after time they are starting over and THIS time they have gotten it right. Bill G. will just be sitting in his chair laughing. “April Fools!” 2003-11-02 5:53 pm Anonymous Only then does it cease to be a promise. Hence, I can’t care until then. 2003-11-02 6:47 pm Anonymous My thoughts? No thanks! http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html I don’t want anything to do with it because i like freedom instead of some control system. If i’d want that, i’d build it myself… 2003-11-02 9:30 pm Anonymous With all this hype, if they don’t live up to expectations they’ll be the laughingstock like they were when 3.0 came out. 2003-11-02 10:32 pm Anonymous Didn’t your mother ever tell you not to believe everything you read on the internet. Oh, big bad Microsoft I cant download pirated MP3s anymore. Oh big bad Microsoft, I cant write Virii anymore. Oh big bad Microsoft they are working with manufacturers to make a computer Architecture that is more secure than the current Intel x86. You’ll still be able to own and buy standard x86 systems, and probably even use Windows if you choose to. Tructed Computing aims to create a platform that the rest of the world will want to use. Where you dont have to worry about Virii, crap prgramming, and pirated media. God, these childish attitudes about this, “I own my own system and I can do what I like with it” – well actually you cant, there is a little something we in the real world like to call the LAW. The only thing TC is a problem too is the people in this world who cause problems with their computers, and petty criminals. 2003-11-02 10:46 pm Anonymous personally I plan to be MS free by the time longhorn goes mainstream. 2003-11-02 11:03 pm Anonymous It looks like there is just as much difference between Windows XP and Longhorn as there was between Windows 2000 and XP. Of course, as it’s been said over and over and over again, it’s still too early to make a good judgement. 2003-11-03 12:12 am Anonymous While we are at it we could as well discuss possible features in GNOME4 and KDE5. :rolls: 2003-11-03 12:48 am Anonymous If Longhorn was released today it would be way ahead of anything else out there. But it’s difficult to say how it will compare 3 years from now. I like the new graphics engine, but OS X could be doing everything they’re doing by the end of next year. The new file system is interesting, but I don’t think it holds huge appeal to the average Windows user. The average user just doesn’t have enough information to take advantage of these features. In cases where they do have a lot of files: music, photographs, etc, you can just supply a dedicated app such as iTunes, iPhoto, etc. It’s interesting to compare the two different approaches. Again, I think OS X could be offering most of what Longhorn’s WinFS will do for the average user by the end of 2004. For developers, Longhorn is a much better prospect than anything out there, and as a development platform I doubt it will be surpassed by anything for a long time after its release. It will take Apple and Linux years to catch up with the underlying developer framework and the flexibility Microsoft are planning. 2003-11-03 12:55 am Anonymous Hey I love longhorn! It’s sooooo good I’m been test same prebeta copys and we have found it best OS to date! As fair as hardware it kill both windows & Red Hat and my boss PC m/b died and he change just about every part of this PC and longhorn pick up the changes and work fantatic and the new build 4051 has best look. I’m running 400 Mhz PC at home and 2 GMhz PC at home and speed fantatic. It redrawing speed is faster then both Windows XP and Linux. and is 1000% more stable. I have not had longhorn lock up on me. And it run all the old programs and new program better then Any old windows. My Parter Has a old game that will only work on longhorn. and that not all. And it’s muiltasking is just amazing is so smooth. 2003-11-03 1:04 am Anonymous Eugenia (IP: —.osnews.com) – Posted on 2003-11-02 08:42:48 Everytime we put polls up, people will just want their own options. Personally, I find Longhorn very promising (and I am the person who put up the poll, so you don’t have to create conspiracy theories). I find Longhorn both innovative and powerful. Its UI sucks currently, but I am sure that MS will replace it for the final version. It is no surprise considering that their main audiance they have been hyping Longhorn to is the developer and technology literate groups who have a say in the direction of their companies, either service or as a ISV. IMHO, Microsoft is going to wait until the end of next year to release a finalised GUI design so that the design sits well with the current “fashion trend”. If the trend of minimalism continues, we may see a GUI with less fluff and and cruft. Considering that it is another 2 years away, I am waiting for who the eventual winner of the 64bit war is going to be, which IMHO will be Opteron, and how the different features of C# and .NET pan out. If they turn out to be a real winner, I’ll be very much willing to learn C# and get on board. Being a Java programmer, the move to C# should be a relatively painless exercise. Sean (IP: —.dorm.brandeis.edu) – Posted on 2003-11-02 09:06:24 Whether Longhorn is good or not will depend on a lot of things. Microsoft is going into dangerous territory with a filesystem that will use up way more system resources and a display engine that will use up a ton as well. Apple’s had years under their belt to make their 3rd generation display model with tons of real life experience. Will Microsoft’s first try be as successful? Will consumers lash out at Longhorn calling it slow without realizing how much power is necessary for a 3G display model? How is using a DB ridding on top of NTFS and being used to store meta-data a bad thing? Windows XP was crap because they rushed it out 18months after Windows 2000 and included some major kernel changes, btw, if you are interested in those changes, just flick back back around when Windows XP was launched and have a read of the MSDN magazine explaining the kernel changes such as removing device driver size limitations, removal of Registry size limitations and so forth. They’re great changes, however, they should have been under the testing microscope for alot longer than what it was. Will Linux gain from its perceived speed superiority because of the lag created by the 3G display model of Longhorn? Will people want the 3G display model so much that it puts the nails in Linux’s coffin? What lag? We’ve got video cards sitting on a 8x AGP bus, for all intensive purposes the amount of memory on the video card right now is an overkill considering there is no longer a need to massively buffer graphics in the video card memory due to the massive bandwidth that now exists. As for the future, AGP and PCI are going to be replaced with PCI-Express which should result in cheaper motherboards and cheaper components. The biggest thing is whether the computing power will be able to handle the new display engine without loosing a step or whether people are going to notice delays. This is the challenge of Longhorn. Who cares about the computing power when all that work is being off loaded to a GPU to do all the leg work. Ultimately you will have a awsome, flashy effects and only see the CPU blink to 5% occasionally. Nolridor (IP: —.hispeed.ch) – Posted on 2003-11-02 09:20:59 I had the pleasure to test Windows Longhorn PDC Build. It looks impressive, but it consumed resources… It run 50 processes and allocates 400 MB of RAM… And that after the boot process. Well I suppose this won’t be a problem in 2 years. Considering that Windows Longhorn PDC build probably has around 200tonnes worth of debugging code running, I am not surprised. Btw, does the 400MB include disk buffering? George WMD Bush (IP: —.cable.mindspring.com) – Posted on 2003-11-02 11:06:19 Longhorn looks like it’s trying to be too many things. This ofcourse is no accident, Microsoft’s strategy requires it. I just wonder if an OS really should try to do this, rather than be as minimalist as possible, giving the user the options to install what they want, how they want, not what they don’t want and what may cause *unecessary* problems for them. They can already do that via the add/remove. As for Internet Explorer, it for all intensive purproses, it is a front end to mshtml and numerous of the dlls. Don’t say, “oh, but I want to remove it”. The only thing that would be removed is iexplorer.exe, saving a WOPPING 48K hard disk space! Applications rely on Internet Explorer to render the help files and users rely on it because that is what they choose to use. It is the old story, if you don’t like it, don’t run it. But that’s once again, Microsoft strategy. If they didn’t bundle all those junk apps and bloat, they would not be able to control the world’s standards. Even though Microsoft is in a losing battle, Windows is not going to go away for a long time, and a great many people are going to have to deal with the problems it will cause. The only junk application I see in Windows XP is the move maker, apart from that, I am quite happy with what is provided. You appear to be in the ultra-niche who think that because you don’t need it, automatically everyone else doesn’t need it. But you can’t just blame Microsoft, all the companies that have a chance to do something about it now can’t seem to get their act together. While that continues, Microsoft could start selling whatever junk they want, most people will still have to buy it. Who said they had to buy it? I consciously made the decision to purchase an Apple Mac. No cohersion, no bribing on Apples part. As an adult I decided, based on what my requirements were and what Apple provides, that the Apple Mac best suited by requirements. Are you saying that the population out there are all zombies and instantly buy what is on the market? Every thing that has failed when going up against Microsoft has been because they either failed to market, their product was only alright but lacked ISV and IHV support or their product was really good by there was no ISV and IHV support. BeOS, great operating system but crap hardware and software support. GNU/Linux, adequate hardware support crap software support. Apple, great operating system, adequate number of applications, crap marketing. Q (IP: —.groni1.gr.home.nl) – Posted on 2003-11-02 11:06:39 The problem is that consumers have come accustomed to buggy and insecure software over all these years. Buggy and insecure software is now a standard, something that belongs to computers and software. It’s a real tragedy. There are so many better solutions out there and Longhorn will NOT improve its track record on Security or Trusted Computing guaranteed. What is the alternative? GNU/Linux? what a joke. From the poorly co-ordinated GUI to the crap number of ISVs. People want card markers, photo editors, word processors, easy to use installation process; copy MacOS X installer if you have to! games that run at a decent level of reliability, an Xserver that doesn’t have massive lag when resizing windows, decent hardware support so that Joe User can actually see the difference when they upgrade their video card to a GeForce BF 3Trillion. The fact remains that GNU/Linux community and distributors have done very little to encourage third party Windows software vendors to start offering Linux versions of their applications. SUN goes on about JDS and yet, they aren’t willing to get MYOB ported to JDS. 2003-11-03 1:13 am Anonymous “Didn’t your mother ever tell you not to believe everything you read on the internet.” Hi mom! “Oh, big bad Microsoft I cant download pirated MP3s anymore.” Neither legal OGG’s if the RIAA wants me to [they already did this with legal MP3’s]. Anything Microsoft doesn’t want me to do, won’t happen. I’m not in control of my system anymore. “Oh big bad Microsoft, I cant write Virii anymore.” (Virii is incorrect plural. Neither should it be written with a capital in the middle of a sentence.) Why can’t people write a virus anymore? If there’s a flaw in the TC system, it can still happen. At such time, it would mean a major disaster. Mind you DRM1 has been cracked already. Plus what makes you think those who actually control the TC system can’t write a virus and make the slave-computer(s) accept it? “Oh big bad Microsoft they are working with manufacturers to make a computer Architecture that is more secure than the current Intel x86.” The security implementation is indeed ”secure”… for a little, small group of elite if i may add. It looks it has some nice abilities, but it has also serious downsides (which you completely ignore in your effort). “You’ll still be able to own and buy standard x86 systems, and probably even use Windows if you choose to.” How are you so sure about this? What do you think about when OTHER people won’t do this and chose to run this beast on a public server with all logging and privacy doors open? “Tructed Computing aims to create a platform that the rest of the world will want to use.” A blatant lie. We’ll still have to see IF the rest of the world wants to use it. I know several people who won’t, and i’m convincing people not to. Nanana. You’re actually the first one i’ve mett who LIKES it. “Where you dont have to worry about Virii” I don’t worry much about virusses since i use a decent virusscanner and for my platform(s) virusses aren’t common. In my eyes, virusses are the result of single-user OSes and clueless lusers who don’t know why it’s stupid to do stuff as uid 0 / Administrator – which are beeing exploited by virus writers. “crap prgramming” LOL, indeed. Bill Gates isn’t interested in secure programming. http://www.itbusiness.ca/index.asp?theaction=61&sid=53897 OpenBSD devel team for example, is interested. http://www.openbsd.org/34.html “and pirated media.” As you might have thought about previously, this problem has multiple sideaspects. It’s a two-edged sword. NORMALLY, in a HEALTHY free market, the price of a product would go DOWN when there’s LESS demand. This doesn’t happen in the music /industry/. If one downloads copyrighted music track X and wouldn’t have bought it in the store, there’s no loss for the author of track X. It’s illegal, yet there’s no damage to anyone. Suicide is illegal by law too, yet when one decides not to live anymore and does commit so, there’s no damage to him/herself and it was his/her choice, therefore justified. “”I own my own system and I can do what I like with it”” Indeed. If one owns a car, a kitchen knife, a throwser, a gun, one can kill with it. Yet, that goes beyond the law. So your point is? Mine is, a lot more things can be used as a tool to go beyond law, yet they’re NOT illegal NOR controlled by a small group of elite control maniacs. “well actually you cant” Yes, i can. “there is a little something we in the real world like to call the LAW.” Perhaps that’s where the problem lies? A law exists for a reason. A law doesn’t justify itself for it’s sole existence. We’ve had all these kind of (un)pleasant in the past and present.. and we had and have people who fought against these laws with various results. Do you want examples? Ok. The fact people weren’t allowed to vote. The fact woman weren’t allowed to vote. The fact people fought against the illegalisation of alcohol in the USA in ’30’s. The fact resistance-activists fought against the nazi’s in Europe. There you have a few. Actually, TC can go beyond law and put on laws they want. For example, put on law X which counts in USA to disallow one in country Y to do Z. Or even disallow A which is in fact by law allowed. “The only thing TC is a problem too is the people in this world who cause problems with their computers” Like which problems? Like who does so? Bit too vague my friend. “and petty criminals.” Authorities and corporations can be criminals, too. If they own such a control beast like TC, they can behave like criminals, too. What do you know about antitrust? Have you actually readed 1984? A clockwork orange? A space odyssey? Mein kampf perhaps? 2003-11-03 1:43 am Anonymous I was surprised that only 14% of voters considered Windows Longhorn innovative and powerful. Longhorn uses powerful desktop composition engine rather than the deficient direct rendering by windows. It offers important new APIs. It is expected to offer a database-like file system WinFS (on top of NTFS), which, if successful, could dramatically alter the way we work with files. Computers are of vital importance to the society. Someday, Longhorn (and its derivatives) will probably be the operating system of most personal computers, which makes Longhorn important regardless of whether you are planning to run it. 2003-11-03 3:37 am Anonymous “God, these childish attitudes about this, “I own my own system and I can do what I like with it” – well actually you can’t, there is a little something we in the real world like to call the LAW. The only thing TC is a problem too is the people in this world who cause problems with their computers, and petty criminals.” So what you’re saying is that Microsoft is the law, right? Because this hasn’t been mandated by the Federal Government yet. And that’s the whole point. As for the criminals, do you really think TC is going to stop them for long? I would TC is just like waving the red flag in front of the hacker and virus writers. I don’t believe it’s going to be impregnable. 2003-11-03 4:06 am Anonymous Applesandoranges (IP: —.rasserver.net) – Posted on 2003-11-03 03:37:46 “God, these childish attitudes about this, “I own my own system and I can do what I like with it” – well actually you can’t, there is a little something we in the real world like to call the LAW. The only thing TC is a problem too is the people in this world who cause problems with their computers, and petty criminals.” So what you’re saying is that Microsoft is the law, right? Because this hasn’t been mandated by the Federal Government yet. And that’s the whole point. No. Stop making up hype and rubbish. Microsoft is mearly PROVIDING a way for software companies to provide a way to protect their software any other intellectual property. DRM already exists with in Windows XP and Windows 2000, it is up to the software producer to decide whether or not they want their software to hook into that piece of functionality. TC will be the same thing except in the form of hardware. As for the criminals, do you really think TC is going to stop them for long? I would TC is just like waving the red flag in front of the hacker and virus writers. I don’t believe it’s going to be impregnable. Do you even know what TC is? bloody heck I can’t stand FUD meisters and hype pushers who know diddly squat about the TC innitiative. They’re as bad as those nut cases who moaned about the PIII serial number. Tin foil wearing, conspiracy theorist spreading losers who have nothing better to do than spreading false and misleading information. I’ve read what TC is, IBM’s “Security Subsystem” and numorous other pieces of information. This is a great move forward for those who want secure computing and the ability to secure their data without the need to screw around with the current way things are done now. As for the “shatter attack” (reported here a few months ago), TC is part of the whole equation of securing information not only going in and out of the computer but what is flying around inside it. 2003-11-03 3:04 pm Anonymous Longhorn 2005=Mac OS X 2002 2003-11-03 3:05 pm Anonymous just one thing… BeOS is dead but it still rules. from all i’ve read, i think we must prepare ourself for something huge, big, slow and “déjà-vu”… like all other windows, we will surely see a copyright from 1985 to 2005 ? it’s been a long time i saw a real client OS (i mean Be…). For those who have tried Be, and still use it : you know what i mean ! For the others, take a look at it and join the community ! 2003-11-03 3:31 pm Anonymous When it comes out.