In the steps of OSX’s QuartzExreme, freedesktop.org’s new X and Longhorn, PalmSource seems to be seeking an engineer to take on “responsibility for a new high-performance graphics system, based on OpenGL and Postscript.” According to this bit of information it might be safe to assume that a future PalmOS will be basing its UI on GL.
PalmSource Prepares OpenGL-based GUI?
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I heard they will call that Picasso :}
interesting. is that not exactly what be inc was working on prior to the acquisition? I am not saying they are getting this from be just that they are continuing the same direction in this case.
I really believe that palm will make a go at laptops (since they said they are considering it) this could help there and in other efforts. A palm laptop would be awesome for those of us that value battery life.
> really believe that palm will make a go at laptops (since they said they are considering it) this could help there and in other efforts. A palm laptop would be awesome for those of us that value battery life.
1) What processor would it use?
2) What OS would it run?
3) If it’s not Wintel, and I doubt that’s a PowerPC/OSX, what applications will be availabe for it/
i was just kidding about picasso.. sadely
What are the feelings out there in regards to DirectX. I be a Mac user but I do use WinXP at woik… openGL just seems more logical and universal between all platforms. Now, with talk of PalmSource utilizing openGL & postcript(pdf) I’d think there’d be a push to get away from M$’s proprietary push to make a STANDARD that they are in control of (WMA is an example too).
not tryin’ to start a riot, I just wanna know some opinions of others
Jb
It sounds to me more like they want a guy who can write them a gaming/multimedia API. What’s the sense of burning battery time on your 3D core if you can avoid it?
-Erwos
2) What OS would it run?
errr, palmOS
OpenGL definately benifets from having Microsoft around. The breakdown:
– OpenGL tends to be better designed. The ARB is more conservative about adding features, and keeps the API elegant, high-level, and orthogonal. In contrast, Microsoft has had to back-pedal on some aspects of DirectX’s design, especially the whole “direct” part. Modern hardware doesn’t like some of the stuff Direct3D let you do (like directly accessing the framebuffer or z-buffer), which is part of the reason they folded DirectDraw into D3D, and dropped some troublesome features in new versions.
– Direct3D tends to push the feature envelope. Microsoft is the one that really pushes hardware manufacturers to implement new features, by putting them in DirectX before anybody has them in hardware. In contrast, the ARB tends to be more reactive, putting features into OpenGL after they have proved themselves to be solid.
– OpenGL has to cater to a number of different users, not just gamers. Its still the only real high-end 3D API, so the ARB has to be more careful about its evolution.
– OpenGL is cross platform. This is the kicker. Outside games, which tend to be platform-specific, a lot of 3D software actually has to be cross-platform. In particular, they have to support UNIX (now also Linux) and MacOS, because of their huge installed bases in the media and engineering markets.
Overall, I think there is a nice duality between Direct3D and OpenGL. I certainly wouldn’t want D3D to go away, because that would remove competition for the ARB, and slow down the pace of graphics hardware advances. On the other hand, OpenGL is a better API overall, especially if you take into account that, game development cycles are not amenable to the break-neck development pace of Direct3D. Doom III, for example, is still mostly designed for GeForce-2 class hardware. It will require the sheer performance of GeForce FX-level chips, but doesn’t use a lot of the pixel and vertex shader voodoo that they offer. Thus, what you end up with is that, even if D3D has the new features first, buy the time developers get around to using them, OpenGL has support too.
I wonder if they have their eye on the tablet PC market too? I think it would be great to see a tablet PC running an enhanced version of the Palm OS (enhanced, as in additional and more powerful graphics and multimedia capability). Whatever their plans, I’m almost certain they must be looking to expand the range of devices the Palm OS can run on.
1) What processor would it use?
Probably a StrongARM of some kind. I don’t know if Palm’s codebase is portable, but the architecture has the oomph for a low-power, low-weight laptop, and Palm already knows how to deal with it.
2) What OS would it run?
Presumably an uprated PalmOS that knows how to take advantage of goodies that can’t fit in a PDA. The PDAs could easily accept a version of the OS compiled with all of the extraneous stuff left out.
3) If it’s not Wintel, and I doubt that’s a PowerPC/OSX, what applications will be availabe for it
Anything that an run on a Palm PDA, plus applications that can take advantage of additional screen real estate.
Or they could dust off BeOS and continue development of it, and gain access to all of the desktop-oriented software written for that platform, and the developers who wrote/write apps for it.
Correct me if I’m wrong but, I thought the various CPUs used in Palm devices to-date do NOT have an FPU. Floats are the dominant data type in OpenGL is it not? At least now Palm is using a 32-bit ARM CPU so it might be possible to emulate a float data type… I don’t know I’m just scratching my head on this one.
1) What processor would it use?
Probably a StrongARM of some kind. I don’t know if Palm’s codebase is portable, but the architecture has the oomph for a low-power, low-weight laptop, and Palm already knows how to deal with it.[i]
Actually the XScale would make more sense. If you remember from this article: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5249 there are computers based on the XScale CPUs, not just PocketPCs (the one in that article is a 600 MHz XScale + RiscOS machine).
[i]2) What OS would it run?
Presumably an uprated PalmOS that knows how to take advantage of goodies that can’t fit in a PDA. The PDAs could easily accept a version of the OS compiled with all of the extraneous stuff left out.
PalmOS… AKA BeIA?
this job listing is SEVERAL months old, and if i recall correctly it was already mentioned months ago on this site. Odd that it hasnt been filled. maybe no one is up for the political suicide of trying to do a reasonably competitive implementation on such limited resources. and even a decent 3d interface would have a hard time being more usable or efficient than a solid 2d
Isn’t OpenGL (and DirectX for that matter) a bit heavyweight for a lightweight device like a PDA? A tablet or laptop maybe.
“Isn’t OpenGL (and DirectX for that matter) a bit heavyweight for a lightweight device like a PDA? A tablet or laptop maybe.”
that is what i was thinking which is why i introduced the idea of a laptop push. But then again, palmsource is also targeting handheld gaming other visually demanded applications.
It depends on the hardware you use. Take a look at http://www.acceleon.com/
>>>”Isn’t OpenGL (and DirectX for that matter) a bit heavyweight for a lightweight device like a PDA? A tablet or laptop maybe.”
There is embedded OpenGL ES — which is for PDA’s, mobile phones and set-top boxes.
It’s well known that BeInc invested in new, optimized
hardware and software support for OpenGL. But I think
it got scrapped before it was fully completed.
AFAIK BeInc lost interest in OpenGL shortly after the
focus shift to BeIA. And I never even heard the slightest
rumors about Be working on a GL based GUI framework.
Instead they worked on a GUI based on something like DHTML.
I was under the impression that OpenGL isn’t really useful for 2D stuff, or at least, that’s not its strong point or target. I can’t imagine 3D being of any use on PalmOS at all except for gaming.
>>>I was under the impression that OpenGL isn’t really useful for 2D stuff, or at least, that’s not its strong point or target. I can’t imagine 3D being of any use on PalmOS at all except for gaming.
I think that the most likely use for Palm is similar to Apple’s Quartz Extreme.
hehe … well those BeOS developers they got they proly don’t have OpenGL experience I’d say
This makes me consider if PalmSource might have aspirations for the desktop…
Several people have commented on whether PDAs and other light- weight systems will be able to handle OpenGL. Though they currently won’t be able to, future devices will be very powerful and Palm seems to be investing in this vision for the future.
I doubt Palmsouce has plans for the desktop because the Palm OS is not ideal for a desktop system. It was built specifically for devices like PDAs and that’s where it should stay.
that be kool if they get into the desktop os
mmm beos
Why does everyone jump to the conclusion that Palm is thinking of creating a OpenGL/PS layer akin to Quartz or Display PostScript? That seems like a helluva leap of logic to me. More likely Palm is interested in getting some standard 2D and 3D APIs set up for their platform. Currently, just about ever y different OEM has its own API for displaying beyond 160×160, for doing hardware accel 2D or 3D, etc etc. I think PalmSource is just doing what they should’ve done a long time ago, making sure that PalmOS will continue to scale in the future; it hasn’t done a good job with this so far. Coding from a non-square screen is kind of a pain, and it’s different for each model in some cases…
I doubt Palmsouce has plans for the desktop because the Palm OS is not ideal for a desktop system. It was built specifically for devices like PDAs and that’s where it should stay.
Where does it say anywhere that this system is for PalmOS?
let’s recall a certain os who’s rights where sold to palm : beos
..and what did it have directly embedded into the OS? openGL..
hmm
Today’s systems can/could handle OpenGL. What was the first computer you had that supported OpenGL? In my case, it was a machine that was slower than my current handheld, which has a 400 MHz XScale PXA255. I still run UT and both Quake 2 and 3 quite well on a 350 MHz K6-2 with an 8MB RivaTNT. Sure, 350 MHz K6-2 > 400 MHz XScale PXA255, but the gap is closing. I wouldn’t be surprised if more of the newer handhelds will start coming with hardware support for this; I’ve already owned two PDAs with one ATI Imageon chip or another.
The Sharp Zaurus C760 has an ATI Imageon 100, although it is very poorly supported by the OS. (Sharp won’t give anyone a good library, and ATI won’t share the specs with the OZ/OPIE developers so that they can) It doesn’t support OpenGL or 3D acceleration, but it does support hardware MPEG4 decoding and 2D accel- and it’s still has a fast CPU.
Then there are the Sigmarion III (a really nice non-PocketPC WinCE.NET 4.1 machine) and the TapWave Zodiac, both which support 2D and 3D accel and have an ATI Imageon W4200 chip, with a whopping 8 MB video RAM. It doesn’t have hardware OpenGL support in like most desktop cards, but between the fast CPU and the fast graphics chip, someone could whip up a very fast OpenGL library indeed… On the Sig3 you can use DirectDraw, though no Direct3D.
Quartz Extreme? Are you guys serious? Have you ever used a PalmOS device?
I read the description and all, but some part of me still hoped to find screenshots.
Keep in mind, Palm OS 6.0 is going to be completed according
to Palm within a month or so. I have also seen Palm OS 6.0 on
reference design hardware and it does not use OpenGL or even
Postscript.
Sean
I think that PalmSource has just been waiting for the time to strike with BeOS under their belt. Things in the desktop arena are starting to heat up…They probably want a piece of that action with “an OS of the future”.
i agree sort of.
I think palm os 6 will probably use a lot of be technology and they’ll just keep expanding the devices offered until they offer a desktop so maybe the migration will be like this
pda > larger pda > web tablet > mini-notebook > regular notebook > desktop.
no point in reintroducing be os and having two product lines. they probably designed palm os 6 with an eye for expanding into larger devices and will slowly add features to enable that. the end product will probably share quite a bit with beos in terms of concept/tech but will not be beos.
1) What processor would it use?
2) What OS would it run?
3) If it’s not Wintel, and I doubt that’s a PowerPC/OSX, what applications will be availabe for it
Windows, x86, and Wintel. They really have little choice in this regards, they may as well try to be like Sony – combining the good qualities of Apple and the good qualities of Wintel. I mean, I don’t mind a laptop as good as an iBook, the same price as iBook, runs more software, and has two buttons (or more) for its trackpad….
If they do decide to make their own platform (hint hint: BeOS… okay, okay, long shot), they would have a really hard time. It was easier for PocketPC/Windows CE/whatever-they-are-naming-it-now to capture market in the PDA business because other than critical apps, moving would be a breeze. I mean, how many apps like Photoshop, AutoCAD, and the likes are available on PDAs in the first place?
I mean, PDAs has always, or maybe until recently, had been marketed to complement the PC/Mac.
Hmmm, looking at the classifies again, why do people assume it is a UI system ala Longhorn or Quartz? It is probably games-related, which is becoming more and more a hot field with devices like N-Gage coming out. Palm probably wants to enter that market. Or maybe not. I don’t know.
i think it is pretty safe to assume that palmone is not going to support microsoft.
I don’t think you’ll see a laptop all that soon. it will take some time and hopefully the port of some applications.
i wonder if palm can introduce an intermediary step. Could they build a device (perhaps a cradle) that will let you output an existing palm device to a larger screen. Does one exist?
this is really what i see as the future, phones, pdas, etc that also output to a normal screen perhaps via a cradle and which allow you to do basic computing from the small device.
What about BeOS running on Palm hardware? The Palms finally have the brute force to run it (200mhz anyone?)…
Mmmmm, BeOS in the palm of me hand…
(Or BeOS Tablets? Hmmm? Hmm?)