Sun has backed up an announcement that its Solaris server operating system will have an open source flavour by making a similar promise for its Java technology.
Sun Likely to Open-Source Java
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Eugenia Loli
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46 Comments
2004-06-04 3:32 pm
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Yes! Can you say “java bundled with every distro”? 😀
Oh, lovely. How many CDs is Linux up to?
Itll probably be incomptable with the GPL. :-p like many others
“We haven’t worked out how to open-source Java — but at some point it will happen,” Srinivas said. However, he noted “it might be today, tomorrow or two years down the road”.
These are nothing but hot-air announcements to make headlines. Sun will only open source Java when it realizes that the .NET bull is heading its way at 2000 miles an hour. By the time it does open source, it will be too little, too late.
I am ready to be proven wrong and I would be glad if that were the case.
This would fix most linux dev problems. Aslong as it is GPL (or compatible in a way that distro’s can ship it) I’m all for it. Mono just scares me, due to possibilitys with patents and java is much more mature. I really hope this happens.
Quick Quiz
“We haven’t worked out how to opensource __________”
open source of ___________”will happen,” but declined to elaborate on timelines or specifics of licence arrangements.
We are reiterating our commitment to opensource by releasing ____________
a.) Solaris
b.) Java
c.) Looking Glass
d.) All of the above
Answer: D
If you answered correctly, you are not an idiot. Congrats!
Agree with the new comments. theyre just being to coy about their stratgey. They hold Linux/OSS in one hand and in the other their own propreitary software. I think their trying to have it both ways, though I will be fair and say their did some nice work on OpenOffice but thats about all theyve done to support Open Source.
The thing that makes Java being Open Source, even further made into actually free software is massive distro inclusion. If they can include it then the community can push Java over doing things Microsofts way which is C#. Mono and dotGnu are there but it would be better if the community pressed its own standard.
Ya know, I bet not too soon after this goes open-source (if it does) somebody will make a fork that compiles down to a binary executable just ass C++ does… so it will be OS specific but fast, like c++ code but you won’t have to “port” anything to another langauge, you would just compile! I think that could be nice.
“Oh, lovely. How many CDs is Linux up to?”
Only one if you just count Linux, with plenty of room to spare. Now some linux distros with all the included software on the other hand are up to about 5 I think is the max so far
Right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing? Forget Kerry — Sun is the real flip-flopper! It must be damaging their reputation by now — flip-flopping on their Linux strategy and Java strategy as often as they do.
Oh great, how many JVM’s will i need, 5? 6? no, maybe 10. Open Sourcing Java is the biggest mistake Sun can make. I do agree that Java is open enough, you can do whatever you wish with the source but you have to submit your changes for compatibility testing. People do forks for a couple of reasons, the main reason is because they disagree with the direction that the project was taking this will be no different, something else I will have to download and install.
Hello, it’s called gcj. You need to get out more.
http://gcc.gnu.org/java/
I expect Sun will make good on their promise of “opening” Java somehow within the next couple years, if only to blunt Microsoft’s momentum with .NET, but the license they choose makes all the difference. Microsoft released the .NET CLR under a “shared source” license that was greeted by yawns and warnings about possible developers becoming radioactive just by reading it. Some of the issues that need to be addressed are:
1. Can I freely install and modify the code on any number of machines, and share the modifications with others?
2. Can I sell the (possibly modified) code on a royalty-free basis?
3. If I modify the code, who owns the modifications? Do I have to publish them?
4. If I have to publish modified code, what determines the boundary of the code that is affected?
5. Can I sell a rival, modified version of the JVM or fork the API?
6. If I study the code, can I apply concepts and techniques I’ve learned (not literal source) to other projects I’m working on?
7. Who pays for the lawyers if someone sues for patent or copyright infringement for code in Sun’s original distribution, after I’ve distributed it as part of my product? What am I liable for if the alleged infringements are in my modifications?
8. Will Sun turn over the various Java and J2EE specs to a standards organization?
If Sun chooses an open source license for Java, it will have a lot of choices : just take a look at the OpenBSD website (the policy page) to see what I mean, unless of course they write 100 pages of licensing agreement 🙂
now that sun are open-sourcing Solaris and Java, what will they have left to make money from?
…Scooter & Co. are going to make $$$ selling what now? I bet they will sell printed manuals and make tons of money. I am buying stock right away.
NOT!
I’ll learn Java if they open it up under the GPL.
I think it unwise to go and saying they will “eventually” open source java or solaris without clearly having a plan for licensing and maintaining a coherent, supportable commerical version.
Again, I’m surprised senior management publicly commting tmajor assets to open source without having a clear plan in advance.
Sun should open source Java on condition that if they lose money and go down the tubes, it will sue the hell out of IBM and Raymond/Perens/Stallman and get 2x money for “false advertizing that Open Source cures all problems”.
ALternatively, Sun should open source Java on condition that IBM open sources Websphere, SAP/BEA/Peoplesoft all open source their core products, Oracle open sources Oracle 10g
If Sun loses big, others should lose big as well.
That should be a nice neutron bomb in the software business.
How exactly do all you people think sun is going to lose money by opening up java? Aren’t they giving it away for free as it is….so they’ll make exactly the same amount of money on the core language/virtual machine that they have been making, none.
The services and products surrounding java will probably start making them a lot more money when they do this though, because a lot more people will use java if it’s open. Linux distros will actually be able to have java installed by default, and if that happens plenty of developers will begin to see java as a viable programming language.
What’s the real issue is when they will open it, if they open it tommorow or within a few months, then that’s great, but if they wait 2 years as they said is a possibility, then they might as well start learning c# right now, because not many people are going to be willing to consider learning java when they already know another language that does all the same things, and then opening java will be in vain.
I also don’t think everyone should be worrying about forks so much, the beauty of a fork is that no one is going to fork it unless they feel they are benefiting the language in a way sun refuses to. If they do this, then every one of the major distros are going to have to be compelled to agree that the fork is better and that they are going to switch to the fork, or no one is going to use the fork, and a fork no one uses doesn’t hurt anyone.
Just how much or to what extent could any of this happen?
Consider SCO and Novel.
The ownership of much of UNIX is still up in the air. Who decides what can and can’t be used, and Sun only has a UNIX license, so their opensource Solaris “flavour” will be that and nothing more even if they were serious.
Yesterday: We are going to open-source Solaris. It will be just like Java is right now.
Today: We haven’t worked out how to open-source Java, but it will happen.
Yet they whine about RedHat every chance they get. I wonder if ADTI is not on they pay-roll with their “hybrid-source” propaganda.
They are not trustworthy.
It will be excellent idea.
“Ya know, I bet not too soon after this goes open-source (if it does) somebody will make a fork that compiles down to a binary executable just ass C++ does… so it will be OS specific but fast, like c++ code but you won’t have to “port” anything to another langauge, you would just compile! I think that could be nice.”
This has already happened. You don’t even need to fork Sun’s Java for this! The GNU Java Compiler has been able to compile Java source code to native executables for years.
“Oh great, how many JVM’s will i need, 5? 6? no, maybe 10. Open Sourcing Java is the biggest mistake Sun can make.”
As opposed to the situation now? You have Sun JVM, IBM JVM, GCJ JVM, Blackdown JVM, Jikes, Kaffe, etc.
So how many forks of Perl and Python do we have? Answer: zero! Where are the hundreds of forks of GNOME and KDE?
Peoples’ fear for forking is completely unjustified. As if you can’t make an incompatible Java-like language without Sun’s source code. Furthermore, an incompatible fork will not be legally allowed to be called “Java”. And who the hell will use an incompatible fork anyway? But if the majority will use that incompatible fork, then it means that it’s BETTER than the original. You don’t want to stop innovation and progress, do you?
They’ve done it extremely well with StartOffice. Java in perticular would benefit hugely since all the big players would be able to contribute optimisations to the VM for the various platforms. And just like for Linux and Apache, Java is already too important (like it or not) for a fork to make any sense.
so just do it SUN, and dual license a la Trolltech for commercial developments.
Actually, they don’t.
StarOffice (not StartOffice) was the only thing they ever open sourced adequately, and then it was more a desperate measure to counter Micro$haft MS-Office near-monopoly in the Office software suite market, than a planned strategic move.
They had actually paid $375 million for it (StarOffice never was an internally developed package at Sun, FYI) and I doubt they ever got that back.
What Sun has done in the past very well is to create industry standards. That was when they had some really hot technology being developed in their research labs.
Times have changed…
It seems Sun has agreed with MS to go the hybrid-source way. Both MS’s shared-source and Suns Java and Solaris will be the true hybrid-source.
i’m looking forward to native java for NetBSD.
Hybrid actually means non-free.
Give me the choice between a GPL-licensed package and a “hybrid” licensed one, and I know which one I’ll choose right away.
And I still don’t see how Java under a “hybrid” license will bring in any extra revenue for Sun, compared to the present licensing and revenue status.
I wish Sun would stop putting out this kind of hot-air announcements and get down to work on some neat new technology. Even though they have been downsizing fast, they still have the financial & engineering ressources to get themselves out of this downsizing spiral – hopefully.
It woudl be retarded to release Java under the GPL. What software languages are under the GPL anyway?
The GPL is overrated.
I spoke with Johnathon Schwartz about this once, I’m told it will be under a special non-forking license and remain with sun while others can use it and contribute..
so all in all they get free workers and the open source people will have a reason to perfer java over .net…
Sun makes money selling Java-related products and services, not just the language itself.
Java will likely be dual-licensed, forcing corporate buyers who want to play deep down inside to buy a license. I THINK.
I just know they will add something that won’t let java be forked.
WHO CARES ANYWAY IF ITS NOT GPL. If I renamed the CPL to GPL i bet it would be just as popular.
What’s up?!? If i’m not mistaking, a Sun executive said a “definite no” a whole ago? Also just a few days ago Sun said hardware will be free. If Looking Glass, Java and Solaris are open-source how are they gonna use the subscription service? Is it the end solution packet? OTOH, when Java + Looking Glass is open source according to OSI definition it’ll have much chance to be included in Linux distributions (like RedHat, lol) but if it isn’t Free Software according to FSF’s definition it won’t be in a Linux distribution like Debian. RedHat’s competitor; Sun’s friend
.
I think Sun would gain more profit when they’d polish JDS more, build it more around Java, include the Looking Glass, and open-source these later (ie. in 2005/2006) after they made profit with their unique product.
actually that was not schwart’z words. he said something weird that i translated into that.
RE: Uhm
Who cares if its OSI or not. As long as its free and free to contribute and use why should I care
Also, I hear schartz will release an open source version of solaris like how apple has darwin..keeping an enterprise version… I believe that will be forkable.
Quoting from your comment above:
“WHO CARES ANYWAY IF ITS NOT GPL” (sic)
I would say that any well-informed I.T. professional cares about software licenses. I know I do.
“The GPL is overrated.”
That’s a matter of opinion. Personally I think it’s great.
Interesting to know that you spoke with Schwartz once, and “he said something weird”. It fits…
Why don´t more distros ship with the SUN JRE and/or JDK ? I know for a fact that several commercial distributions do ship it, but thats not the limit. Slackware is a free distribution and it ships with SUN´s JDK as well…
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=58628“ rel=”nofollow”>http://www.pcpro.co.uk/?