Deep inside a dealer lawsuit against Apple is a burning question: how do Apple’s retail stores account for what they pay for the Apple products they sell? The dealers behind the lawsuit believe they have the answer: that Apple is defrauding shareholders and misleading the public by misrepresenting the profitability of its stores. Substantiating their claim are thousands of product invoices says ThinkSecret.
Lawsuit Alleges Apple Retail Impropriety
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
They’ll have a hard time addressing these accusations. I hope this doesn’t hurt Apple too much, though I would also hope they’d learned their lesson.
Sue … its a common buisness plan.
Apple has run a deceptive business for a long time.
I remember at Rockwell, Apple shipped in a bunch of machines that had used and broken parts in them and then as they were found to be DOA, tried to stiff Rockwell for the bill.
And we won’t even mention Apple’s total fake supercomputer results. And the fact that Apple funded the whole thing so it basically turned out to be free for the university.
Apple is like the Gap. If they tell the truth about their products or company, no one would buy them. What’s to be surprised that Apple is using Enron-style accounting as well?
Apple is like the Gap. If they tell the truth about their products or company, no one would buy them. What’s to be surprised that Apple is using Enron-style accounting as well?
Actually, no. What the suit alleges is that profit made normally by the dealers and by Apple are combined into one account to beef up Apple Store’s standings – which was greeted with a lot of sceptism amongst Apple shareholders. The overall profits of Apple hardly, if not never, changes. Nothing Enron-style about that, which deals with fradualent accounting practices that boosts positive cash flow against negative cash flow so that overall profits look higher and the company seems to worth more than it actually is worth.
Which is not to say that Apple is doing something legal. What Apple told was that third-party dealers and Apple retailers pay the same price for each product, based on a volume tier. However, those invoices, if they are really true, proove that Apple actually charges significantly less for their products, which allows Apple retailers to garner a bigger profit margin.
“And we won’t even mention Apple’s total fake supercomputer results. And the fact that Apple funded the whole thing so it basically turned out to be free for the university.”
??
Do you mean the Virginia Tech cluster? I thought they paid std educational discount.
— “Do you mean the Virginia Tech cluster? I thought they paid std educational discount.”
They did, and the super computer ranking was performed by a reputable third party that handles such things. It couldn’t possibly have been faked. ‘The Teacher’ is the only one here who relies on deception to ‘sell’ his crap.
Even if his examples were true, that would be an extreamly low number for a tech company thats been around for well over 20 years, and only serves to make Apple look better. Especially compared to the alternative.
this set of lawsuit’s could prove interesting, If Apple Computer Inc. is found guilty of price fixing the resellers could be due a nice hunk of change.
THe best news is the court may force Apple to sell to their resellers at the same price they sell to their own stores. Can we say cheaper macs???
Sigh, Is’s always fun to watch a company get busted for something this stupid.
Donaldson
THe best news is the court may force Apple to sell to their resellers at the same price they sell to their own stores. Can we say cheaper macs???
===
No. Apple retailers have to agree to a stringent sent of requirement regarding pricing. If this is true, the retailers would be able to make more profit on the Macs (they could buy them from Apple at a lower price), but it would not let them sell them at a lower rate.
No. Apple retailers have to agree to a stringent sent of requirement regarding pricing. If this is true, the retailers would be able to make more profit on the Macs (they could buy them from Apple at a lower price), but it would not let them sell them at a lower rate.
====
So the resellers have agreed to minimum pricing?
I thought the Apple Stores in some cases had undersold the minimum pricing? Also there is nothing to stop a reseller from selling a mac a MSRP and then offering a instore rebate of free upgrades to make up the difference.
Donaldson
IMHO this is the dying scream of the whining retailers. They’ve failed to push the Apple products and now Apple, after being fed up with the pathetic reseller network has decided to show the resellers how to sell Apple products properly.
What is the result? the whining chorus of the resellers who have finally realised that to sell an Apple computer, it *may* actually require them to first have a store located in the city; this is a hint to the Apple store in Canberra located 10minutes out of the Canberra CBD, and worse still, there are five, count it, FIVE car parks. So not only do you have to treak accross the city to GET to an Apple store, but when you get there, you then then have to fight just to get a car park!
Sorry, Apple, you’re right on the dot. Make buying an Apple computer, an EXPERIENCE, turn it into a one-stop-shop for all your needs, be it a artist or a home user.
Yes, I still stand by it, the law suit is the chorus of whining retailers. Simple as that.
After Reading this. I feel like I am still missing a lot of information to make a good judgment on this. First is the number of products that the apple store orders vs. the other guys. Most of the other apple retailers I have seen are fairly small one building establishments. The closest is probably CompUSA, but CompUSA doesn’t have a strong Mac area. Then there is the apple store located right in our largest mall CrossGates (which is the biggest mall in about a hundred mile radius) And there are always people there shopping. So it is probably likly the price differences are because of the different in bulk of sales. Plus they get the discount because of all the stores around the US. Not just the one store location. Plus I have never seen a major difference in price from the apple store vs. an other company. So Apple is selling the products at the same prices as everyone else. So they are not unfairly competing with the little guys.
Apple could be doing something illegal or not there still isn’t a good amount of information. Heck anyone can make anyone else look bad if they just give selected information.
I don’t have the deails, but I’m pretty sure the reseller agreement involves more than just minimum pricing. I’ve heard from resellers and have seen it in similar stories that the agreement also controls rebates and discounts that can be offered on the Macs. The primary way resellers try to beat out Apple resale is through value-added packs: getting free RAM, printers, software, etc. along with your Mac.
I’ve never heard of the Apple Stores breaking the minimum pricing, and when I’ve been to them they were never sell for less than MSRP. They might offer value-added packs, but so the do other resellers.
This is of course not to say that Apple might be breaking the law by selling Macs to the Apple Stores for cheap, but even if they’re caught out it won’t result in cheaper Macs.
This reminds me of an Tany (Radio Shack) Technique. A company manufactures a product, it sets a dealer price and sells it to it’s own stores AND (in this case) resellers. Profit is made at the distribution point as well as the point of sale… Apple closely guards the resale price and the prices of it’s products are one of the most consistent across the board.
In udder woids, I, as a consumer, pay the same price at a reseller or the Apple store. It’s MY choice where I go. Traditionally resellers would sell at a higher price point that a company store. Go figure… I expect to pay less at an Apple store then I do at MacSchmo Ltd.
Now why would I go to an Apple reseller vs. an Apple Store? Hmmm, better (sic) support, expertese in specific areas. CUSTOMER SERVICE.
These resellers have to be better than Apple! And that’s hard to do! Not… The Apple Stores help raise awareness for customers who have no idea where these Apple resellers are…
IMHO – Jb
This is just payback by the dealers because of changes Apple has made to their new contracts and for entering the dealer space with the Apple stores.
I would have a little more respect for this lawsuit if it was filed by shareholders – and not a group with a blatent conflict of interest who is really looking to get a business concession from Apple.
These resellers have to be better than Apple! And that’s hard to do! Not… The Apple Stores help raise awareness for customers who have no idea where these Apple resellers are…
But it is possible. MagnumMac in New Zealand does a great job. Go in, and everytime you have a question it will always be answered by a person who has a clue. First time Mac buyer? they’ll give you honest advice. If you’re Joe End User, they won’t suggest purchasing a PowerMac, instead, they’ll suggest either purchasing an eMac or iMac.
That is the type of service people want. Another one, down in Melbourne in Australia, again, great shop, good location, friendly staff, HUGE software selection. Everything one needs under one roof, from third party gizmos to the latest software from Adobe and Macromedia.
Ultimately, those who DO a good job will hold onto their position or possible Apple may buy out the company and keep the staff. If there is already a good repot with customers, why change a good thing?
Other than a few strange ones (Filemaker) it is not hard to believe that Apple is simply giving itself a bulk discount.
One thing noticably absent was pricing information from CompUSA – the only Apple reseller in the US comparable in size to the Apple stores. If you group together all of the Apple stores as a single entity I would bet they far surpass most of the independant resellers in volume.
Without more information this hardly rises to the level of accounting fraud that is charged in the lawsuit.
But if it is proven, it reminds me of what went on at GM with Saturn for so many years (you didn’t think Saturn was able to profitably compete with the Japanese without massive hidden subsidies did you? hah!!!)
I have not received great service on the phone from Apple. Basically, if it’s not an obvious warranty situation they want you to pay before talking to you. However, I have received a lot of great service from the Genius Bar in the Apple store near here. They have been very helpful on a number of occasions.
I would have a little more respect for this lawsuit if it was filed by shareholders – and not a group with a blatent conflict of interest who is really looking to get a business concession from Apple.
=====
You know this could be said of anyone filing a suit. Lets face it if you don’t have a interest (usually money) in a suit you will not file it.
The Apple channel sellers have made some interesting claims which if they get proven true Apple will be punished in some way.
In case anyone forgets let me remind the readers of a little channel action from the 80’s where a software vendor forced all channel sellers to buy one copy per cpu. There was also a case wher a software vendor punished certain resellers for bundling 3rd party apps by changing the pricing numbers.
O and on a side note the Apple resellers were there before the Apple stores so Apple may be trying to force them out of a marketplace.
Donaldson
One thing noticably absent was pricing information from CompUSA – the only Apple reseller in the US comparable in size to the Apple stores. If you group together all of the Apple stores as a single entity I would bet they far surpass most of the independant resellers in volume.
Yet the article does mention (as unconfirmed) that high-volume stores usually get a back-end discount of 3-5%, which not only wouldn’t show up as lower prices on the invoice, but wouldn’t be that steep of a discount, either. The practice (of using back-end discounts for high-volume retailers) is fairly common, but it’s doubtful we’ll find out anything about those practices unless the case goes to court without a settlement.
Of course, they also mention additional problems with “Apple giving itself a bulk discount”, which is that Apple controls the volume available to all retailers. A retailer can order 200 iMacs, but it might take Apple a year to ship them all, and the retailer won’t have much choice in what types of iMacs they get. Meanwhile the Apple stores get as much as Apple can produce and they can sell (the exception being the obvious shortages that they seem to have on every new product).
Read the actual text of the lawsuit. It reads as if it were filed on behalf of shareholders who have been lied to by the company they own.
But it was really filed by people who are using it to strong-arm Apple into lowering the prices by which Apple sells them products for their stores. This has nothing to do with SEC filings or statements to shareholders. It’s a smokescreen for a business dispute. But since the resellers can’t win in the board room they’re trying to win in the court room.
And Apple is allowed to force them out of the marketplace if they aren’t keeping up. This wouldn’t have been a problem if the Apple resellers were doing a good job. But they weren’t!! They were selling to existing Apple customers but getting no new customers. That’s death for a company. Apple needed to do something and that something was opening the Apple stores.
Yet the article does mention (as unconfirmed) that high-volume stores usually get a back-end discount of 3-5%, which not only wouldn’t show up as lower prices on the invoice, but wouldn’t be that steep of a discount, either. The practice (of using back-end discounts for high-volume retailers) is fairly common, but it’s doubtful we’ll find out anything about those practices unless the case goes to court without a settlement.
High volume stores are different from high volume chains. Don’t you think Best Buy gets tv’s at a lower price than a high volume local retailer? You bet they do. And I have to wonder what they mean by “big dealer.” Do they mean a big local store or a big chain like CompUSA?
Apple has almost 80 stores nationwide. And each of those stores probably moves more merchandise than the biggest reseller store. It looks like Apple is giving their stores a 5-10% discount (higher on the more expensive products) which is not unreasonable when comparing a large chain to a single store.
Of course, they also mention additional problems with “Apple giving itself a bulk discount”, which is that Apple controls the volume available to all retailers. A retailer can order 200 iMacs, but it might take Apple a year to ship them all, and the retailer won’t have much choice in what types of iMacs they get. Meanwhile the Apple stores get as much as Apple can produce and they can sell (the exception being the obvious shortages that they seem to have on every new product).
Probably true. But none of that is illegal. And none of that is in contradiction to the statements Apple has made publicly. So there is no problem.
I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if Apple gets rid of all their resellers once they have enough retail stores in operation. I’ve yet to see a reseller worth buying from in comparison to an Apple Retail Store. Chances are they will open enough of their own stores, get rid of all the resellers, and sell to their own stores at cost. Only then should you expect cheaper Macs. Apple tends to be a very controlling company, yet only when they control every aspect of things do they get the best results, so I hope they can pull off something like this.
On another note, DJ Jedi Jeff mentioned a FileMaker discount. If MS tries pushing Apple around again any time soon, I can see Apple pulling FileMaker in house and releasing their own office suite to compete with MS Office. If they sold it for anything under $300 almost all sales of Office:Mac would end, and they could probably even make it cross platform and see how it does. FileMaker is pretty popular on Windows as it is now.
No. Apple retailers have to agree to a stringent sent of requirement regarding pricing. If this is true, the retailers would be able to make more profit on the Macs (they could buy them from Apple at a lower price), but it would not let them sell them at a lower rate.
The terms of a settlement are something a court of law would decide. You got no clue what it would mean in the end so don’t come in here trying to tell anyone exactly how it’ll be.
“The terms of a settlement are something a court of law would decide. You got no clue what it would mean in the end so don’t come in here trying to tell anyone exactly how it’ll be.”
His statement had nothing to do with what a court would decide or any result of it. He stated how it works now, and he’s correct. Apple is VERY strict with its resellers. Those mom and pop shops aren’t even allowed to call themselves official resellers because they don’t move enough product. Apple sends their own staff out to the CompUSA, Best Buy, and MicroCenter locations instead of using the stores employees. If you want to sell Macs at CompUSA you apple on Apples website and not the CompUSA location. You must have something like 3 years retail experience and usually management experience, then you are trained by both Apple and the store you are sent to. Most of the guys that do that should be fired anyway. Microcenter is the only place I have seen a half-decent Apple area. Which brings up another point, all these resellers are required to seperate the Apple products from everything else. Very strict.
“All of these independant mac dealers should just start selling PCs and help bury the cockroach of a company that is Apple Computer.”
Because Dell, Intel, and especially Microsoft are all very trustworthy companies…LOL.
The real question is do dealers get volume discounts when purchasing hardware for resale? If so Apple stores can buy as a single entity in much higher volume than a single independent dealer and reap the benefits.
FooGoo, that is the question. Which makes it a bit odd that the larger chains are missing from this picture.
That is the problem. FileMaker is not a good product. Apple has problems with making PROFESSIONAL buisness software. Filemaker is quick and dirty, but where is the SQL!?
Filemaker reminds me of MAC classic. It is long in the tooth, and the Recent update to 7 only comes half way. Apple would be in big trouble without MS Office.
FileMaker and SQL are have totally different purposes. SQL is around for databases with a huge number of users. FileMaker is a small business database, and it works wonderfully for that. It’s simple enough to script without knowing how to script anything. It makes relational databases with ease, very unlike SQL. SQL isn’t professional business software, it’s professional web software. It’s too complicated for business people. Without MS Office, Apple would only need MS Office compatibility to make their own Office suite a success. MS Office is replacable. The one to watch out for is Photoshop…but then again you never know, look what they did with Final Cut Pro.
They’ll have a hard time addressing these accusations.
Why?
Apple is ripping off consumers as well. If I knew the Apple store were getting a larger profit margin through these sneaky tactics I would have bought my laptop from a small reseller.
Because Dell, Intel, and especially Microsoft are all very trustworthy companies…LOL.
At least on the PC side the only company in a real position to force you into anything is MS. Hardware can be had from multiple places and if you don’t like the deals/pricing from one OEM you find another one.
With Apple you are screwed the whole way round. They dictate to you exactly what you can and can’t do. You don’t have a choice as they make the hardware and software. They have full control over all pricing and literally have you by the balls.
Lol. With Apple I am not stuck with Windows and Linux. I can use professional software on an OS worth paying for. But then again you are seperating Apple from other computer companies. If I don’t like they way Apple does things I could always buy from someone else. You make it sound as if once you buy a Mac you never get the chance to do anything else. Apple doesn’t dictate what I buy, they dictate what they sell. I dictate what I buy, and I choose to buy Apple because nobody else makes anything that does what I need to do. If I one day decide I don’t want to use OS X I can switch to Linux. If I decide I don’t like Apple hardware I’ll buy from someone else, probably Alienware. Apple has never forced me into anything. When I go to buy I computer I usually end up with a Mac becuase it’s the only thing that does what I need it to, not because other there are no other options. I like how proprietary Apple is, it keeps the quality level high. If Windows can’t run applications like FCP, then that’s half MS’s fault. If Windows and Linux don’t correct gamma levels then I won’t run Photoshop or InDesign on those OS’s because it’s not going to be color accurate when I send something to a press. Don’t blame Apple for other companies not being on par.
KDE has gamma correction as of KDE 3.2
“KDE has gamma correction as of KDE 3.2
”
It was pretty far off last time I tried it. It’s never been as bad as Windows is with it, though.
Why does Apple even bother having the stores run as a “separate” business unit? Why is it necessary for Apple’s stores to “buy” the products from itself in order to sell them?
Lol. With Apple I am not stuck with Windows and Linux. I can use professional software on an OS worth paying for. But then again you are seperating Apple from other computer companies. If I don’t like they way Apple does things I could always buy from someone else. You make it sound as if once you buy a Mac you never get the chance to do anything else.
I’m talking about independant dealers. These people are completely at the mercy of apple. Thank god consumers have choice. I wouldn’t be into computing if apple were the only choice out there.
You do know there are other manufacturers of PPC hardware besides apple right? In reality, apple’s a lot closer to Gateway or Dell. They just happen to manage an operating system, and lots of professional software applications. The processor? You can get one from Motorola, IBM, or Sonnet, or GigaDesign. What’s that, you didn’t know there were that many PPC processor producing companies? The same holds true for the motherboards. The only reason you don’t see “build it yourself” mac kits similar to the PC world is you 1) haven’t seached enough and 2) the market for such build it yourself kits is very tiny anyways.
as the other parent poster, PantherPPC said. I don’t buy apple because i’m “locked in” i buy apple because it works, period. linux and windows just DON’T stack up as desktop operating systems that get out of my way and let me produce. if anything i feel FREE now that i have more powerful UNIX and Commercial software combined into one system, rather than being “gotten by the balls” by the unbelivably proprietary and unethical company Microsoft.
You idiots have no idea. Go buy your Athlon 64 with water cooling and neon lights so you can and overclock it and look like an uber1337 idiot while I get actual work done on my machine.
One thing I haven’t found on the article, after going through with a magnifying glass, is whether each Apple Store is a separate entity under Apple, or are all Apple Stores under one branch in Apple? Cause, if it the latter, using volume sales alone can justify the price difference (other than the ridiculous price difference of File Maker Pro).
In other words, Apple probably would have been innocent in all this.
Interesting.
Umm…
You do realise that the Mac Reseller of which you speak has a sister store 30 secs to a minute away from the CBD at the Uni. Anway, what the frell has this to do with whats being discussed and how many Canberrans o you think actually read this.
BTW, those 5 car parks you speak of even though is true there is plenty of parking at the shopfronts around that store. AND YOU ALWAYS FIND A SPOT!
You idiots have no idea. Go buy your Athlon 64 with water cooling and neon lights so you can and overclock it and look like an uber1337 idiot while I get actual work done on my machine.
Lol your jealous and you know it
“You idiots have no idea. Go buy your Athlon 64 with water cooling and neon lights so you can and overclock it and look like an uber1337 idiot while I get actual work done on my machine.
Lol your jealous and you know it
”
Lol, I saw a G5 tower at Microcenter the other day with neon lights in it. I’ve always thought those things were goofy and distracting.
“I’m talking about independant dealers. These people are completely at the mercy of apple. Thank god consumers have choice.”
They should be at the mercy of Apple, yet hardly any of them follow the guidelines, which is why the Apple displays at those stores are rather pathetic. They have very little in common, quality wise, with Apple’s own retail chain.
“I wouldn’t be into computing if apple were the only choice out there.”
If there were only one choice, no matter who it was, not nearly as many people would be into this stuff. But then again, think how far behind this industry would be if Apple wasn’t there for MS to copy.
The one to watch out for is Photoshop…but then again you never know, look what they did with Final Cut Pro.
…bought it from Macromedia?
If Windows can’t run applications like FCP, then that’s half MS’s fault.
Gah? Does not compute. Please explain to the rest of the class what technical deficiency of Windows prevents it from running FCP.
“…bought it from Macromedia?”
Developed the original with Macromedia. It didn’t take off until version 3, and now it’s starting to take over all the really high end systems, mostly because it now works with 24fps HD film and has real time rendering, at a fraction of the cost of anything else. They made huge improvements on an already great product, just as they have done with many other applications, like iTunes (used to be SoundJam MP). Macromedia also sold of their old audio editing application to BIAS, and BIAS now sells it as Deck and Peak. My point in that post was not about who started what, it was that Apple took an existing market and built the best suite (FCP, Soundtrack, Cinema Tools, DVD Studio Pro, Shake, and Logic) there is, period.
“Gah? Does not compute. Please explain to the rest of the class what technical deficiency of Windows prevents it from running FCP.”
Media applications along the lines of FCP run so well on OS X because the OS is so heavily based on QuickTime. QuickTime is not just the player, its the technology, unlike how XP is based around Windows Media/DirectX, which acts more like a codec than something you can actually work with. So it’s not really that the specific application, FCP, doesn’t run on Windows, its that the Windows architecture doesn’t really support high end editing like QuickTime does, and that in turn makes it incredibly hard to develop a high end media editing application for Windows. Look at how even the mediocre ones are built, such as Premiere. They install their own media architecture as opposed to using Windows Media/DirectX (whatever you want to call it). If Windows were built on top of something like QuickTime, Adobe and Avid would be developing things on par with FCP, but for Windows. Apple isn’t a success in that market due to FCP, it’s because of QuickTime.
Lol, I saw a G5 tower at Microcenter the other day with neon lights in it. I’ve always thought those things were goofy and distracting.
Really? I always love those kinda things.
neon lights, Plexiglas cases, LCD temp gauge…
/me starts to drool 🙂
Media applications along the lines of FCP run so well on OS X because the OS is so heavily based on QuickTime.
Look at how even the mediocre ones are built, such as Premiere. They install their own media architecture as opposed to using Windows Media/DirectX (whatever you want to call it).
Erm, I’d suspect Premiere does that for the same reason Photoshop uses its own VM implementation. Hardly an app to be held up as a sterling example of a native Windows video editing suite.
QuickTime is not just the player, its the technology, unlike how XP is based around Windows Media/DirectX, which acts more like a codec than something you can actually work with.
Er, okay… so what features of Quicktime, as a media framework, make it easier to build high-end video editing apps than with DirectX?
Wow!. This is posted on a freakin rumor site with a one-sided argument and light on details and you think this actually news worthy?. The only thing wanted accomplish by posting this is whore your site for page hits and attract Apple haters…… OSviews.com was right.
“Exploring the Future of Computing” ha!
“OSviews.com was right.”
About what?
“Erm, I’d suspect Premiere does that for the same reason Photoshop uses its own VM implementation. Hardly an app to be held up as a sterling example of a native Windows video editing suite.”
So what exactly would you hold as a sterling example of a native Windows video editing suite?
“Er, okay… so what features of Quicktime, as a media framework, make it easier to build high-end video editing apps than with DirectX?”
A large part of it is that DirectX (aside from being one of the worst written piles of garbage around) is not meant to edit media, it was designed to control the integration of Windows Media content and external devices. Poorly written as it is, it’s simple, which attracts game developers. Windows Media itself is hardly more than a playback codec. QuickTime, on the other hand, was built from the ground up with audio and video in mind. Almost all codecs are based off of QuickTime. QuickTime Movies (.mov) is often mistaken as a codec itself, when in actuality its a container for almost any type of media, whether it be audio, video, or interactive, scriptable sprites. Up until the latest few versions, even Windows Media Player played back MPEG codecs using stolen QuickTime code, and thats not just the ramblings of a Machead. The basis of the Apple/MS legal disputes were not so much over a GUI as they were over stolen code, mostly from QuickTime. The company Apple hired to port QuickTime to Windows was forced by MS to hand over code. MS was caught, and that started the legal battle. The $150 million MS gave to Apple was more or less a settlement, not a life preserver. Go look at the sales figures from that time period and you will notice that PowerMac sales were picking up tremendously and the upcoming iMac, along with Jobs streamlining of the company, are what helped. $150 was chump change for something that size. Anyway, back to QuickTime.
http://developer.apple.com/quicktime/
Read that, then try developing in both QuickTime and DirectX and get back to me.
As a side note, the complete lack of decent media editing software for Windows should give you a hint that Windows simply isn’t suited for that stuff.
You do know there are other manufacturers of PPC hardware besides apple right?
Yep but only apple makes PPC hardware capable of running their OS which is the point. Its vendor lockin for dealers and consumers.
In reality, apple’s a lot closer to Gateway or Dell. They just happen to manage an operating system, and lots of professional software applications.
Not even close. I can buy hardware from Dell or Gateway that will run windows. I can only run OS X on apple hardware. Big diff.
The processor? You can get one from Motorola, IBM, or Sonnet, or GigaDesign. What’s that, you didn’t know there were that many PPC processor producing companies? The same holds true for the motherboards. The only reason you don’t see “build it yourself” mac kits similar to the PC world is you 1) haven’t seached enough and 2) the market for such build it yourself kits is very tiny anyways.
Total bullshit and you know it. Sure I can build my own mac if I buy a bunch of used mobos and strip current mac hardware. Wow I can that with a PC too! Toss a bunch of old crap together and blamo! Built my own box. I cannot and go out and purchase the individual components new to build a Mac based system.
So show me some of these “build it yourself” mac shops ? I’m curious. If they exist I’m well and sure they are breaking the law considering Apple is about the most anal controlling company on the face of the planet.
You idiots have no idea. Go buy your Athlon 64 with water cooling and neon lights so you can and overclock it and look like an uber1337 idiot while I get actual work done on my machine.
I’m sure plenty of us will do just that while the 3% of the market’s “enlightened idiots” get raped at the cash register buying Steve’s latest boat anchor.
Enjoy.
If there were only one choice, no matter who it was, not nearly as many people would be into this stuff. But then again, think how far behind this industry would be if Apple wasn’t there for MS to copy.
You mean we’d all be running Amigas ? hey who woulda thought!
“Yep but only apple makes PPC hardware capable of running their OS which is the point. Its vendor lockin for dealers and consumers.”
It’s not a lock-in for either. Vendors can sell Dells, and consumers can buy them.
“Total bullshit and you know it. Sure I can build my own mac if I buy a bunch of used mobos and strip current mac hardware. Wow I can that with a PC too! Toss a bunch of old crap together and blamo! Built my own box. I cannot and go out and purchase the individual components new to build a Mac based system.
So show me some of these “build it yourself” mac shops ? I’m curious. If they exist I’m well and sure they are breaking the law considering Apple is about the most anal controlling company on the face of the planet.”
They are the same shops you buy your PC parts from. The only thing other than software that is a must-have to run OS X is the bootrom. You can buy everything else from the manufacturers.
“I’m sure plenty of us will do just that while the 3% of the market’s “enlightened idiots” get raped at the cash register buying Steve’s latest boat anchor.”
Last time I checked Windows and Linux couldn’t do half the stuff OS X can. Enjoy you video games. Maybe one day playing Counter Strike will pay the rent.
They are the same shops you buy your PC parts from. The only thing other than software that is a must-have to run OS X is the bootrom. You can buy everything else from the manufacturers.
No they aren’t. I’ve never seen any PPC hardware at any hardware vendor I frequent and that makes up about 5 major companies.
The day I can walk into a frys and come out with all the parts for a mac is the day I’ll say there is a “build your own” market for the mac.
Even if I could get everything else I can’t legally obtain a bootrom for the machine. There is no legal way to build a mac beyond possibly scraping old parts.
For some thats just what makes apples a great mcahine for the rest of us its what keeps us away.
Last time I checked Windows and Linux couldn’t do half the stuff OS X can. Enjoy you video games. Maybe one day playing Counter Strike will pay the rent.
My computer pays the bills right now even while missing “half the stuff OS X does”. Unlike the mac there is a market for something called software on the PC and it pays good considering 90% of the world runs the platform I develop on.
Maybe your mac will be good for games when the ports finally get written.
“No they aren’t. I’ve never seen any PPC hardware at any hardware vendor I frequent and that makes up about 5 major companies.
The day I can walk into a frys and come out with all the parts for a mac is the day I’ll say there is a “build your own” market for the mac.
Even if I could get everything else I can’t legally obtain a bootrom for the machine. There is no legal way to build a mac beyond possibly scraping old parts.”
I’ve never been to Fry’s (there aren’t any in Atlanta) but maybe you should look again. I’ve bought them from CompUSA and Microcenter a number of times.
Getting bootrom off and old Mac doesn’t mean buying the whole machine. You can buy just the bootrom.
“For some thats just what makes apples a great mcahine for the rest of us its what keeps us away.”
That really depends on what you plan on doing.
“My computer pays the bills right now even while missing “half the stuff OS X does”. Unlike the mac there is a market for something called software on the PC and it pays good considering 90% of the world runs the platform I develop on.”
That’s a very common misconception. The bigger software companies almost always develop for the Mac. The Mac market for that stuff is the same as the Windows market…it’s not the total number of users of a platform, it’s the potential buyers of the software. The large software companies know this, Adobe is a great example. The shareware market for OS X is very strong due to the lack of spyware and adware. Look at companies like Unsanity and Geekspiff for things like that. The Mac software market is very strong. Like you said, 90% of the world runs the platform you develop on, yet you still don’t sell to all of them.
The ghosts of NeXT! Steve never learns.
“The ghosts of NeXT! Steve never learns.”
Huh?
@MoronPeeCeeUsr
“Not even close. I can buy hardware from Dell or Gateway that will run windows. I can only run OS X on apple hardware. Big diff.”
Wrong, try OpenBSD, NetBSD, YellowDog Linux, Mandrake, Knoppix, and Windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, XP via VPC.
If you don’t know jack about Macs why are you here commenting like you know something?
MoronPeeCeeUsr : Not even close. I can buy hardware from Dell or Gateway that will run windows. I can only run OS X on apple hardware. Big diff.
glacius: Wrong, try OpenBSD, NetBSD, YellowDog Linux, Mandrake, Knoppix, and Windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, XP via VPC.
If you don’t know jack about Macs why are you here commenting like you know something?
I believe he meant that OS X can only run on Apple hardware, not that Apple hardware can only run OS X. Certainly that fits in better with what he was talking about.
Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe he did mean that Apple hardware can only run OS X.
PantherPPC: I’ve bought them from CompUSA and Microcenter a number of times.
Honestly, this is the first I’ve ever heard of either of those stores selling such parts and I visit lot’s of different computer stores (including the local CompUSA and Microcenter) all the time. Maybe I somehow missed the fact that they sell such parts? Maybe…
However, I have seen a couple stores that sell such parts on the internet, but I honestly can’t remember their URLs right now.
I would also like to say that I have never seen a custom-built Mac, even though I know a number of Mac users. (I’m also a Mac user.) I’ve heard of custom Macs, but I’ve never actually seen one. While, almost all the PC users I know have custom-built machines. Of course, it could just be the people I know…
I’m not even going to comment on the games part.
Thanks for the correction Deletomn but either way moronpeeceeusr doesn’t know what they are talking about.
MacOSX will also run on Pegasos systems via MOL and I forgot to add Debian and Gentoo to the list of OS.
“Wrong, try OpenBSD, NetBSD, YellowDog Linux, Mandrake, Knoppix, and Windows 95, 98, NT, 2000, XP via VPC.
If you don’t know jack about Macs why are you here commenting like you know something?”
Running in emulation isn’t a particularly good solution to anything. Regardless, you completely missed his point.
“Thanks for the correction Deletomn but either way moronpeeceeusr doesn’t know what they are talking about.
MacOSX will also run on Pegasos systems via MOL and I forgot to add Debian and Gentoo to the list of OS. ”
Actually, he did. You don’t.
I finally was able to download it after many attempts.
I just went to one of the macs and got it first go.