It’s debut week for Java Desktop System— a product in which Sun Microsystems Inc. has combined Linux, Mozilla, GNOME and StarOffice—creating a credible challenger to Microsoft Corp.’s Windows and Office on the corporate desktop. Read the review at eWEEK and make sure you come back tomorrow as our review of JDS goes online.
Sun’s JDS Rivals Windows, Office
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Eugenia Loli
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Sounds like RedHat, or any other Linux distro..
Anything innovative about this product that makes it rival Windows, Office so well compared with other Linux distros? Or does a reputable corporation like Sun Microsystems automaticly make better products because of what, their brand name?
Wait for our review tomorrow.
Sounds like another regular distro yes, except its more appealing to people because its got a brand name backing it & support.
I think RedHat and SUSE are big names now, aren’t they?
“Or does a reputable corporation like Sun Microsystems automaticly make better products because of what, their brand name?”
Bingo. Before the big boys like IBM jumped on the bandwagon all the trade rags relegated Linux to a hobbyist OS. After IBM throws millions around on marketing it’s suddenly a viable server OS.
Note to rabid fanboys: I never said it wasn’t already a viable server OS, just that it wasn’t presented as such by most of the print media.
“Or does a reputable corporation like Sun Microsystems automaticly make better products because of what, their brand name?”
“Bingo. Before the big boys like IBM jumped on the bandwagon all the trade rags relegated Linux to a hobbyist OS. After IBM throws millions around on marketing it’s suddenly a viable server OS.”
Not that that’s a bad thing. More large companies like Sun coming out with Linux products can only help Linux’s image and promote more mainstream adoption in the business world.
Just thought I should clarify a bit since my original reply came off as kind of bitter and cynical.
I can’t believe people still fail to realize that the Java Desktop System is part of a complete client/server enterprise package being offered by Sun… therein lies the difference; the Java Desktop System is fully interoperable with the components being sold on the server side, such as the Sun Java System Messaging Server (formerly Sun ONE Messaging Server, formerly Edgemail) This truly rivals Microsoft offerings such as Outlook on the client side and Exchange on the server.
Isn’t Xandros due out soon?
Offtopic, but it’s due for release on 12/16/03.
I don’t think anything (Linux or otherwise) can rival Microsoft with Mozilla and OpenOffice as the ‘main attractions’ in the application department.
Compared to IE, Opera, or Firebird, using Mozilla (speed-wise) is like ‘surfing’ under water, and unless OpenOffice has improved by leaps and bounds since the last version I’ve tried (1.03), that’s not going to turn many heads either. Version 1.03 was just sub-par.
What should happen (IMHO) is to replace Mozilla with Firebird, Evolution as the email client, and have somebody write a decent office suite that can open MS Word/Excel files, and then Linux will be ready for the buisnesses who simply require the ‘bread and butter’ apps. I don’t know how many businesses those are, but I don’t the number is as high as some zealots would like to think.
“Sun sells JDS for $100 per machine per year, or $150 per employee per year when paired with the rest of Sun’s enterprise software stack. Sun includes 60 days of installation and configuration support by phone or e-mail with purchase.”
What is with the $100/$150 per year stuff? I don’t understand redhat doing it, let alone sun. This puts it out of reach of most users. Still cheaper then Windows + Office, but those are a one time fee at least, not annually. I am curious to see what they offer for that kind of money. If it is the same as RedHat, I personally will have to just stay with SuSE, since for $80 period I can install on as many machines I want to. The support is the same for SuSE. RedHat at least gives a year of support for the product, which is what they are charging for. What is Sun charging annually per machine for??
More offtopic stuff…
You should try OO.org 1.1. I’d say it’s slightly better than Office 97 and just a step or two behind Office 2000 – which is still pretty impressive seeing as how it’s free, and all. I use it at work everyday and have never had it crash on me (it stays open all day long) which is more than I can say for MSOffice.
If you’ve already paid for Office2000 or better, though, there’s really no reason to switch.
I agree that Firebird and Evolution may be better solutions for browsing and email. I feel those are superior to the normal mozilla builds.
I use staroffice at home and have been pleased with it. My documents have been opened on both staroffice and ms word/excel and have come up great .. until I started to use a macros in the documents to automate tasks, that is when they wouldn’t open or work correctly.
Since it’s being offered by sun what enterprise level tools does it include? I mean, remote deployment of software, etc, etc? The review didn’t really cover any of this. What exactly is this supposed to be integrated with?
Darius (IP: —.dmotorworks.com)
“OpenOffice has improved by leaps and bounds since the last version I’ve tried (1.03), that’s not going to turn many heads either. Version 1.03 was just sub-par.”
The Java Desktop System comes with Sun’s StarOffice 7, not OO.o.
Drill Sgt (IP: 12.177.68.—)
What is with the $100/$150 per year stuff? I don’t understand redhat doing it, let alone sun. This puts it out of reach of most users.
That’s $100/employee/year for a complete hardware/software package which will be maintained and upgraded as a company’s needs change. Certainly this is out of the reach of “most users”, it’s intended for an enterprise environment.
I also wonder what’s the difference between JDS and other distros. I tried a lot but in the end it’s still Linux all the time (suprise!). And most issues are distro-independent/nothing a distro maker could fix alone.
I can’t believe people still fail to realize that the Java Desktop System is part of a complete client/server enterprise package being offered by Sun… therein lies the difference
…and what a difference it is. Corporations want to have a supported end to end solution.
Sun pushing Linux desktops is one big win for one growing PENGUIN.
Have you noticed … Sun’s pricing is less than Red Hat’s enterprise desktop, and Solaris X86 isalot less than the equivalent RH/SUSE and Sun’s new boxen are less than Dell. Dell Linux support, what’s that? What is the world coming to.
bill
hopefully, they will have the desktop INTEGRATED, my gnome install 2.4 on one comp and 2.5 on another mostly feel like its a bunch of progs thrown together and stamped with a “gnome” logo. copying can be a hassle even within gnome/gtk appps, differnt programs prefer to open urls in different browsers (yeah, i got mozilla, epiphany, firebird, opera and konqueror installed(dont ask why)).
what would be killer was if their desktop just WORKED.
what would be killer was if their desktop just WORKED.
That’s what they’re trying for, not only from the perspective of a single system but also within the context of a network environment with file sharing and groupware features. From most of the reviews it seems like they’ve done a relatively nice job.
I thought the price was $100/employee/year or $50/desktop/year depending on what suits you best.
And IMHO (if true) $50 per year for an OS that includes Star Office, other goodies and first class support, is not a bad deal at all.
Ok, what about the end user ‘re-training’? What about the custome in house written applications for Windows who will re-write those? What about migration costs, hardware compatitibility? What about end user data on their current workstations? The network and so on.
Some things in life are cheap and there is a reason. It would cost a fortune to change over 5000 workstations, not including laptops that would not function. I wonder if they pay for all the converting cost, re-writing apps and so on? Or do they go out and pick money from a tree?
sarah
How does Sun’s JDS stack up against the Suse/XD2 product? As a small business owner, I can put Suse/XD2 on as many machines as a want for very little cost. Why should I go to Sun’s JDS for $100 a machine?
As a small business owner, I can put Suse/XD2 on as many machines as a want for very little cost. Why should I go to Sun’s JDS for $100 a machine?
You shouldn’t. The product is called the “Java Enterprise System” for a reason… it’s designed for enterprise use, not for use by small businesses, or individuals.
>”Ok, what about the end user ‘re-training’?”
The GUI is supposed to work more or less like Windows to minimise that if thaths what you mean?
>”What about the custome in house written applications for >Windows who will re-write those?”
If the costs will be to high to port them then use one of manny the “emulator” programs out there.
>”What about migration costs, hardware compatitibility?”
Linux do is compatible with most hardware, but even if it wheren’t compatible with the hardware in question, it’s an added cost that will ony be noticed once.
Even if the initial cost is higher with the transition to SUN’s Java desktop, for many, the medium and long term cost won’t be.
“And IMHO (if true) $50 per year for an OS that includes Star Office, other goodies and first class support, is not a bad deal at all.”
Well, the only support is 60 days installation support. That is what gets me about the annual fee per machine, there is nothing else offered according to Sun. So my question is really what are we paying for if not support? The priviledge of having it installed?
And what are costs of moving to Longhorn going to be when that comes out? What were the costs of re-training between, say, Windows 98 with Office 97 and Windows/Office XP?
MS’s upgrade cycle guarantees that re-training costs will have to be borne continually. As computers develop, this will probably be the case no matter what OS a company uses (I think even the Linux desktop will need some at some point).
“And what are costs of moving to Longhorn going to be when that comes out? What were the costs of re-training between, say, Windows 98 with Office 97 and Windows/Office XP?”
Actually the cost of moving to Longhorn will be covered under the MS License, so companies are already paying to use it when it comes out. Re-training has been a no cost since Windows 98 as the OS and Apps have behaved pretty well the same.
Well, the only support is 60 days installation support. That is what gets me about the annual fee per machine, there is nothing else offered according to Sun.
Wrong, see http://www.sun.com/service/products/software/javaenterprisesystem/i… for the extensive services Sun provides with the Java Enterprise System
“Wrong, see http://www.sun.com/service/products/software/javaenterprisesystem/i….. for the extensive services Sun provides with the Java Enterprise System”
Thiose are not offered for the JDS under the annual fee. The JDS is a component of, but not covered under that cost. What I did miss is it does cover 1 year of maintenance and updates. From the FAQ:
14. Q.
What type of support will be offered for Java Desktop System?
A.
Release 1 of Java Desktop System will include the following support:
1 year maintenance & updates
60 day install & configuration support (for direct individuals only)
30 day StarOffice support (for direct individuals only)
Upgrades and limited technical support included
Online self-help:
Knowledge database access
Community forums
Documentation
System Administration portal
Premium add-on services will also be available for enterprises.
“Or does a reputable corporation like Sun Microsystems automaticly make better products because of what, their brand name?”
Bingo. Before the big boys like IBM jumped on the bandwagon all the trade rags relegated Linux to a hobbyist OS. After IBM throws millions around on marketing it’s suddenly a viable server OS.
Funny you bring up Linux considering that most SUN Employees were using Linux before IBM threw some fictional billion at the operating system.
SUN see the strength of their operating system on the server and if you look at the price, Solaris plus the Java Enterprise System comes out cheaper dollar for dollar than the other “enterprise ready” Linux distributions; Red Hat Enterprise and SuSE Enterprise.
The fact remains, business want support from an existing organisation. Sorry zealots and fanboys, companies want to know that when they find themselves in a pickle, they know there is going to be an expert on the end of the telephone line able to diagnose and mend any issues that may arise. They don’t CARE if it costs them $2000+, if the cost is beaten by improved reliability and efficiency resulting in lower running costs over the long term, that $2000+ is money well spent.
“Sun sells JDS for $100 per machine per year, or $150 per employee per year when paired with the rest of Sun’s enterprise software stack. Sun includes 60 days of installation and configuration support by phone or e-mail with purchase.”
What is with the $100/$150 per year stuff? I don’t understand redhat doing it, let alone sun. This puts it out of reach of most users. Still cheaper then Windows + Office, but those are a one time fee at least, not annually.
Wake up sunshine! are you enterprise, NO!!! Should SUN even *CARE* about you? heck no.
I am curious to see what they offer for that kind of money. If it is the same as RedHat, I personally will have to just stay with SuSE, since for $80 period I can install on as many machines I want to. The support is the same for SuSE. RedHat at least gives a year of support for the product, which is what they are charging for. What is Sun charging annually per machine for??
http://www.sun.com/2003-0930/feature/
“What’s even more incredible is that all of this costs just $100 per employee per year, based on the number of employees in your company. So guess what? You’re going to save a ton of money on buying and auditing software licenses. You’re not going to need an army of global services people to integrate it either. We’ve done the integration for you. And implementation is a snap, too, with a single installer and automatic quarterly upgrades for the whole thing.”
Mate, get a clue, stop talking and start reading.
This is what pisses me off about rabbid anti-SUN Linux fanboys. People without a clue sitting on their home PC thinking that because they and their basement based network isn’t targeted, obviously it is too expensive.
$100 per-employee, per year is so cheap, the only logical reasoning for NOT moving to it would because you have software that is not available.
Ok, what about the end user ‘re-training’?
Give them a book and video kit then inform them that within 3-4months they’re expected to learn the required skills, if they fail, they’re fired.
What about the custome in house written applications for Windows who will re-write those?
Either re-write them using Java, which is a pretty basic language or simply run them under wine ensuring you have the correct VBRUN DLLs installed, assuming you don’t dive too much into the win32 gory pieces, which would be highly unlikely.
Considering that most custom written applications are mearly neat front ends to a database, there are tonnes of pre-written templates out there which would allow you to plop in changes and compile.
What about migration costs, hardware compatitibility?
Considering that the average corporate desktop is VERY basic in the hardware parts department, the whole thing should be easily supported.[/i]
What about end user data on their current workstations? The network and so on.
Why would users save data on their desktop when the whole of the information should reside on a server. As for the server itself, what is so hard about backing the whole data up on a tape then transferring it accross or simply copying the information from one server to another via a fast network connection.
Some things in life are cheap and there is a reason. It would cost a fortune to change over 5000 workstations, not including laptops that would not function. I wonder if they pay for all the converting cost, re-writing apps and so on? Or do they go out and pick money from a tree?
Funny how I see the so-called “poverty struck” businesses still about to smooze with customers and waste bucket loads of money on ineffective and pointless marketing YET when it comes to an important part of the over all business machine, they’re more than happy to skimp on spending the money and instead stick to the easy YET long term costly setup.
“As a small business owner, I can put Suse/XD2 on as many machines as a want for very little cost. Why should I go to Sun’s JDS for $100 a machine?”
You shouldn’t. The product is called the “Java Enterprise System” for a reason… it’s designed for enterprise use, not for use by small businesses, or individuals.
I think a better reply would actually to point out the fact that businesses with less than 1000 employees do not deal with SUN directly and instead work with SUN partners who maybe able to hammer out a cheaper per-employee deal based on the number employees of that organisation.
It is funny to see that we have people here who have absolutely NO concept of “negotiation”. Everything is up for negotiation, whether it be the price of a car or in this case, how much is paid for each employee.
Also, this cost also include regular updates, upgrades and support when required. About the only thing I see that SUN could do better is get more ISV’s on board by approaching these companies and paying for the porting of applications. Australia for example, all they would need to do is get MYOB and the Australian Tax department software ported and they could easily win over 85% of businesses with little to no effort.
1) I run MacOS X not Linux. Even if I were running and x86, I would be using FreeBSD with either KDE or GNOME.
2) The only “cons” were “Will lack the breadth of precompiled binaries that more popular distributions enjoy; instant messaging client doesn’t work with MSN; final build had a few interface bugs.” Considering that SUN’s main focus is interaction between employees via the SUN Instant Messaging server using the JXTA protocol, the lack of MSN support is very low on the priority list.
3) The Red Hat CEO clearly stated that Linux wasn’t ready for generic home desktop use but instead ready for the corporate desktop market where an inhouse support infrastructure exists.
4) Is “homo” meant to try and offend me? do you have a gaydar installed on your computer? how did you “detect” my sexual orientation with out even me saying a thing? Thanks for calling me a “homo”, as if I couldn’t work it out myself.
5) The last time I used the Shell was a little over 3 months ago. The shell is there to be used as an option, just like the GUI.
CCC, I am currently tasked with deploying a pilot of over 1,000 users of this desktop. Sarah’s comments are EXACTLY the issues with which I am currently grappling.
Perhaps you need to spend a little more time dealing with large corporate computing environments to appreciate the problems inherent in replacing a large, deeply rooted Windows environment.
Remember, it isn’t just the technology, but the people and processes as well.
CCC, I am currently tasked with deploying a pilot of over 1,000 users of this desktop. Sarah’s comments are EXACTLY the issues with which I am currently grappling.
However, Sarah isn’t a real person. Everytime JDS or Linux on the corporate comes up, Sarah or one of his/her other handles comes out of the wood works claiming that he/she is a expert and these are some real questions. These aren’t real questions, they’re mearly buttons pushed by an individual hoping that someone like me would get annoyed.
Perhaps you need to spend a little more time dealing with large corporate computing environments to appreciate the problems inherent in replacing a large, deeply rooted Windows environment.
My comment about firing people would be a dream come true, however, in reality, most people are either quite happy or simply willing to learn a new skill. It is like a machinist being given a new piece of equipment to produce something. If the person sees that they can do more with less work, then they’ll be more than happy to use it.
Remember, it isn’t just the technology, but the people and processes as well.
Which is why if it were me, since the whole license is based on “per employee” meaning in theory one could encourage employees to bring in their computer and for the IT staff to install JDS so that the employee can use it at home and at work thus becoming more familar with it by using on a regular basis.
Asking what distinguishes Sun’s Linux is a bit disingenuous and certainly unrealistic.
Because of the GPL, it’s impossible for any Linux distribution to maintain a real advantage over other distributions. Code that isn’t GPL’d attracts the wrath of ideologues, but distribution-specific code tends to deal with installation and administration. To my knowledge, no distribution pays developers to create distribution-specific applications.
So, if one distribution offers something better in terms of ease of instalation, ease of use, display quality, etc., the only thing preventing other distributions from begin just as good is inertia.
That’s how software is sold in the enterprise and corporate market, which is Sun’s real target. Corporations with hundreds or thousands of desktops to support don’t want to buy truckloads of shrinkwrapped retail boxes. They want to sign a single contract with a reputable vendor to build and support all those desktops. That’s what Sun is offering.
I’m sure Sun would never be in the Linux business if they had to depend on the retail market for sales. It’s clear that retail Linux sales to consumers cannot sustain a business.
Sun Java Desktop with Linux kernel is first brandname Linux distribution in the world.
Soon will be Sun Java Desktop with Solaris. It will be in next year.
“Mate, get a clue, stop talking and start reading.
This is what pisses me off about rabbid anti-SUN Linux fanboys. People without a clue sitting on their home PC thinking that because they and their basement based network isn’t targeted, obviously it is too expensive.”
And attitudes like that is what I hate about rabid SUN fanboys. I am looking at this for a Corporate network, and have read. You need to read a bit yourself, as Sun has said, as I posted earlier as well, that the $100/year is for updates and maintenance. The Enterise Java System Support is NOT provided at that cost of $100/year. That support costs extra per machine.
Here’s what I think.
Sun selling their Linux distro cheaper than RedHat and SuSE will hurt the sales of both RedHat and SuSE. Sun will in-turn give this money to their shareholders instead of actively developing Linux like both RedHat and SuSE have been doing.
All the while we’ll keep supporting Sun because we know they love us (and our hard work) so much.
But I could be wrong.
And attitudes like that is what I hate about rabid SUN fanboys. I am looking at this for a Corporate network, and have read. You need to read a bit yourself, as Sun has said, as I posted earlier as well, that the $100/year is for updates and maintenance. The Enterise Java System Support is NOT provided at that cost of $100/year. That support costs extra per machine.
Did you even bother reading this:
http://www.sun.com/service/products/software/javaenterprisesystem/i…
This completely refutes your claims. You have not provided any URLs to back up your claim, you have simply spouted FUD about Sun’s support (or lack thereof, as so you claim). These support services are for all software provided as part of the Java Enterprise System, *including* the JDS.
Some examples of the software support alone:
* 12×5 extended local business hours coverage
* Four-hour telephone response time for urgent calls
* 3-4+ authorized contacts, depending on membership level
* Unlimited technical support incidents
* Java Enterprise System software enhancement releases, upgrades and patches
* Ability to rate the priority of the support requests
* Incident tracking through the Sun[tm] Online Support Center
* 7×24 access to online technical knowledge database
* SunSpectrum InfoExpress[tm] newsletter
But don’t you get it? Linux evolves by those individual corporations making changes that the others, their competition, did not. So I think it is extremely important to know what changes Sun has been making. Else they could very easily use this technology to make a profit without contributing hardly anything back.
Nothing wrong with that, I mean, that is the American way afterall, but I would just like to know the truth.
Is Sun really developing for Linux or just exploiting the Linux community for a profit?
There’s nothing wrong with exploitation when you’re the one doing the exploiting. I’m sure Sun’s shareholders agree. But I also thinks its very important for the exploited to know how they are being exploited. But maybe I’m just talking smack, maybe Sun really does want people to adopt Linux and improve this fine OS. I don’t know. Do you?
>It is funny to see that we have people here who have
>absolutely NO concept of “negotiation”. Everything is up
>for negotiation, whether it be the price of a car or in
>this case, how much is paid for each employee.
Sure, “everything” is up for negotiation, but buying a car is different from, say, buying a DVD player. Go argue with the “associate” at Best Buy – that just isn’t how their sales model works.
I think most of the readers here just don’t realize that this is how enterprise software and hardware is done. And why would they, unless they’re a buyer or work in large enterprise IT?
People also don’t seem to be clear that JDS is an enterprise solution. Folks, this isn’t for that Dell in your basement. There are better options for that.
>Is Sun really developing for Linux or just exploiting the
>Linux community for a profit?
“Exploit” suggests an unjust utilization. Put all the other arguments and meta-arguments aside. If Sun is using open software in accordance with the licensing terms set by the creators of that software, what’s unjust about that? Where’s the exploitation, in that sense? The code is out there to be used, so long as you’re willing to follow the license rules. There’s no evidence that Sun isn’t following the rules. That’s the deal; that’s the convenant.
Now, in the larger sense… Is Sun’s strategy for the future really based around Linux? Are they really committed to open source? I don’t even think Sun really knows.
But exploitation? Nah. That’s just rhetoric.
“Did you even bother reading this:
http://www.sun.com/service/products/software/javaenterprisesystem/i…..
This completely refutes your claims. You have not provided any URLs to back up your claim, you have simply spouted FUD about Sun’s support (or lack thereof, as so you claim). These support services are for all software provided as part of the Java Enterprise System, *including* the JDS.”
I have read, and understand that those support services are available at extra cost. That means not included for the $100/year per employee. Here is the URL explaining what is available for the JDS.
http://wwws.sun.com/software/javadesktopsystem/faq.html
This is for the JDS, NOT the Java Enterprise System. Be sure to read the part about what support is included. Thanks.
And you still don’t get it… you are comparing the support provided when you purchase the Java Desktop System as a standalone product to the support you get with the Java Desktop System when purchased as a part of the Java Enterprise System. The software support links I’ve pasted are for all software which is part of the Java Enterprise System, including the Java Desktop System. So no, Sun isn’t charging you $100/employee/year and providing no support, as you seem to claim. Please note the relevant “for direct individuals only” sections of the FAQ.
“And you still don’t get it… you are comparing the support provided when you purchase the Java Desktop System as a standalone product to the support you get with the Java Desktop System when purchased as a part of the Java Enterprise System. The software support links I’ve pasted are for all software which is part of the Java Enterprise System, including the Java Desktop System. So no, Sun isn’t charging you $100/employee/year and providing no support, as you seem to claim. Please note the relevant “for direct individuals only” sections of the FAQ.”
My company would be purchasing the JDS as “Standalone Systems”, considered for “Direct Individuals Only” and not part of the java enterprise system as we do not plan to replace our current server software, which is not Sun. So I am looking at what it is I will get, not what I would if I were to purchase something else. Once it becomes available and I talk to Sun, then maybe it will be clearer to me. It could be I am not following the whole thing correctly, and will not deny that at all. You are correct in your statement about my comparison for the reasons listed above.