Microsoft agreed to pay Norway’s Opera Software $12.75 million to head off a threatened lawsuit over code that made some Web pages on MSN look bad in certain versions of Opera’s Web browser, CNET News.com has learned.
Microsoft behind $12 million payment to Opera?
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Eugenia Loli
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$12 million is chump change for Microsoft. Well worth covering up what could have been YMPOM… that is, Yet More Proof Of Monopoly.
This is not an “obscure detail,” as the C|NET article condescendingly put it. Opera charged that Microsoft delibirately coded MSN in such a way that the only browser that looked good is IE. Whether this was delibirate or due to the incompetence of MS’ web developers is entirely beside the point, however. Microsoft’s IE (which, the C|NET article should be corrected, although it has good standards support NOW in version 6, back in versions 4-5 the standards support was HORRIBLE, and it was during this period–a period when Netscape went from having 80% of the browser market to having 20%–that standards went down the drain) has a host of problems, but since everyone uses it, web developers cater to users by catering to IE.
For anyone to say that today Internet Explorer is the most popular browser because it is the best browser really needs to pull their head out of their proverbial you know what. Firefox runs RINGS around IE, and has much better standards support (not to mention built-in popup stopping, built-in tabs support, an excellent plugin architecture, skins, and on and on and on). Other Linux mozilla-based browsers (like the one I’m using now, Galeon), have features that make me cringe at the prospect of ever having to browse the web on a Windows machine.
Just the other day I helped out a Windows user friend of mine by installing Firefox on his machine. He was so unbelievably happy. “It’s so fast!” IE on his machine had been so infested by god-knows-what ActiveX controls that whenever you clicked that stupid blue “E”, 10 IEXPLORE.EXE processes would spawn, each chugging 10% of the CPU and 20MB of RAM. Yea–there’s a fast browser, alright!
I passed The Open CD ver 1.4 to a guy who couldn’t surf the web anymore because of IE security glitches, and pop ups. a quick install of Mozilla 1.6 and life becomes normal again. Now he may still have a couple of trojans or viruses, but they seem to not interfere with his network, and can be cleaned out later.
MS pays Opera to not bring more anti-trust charges againist MS. Nothing really sruprising.
Whether this was delibirate or due to the incompetence of MS’ web developers is entirely beside the point,
It was clearly deliberate. Opera displayed MSN perfectly using the default stylesheet. They specifically detected “Opera” in the user agent, and put in a special style sheet. It moved items -30px behind other objects, making the page unusable and terrible looking. It most likely was MS paying up because it was a clear abuse of monopoly power.
Here’s a page with more information on it:
http://deb.opera.com/howcome/2003/2/msn/
Kyle, thanks for that link. I had read that article long ago when Opera first broke it but completely forgot about the “Oprah” test. That indeed proves that Microsoft was deliberate in targeting Opera.
Thanks for the correction.
I will never understand why so many little companies settle with Microsoft for pocket money and why does they keep thoses practices under secret..
The question is WHAT Opera is going to do with all these… millions.
One of the Opera 6 versions – .4, .04? – had problems displaying the MSN homepage because it was offsetting some pixels or something during rendering. Tables, I think. 7.0 fixed it (Presto rocks!), but the MSN webmaster didn’t bother fixing the style-sheet output for the 7.x branch. I wonder if they’ll dock the 12 million from his pay. =D
“I will never understand why so many little companies settle with Microsoft for pocket money and why does they keep thoses practices under secret..”
Cuz they’re small, and 12 million is a ton of money. That’ll probably get Opera on a few more mobile phones (I love the “zoom” feature – it freaking rocks for pages with small fonts.) Going to court over the issue might not be a sound monetary investment, and might set them back a few steps to fuel a fight against Microsoft.
“The question is WHAT Opera is going to do with all these… millions.”
Technically 12 million dollars can buy you all the pornography every produced in the history of mankind and several years worth of coffee, soda, and chips.
…anyone know what the “mobile” version of Opera is coded in? Java? I didn’t think most mobile phones had C/++ compilers.
I understand that MS plays by different rules because they are a monopoly, but this is just pathetic.
“Your page doesn’t display properly in Opera”
“No, I only bothered testing it on IE, because that’s what the majority of my users access it with”
“So you’re discriminating against Opera users by not conforming to the standards?”
“Look, if it bothers you that much I’ll put up a warning page when it’s accessed by an Opera browser that tells them to use IE”
“Cash, cheque or credit card?”
Ever heard of precompiled binaries?
I think this is worse than those other cases, if I’m getting it right. It’s not like the Eolas suit or the EU ruling, which is pretty silly. MSN apparently set something on the site to the effect of “if (browser is opera) make this thing look bad.” When they made Opera fake its name, the site looked fine. This is not such a bad thing to sue over.
I don’t quite get the meaning of your post but I think you probably haven’t read Opera’s investigation into how and why the MSN pages don’t display properly in Opera 7.
Here, once again, is the link:
http://deb.opera.com/howcome/2003/2/msn/
It’s not that MS didn’t follow standards, they DELIBERATELY created a page to be fed to any browser sending “Opera” in it’s UserAgent string.
“o, I only bothered testing it on IE, because that’s what the majority of my users access it with”
“So you’re discriminating against Opera users by not conforming to the standards?”
that was not the case here. it was deliberately feeding opera the wrong page when just feeding it the IE page would have worked fine
“Ever heard of precompiled binaries?”
Er, what happens when the target architecture is different from the architecture running the compiler?
“When they made Opera fake its name, the site looked fine. This is not such a bad thing to sue over.”
they sued and won. it is worth suing over because it was a deliberate action after they have been informed several times that they could have just dropped checking for opera and it would worked.
dont try to call this right
“…anyone know what the “mobile” version of Opera is coded in? Java? I didn’t think most mobile phones had C/++ compilers.”
It is coded in QTopia the embedded version of QT which is under GPL. Opera Linux version is also under QT so it is easy.,
“…anyone know what the “mobile” version of Opera is coded in? Java? I didn’t think most mobile phones had C/++ compilers.”
It is coded in QTopia the embedded version of QT which is under GPL. Opera Linux version is also under QT so it is easy.,
http://www.trolltech.com/products/embedded/
I’m not saying it’s right. What I’m saying is that deliberately making your web pages not compatible with someone’s browser is not a freakin’ crime. It’s MSN’s content, they produce it, and if they don’t want to display it in Opera’s browser, or conform to standards, then that’s their choice. Opera users will just stop using MSN, or identify as something other than Opera.
MS might be a monopoly, but MSN sure as hell isn’t. The web is a big place, vote with your feet.
The whole case is just dumb, and it’s a sad testament to the sue-happy culture the Western world has created that Opera got paid for such a ridiculous thing.
What the heck is next?
“My Win3.1 app won’t work anymore. MS has deliberately stopped XP being compatible with my Win3.1 app. This is just not fair, I’m gonna sue.”
hmm…serves microsoft right…was a really stupid move for microsoft to even do that
The windows platform has the best mozilla based browser for me , Kmeleon ! It’s way faster then Firefox and i can change it to my needs with macros n stuff.
That’s what I miss in Linux imho =/
”
I’m not saying it’s right. What I’m saying is that deliberately making your web pages not compatible with someone’s browser is not a freakin’ crime. It’s MSN’s content, they produce it, and if they don’t want to display it in Opera’s browser, or conform to standards, then that’s their choice”
”
it is anticompetitive practise and deliberately doing this is still a crime regardless of a monopoly status.
“he windows platform has the best mozilla based browser for me , Kmeleon ! It’s way faster then Firefox and i can change it to my needs with macros n stuff.
That’s what I miss in Linux imho =/”
ephipany and firefox gtk2 build is pretty fast.
”
I’m not saying it’s right. What I’m saying is that deliberately making your web pages not compatible with someone’s browser is not a freakin’ crime. It’s MSN’s content, they produce it, and if they don’t want to display it in Opera’s browser, or conform to standards, then that’s their choice”
”
it is anticompetitive practise and deliberately doing this is still a crime regardless of a monopoly status. its not their choice at all esp since they have done similar stuff many times before
“he windows platform has the best mozilla based browser for me , Kmeleon ! It’s way faster then Firefox and i can change it to my needs with macros n stuff.
That’s what I miss in Linux imho =/”
ephipany and firefox gtk2 build is pretty fast.
“they sued and won. it is worth suing over because it was a deliberate action after they have been informed several times that they could have just dropped checking for opera and it would worked. ”
Shades of DR-DOS. Some just never learn.
More Microsoft bashing. Is there ever a free thought that comes from Linux zealots?
“This is probably the first profit the company has ever made. who the fuck uses opera anyways. mozilla ownz. no question about it.”
Lots and lots of people. Mozilla sucks. It’s huge, bloated, and can’t even render Slashdot correctly without text spilling over into the left table columns.
Compare the memory usage sometime. Or the fact that Opera changes skins in less than a second.
Oh, yeah, I forgot, Mozilla is OSS and so is magically the best, even though it reimplements all its own widgets, is slower than a dog, and can’t seem to decide when it’s going to adopt Firefox as its main browser.
Meanwhile, Opera 7.5 is the best browser to come out in years.
If I develop a site that says (if browser == opera) feed_user_crap_page(); then Opera software can now sue me?
Put down your rabid anti-microsoft zealotry for a second and think about it.
If you develop a site, AND you develop a competing web browser, the issue is entirely different.
So I slap together a browser based on mozilla in a weekend and then throw opera users a bad page then Opera can sue me.
Who cares if MSN’s site doesn’t render properly for Opera users. MSN should be able to do whatever they want with their site.
This is just so wrong, but of course anti-ms braindamage trumps any kind of logic for the slashdweeb crowd.
This is just so wrong, but of course anti-ms braindamage trumps any kind of logic for the slashdweeb crowd.
You weren’t hurt by this, so you don’t care. Why should anyone else care when you don’t? Hard to understand, right?
But if it was your business that was hurt by a competitor intentionally libelling your product, making it look defective when it was not, you might care.
The really interesting question about Microsoft is why do they continue to behave like this? You’ve already won the lottery, created unimaginable wealth for yourselves; now just relax already! Why continue to screw with everyone else?
The really interesting question about Microsoft is why do they continue to behave like this? You’ve already won the lottery, created unimaginable wealth for yourselves; now just relax already! Why continue to screw with everyone else?
Basically because they can. Hell I’d do the same. Business is war. No reason to be friendly about it, or I should say no reason to let your competition just run wild. Gotta keep em’ in check man. Ya know… shake the bowl a few times, screw with em’.
What else are they gonna do with 50 billion ? Compete on fair terms ? LOL. Ya right!
“If I develop a site that says (if browser == opera) feed_user_crap_page(); then Opera software can now sue me?
Put down your rabid anti-microsoft zealotry for a second and think about it.”
of course any commercial company can sue any other commercial company and in this case it was very much deliberate and it was proved and they won.
“More Microsoft bashing. Is there ever a free thought that comes from Linux zealots?”
hey microsoftie. where is your independant fair thinking
“”If I develop a site that says (if browser == opera) feed_user_crap_page(); then Opera software can now sue me?
Put down your rabid anti-microsoft zealotry for a second and think about it.” ”
I didnt develop IE. Microsoft did. they specifically tried to screw up their competition by making their site look crappy in that particular browser when basically just feeding it the IE page would have worked just fine.
thats why they got to pay the fine. its has nothing to do with anti ms zealotry and everything to do with forbidding anti competitive practises by the law
you cannot run a website or business anyway you like. there is limitations on what you can and cannot do
screwing up competitive in an unfair manner isnt allowed at all
MS paying them 12 mil is about the same as me saying “let me buy you a beer, and we will forget the whole thing”.
If I were MS I think I would have done the same. It wasn’t really a huge deal to begin with, and Opera apparently thought the “issues” had a price. Nothing like having your largest pay day ever as the result of something like this.
Some may look at it completely differently, but I won’t be evaluating future versions of Opera again this lifetime.
“Lots and lots of people. Mozilla sucks. It’s huge, bloated, and can’t even render Slashdot correctly without text spilling over into the left table columns. ”
Small tip, DF. If you’re going to be tossing stuff like this out. Make certain we can’t come up with counter evidence. e.g. screenshots.
“Lots and lots of people. Mozilla sucks. It’s huge, bloated, and can’t even render Slashdot correctly without text spilling over into the left table columns.
Compare the memory usage sometime. Or the fact that Opera changes skins in less than a second.”
Mozilla renders slashdot beautifully. I use Mozilla. I like Opera. I simply refuse to pay for my web browser, but otherwise I might use Opera. I’d love to have that smaller memory footprint in mozilla, because yes the mozilla memory footprint is much too large.
However, Opera is a bloated beast in comparison to Dillo. Yes, Dillo doesn’t do much, but it’s still a work of art IMO.
“Lots and lots of people. Mozilla sucks. It’s huge, bloated, and can’t even render Slashdot correctly without text spilling over into the left table columns. ”
I can’t tell the difference between IE and Mozilla when viewing slashdot.
Maybe on Linux its screwed up but on windows it works just fine.
that opera sue’ed MS for this. MS might be less aggressive on the web atm. But they used to make deals with websites so only IE could access it or see it correctly. I think that was the case for the Disney site.
Opera has all reasons to sue ms for making their msn page look on opera like the opera renders worse then IE.
PS: thx for pointing out to epiphany and firefox gtk2 , but they are both still quite slow. I found another browser BackArrow with mozilla engine which is incredibly fast , but it’s in early development. Atm it’s actually skipstone modified to run with moz 1.6
”
I can’t tell the difference between IE and Mozilla when viewing slashdot.
Maybe on Linux its screwed up but on windows it works just fine.
”
no its the same everywhere. the guy was trolling
“I’m not saying it’s right. What I’m saying is that deliberately making your web pages not compatible with someone’s browser is not a freakin’ crime. It’s MSN’s content, they produce it, and if they don’t want to display it in Opera’s browser, or conform to standards, then that’s their choice. Opera users will just stop using MSN, or identify as something other than Opera.”
The way I see it, HTTP is a standard, if you choose to serve a website using HTTP then the site your serving should conform to W3C standards. Otherwise create your own proprietary internet protocal and request visitors use that prototcal. It’s that simple.
I can do what ever I want with my websites.. who are “you” to tell me what I can and cannot do. Bullshit lawsuit if you ask me. Yeah it was childish of MS to do that, but the fact remains that Opera whined like a little bitch because MS threw them a curve ball.
*glove is open for flame balls*
You’re right on. Microsoft was acting childish, but this is a dangerous precedence. If you take Microsoft out of this equation and put in random company A, I wonder how many of these slashbots would be saying “this is a good thing”. This is a horrible thing and Microsoft should’ve fought this.