In an open letter, Jonathan Schwartz offers IBM advice, that IBM should use Sun’s Java Desktop System in their move to Linux. The letter is rather no holds barred and cheeky advertising for Sun’s JDS and some snubs behind the back for IBM’s Linux strategy, but it’s an interesting read nonetheless.
Schwartz Advises IBM: IBM’s Desktop Options include JDS
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Eugenia Loli
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Would have been more interesting had Sun dropped the cheap shot approach, and just went with a serious proposal.
They might have won a department or two.
maybe it’s an american spelling?
—
Well it would be nice if all the Tier 1 vendors got behind the same distro… but it would be a lot nicer (IMHO) if that distro was KDE based.
Or why haven’t any companies pushed out *BSD distros? Linux and *BSD are close enough to one or the other. Think what FreeBSDE could do with the help of Sun et al.
I’m a Java developer who used to be a fan of Sun for a while, but Mr. Schwartz’s sayings are completely non sense. IBM is one of those who has had great impacts on Linux and has developed several open source tools for Linux taken from its JFS to the enhancements in the Linux kernel. I think the IBM’s strategy is completely clear.
Sun, giving *advise* about IBM’s Linux strategy??? That’s comical? The same company who supports Linux only on alternate Tuesdays, or Mondays and Thursdays if there is sufficient solar flare activity?
There are a couple of good deals in there ($50 per desktop — that’s a pretty nice figure) but it is offset by a lot of hot air.
Why would Sun do that, everyone knows that IBM has their own Linux distro in the works called Blue Linux — for now — but IBM is really keep the lid on the project and what Blue Linux is going to use and whatnot.
Michael Lauzon, Founder
The Quill Society
http://www.quillsociety.org/
[email protected]
Sun is the only tier 1 vendor with end-to-end support for linux. You can get it on the desktop, for high end servers, the complete solution including hardware with excellent support befitting a teir 1 vendor. IBM/HP/novell et all do not have this end-to-end strategy, so in this sense Sun are unique, and their creation of such OSS projects as OpenOffice and their enormous aid to Gnome and the likes may be about to pay off for them.
I guess I just don’t understand your Linux strategy.
Makes sense, half of your employer’s public statements haven’t understood your own GNU/Linux strategy, either.
IBM has been slow, vocal, and deliberate about it’s strategy. Sun has been over the map, all-speed-ahead one day, knocking it for Solaris the next. And they’re giving advice.
… What color is the sky in their world?
All this advice and posturing from a guy who said a couple months back, “Let me be clear, we [Sun] don’t have a Linux strategy.”
If anything, IBM would use Novell’s stuff rather than Sun’s. There are a lot wholes in Sun’s product offering and none of Sun’s stuff runs on IBM manufactured hardware (power4/5, mainframe, etc.)
Also, as mentioned above by others, IBM has their own desktop in the works. I’ve used Sun’s desktop and I wasn’t very impressed…it really is no better than Xandros’ or Ximian’s current Gnome offering and in many ways Xandros and Ximian kick JDS to the curb. Wait 6-8 months, I expect Novell/SuSE will release a distro (w/ some IBM swag as well) to top all distro’s for the enterprise desktop market.
Sun is the only tier 1 vendor with end-to-end support for linux. You can get it on the desktop,
Last time I checked, Sun doesn’t sell desktops. Also, last time I checked, Sun’s hardware product lineup is not nearly as broad in scope as IBM’s (I don’t think Sun sells any laptops, either).
But since I’m nice enough to give the benefit of the doubt, what part of Sun’s end-to-end linux support covers one of these?
http://www.sun.com/servers/highend/sunfire15k/index.xml
to be understood as totally tongue-in-cheek or,
Schwartz had a few too many drinks when it was composed and somehow got it past his PR people.
Cheers
Have a read of this:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/35062.html
Its remarkable how linux zealots moan about Sun because it has the temerity to sell something else that isn’t linux, as well as linux itself. We see this all the time – the linux zealots moan about Micrsoft for wanting to make the IT world a monoculture, but what they really want is for everything, everywhere to run linux, nomatter how illsuited to the job linux may be (in their eyes, linux is the perfect OS). Hence, when Sun dares to sell Solaris as well as linux, and to keep Solaris for tasks it is clearly far better suited for, such as 32proc Sparc machines, where Linux is clearly inferior, they go apocalyptic with rage. “Sun shouldn’t sell anything but linux! They must hate linux to not be completely behind it 100% and abandoning all other false OSs!”
Of course, that Sun has enormously contributed to linux, giving it its office solution and hugely helping Gnome and then being the only teir 1 vendor to offer it for businesses on the desktop, thus doing more to make it suitable for the corporate desktop than *any other company*, they get pilloried. Its very strange, and certainly shows the huge amounts of hatred and ingratitude among linux zealot extremists.
You have any data to back up that assertion? People are bitching at Sun not because they support both Linux and Solaris (clue: Linux zealots love IBM even though they support both AIX and Linux!) but because Sun is being very wishy-washy about their support. First they say that Linux has no place on the server. Then they say that Sun has “no Linux strategy.” Then they offer Linux desktops and servers! Its the lack of commitment one way or another thats pissing people off, not the fact that they aren’t throwing themselves completely at Linux.
No it’s how Sun goes about selling Linux, the company is so full of contridictions. They say that they will sell you Linux but they don’t think you should be buying it. However then they go make a deal with China for Linux workstations. It seems to be that they have trouble making up their mind on if they like Linux or they don’t. I would not wanted to be buying from a compnay that has such problems because I don’t know if they are going to continue selling the product or stop.
Since when?
Actually, everybody does not know that IBM has a linux distribution in the works. It is rumored, and only IBM knows for sure.
“Although nobody has been able to smuggle out a single screenshot of the top-secret IBM Linux desktop operating system (OS) — often referred to as “Blue Linux” — I have friends who have seen it.”
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/ZDM/ibm_linux_commentary_pcm…
So it is a rumor so far. Maybe you should be a little more careful about spreading rumors as facts.
could be real, could be fake. could be some old, something noew, something borrowed, something urrrr blue? hell at least we;ve got some blurry supposed shots of nessie. until i see a preview/review/screenshot/PR statement of blue linux i’m filing it w/ “bsd is dying.”
It seems the tail *does* wag the dog, after all.
Jonathan Schwartz just comes off like an idiot every time he opens his mouth. I cant imagine why they thought this letter would instill interest, sympathy or enthusiasm for Sun.
Sun have an excellent line of high-powered servers, with an OS tuned to extract reliability and performance from the hardware. They are a major player in the fininacial, scientific, government sectors, and more power to them.
However, on the desktop, Sun have failed:
1. To make Solaris an attractive option in the workstation/desktop arena going forward, despite having access to large development resource , and all the technologies that their competitors have been able to leverage to provide a real desktop *NIX solution (e.g. Apple w/ OpenSTEP)
2. To bring their thin client strategy to fruition. I’m sorry, but when a company goes absolutely gung ho on insisting that Java Stations, then Sun Rays etc. are the blueprints for corporate desktop computing utopia, then turn around and start peddling fat-client x86 boxes, with an OS/application suite that abandons everything they have done on their Java desktop strategy before now, well, I have to wonder what they are/were/will be smoking.
3. To produce a workable Java implementation for the desktop. Nobody likes AWT/Swing apps. These toolkits are decent designs hobbled with a horrible implementation. Calling their product the ‘Java Desktop System’ is stupid, since anyone who has used Java on the desktop has almost certainly had to deal with sluggish, ugly applications.
There is no ‘Java Desktop’. The ‘Java Desktop’ is no frickin good. Why not? I can only speculate that it’s because Sun didnt think it was important or useful to make Java desktop applications perform well.
4. To communicate any kind of coherent strategy at all. Sun’s PR is a sideshow. I laugh at Jonathan Schwartz. the guy obviously isn’t serious, Sun would be better off hiring Ronald McDonald to espouse their strategy or lack of it. I certainly dont feel any desire to go on online forums and bash McDonalds’ clown mascot, but Schwartz, he is practically begging for the flames. Jeesus, next they’ll be hiring Darl McBride as VP of Technology.
5. Why, and I mean *WHY*, if Sun are going to produce a ‘Java Desktop System’, does their own Office Suite not even use the native widget set on the platform??
I would have to speculate that it is because at the time Sun was turning the old StarOffice into OpenOffice, they had not the faintest goddamn clue what they would be doing 1,2 or 5 years from then.
I dont think they have the faintest clue what they’ll be doing 1,2 or 5 years from now.
They made their choice, and their choice was to stick their fingers in their ears and yell ‘LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU’ when it came to desktop computing past the early 90s.
This post is overwhelmingly negative – but I fail too see what kind of positive spin you can put on Sun’s desktop track record.
I guess this is the problem Schwartz is struggling with which is why he has to resort to petty name-calling and hypocrisy to make his point.
It is quite possible that there is an internal Blue Linux project. But if there is a Blue Linux it is a very quiet project, even to IBMers. There was a standard Linux layout used internally by IBM, but to my knowledge it was not intended to ever by a commercial product line. I kind of doubt that IBM will release a Linux, it is not really in their best interest. A Linux distro is a margin business at best and the profit they would see from it would be insignificant compared to hardware and WebSphere product line sales. IBM could perhaps profit by setting up Tier 1 level support for an existing distro, but you don’t have to make a distro to support it.
Sun wants money. Schwartz hates IBM, he wants them to dieee… I don’t particularly like IBM either, this whole SCO vs. IBM dosent change my whole idea about them either. I can go say “YEAH IBM ROCKS YEAH LINUX IS THE COOLEST” but you dont see me doing that. I would like to see IBM win but it dosent change my perception. I just use whats cheap and easy and stable and supported. IBM fails in most software they create or they kill it off in some pyschotic way (OS/2?) I think IBM has been successful in the Java field that sun put out for them. Sun plans to move off of linux onto Solaris in the future anway. Soon you’ll get a linux desktop alternative that has some power (Solaris x86 is slow compared to SPARC though, very VERY slow, maybe that will change). He’s playing PR probably. He wants to think that Sun is open and happy after they go bash all these companies repeatedly. Then again, when it comes down to it they just want profitability.
Go on, bash sun all you want, none of you know sun good enough to bash them, you either love IBM, you Love linux (although linux rivals solaris), or something else. They are just a great company that puts out great products and they want to make some $$$ like everyone else.
I was always under the impression IBM was staying out of the actual distro business too. Part of the problem is IP related, and part of the issues may be anti-trust related. IBM has seemed to want to let other companies handle Linux development like SuSe and Red Hat, that’s who IBM has partnered with for their server support.
With recent developments in the linux field, I’d see them going with SuSe & Novell. That’s a great combo to win back A LOT of customers from the “old school” IBM days. It’s better from IBMs standpoint to not get directly involved in distros…so they don’t look like the “big, bad wolf”.
It’s amazing what a little kid called, Linux, can do to an entire industry of respectable players.
And how much is Sun paying this gentleman to state that they are the number
one Linux distribution when they aren’t even in the top 20 (distrowatch.com).
Even the Lindows guy with the deep pockets has more credibility.
With respect, I’m not sure that Distrowatch rankings -useful though they may be in their own way- are reliable markers of the extent to which any particular brand of Linux has made progress in the enterprise world.
Did someone just call SUN Linux’ best friend? IBM has contributed and is still contribution more to Linux than SUN would ever dream of both publicly and in private. Of the top of my head, there are over 500 IBM developers researching and working on core parts of the Linux kernel. I’m sorry, but I doubt SUN has invested as much resources in Linux.
How about the multi millions dollar media advertisements and campaigns? If there is one thing Linux needs to accrue recognition, it Marketing. It seems to me again, IBM, not SUN, has publicly put there money where their mouth is.
In fact, of late, the only thing SUN and their fan boys are good at is running their mouth like an automobile skidding on polished ice. If you or anyone thinks OpenOffice.org or SUN HIG studies on GNOME, or JDS is all it takes to expose Linux and bring it to formidable heights, then I’d have to leave you in your fantasy land that SUN created for you.
Even without open letters, IBM’s actions are clear and obvious. IBM supports Linux and contributes immensely to it, financially, labor-wise, PR-wise etc. It is SUN and their fan boys who are confused and bitter. Low and behold, I don’t need a $$$$$$$ equipment to run a database server, courtesy of Linux.
SUN’s stance on Linux changes with the weather. Mood swings, premenstrual syndromes, and identity crisis dictate SUN’s strategy on Linux. To begin with, it is silly to pit Linux against Solaris. That’s a despicable business strategy. You’d never IBM, HP or SGI doing that. Linux should be used to compliment SUN’s product, not to compete against it. But obviously, SUN needs a clue. They are yet to demonstrate how Linux compliments their products and services, they are confused and they are confusing their consumers.
When SUN starts taking Linux seriously like IBM, Novell, Red Hat are doing, then perhaps the “linuxfanboys” will begin to take sun seriously. Hey, and no one is forcing them to contribute to Linux. To say they contribute more than any other institutions especially, IBM, SGI or Red Hat or the other communities is silly.
And you haven’t addressed any of my concerns. Where is rational for Linux? where is Websphere IDE for linux? where is Lotus Smartsuite for Linux? where is Lotus Notes for Linux? where is the option for Linux on the ThinkCentre online configuration options?
As I said before and I’ll say it again, the developers who contribute to OSS/Linux NEVER have any problems solving difficult and complex problems, OSS/Linux’s main problem is a lack of focus and developing user friendly, desktop orientated software. The problem with OSS/Linux has always been the soft side and not the logical. SUN’s expertise is in the soft/humand side of software and hence, concerntrates its efforts on improving OSS/Linux weakness rather than doing what IBM does and simply contributing to the logical side even more. Great, we’ll have the best kernel in 2 years but buggered if I can see IBM actually doing something about the desktop front.
You seem to be like most geeks, devoid of reality, devoid of what software is used for. Here is a hint, software isn’t used for mental masturbation, it is there to solve a problem. SUN’s goal is to bring OSS projects together, harmonise them into a cohesive product and then resell it. How is that any different to what Red Hat and SuSE/Novell/Ximian are mean to do?
As I have said, geeks fail to understand the soft side software. As soon as you put people into the computing equation, most geeks are clueless.
Oh and btw, SUN IS pushing JDS and unlike IBM, they don’t hide the fact that the future is Linux on the desktop. They actually demonstrate the software rather than hyping it. That is how they won the Chinese over, that is how they won Telstra Australia over. They didn’t do it through pointless and misguided advertising, they showed customers what can be done.
IBM can’t imdemnify customers because that means giving SCO some credibility. IBM wants to prove their case and thereby strengthen Linux.
SUN is searching for a Linux strategy. I believe that the strategy should be quality software. I the open source community had a knowledge base that focused on systems, than they would create demand for new hardware mechanisms that vendors like Sun could provide. Not to mention it would sober up the IT industry, which is very unstable.
SUN is searching for a Linux strategy. I believe that the strategy should be quality software. I the open source community had a knowledge base that focused on systems, than they would create demand for new hardware mechanisms that vendors like Sun could provide. Not to mention it would sober up the IT industry, which is very unstable.
How on gods green earth does one searth for a strategy when they already have one? SUN already has a strategy for Linux; Linux on the desktop. Plain and simple, are you really that ignorant to ignore the barrage of hype that has been pumped out of SUN over the last 6months?
Btw, why the heck should a person run Linux on the server? the whole PURPOSE of running Linux on the server was because commercial UNIXs were too expensive. Here we are, 4 years later and Solaris on x86 is cheaper than Red Hat Enterprise. So, where now is the justification for running Linux on the server? it no longer exists.
Solaris can run on x86, supports all the OSS applications you find on the net and most of all, it performs exceptionly well on SMP machines and systems that have very high demands.
Hi
IBM
0—–
JFS
NUMA
Volume management
campaigning
Novell parternship – 50 million dollars
OEM bundling
Tier architecture
Ecommerce on linux
websphere
SUN
——
NFS Design
Gnome
Openoffice
JDS
Sun has dirty hands, but I like this Schwartz character. He is making some noise, but a Java approach to Linux isn’t original. That approach is appropriate for Windows, but Linux requires …
IBM
—–
JFS
Did we need yet ANOTHER journalling filesystem? wouldn’t improving an existing file system be better? could you imagine the possibilities had the effort been put into ReiserFS for example.
NUMA
That was an IBM requested feature which included input from SGI. Since we’re talking about Linux on the desktop, this has little or no relivance.
Volume management
Replaced with LVM2. LVM2 was always going to be the logic choice. Yet another time money waster.
campaigning
What campaigning? I’ve yet to see one bloody ad over in Australia or New Zealand, and these are IBM heart lands! oh, and how interesting: “IBM recommends Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional”, yeap, that really shows they have confidence in Linux.
Novell parternship – 50 million dollars
How about the early Red Hat, SuSE partnerships SUN created?
OEM bundling
SUN does that too. Grab a Sun server and get Linux pre-installed if you want. Go a head, get your rocks off.
Tier architecture
What are you going on about “tier architecture”. Please expand on this, I’m “all ears”.
Ecommerce on linux
websphere
Funny, server but not the development tools. Shows the confidence IBM has for Linux as a viable development platform.
SUN
——
NFS Design
V3 and v4. Oh shock horror. How much have SUN spent on actually developing these protocols then graciously allowing people to implement it free of charge.
Gnome
Openoffice
Yeap, that cost $50million. There you go, thats the Novell “investment” ticked off. btw, just between you, me and the rest of the internet work, that $50million IBM “Invested” into Novell could be ANYTHING; meaning, it isn’t cash.
JDS
Oh, how convienent that you didn’t include the list of patches which they have given back to the community. Name one thing IBM has done for KDE or GNOME.
hi
ibm has contributed patches to the linux kernel and sun to gnome. btw sun hasnt done anything on the kernel or kde.
they both have contributed stuff.
jfs was needed so that aix users could share data between them.
tier – ibm.com/developerworks
ibm.com/linux
ibm has contributed patches to the linux kernel and sun to gnome. btw sun hasnt done anything on the kernel or kde.
they both have contributed stuff.
Why should SUN contribute patches to Linux? maybe they consider that what is being achieved without them is sufficient for what they have in mind for Linux.
Regarding KDE, why should SUN support KDE which plays no part in SUNs desktop strategy? SUN has already layed down their Linux desktop strategy, where is IBMs?
jfs was needed so that aix users could share data between them.
So in other words, server related thus making another thing you can take off the list. Remember, we’re talking about *LINUX ON THE DESKTOP*, *NOT* the server.
tier – ibm.com/developerworks
ibm.com/linux
Thats all very nice, one little problem, none of those important plugins are available for Websphere. Rational for one, and there has yet to be anything said if it is going to be ported to Linux or Java/SWT.
Shwartz’s letter is, I think, one way to bring across the point that Sun is in the non-Windows desktop bigtime. Red Hat and IBM may not like it, but Sun is saying “here we are”, and the more these other companies get upset about this letter, the more publicity the statement “here we are” gets. It’s about managing visibility, and if some people get upset a bit, so be it. The message is meant to bring across a very important point: Sun is serious about non-windows desktop and offers a complete solution:
– OS
– productivity applications
– RAD toolchain based on J2EE
– servers
– web, LDAP, messaging services
– enterprise storage management
– powerful support organization
And best of all:
– Sun is NOT affiliated, dependent or associated to Microsoft in ANY way. That measn commitment.
Hi
Please point to me the linux desktop strategy that sun supposedly has. bundling gnome on the name “java desktop system” and being a smart ass on ibm is not one
Johathan Schwartz is writing to Linus to explain why Sun should take over the whole Linux project …
Please point to me the linux desktop strategy that sun supposedly has. bundling gnome on the name “java desktop system” and being a smart ass on ibm is not one
Ye HA! yet another so-called MBA giving out advice on topics he knows nothing about.
Where is IBMs strategy? selling some servers loaded with linux is a strategy? well, if that is the case, SUN does have a strategy. How about IBM’s desktop strategy? SUN has one, you can look at the various white papers on their site justifying JDS.
Stop trying to make up stories to back up your beloved Linux. First you come here making stupid comments on things you know f*ck squat about then you hide behind an IP address with zero credibility. You’re like most posters here, one hit wonders who zoon through hoping to piss enough people off to get a reply.
IBM’s JVM runs on PPC Linux; Sun’s???
C’mon Sun, support blackdown and port hotspot to other CPUs. Then we can talk about Linux support. Linux != x86
I might just buy an iBook(PPC) and an iPaq(ARM/Xscale) if they run J2SE 1.4/1.5
Why should SUN support something that isn’t going to benefit them any way? If you haven’t realised, Apple and SUN are quite friendly, why would SUN do something to screw over a friend? name some people who will turn down being able to run Macromedia Studio MX or Adobe Creative Suite and instead butcher their Apple by installing Linux on it.
As for your iPaq, that is a vendor issue. There is nothing stopping Compaq/HP from providing a JVM. Then again, thats your problem, you decided to buy a iPaq when you could have bought a nice PalmOS or NEC Linux hand held which have JVMs available. If you want someone to blame for a JVM not being made available, blame Microsoft, they’re the provider of the embedded operating system.
How about Perl, IBM?
I’ve already got some generic objects written. It would take us weeks, maybe a couple months, with a team of engineers to build a completely self-sufficient network OS with the free software available today and the right application of intelligence.
Intelligence is something we all possess.
So why not work together to build something that works for everyone instead of play these games Sun pretends will make them wealthy. We don’t want to lock people in to one language, but Perl is a good language to use, like Python, to quickly bring a relatively bug-free product to market when you have no time.
What IBM needs is not JDS but an easy to administrate Linux OS designed with modularity, compatibility and upgradability in mind. Be the first to have a Linux distro that makes your network transparent, seamless, and a piece of cake to maintain. Or don’t. Its all you.
A number of people run Linux on apple hardware. As for Macromedia Studio MX or Adobe Creative Suite, if that’s the software YOU choose to run on YOUR mac, fine. It’s all about choice…
Plus there are issues of
(a) Apple orphaning your hardware
Java will run fine on a 32 bit PPC G3 for many years to come. But only on Linux. OS X support will dry up for the G3 soon (requiring altivec). The G4 will have longer life but only until the G5 has become entrenched in the low end.
There are already reports that Apple’s latest 1.4.2 runs only under 10.3, while some machines aren’t supported under 10.3 but work under 10.2
(b) Lag between vendor releases and Sun ports. IBM and Apple’s JVMs lag in terms of release. Naturally, Sun own the code… If Sun ported their Linux J2SDK to other CPU architectures then developers wouldn’t have to wait 6/12 months for an update.
Regarding Java on pocketpc linux, e.g. familiar I was talking about the standard edition, J2SE. While some J2ME variant may run on the palm you mentioned, it’s not the ‘full’ Java. a 400mhz machine with 128MB is powerful enough to run the standard edition.
> Why should SUN support something that isn’t going to benefit them any way?
I’d argue it does benefit them by increasing the ubiquity of Java deployment. The more supported platforms the better. Sun’s desktop strategy of write once run anywhere is hampered by software that essentially runs only on windows, x86 linux, solaris and mac