Six months ago, I decided that the GNOME desktop was ready for exclusive use on my desktop computer. Having used GNOME daily since that time, I have come to appreciate the thought and attention to detail that makes GNOME so friendly and usable. I have written a brief article that describes my experience with GNOME and that provides a brief introduction to GNOME for those who have yet to try it out for themselves.
Now we’re going to have more arguments about spatial.
Nice review. I’m a KDE user myself, but I have to say the desktop of this guy looks cool, contrary to the default Gnome desktop which is ugly imho.
In IE, while loading a huge amount of nothing is inserted at the top of the page, that suddenly disappears when the page has loaded.
Also, this quote is typical: “When KDE 2.0 was released in October of 2000, it proved to be a large disappointment. I didn’t like the look of it at all.”
And what is so great about Nautilus’ thumbnails? How are they so much better than those of Konqueror or Windows Explorer?
“This emphasis on good user interface design and usability is one of the key benefits of the GNOME platform. It elevates GNOME above other similar environments like KDE.”
When I looked at the HIG, I saw that at many points, instructions are given on exactly how many pixels should be between what screen elements, and what elements you should actually use in what place. Shouldn’t it rather be the toolkit who lays out everything properly and provides classes for common dialogs? As itis now, if the HIG is ever changed, all applications have to be modified by hand.
Finally, since when are Firefox and The Gimp Gnome applications? And is he still using Kopete, as he said he would do in his KDE 3.2.1 review?
cmon, dont start apples vs oranges here….
Shouldn’t it rather be the toolkit who lays out everything properly and provides classes for common dialogs? As itis now, if the HIG is ever changed, all applications have to be modified by hand.
You mean to implement this in GTK+ ?
Wouldn’t that force everybody using GTK+ to be HIG compliant, at least on the pixel distance level ?
GTK+ is not only used in GNOME as far as I know.
Oooh, scary, that some non-Gnome applications like The Gimp (which the author of the article brags about as being a Gnome application) would be HIG-compliant!
So I have just tried to use Gnome again, but it is just too buggy to use.
– Balsa’s “leave POP3 mail on server” is downloads left messages over and over again, while Evolution can’t properly use my IMAP address.
– The PAN newsreader does still not support embedded ISO-hints in article headers, so that they are displayed like:
Leerschritt vor Aus =?ISO-8859-1?Q?lassungszeichen_(wa?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s:_Usenet_-_Interne?= t-Dienst oder eigen =?ISO-8859-1?Q?st=E4ndiges_Netz)?=
– Gecko, and with that Epiphany, renders pages really slow, that is, much slower than IE, Konqueror or Opera. Scrolling is not smooth either.
– Still no Gnome-VFS support in the file dialogs
The Spatial Nautilus (even though it can’t beat the speed of my 16 Mhz Macintosh SE/30) works great, though, and if the mail/news apps of Gnome weren’t so buggy, it would probably have been a reason for me to switch.
It’s not common to see such detailed and nice written articles. Too bad the author couldn’t resist and left a couple of flame baits lying around, which will bring one more KDE x Gnome flamewar here. Oh well. One more opportunity for constructive discussion lost.
But “This emphasis on good user interface design and usability is one of the key benefits of the GNOME platform. It elevates GNOME above other similar environments like KDE.” this is simply bs. If you like gnome, if you want to praise gnome, fine with me, but it’s unnecessary to spread fud about other environments.
And there is once again something that I don’t like about a lot of gnome advocats. The HIG is not the holy bible of usability. Just because there is the HIG doesn’t mean that gnome and gnome apps don’t have usability problems. They do, as is probably normal with any enviroment.
Really, don’t see any offenses with my comment but did OSNews.com become some sort of GNOME exclusive site recently ? I always thought that a news site has to be independant and rationale when it comes to reporting things. But in the past couple of weeks I see more GNOME news showing up here rather than on gnomedesktop.org which is curious.
Well, Daan, neither balsa nor pan are officially part of gnome, so they are prone to have HIG issues and less exposure to the gnome hackers community.
Evolution 2 will surely be the official gnome mail client and news reader for gnome 2.8, unless something goes wrong before september.
Indeed, especially with that GnomeFiles link on the top of every page at osnews.com
Besides that, I just noticed that
– Epiphany crashes reproducably when you close it
– bug-buddy has an usability problem: the sendmail parameters are placed right under the radio button “don’t use Sendmail”…
– Session management is still horribly broken, which can lead to data loss: when you are editing a new text document in gEdit, and try to logout, a “save as” dialog is displayed. If you click Cancel, Metacity, the Desktop and everything else quits, yet gEdit asks you whether you want to save your file. If you click “cancel” again, your file is lost.
Well, I can’t see how some nicer themes can cover up for all these and other major bugs.
What’s stopping you from using KMail/Mozilla Mail/Whatever from GNOME?
As I said, I can’t properly use IMAP with Evolution, and with me all other people who have an account at web.de, the most popular free mail service of Germany.
What’s stopping you from using KMail/Mozilla Mail/Whatever from GNOME?
Well, maybe I think an advantage of a Desktop Environment should be that all applications are consistent and integrated in look and feel?
KDE does everything I want: POP3 mail, IMAP, webbrowsing, reading news, instant messaging and displaying dvi files. Gnome’s applications, as I have explained above, generally a) are not there, b) are slow or c) have bugs making them unusable. So why would I switch?
Hi,
This was probably one of the finnest and cleanest articles i’ve read about the gnome desktop, it motivates me to install and test it rght now! The article really focus on what it matters that is the general experience rather than on tiny details.
For all of you who think that kde deserves the same merits then write a similar article about what makes kde so special.
GNOME developers seem to be very concerned with right-to-left vs. left-to-right button order, or “spatial” vs. “browser” file manager designs. Yet the “improved” (haha) file selector won’t allow you to navigate dot files, SMB network transparency with gnome-vfs is a sad joke… I for one cannot use this piece of crap.
KDE does everything I want: POP3 mail, IMAP, webbrowsing, reading news, instant messaging and displaying dvi files. Gnome’s applications, as I have explained above, generally a) are not there, b) are slow or c) have bugs making them unusable. So why would I switch?
I’ve used gnome a while back, but it seriously lacks the underlying technology that KDE offers. For example, Konqueror has no replacement at this point in time, Nautilus just doesn’t do the job. You can virtually use any protocol in Konqy and you’re done, from “http” to “sftp” to “mailto” (POP/IMAP). Just brilliant.
I agree. I’m a GNOME user/developer since 0.x (used KDE 1.x before that IIRC), and I would love to see a constructive KDE3 review posted here on OSNews.
Right now, my current judgement on KDE is based on the arguments posted here by (prepubertal?) KDE zealots trying to convince the world that they are right and nothing else matters… (The same could apply to some fanatic GNOME users aswell)
This is *not* intended as a flamebait, but merely a honest request…
You should take a look at this great article:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/004/software/kde-3.2/kde-3.2-01.html
Also to clarify what I meant.
I really liked the article. What I didn’t like were some dumb comments about kde in the article that were simply unnecessary.
“Nautilus (even though it can’t beat the speed of my 16 Mhz Macintosh SE/30) ”
I thought the SE 30 is 30mhz hence the 30 in the name. The standard SE is 16mhz.
You may now return to your Gnome vs. Kde battle.
This message has been brought to you by budweiser beer and the Duetche Fussbal bund.
Enjoy Isak:
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6123
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6677
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6309
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5776
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5776
So why would I switch?
Why are you looking for a reason to switch when you have an already configured desktop environment which seems to make you perfectly happy?
I don’t get the idea behind most posts following a DE review. Gnome and KDE both serve the same purpose using a different approach. Pick the one you feel most comfortable with and share with us why you prefer that one above the other but don’t expect people to convert you.
His critic on the Help System is completely unnecessary. He wrote:
>Despite its completeness, the appearance of this help
>tool is a little too spartan, even for GNOME. Basically, it
>resembles a plain black and white HTML document with lots
>of hyperlinks. This is boring!
His main concern for GNOMES’s competitivness seems to be if it ‘s Help System is as _coloured_ as on other desktops. This wouldnt be such a negative standout in this article if he mentioned some of GNOMES’s other weaknesses (concerning it’s core functionality!) which are brought up very often here at osnews, and really do need some work.
But as he seems to have spent more time making his page visually appealing than getting some points together, his only critic on GNOME in this whole review goes to:
>There is no appealing title page as an example.
>Hopefully, the help system will be a little more exciting
>and colorful in future releases.
Just make it resemble FisherPrice Toys and coloured as possible and users won’t even need help, because all other problems with GNOME will suddendly dissappear. Risible.
The Nautilus is apparently targeted for dumb users. Especially the “spatial” mode is totally useless for navigating deep file hierarchies like /usr or /var. Ok, one can switch it off, but tell me the reason the authors
did not bother to implement the most useful filesystem view – icons+names in columns. This is a view everybody I now uses as a default. It must be some religious reason not to include it (Or is the gtk widget missing this functionality ?).
> This is a view everybody I now uses as a default. It must be
> some religious reason not to include it
I dont know what the exact background is for not being able (willing) to implement this (IMHO essential) view, but i bet theres high probability that the answer would be that this view is a bad habbit of experienced users, so you shouldnt use it even if it was implemented, and getting not used to it is bad for novice users, and leaving a option to turn it on could bring a novice user turn it on accidentaly, so to beware them of the evil view (I for example refuse to use nautilus without) and even of a chance to get exposed to this by setting it deliberately on, the view wasnt implemented at all.
And dont anyone tell me this a troll because that is still the official the excuse for numerous features in GNOME one couldnt (wasnt “allowed”) turn on… or off.
I’m really sick and tired of hearing all of this whining. Instead of complaining about how there are no KDE articles here, do one of two things. Either submit news about KDE using the submit news link or write something original about KDE and submit it. Just whining about something and expecting it to change isn’t the attitude to have.
Respectfully,
Aaron
PS I don’t have a dog in this fight since I use a Mac, so don’t think that this is biased.
I think some comments about KDE from the author where really uncalled for. Why do people who prefer one project over another always have to bash another. The amusing thing is that on kde-apps.org and kde-look.org, there are actually positive views about GNOME and they also launched a new site last week, gnome-look.org. I think it’s high time this lame desktop wars came to an end. We are all free to use what we think is best for us but have to acknowledge that our views are not necessarily shared by others.
Oh, thanks. Now I have some articles/reviews to read 🙂
A real reason for yelling at osnews would be if they actually _refused_ to bring KDE articles on.
But as I know, osnews even _asked_ for anyone who has time to write a article and to offer it to osnews for publishing, and i dont remember reading “but please focus on our beloved GNOME” or “dont even bother to submit a KDE review”.
So instead of just sitting down and describing KDE a little, taking a few screenshots or whatever (the gnome review didnt contain anything else worth mentioning too, just things everyone knows and a few pretty pics), they just whine because nobody else does it.
I mean, this still arent writings you get paid for, the people write whatever they are a fan of, and just sitting there, doing nothing to change something you dont like, and complaining because the author did in his free time write about what _he_ likes, and not about _they_ like, starts to get embarassing.
GNOME developers seem to be very concerned with right-to-left vs. left-to-right button order, or “spatial” vs. “browser” file manager designs. Yet the “improved” (haha) file selector won’t allow you to navigate dot files, SMB network transparency with gnome-vfs is a sad joke… I for one cannot use this piece of crap.
Okay, just to confirm, I double checked my version of the file selector. I was able to successfully navigate dot files. Of course, I never use .dot files to store documents that I access regularly.
Maybe you could store your documents in a folder called Documents, rather than .documents, maybe that might help?
The Nautilus is apparently targeted for dumb users. Especially the “spatial” mode is totally useless for navigating deep file hierarchies like /usr or /var. Ok, one can switch it off, but tell me the reason the authors
did not bother to implement the most useful filesystem view – icons+names in columns. This is a view everybody I now uses as a default. It must be some religious reason not to include it (Or is the gtk widget missing this functionality ?).
Two things here. First, it’s not targetted toward dumb users. I find that spatial nautilus is in fact targetted at people who want to get other things done besides dealing with file management. I have also never had a problem getting to any location on my computer with spatial nautilus.
Also, the icons+names in columns does exist. I don’t understand what you mean it doesn’t exist? I am looking at it right now.
Really, both of you blabber on, repeating stuff you here from other people. The problem is, most of the problems you are presenting aren’t really problems with the desktop. Rather, you are regurgitating what you have read other places.
I dont know what the exact background is for not being able (willing) to implement this (IMHO essential) view, but i bet theres high probability that the answer would be that this view is a bad habbit of experienced users, so you shouldnt use it even if it was implemented, and getting not used to it is bad for novice users, and leaving a option to turn it on could bring a novice user turn it on accidentaly, so to beware them of the evil view (I for example refuse to use nautilus without) and even of a chance to get exposed to this by setting it deliberately on, the view wasnt implemented at all.
And dont anyone tell me this a troll because that is still the official the excuse for numerous features in GNOME one couldnt (wasnt “allowed”) turn on… or off.
If you don’t know the background, maybe you shouldn’t comment? By commenting, and assuming the parent poster was correct that it wasn’t implemented (which it is), you only make yourself look like an…well, nevermind. We have all heard about what happens when you assume.
Seriously people, I am not interested in a Gnome love fest. But everytime there is a Gnome topic posts, the flamers come out and bitch and whine for no good reason. They feel that their opinion, for some unknown reason, doesn’t matter.
Think about it: You aren’t using Gnome now, you aren’t contributing in anyway to Gnome, and you practically say that you won’t use Gnome. So why should the Gnome developers care what you say, especially when you have a large number of Gnome users who are happy with the improvements?
Frankly, your arguments are pretty much all the same. Regurgitated again and again.
Yes, there are always going to be problems with Gnome. That’s the reason we have versions. But don’t pretend that KDE, MacOS, or Windows doesn’t suffer from problems as well (and some problems that make using it very difficult).
I get to experience all four environments every day (yes, really, every day). Co-workers use KDE and Windows, and my GF uses Mac. I use Gnome at work and home.
Each person prefers his own desktop that works for them. I don’t want Gnome being anything other than Gnome. Gnome doesn’t feel like KDE, Mac, or Windows.
Simply put: If you don’t like Gnome, why are you using it? If you don’t use Gnome, why are you complaining? You’ve found something better already, right?
Okay, just to confirm, I double checked my version of the file selector. I was able to successfully navigate dot files. Of course, I never use .dot files to store documents that I access regularly.
Maybe you could store your documents in a folder called Documents, rather than .documents, maybe that might help?
Oh, so you are suggesting that I am an idiot for using dot files? Unfortunately some of the tools I have to work with are configured through dot files. Too bad I can’t edit them with gedit, because the file selector a) refuses to display them for selection and b) does not allow me to type the filename manually. You see, plain-text dot files are a REALITY on Unix-like systems, so maybe, just maybe, you should enable users to open them with the text editor? Isn’t that what the text editor is supposed to do? I would think so.
– Session management is still horribly broken, which can lead to data loss: when you are editing a new text document in gEdit, and try to logout, a “save as” dialog is displayed. If you click Cancel, Metacity, the Desktop and everything else quits, yet gEdit asks you whether you want to save your file. If you click “cancel” again, your file is lost.
Wait, your mad because you lost a file that twice you were given an opportunity to save and declined to? How is this a “major bug”?
KDE looks way better than gnome, but XP and MAC OS X look better than both. Linux is not ready for the desktop.
Exactly. I don’t like the themes, where is my start button, Linux is crap (Linux btw seems to be the only kernel having a complete DE and applications built in). Even more, since there is no C:, it is absolutely clear that Linux is viral hacker software which can turn your computer into a bomb.
(Seriously – i bet that guy didn’t even install the theme engines)
from the article:
and supports many features such as type-ahead find, tabbed browsing, and pop-up blocking.
Which are all features that epiphany also has. Nevermind, Firefox is a really good browser.
And just how did the author manage to stretch his top panel along both monitors in a xinerama setup? I can’t even get my gnome panels to show up between screens ( if i drag them around in “un-stretched” state they jump from one screen to the next).
So upgrade to the latest GTK. There’s now a “Show hidden files” menu when you rightclick.
So upgrade to the latest GTK. There’s now a “Show hidden files” menu when you rightclick.
Oh, I have that option. Unfortunately, it only helps in that .dot directories are displayed — I am still unable to select .dot files.
> Think about it: You aren’t using Gnome now, you aren’t
> contributing in anyway to Gnome, and you practically say
> that you won’t use Gnome. So why should the Gnome developers
> care what you say
First, I dont even assume GNOME developers are reading every single discussion board related to a gnome news. So everything thats being said, is _not_ complaining to the developers, which would happen in a, I suppose, more polite and discrete way. But this here is just a news site with people discussing what theyre into, and not some bug or feature request system.
BTW, the only time i talked to someone i found out was a dev directly was on #gnome, and about the minimizing animation of metacity way back in gnome 2.4. Summarized it sounded like this:
/me: hello, is there a way to disable the animation?
Dev: No, its not good for novice users.
/me: I’m not a novice user, and i find the animation distracting, is there some advanced option to disable it?
Dev: No, because its not good for novice users.
/me: So I’m left with this annoying animation and cant do anything about it at all?
Dev: Right, thats for novice user to not get suprised where the window suddendly disappeared.
/me leaves the channel, frustrated.
As I would say, a not small amount of problems with GNOME originates at the attitude towards users who dont 100% support all of the design decisions. I dont use KDE myself, but dont remember ever having to read someone bitching about KDE devs or some religious attitudes, as it is with gnome now. You just dont read something like that. The worst curse that can be thrown at you can be “If you dont like the default, change it according to your prefs.”
> Simply put: If you don’t like Gnome, why are you using it?
> If you don’t use Gnome, why are you complaining? You’ve
>found something better already, right?
So, there isnt a single Gnome user that would have something to complain about? And the ones that have arent worth getting noticed because they shouldnt be using it when they dont like it? Marvellous attitude. This is really it, as someone said, the new GNOME headline: “Dont bother complaining, Gnome always knows better”? Well, then just ignore trolls like /me and save your nerves.
So, there isnt a single Gnome user that would have something to complain about?
Where did you get that from? From my post:
“Seriously people, I am not interested in a Gnome love fest.”
And
“Yes, there are always going to be problems with Gnome.”
I have no problem with people presenting problems they have with Gnome, or suggestions for improvements. If you think otherwise, I suggest you read my original post before commenting on it.
My problem is that most of the comments are from non-Gnome users who merely regurgitate what they hear.
BTW, the only time i talked to someone i found out was a dev directly was on #gnome, and about the minimizing animation of metacity way back in gnome 2.4. Summarized it sounded like this:
So, based on one experience you claim to have had with a supposed Gnome developer. Think about that for a moment, and then get back to me.
As I would say, a not small amount of problems with GNOME originates at the attitude towards users who dont 100% support all of the design decisions.
I have to disagree. If you look at the development of Gnome, it’s very much not something where everyone supports 100% of what’s going on. They do listen to valid complaints, and try to improve their ‘product’.
“- Session management is still horribly broken, which can lead to data loss: when you are editing a new text document in gEdit, and try to logout, a “save as” dialog is displayed. If you click Cancel, Metacity, the Desktop and everything else quits, yet gEdit asks you whether you want to save your file. If you click “cancel” again, your file is lost. ”
Wait, your mad because you lost a file that twice you were given an opportunity to save and declined to? How is this a “major bug”?
Declining would be pressing “Don’t save”. No, instead I am talking about the “CANCEL” button. If you press it, the shutdown/logout procedure should be cancelled. Instead, with Gnome, your document is thrown away.
To put things into perspective: Windows, Mac OS and KDE cancel the logout/shutdown operation when you click cancel. Yet Gnome still interpretes the “cancel” button as “throw away”. And I do consider that a major flaw.
His icons and colors look like he is using KDE.
from the article:”Spatial mode Nautilus does provide some excellent features…..you can open a child folder while closing the parent folder at the same time.”
You can do this with nearly every filemanager (with one click)!
article:”By default, GNOME does use a top-down menu in the style of the Apple Macintosh interface.”
MacOS has an applicationmenu at the top. I haven’t found this in GNOME 2.6. Or have I missesd something? Only this applicationmenu makes the differene.
And you can have this applicationmenu at the top with KDE.
To open a dot file in gedit: click OPEN, then type control-L, then type the path of your dot file.
Can someone tell me how to open one in Kedit?
» Can someone tell me how to open one in Kedit?
Alt-F, O, F8, select the file
Works since ages like that …
> Can someone tell me how to open one in Kedit?
From the Open file dialog:
– Click on the configure icon on the toolbar, Show hidden files
or
– Right click on the filelist box->View->Show hidden files
or
– simply press F8
thanks
What do GNOME-users do with the screenshot program? I have used this program 2x in some years, but at GNOME it has a very special place in the menu.
Are they always waiting for the right moment when the screen has the required gnome-ish cleanness that they can publish the screenshot in a review?
They seem to be shunning the intermediate user. Yes, they are great for a novice user, I don’t doubt,and probably decent for the advanced user that can be bothered with GConf and spends all his time using a CLI anyway, thus avoiding the broken spatial mode, and when he does use an app, uses non-Gnome ones like firefox, the gimp, xterm, etc. But for the intermediate user (read: the user who wants to get some work done with Gnome) they seem really bad. They give off an arrogant aura of being unwilling to listen to user complaints or allow Gnome to be at all flexible.<P>
Unfortunately for Gnome, right now linux is getting a whole flood of intermediate users from the world of windows, now that is is usable by non-experts, and they are aiming too low. Thus KDE is scooping them all up, and Gnome is continuuing to haemorhage its users, only continuuing thanks to hefty devlopment support from Sun and Red Hat (which will finally vanish if they choose Mono).<P>
So I’m really not very confident about the future of Gnome. It has got things arse-backwards; it has focused on usability by removing flexibility, and neglected its core infrastructure. They’ve always been a tad suspect there (who would choose C as a language suitable for writing GUIs??).<P>
Finally, Gnome has always been about chasing and combatting the “threat” to linux, whatever it may be. So it was founded first to battle the threat of KDE, then that transmogrified into the “threat” of COM, now it is the threat of .Net that Gnome seems to be all abotu opposing. There’s been not nearly as much focus on providing a top notch technical framework beneath it all.<P>
So when Gnome finally suffers a possible split, as I forecast, or a flight of developers to match the flight of users in its controversial future, I see KDE settling into being the de facto choice for linux. It has focused on the technological aspects first, which represent 90% of the work of getting a decent, usable desktop, and it looks like for KDE4 they will be focusing on usability garnishing – yet without sacrificing flexibility as Gnome have done. When that happens, I don’t see any hope for Gnome.
I really like the new Gnome desktop. The GUI is nice and consistant, I even like the new spatialness. But there is one big problem that is a real show stopper.
You can’t connect to windows shares on the network. The network icon is there but when you click it, it takes for ever (15 minutes or so) before the windows networks shows up. If it shows up at all that is. And then if you click on a specific machine you the log in always fails. I have experienced thes bugs on both SuSE (Gnome 2.4) and Fedora versions of Gnome as well as Gnome compiled from scratch and the bug remains. KDE does this really well, and currently this is the only reason I would recomend KDE over Gnome for enterprise use. This needs to be fixed.
I don’t see a flood of intermediate users adopting Linux right now. (Still at 1 or 2 percent according to Google’s Zeitgeist.) I see office workers, who shouldn’t be mucking with advanced settings because they don’t know what they’re doing, and the usual hobbyists. Office workers’ employers are the paying customers that the Gnome-centric companies are after. KDE is an excellent DE for intermediate people. Properly set up it’s also great for beginners. I’m glad that (according to you) efforts are underway to improve KDE’s useability. I don’t see any imminent demise of either desktop, and I think that’s a good thing.
“I thought the SE 30 is 30mhz hence the 30 in the name. The standard SE is 16mhz.”
I always thought that it was called SE 30 because used a Motorola 68030 instead of 68000 processor. That fact would have more inpact on performance that the different clock frequency. I’m not even sure it was 30MHz.
Sorry couldn’t resist replying even though way of topic, I just felt a bit nostalgic about those old Apple boxes.
When that happens, I don’t see any hope for Gnome.
Sure Gnome has a future. Gnome has always been about the future, i.e. becoming good/better than KDE/usable “any day now”. So far KDE has been superior, but the choices Gnome have made might pay back really well in the not-too-distant future (esp. the choice of Gtk as opposed to GPL:s Qt). I’m pretty content on waiting for that, using KDE in the meantime.
…then that transmogrified into the “threat” of COM
That’s a fantastic word by the way. What was the threat of COM, and how did people react? I must have missed that one.
It was very funny. Remember what G.N.O.M.E originally stood for? Well, all that.
If you’re going to review Gnome then by all means do, but don’t bring up silly inconsequential things that are, quite frankly, not issues at all. It just seemed to be based on having a few digs at KDE throughout. The licensing of Qt has been done to death in the past, and to corporates and enterprizes (you know – those things that Gnome is supposedly targetting and supposedly has the backing of) the licensing of Qt is not an issue at all. I find it staggering that people still don’t understand their supposed target market. The Newsforge article on developing silly LGPLd Gnome shareware applications has rammed that home to me.
They were buggier, slower, and not as visually appealing. Many wondered if it was really worth it to try GNOME or to contribute to GNOME.
I would argue that is still the case in many ways. KDE isn’t perfect (and neither is Windows), but in terms of development, and more importantly, infrastructure, there is absolutely nothing currently in Gnome that I want to see – or there is some things I want to see that aren’t there (non-CORBA technology, a simple component architecture, scripting for general office applications etc.). That’s not a flame, that’s my Windows developer side talking.
…as KDE was proving to be wildly successful.
Still is.
When KDE 2.0 was released in October of 2000, it proved to be a large disappointment.
Really? Not many other people noticed.
Spatial mode Nautilus does provide some excellent features that help make it easier to use. First off, is the notion of “shift-clicking”. By holding down the shift key while double clicking on a folder (or by double-clicking with the middle mouse button), you can open a child folder while closing the parent folder at the same time.
Goodness me, you think that’s usable?! Given that the middle mouse button on a PC is the wheel, I’d love to see you talk someone through double-clicking it.
Look, I’ve talked users, over the phone, through the process of opening up Windows Explorer and using the little + next to a folder or drive to expand it so they can see what’s inside. They can then navigate to the right folder and file without problems. Users get it OK, and they have done for about fifteen years, and these are the office workers people hum and har about. Why can’t Gnome? There are more intermediate users out there than you might think.
The guidelines start by discussing principles such as “Design for People” and “Don’t Limit Your User Base”.
Good ideas.
This emphasis on good user interface design and usability is one of the key benefits of the GNOME platform. It elevates GNOME above other similar environments like KDE.
Don’t kid yourself. You can’t sell usability to people (especially enterprizes), and usability is fundamentally tied to the requirements of your desktop and applications. Getting that right is hard and takes time, and you have to go through periods where things look pretty disjointed. Usability != simplification, and it is very easy to take the easy way out.
This emphasis on good user interface design and usability is one of the key benefits of the GNOME platform. It elevates GNOME above other similar environments like KDE.
Is that it then?
Not all applications that are written for the GNOME platform are HIG compliant at this time. These efforts are continuing. In their current incarnation, popular applications like the GIMP and Novell Evolution are not compliant. Evolution 2.0, which will be released in the near future, will indeed comply with the GNOME HIG.
Oh, 100% HIG compliance. A very important goal
.
The file chooser dialog has improved greatly in this release as a result on a continued focus on usability.
I don’t know about anyone else, but that file chooser looks terrible. What on Earth are the buttons at the top for, and how do you know where the folders listed on the left are situated? Where’s the network? Part of usability is getting a handle on where it is that you actually are.
As a complete desktop environment, GNOME does ship with some other useful applications, most (if not all) of which are written to adhere to the HIG.
If applications have to be written to adhere to a HIG then they aren’t really part of the desktop environment.
…that some non-Gnome applications like The Gimp (which the author of the article brags about as being a Gnome application) would be HIG-compliant!
I really do sincerely hope that the GIMP is not HIG compliant. Having ten dozen small Windows open all over the place is no way to get anything done. The GIMP is an object lesson in how not to design any kind of interface.
Novell Evolution
Since when did it become Novell Evolution? This is a free software project, is it not? I take it the developers are trying to hint at something here…
There is even some talk amongst GNOME developers that this browser could replace Epiphany as the default for future releases of GNOME.
In other words, our browsers are just not good enough so we need to find any way possible to make Mozilla a Gnome application. I’d like to see them apply the Gnome HIG to it or Open Office.
There is a lot of debate in the GNOME community, much of which centers on what programming languages to base GNOME on in the future.
while( !horse() )
{
cart();
}
And in the glossary:
KDE predates GNOME, but had some licensing controversy early in its existence. KDE is free and open source today, and is similar in capabilities to GNOME in many respects. KDE is known more for its configurability and solid technology than for its usability.
They just can’t leave it alone
.
Daan, I presume you know web.de has a pop3 server as well?
I can tell you from experience it works quite nicely with Evolution.
Damn, how do you get spaces around here? They came out fine on the preview.
I really do sincerely hope that the GIMP is not HIG compliant. Having ten dozen small Windows open all over the place is no way to get anything done. The GIMP is an object lesson in how not to design any kind of interface.
Hehe, never used Photoshop on the Mac, have you?
As a side note, where do you get 10 dozen (120) small Windows open? When Gnome starts up, I have 2. When I open Photoshop here on the Mac (just did it), I count 3. So how is it that Gimp is wrong for having 2, and Photoshop is good for having 3?
“Daan, I presume you know web.de has a pop3 server as well?
I can tell you from experience it works quite nicely with Evolution.”
Of course I know. But the very reason for me to use web.de, was that it offers IMAP for free, so that I can also retrieve my mail when I boot to Windows, or when I am at school, or whatever. So for me, using Evolution+pop3 would be het kind met het badwater weggooien.
———————————–
Rather funny, indeed, that the author of the article is still moaning about the “licensing controversy” of KDE, that was solved quite some time ago. Actually, if he does that, one can equally well say that since QT was made open source, the very reason for GNOME to exist, namely writing a free replacement for the evil, proprietary KDE, doesn’t exist anymore, thus meaning that GNOME is obsolete.
However, I would say, don’t look at the history, look at how it is now: two open-source desktop environments that can learn from eachother.
———————————–
Last point: the SE/30 has a 68030 processor running at 16 Mhz, and a 68882 FPU. The normal SE has a 68000 at 8 Mhz.
More and More it seems people have to justify their use of gnome.
Almost like making excuses for the local football team.
(Cleveland Browns in my case)
Next year we will have a better quater back, and if we make it into the play offs, we are sure to win the super bowl.
Does anybody have any links to resources that will show me how to get fonts on Gnome or KDE that are as good as cleartype fonts in XP. Everytime I reboot into Gnome 2.6 I just think how shitty the fonts look compared to XP no matter what font I choose.
Also, nautilus has made some big improvements, but overall Gnome still feels sluggish even on a fast system with lots of ram.
I think Gnome still has 2-3 years of work in order to be a serious contender, but they are making progress.
Almost like making excuses for the local football team. (Cleveland Browns in my case)
So that happens in the US as well? It’s the same everywhere isn’t it? It’s Newcastle United in my case.
Next year we might qualify for the Champion’s League, but I’m not holding my breath….
Does anybody have any links to resources that will show me how to get fonts on Gnome or KDE that are as good as cleartype fonts in XP. Everytime I reboot into Gnome 2.6 I just think how shitty the fonts look compared to XP no matter what font I choose.
Well, there are some patented bits and pieces that can’t appear officially. However, the fault tends to be that many fonts just look bad to start off with. Try some better quality fonts.
Listen, Eugenia’s personal opinions on the two desktops are well known. She prefers Gnome because she thinks it has a better interface and that KDE is too cluttered. She has acknowledged that KDE has better underlying technology.
Who really cares anyway, both desktops still suck. Get over it.
The licensing of Qt has been done to death in the past, and to corporates and enterprizes (you know – those things that Gnome is supposedly targetting and supposedly has the backing of) the licensing of Qt is not an issue at all
*Cough*, bullshit. You really don’t get it do you, but that’s alright because many people don’t understand the issues with the QT license and how it’s utterly retarded to have a desktop based on a proprietary toolkit whose license can be changed at whim.
I would argue that is still the case in many ways. KDE isn’t perfect (and neither is Windows), but in terms of development, and more importantly, infrastructure, there is absolutely nothing currently in Gnome that I want to see – or there is some things I want to see that aren’t there (non-CORBA technology, a simple component architecture, scripting for general office applications etc.). That’s not a flame, that’s my Windows developer side talking.
Completely agree. Gnome is severly lacking a good component infrastructure. Of course the Red Hat guys putz around saying that Mono and Java isn’t free enough and then go on to say that they’ll go ahead and cobble together some half-assed tech that might be usable in 5 years if ever.
Goodness me, you think that’s usable?! Given that the middle mouse button on a PC is the wheel, I’d love to see you talk someone through double-clicking it.
Hehe, I know, even though I like the concept of spatial, having to click the wheel button on the mouse is horrendous.
I really do sincerely hope that the GIMP is not HIG compliant. Having ten dozen small Windows open all over the place is no way to get anything done. The GIMP is an object lesson in how not to design any kind of interface
You can throw glade into that category too. Do these morons even understand that we don’t want to alt-tab through 18 windows of bullshit.
In other words, our browsers are just not good enough so we need to find any way possible to make Mozilla a Gnome application. I’d like to see them apply the Gnome HIG to it or Open Office.
Getting parts of Mozilla integrated into Gnome makes perfect sense. Why should Gnome go through the hassle of inventing another kthml. Epiphany and Galeon and Firebird are all Mozilla-based. Gnome never had its own browser that I’m aware of.
David, you make some good points but you’re way off base about QT. Qt is the biggest reason why Gnome will eventually have many, many more desktops than KDE.
DAAN
I am both a KDE & Gnome user, but am using Gnome more these days. As for things crashing and not running that stable in Gnome 2.6.x, I had also experienced the same thing, especially w/ applications like Epiphany and some times even the Gnome Panel…
I recommend checking out the latest version of the unstable branch, Gnome 2.7.2. I know installing the unstable branch might not sound like a fix, but trust me it is, all the problems Gnome 2.6.x had are no more in 2.7.x and in general that branch of Gnome seems to be allot more stable.
Now I know others who use Gnome 2.6.x and don’t seem to have any of the problems I did, but given the fact, that I had the same problems on two different distro, I am willing to venture and say it’s not just me…
Anyway, give it try…
Tough crowd
Oh well, at least my cable modem is still working… signing up for that 1.0Mbps upstream account really paid off. I wasn’t sure what was going to happen there… I guess the day is still young.
Looking back on the article, I did my best for a first effort, no regrets. Next time (GNOME 2.8 maybe?), I’ll leave out the explicit references to my percieved shortcomings of KDE which seemed to bother some of the users from that camp. It wasn’t my intention to start another KDE vs. GNOME flamewar (honest!)
I do stand by the things I said about GNOME, they are opinions and I really do find GNOME to be a friendly desktop that meets my needs admirably.
I think I might tone down on the screenshots next time as well, unless I can find like a 10Mb pipe or something… 😉
*Cough*, bullshit. You really don’t get it do you, but that’s alright because many people don’t understand the issues with the QT license and how it’s utterly retarded to have a desktop based on a proprietary toolkit whose license can be changed at whim.
1) GPL == not proprietory. The whole point of the GPL is to prevent the code from ever becoming proprietory.
2) The license cannot be changed at will. If Trolltech changes licenses:
a) The existing code would remain under the GPL;
b) If the new license was not open-source, the existing code would be released under BSD.
*Cough*, bullshit. You really don’t get it do you, but that’s alright because many people don’t understand the issues with the QT license and how it’s utterly retarded to have a desktop based on a proprietary toolkit whose license can be changed at whim.
It’s utterly retarded how many people don’t understand the concepts of licensing. If I have a copy of QT under the gpl, I must continue to comply with that license. If trolltech changes their license, it doesn’t matter. I can still for the rest of time distribute QT under the gpl, as can EVERYONE else that receives a copy under that license. AND, Trolltech and the Kde project have an agrement that they will license QT under the bsd/mit license if trolltech is bought or goes under. Kde also has a say in what license trolltech puts QT under.
http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation.php
“I really do sincerely hope that the GIMP is not HIG compliant. Having ten dozen small Windows open all over the place is no way to get anything done. The GIMP is an object lesson in how not to design any kind of interface. ”
I’m glad you obviously don’t write interfaces, because multiple small windows is wonderful to deal with. Although it’d be nice if window managers and taskbars supported grouping all those windows, but I usually throw them in a seperate desktop.
I don’t think Gimp is HIG compliant though, it offers too many options and such. But maybe they say it is anyway.
HIG isn’t necessarily good for everything. Some things end up being proprietary and it doesn’t matter so much. If you spend all day working with the app you don’t care if the others work the same. Things do need to be logical to use though.
>*Cough*, bullshit. You really don’t get it do you, but that’s alright because many people don’t understand the issues with the QT license and how it’s utterly retarded to have a desktop based on a proprietary toolkit whose license can be changed at whim.
Now I prefer Gnome to KDE, but I must call foul. What difference does it make if, sometime in the future, KDE were to make QT proprietary only? There would still be the last GPL version to work from, much like the whole XFree86 debacle.
> It’s utterly retarded how many people don’t understand the concepts of licensing. If I have a copy of QT under the gpl, I must continue to comply with that license. If trolltech changes their license, it doesn’t matter. I can still for the rest of time distribute QT under the gpl, as can EVERYONE else that receives a copy under that license. AND, Trolltech and the Kde project have an agrement that they will license QT under the bsd/mit license if trolltech is bought or goes under. Kde also has a say in what license trolltech puts QT under.
Any windows programmer can take free (as beer) tools an create non-gpl windows programs. QT under GPL forbids
development of non-gpl KDE soft.
KDE programmer MUST pay $1500 minimum to develop non-gpl soft (even if it is non-commercial).
Maybe you think than $1500 – is not much? In my country this
is good programmer’s salary for 3-5 months. I don’t think it is acceptable. Big corporations can pay this money, but how
about small companies/individual developers? Especialy in third world countries? Or you think only citizens of
“golden milliard” countries can afford coftware development?
This is MAIN reason, why Gnome has great chances to win.
As a side note, where do you get 10 dozen (120) small Windows open?
That was pretty inaccurate, and a bit of an exaggeration
.
The problem with the GIMP is that when it opens up it doesn’t look like a complete application. You get a couple of snappable Windows, but there is just way too much space around. When you start using a canvas, and other toolboxes, there is no over-arching application windows to bring it together and you have palettes that tend to take focus completely when you click on one. If you have other applications open it then becomes a real problem. It’s improved with version 2, but not greatly.
A bad feature is the dialogue you get when you close an image that has changed. It asks you whether you want to cancel or discard, and discard is the default option here. There should be a save, discard and cancel set of buttons available. This has tended to put me off using the GIMP for a while, as this has made me bang my desk a few times.
But, having said all that it is still the only current free application that does the powerful things it does.
The real problem with QT is that it’s pretty ridiculous to be paying $1500 per developer per platform for a toolkit no matter if you’re a big corporation or a one man shop. Heck you don’t even get an IDE with the stupid thing. Qt isn’t business friendly and that’s why someone like IBM should buy them out.
Microsoft gives you the c++/.NET tools for free these days. You just don’t the IDE.
There is no up to date free QT version for windows.
You might as well stick with wxWidgets or some of the other crossplatform toolkits that have much better licenses if you intend on doing crossplatform work.
*Cough*, bullshit. You really don’t get it do you, but that’s alright because many people don’t understand the issues with the QT license and how it’s utterly retarded to have a desktop based on a proprietary toolkit whose license can be changed at whim.
Developing proprietary and custom software in an enterprize is far, far, far removed from telling everyone to develop everything for free – because it isn’t. There is no issue with Qt, and there never has been but we’ve been through this before. It is now GPLd, although the license in the past has never been restrictive to the KDE developers – who are ultimately the people that mattered. Quite why the FSF people thought it was their business was anybody’s guess. Unfortunately, the people at the FSF saw what KDE was achieving, went berserk, wanted to own it, cried when they didn’t like the license and tried to create something exactly like it. I’ve read the past archive listings and they are pretty clear.
The reason why KDE uses Qt is because it is the best toolkit for doing what it does, and is why Gnome is running round in ever increasing circles. Both Trolltech and KDE benefit from the partnership, and a legal agreement was formulated about the the future of Qt which is detailed in here:
http://kdemyths.urbanlizard.com/
This is required reading.
This cannot be changed at a whim. Qt is GPLd, legally you can’t go back on that, and that’s the end of the matter. I don’t know about anyone else but I find that incredible, that a company would spend money on lawyers actually getting that done. I don’t know, but maybe working in an enterprize has toyed with my brain. This is only to be encouraged.
I don’t call that retarded, but there you go.
In the future I’m sure that KDE infrastructure will be exposed so that LGPL (or other licensed) options written in Java, or something else, can be written taking advantage of KDE infrastructure and look and feel. In some small way this has already been achieved with QtGTK. Make no mistake though – for custom and proprietary software enterprizes want to buy licenses because they are making an investment, and some people just don’t realize that the FUD thrown around about Qt over this is just not FUD at all.
Dredging this up again is rather pointless because it is obvious that few understand it, but there you go. If anyone wondered what all the hoo hah on the Userlinux mailing list was about, that was a large part of it. It wasn’t about KDE and Gnome, it was about encouraging the free software we already have and understanding what was required from enterprizes rather than telling everyone they could write everything for free. That concept is totally alien to enterprizes. For people who want to target the enterprize some seem to have a very large gulf in their understanding (and worse – pure conceptualization) of what is actually required.
We’ve had this for years though, so that as they say, is that.
The real problem with QT is that it’s pretty ridiculous to be paying $1500 per developer per platform for a toolkit no matter if you’re a big corporation or a one man shop
Maybe it’s because Trolltech is located in Norway, one of the most expensive countries in the world? I mean, probably the janitor there earns more than a top-developer in most poor countries
It wasn’t my intention to start another KDE vs. GNOME flamewar (honest!)
Oh, don’t bother apologizing. They’ll always get dragged up whatever anyone does!
Next time (GNOME 2.8 maybe?), I’ll leave out the explicit references to my percieved shortcomings of KDE which seemed to bother some of the users from that camp.
Shortcomings in KDE are fine, so keep dredging them up. We’ve all got them. What doesn’t help is the licensing history which hasn’t been a shortcoming at all, certainly not for KDE.
I do stand by the things I said about GNOME, they are opinions and I really do find GNOME to be a friendly desktop that meets my needs admirably.
Well, that’s ultimately what matters isn’t it? Unfortunately, people then bring up licensing issues because they then think that *insert favourite free software project here* is going to take over the enterprize and conquer the world. That’s a different ball-game.
I think I might tone down on the screenshots next time as well, unless I can find like a 10Mb pipe or something… 😉
Good idea. Some of them were a bit large, even on my good ADSL connection.
Qt designer can be used as an IDE.
Maybe it’s because Trolltech is located in Norway, one of the most expensive countries in the world? I mean, probably the janitor there earns more than a top-developer in most poor countries
Here’s the problem. We’re a c++ shop doing a lot of custom network protocol tweaking work. We needed something that would run on linux and windows. Now since we’re c++ developers, qt would be a natural fit for some software that needed to be written that was ancillary to our main software -namely configuration and remote management software. So we don’t make money off of this software, it comes with the package. So you figure 2 developers, 2 platforms come out to $6k. Not big money, but we’re not making money off of this software anyway. We said screw it, and decided on java, GCJ, and SWT. It’ll look better on windows anyway, will be easier to develop with, and most importantly won’t cost us a dime.
There is way to many fanboys commenting today. Maybe we need to start checking the sugar and caffenine levels around here again.
Trolltech and the Kde project have an agrement that they will license QT under the bsd/mit license if trolltech is bought or goes under. Kde also has a say in what license trolltech puts QT under.
Just wondering, if a company buys out Trolltech and QT, can this foundation really inforce this agreement? Isn’t a company entitled to do whatever they want with their product?
KDE programmer MUST pay $1500 minimum to develop non-gpl soft (even if it is non-commercial).
Correction: it’s $1500 if you develop a non-open-source application. The only restriction the GPL has on linking is that the license must be GPL-compatible, not entirely GPL. Thus, you can write BSD-licensed apps that link with GPL code. Actually, since Qt is licensed under the QPL too, you can write apps with *any* open-source license.
Also, the payment is only necessary if you’re going to be making end-user apps (thus distributing the code). If you’re only going to make apps internal to your organization, you don’t have to pay nor do you have to open your code. Since 90% of software development is for internal software, this is a significant point.
In the end, $1500 is 1-2 weeks salary for a programmer in a developed country. So the subset of people for which Trolltech’s license is a show-stopper can be summed up as:
1) Those programmers developing non-OSS software;
2) Meant for distribution outside their organization;
3) Living outside of North America, Western Europe, Japan, Hong-Kong, Singapore, or generally in any country with less than a $25,000 per capita GDP;
4) Who aren’t subcontracting for a corporation based in one of the above countries, which can afford to pay for development tools;
5) And who don’t think they’ll make enough money on their product to be able to use Trolltech’s alternate pricing models.
How many prospective programmers really fit all five of those constraints? What real loss is it if those few that do develop instead for GNOME? How is that loss outweighed by the fact that Trolltech’s licensing fees allow them to keep some very dedicated people working full time on Qt?
Just wondering, if a company buys out Trolltech and QT, can this foundation really inforce this agreement? Isn’t a company entitled to do whatever they want with their product?
Good question. Who knows that if the agreement is even legally binding when you factor in shareholders rights and other stuff.
Just wondering, if a company buys out Trolltech and QT, can this foundation really inforce this agreement? Isn’t a company entitled to do whatever they want with their product?
Within the limits of contract law, yes they do. However, a company cannot just go voiding past written contracts because their new owners have changed their mind. Also, the existing code will always be under GPL. There is no provision, in the US, for retroactively revoking the license on a particular work.
@Lumbergh: Trolltech is a private company, and thus, they have no shareholders, so shareholders rights are a non-issue. Also, remember that the FreeQt agreement is a signed contract between Trolltech and KDE that was written by lawyers, not programmers. If there were “other stuff” that could hamper the deal, I’m sure the suits would have taken it into consideration.
“The real problem with QT is that it’s pretty ridiculous to be paying $1500 per developer per platform for a toolkit no matter if you’re a big corporation or a one man shop. ”
I wouldnåt say it is all that rediculous, QT is a very good tookit and you can create your applications very fast using it. In many cases time to market is the essential factor that determins if you make any profit or not. And $1500 isn’t all that expensive if you compare with other tools for professional use. In professional software development the highest cost is developer saleries, so you make sure they have good tools. QT is one such tool.
“I think Gnome still has 2-3 years of work in order to be a serious contender, but they are making progress.”
Consider where Gnome, or any free desktop for that matter, was 2-3 years ago. My guess is that they will have something really slick much sooner. After all they are moving in the right direction, Gnome 2.6 is much faster than its predecessor. And even now I wouldn’t say that Gnome is any worse than e.g. what Microsoft have to offer. Whats lacking is applications.
Taken from trolltechs site:
Trolltech’s shares are currently owned by employees, the Trolltech Foundation and investors, with the following distribution:
Employees 64.7%
Borland 8.3%
Trolltech Foundation 5.2%
Orkla ASA 4.3%
Northzone Ventures 4.3%
Teknoinvest 4.3%
Canopy Group 4.1%
Previous employees 3.4%
SCO Group 1.6%
“freeqt” is a joke, it’s really nice to see that people are beginning to discuss it seriously. Even qt trolls like David(Newcastle fan) knows the problems with it.
Go GTK! Go gnomefiles.org! Nice work OSNEWS crew!
Um, all you’ve proven is Trolltech is a company owned mostly by it’s employees. Congratulations. That does not change the fact that Trolltech is a private company. It has private investors, but no *public* shareholders. The laws (eg: SEC filings and whatnot) that apply to companies with public stock do not apply to Trolltech. In any case, if you insist that FreeQt is a joke, perhaps you’d like to present a nuanced legal basis for your claim, and explain what mistakes Trolltech’s lawyers made when they drafted the agreement. I assume, of course, that you are a reputable copyright lawyer who is in a position to judge the competence of Trolltech’s legal representation!
I actually only mentioned the KDE licensing issues (of the past) to explain WHY GNOME was founded. As QT is now licesned under the GPL, (I mention this as well) this is no longer a concern. I can’t see the usage of QT today on a linux desktop being a concern, the GPL is the GPL. Trolltech does have every right to establish a business model for themselves. Heck I have a lot of respect for the choice and the route that they took!
KDE is a great desktop too btw, I played with (and reviewed KDE 3.2.1 back in March) for a week solid. I do hate Keramik, I do not think it is a good default theme. Its as downright ugly in my view. I do realize that different people have different tastes. I can only speak of my opinion. Plastik on the other hand (which should be the default) is a really nice theme, the nicest KDE has ever had.
I also think KDE needs to simplify and reduce clutter. However, my KDE setup is looking pretty sweet these days. I managed to find the Nuvola SVG icon theme for KDE as well as GNOME, and it really helps to make Konqueror look much nicer (in file manager mode). Also, I do like to use Konqueror in addition to Mozilla to surf the web. Konqueror works with my remote exchange client better than any Gecko based browser does (specifically the reply button works).
GNOME does win points with me for presenting a cleaner interface to the user however. Because a cleaner, simpler interface is higher on _my_ hierarchy of importance, I prefer GNOME presently. I do not think I am unjustified in criticizing KDE for the clutter. I am not the only one who holds this view either. Some times more is just too much.
I am a big believer in freedesktop.org and increased co-operation between KDE and GNOME. Both can form a symbiotic relationship which can bring benefits to all linux desktop users.
One poster earlier asked if I still used Kopete… sadly it didn’t work with the GNOME “system tray” so I stuck with GAIM. I do hope this changes however. There are lots of great KDE apps that I love… KStars is just amazing as an example.
Make sure antialiasing isn’t turned off. Cleartype is Microsoft’s spin on antialiasing.
Use either the Bitstream Vera fonts or one of the MS web fonts. Everything else that’s likely to be in your distribution will look awful.
The review is fine. I don’t know much about GNOME vs KDE but I can use their applications on either desktop. Being Fedora Core 2 users, Gnome 2.8 = Fedora Core 3.
Isn’t the KDE/QT license detrimental to commercial shareware? At least in comparison to GTK+ stuff?
Of course, I guess that on Windows, most shareware programmers have probably forked out for Microsoft Visual C++, so maybe it’s no big deal, but GTK+/GNOME seems to be the clear choice for small-time commercial shareware developers.
What is this for?
http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/COPYING
wrong article (tab)
Shareware has no future. You heard it hear folks. Commodity stuff that can be done quickly will be subsumed by open source, and OSS and commercial software will duke it out for stuff like Photoshop. Some stuff (eg: XSI), will probably always remain the domain of proprietory software.
Nobody is going to pay money for something like Winzip or Winamp.
—“Overall, it [Nautilus] is the best file manager I have ever used… The only feature that is missing in a glaring way is the inclusion of “spring loaded” folders.”
Last I checked, Nautilus can’t do a recursive permissions/attributions change on the files and subdirectories within a folder. Has that changed w/ 2.6.x? That’s the one killer feature of Konqueror and Windows Explorer.
—“Customizing the GNOME menus is also very easy. Unlike KDE which requires a special menu-editing program, right clicking on a menu brings up various options which permit you to alter the menus to your liking.”
This is one of my biggest gripes with both KDE and GNOME; both of their menu editing systems are crap.
KDE’s menu editor isn’t realtime (sometimes u need to restart your KDE session b4 u see your menu changes)… and it also seems to be a little quirky/picky about which of your changes it decides to implement.
GNOME’s approach is simpler, but it also has a similar quirky/selective nature to it. Some additions u make don’t take properly (icon missing or shortcut ineffective); some work fine… Also, changing an existing menu entry’s icon is pretty straightforward, but it doesn’t seem to work all the time (the icon doesn’t change or appears as an empty *blank* space).
Don’t stab me for saying this, but I find MS Window’s filesystem (folders/shorcuts) approach to the Menu system a little superior. I’d like to be able to create a group of folders with names corresponding to the shortcuts contained therein (Office, Utilities, Multimedia, etc.)… and then create shortcuts within these folders (perhaps through a context menu in the File Manager, like in Windows). Then, I’d expect these changes to be *instantaneously* visible in the KDE/GNOME menu.
People already work with files/folders on a day-to-day basis; giving them another special program just to add menus can confuse things. From this perspective, I’d say to scrap the KDE menu system… and simplify it as mentioned above.
GNOME’s approach is like a half-assed microsoft implementation (right-clicking on the menu for a context of options). They should clean out the quirky bugs, but also extend the menu system to a group of folders/subfolders, thus providing a SOLID means to edit it via nautilus.
…just my opinion
Just wondering, if a company buys out Trolltech and QT, can this foundation really inforce this agreement? Isn’t a company entitled to do whatever they want with their product?
If another company buys the shares in Trolltech, then the obligations binding on the company prior to the share sale remain binding on the company following the sale.
If Trolltech were to sell its assets (as opposed to the shares being sold), including QT, then that would be a different story. The new owner of those assets would not (without something being written into the sale agreement) be bound by obligations entered into by the old owner relating to those assets. I have not read the agreement, however, I would imagine that there will be clause to the effect that if QT itself is sold, then Trolltech must ensure that the purchaser of QT agrees to be bound by the terms of the agreement – that would be the only way to ensure that the obligations are passed on to the new owner (at least that I know of – there may be other laws in Norway that might preserve the agreement on a sale of assets). But, either way, anything already released under the GPL will ALWAYS be GPL.
Matt
Last I checked, Nautilus can’t do a recursive permissions/attributions change on the files and subdirectories within a folder. Has that changed w/ 2.6.x?
Has worked since 2.4.x, actually…
“Not on a cheapskate platform like linux where every kiddie not only demands the software to be free but thinks it’s his/her right to have the source code.”
As opposed to a cheapskate platform like Windows, where every kiddy downloads and uses cracks for all shareware apps he can find on shareware.com? Just look around, how many people do you know have actually paid for WinZip? I know none.
And there are Linux users who paid for Opera, Linux games and distributions. So there, your argument is invalid.
It seems that either Windows users use only the software that came with their box or they rip software with key generators like mad.
I got one of these guys in a cube next to me.
Linux users are all cheapskate users stuff? Give me a break.
_
“freeqt” is a joke, it’s really nice to see that people are beginning to discuss it seriously. Even qt trolls like David(Newcastle fan) knows the problems with it.
Ooooo. Yer – whatever. Don’t know what problems you think I think there are with free qt – but – case closed. As I said before, you don’t understand.
“Goodness me, you think that’s usable?! Given that the middle mouse button on a PC is the wheel, I’d love to see you talk someone through double-clicking it.
”
click on the wheel. i have been doing that for about 2 years here. works the same as a mouse button. really. try it