Home > Linux > Linux Surpasses Mac as No. 2 Desktop OS, Says HP, IDCLinux Surpasses Mac as No. 2 Desktop OS, Says HP, IDC Eugenia Loli 2004-08-05 Linux 81 Comments“Linux captured the No. 2 spot as desktop operating system in 2003,” said IDC analyst Dan Kusnetzky. By 2007, IDC estimates that Linux will have 6 percent of the desktop market in terms of units.About The Author Eugenia LoliEx-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 81 Comments 2004-08-05 4:51 am Still… I knew it would, and I knew it would very soon if it hadn’t already, so this is no suprise. 2004-08-05 5:03 am -installing software-hardware support-commerical appsBut regardless, Linux is kicking some serious ass. The progress on the desktop front over the past 3 years have been incredible!Keep up the great job guys! 2004-08-05 5:16 am If Linux can get to be about 10% with market share then I think things will get really interesting. At that point commercial vendors would be dumb to ignore it. The momentum starts…That is if it can get there… 2004-08-05 5:19 am Apple doesn’t really care– they’re making more money than ever.Microsoft on the other hand.. seems to care a little bit, hopefully the number will get up to 10% in a few years. Then we’ll get crushed by Longhorn I think 🙁 2004-08-05 5:20 am Is is not more accurate to say that Unix has X% of the desktop market considering GNOME, KDE and others run on a variety of Unix based OS’s 2004-08-05 5:27 am Stories like this and others (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) make me wonder how google gets its Zeitgeist statistics (http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.html).Google seems to underestimate gecko/linux usage compared to most other measures. 2004-08-05 5:32 am Is is not more accurate to say that Unix has X% of the desktop market considering GNOME, KDE and others run on a variety of Unix based OS’sLinux isn’t technically Unix…it’s Unix-like.Anyway, I would say the way its written in the article is the best way. Other flavors of Unix on the desktop are just a drop in the bucket really. Only Linux and Mac OS X really register on the desktop. 2004-08-05 5:44 am Linux surpasses OsX…not bad considering the many claims thatOsX is desktop ready and linux is not. Can you imagine when Linux is desktop ready? It would be 15 times bigger than OsX by then. 🙂 2004-08-05 5:53 am if Linus was only talking so much about his OS he would never got so “far” with it.HP is talking too much. 2004-08-05 6:12 am This article is a load of bull because it doesn’t state the evidence nor that it conducted any research.—[i]”This is the year that Linux overtakes the Mac on the desktop, and maybe my laptop will help accelerate that,” Fink said.Industry research firm IDC in Framingham, Mass., said it believes that this has already happened.—Until a research company creates actual research rather than conjecture… these articles are meaningless and only spread FUD. 2004-08-05 6:17 am The fact that he says that they “believe” this has already happened (rather than providing actual research is very telling considering the fact that they’re a research company”Ever piece of market stumulus says that Apples install base is growing. Here are just a few examples:Apple UK notebook sales growth ‘exceeds industry’http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=9330Apple gains in schools, corporations and the government sectorhttp://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2004/tc2004083_18…Apple #2 Choice Among People Likely To Buy Computers In Julyhttp://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/07/30.9.shtmlApple Computer upgraded to “outperform”http://www.newratings.com/analyst_news/article_438098.html 2004-08-05 6:24 am How many of the Windows machines get formatted and linux installed? 2004-08-05 6:33 am And, how many just dual-boot, but get counted as Windows desktop forever?My ancient P100 laptop would still be counted as a windows machine… but it surely has not run windows95 in a looong time (Debian 3.0rsomething with 2.2 kernel… works great, including suspension to disk). 2004-08-05 6:34 am No one is saying Apple is not growing, they’re saying that Linux is growing faster!Geez maybe you should read your own links 2004-08-05 6:41 am Microsoft on the other hand.. seems to care a little bit, hopefully the number will get up to 10% in a few years. Then we’ll get crushed by Longhorn I think 🙁Crushed by Longhorn? Are you joking? Linux’s 2.6 kernel is *widening* the gap over windows as far as performance and scalability is concerned, and that doesn’t look to be changing. Drivers, features, support, etc are also now at a level where the kernel is a viable option over windows.As far as applications go, Linux is closing the gap with windows.Longhorn. What is that going to be? Windows 2003 with IIS and SQL server built into the kernel? 2004-08-05 6:49 am … You really can’t compare the browser stats from W3CSchools with Google.com.Really, W3CSchools has a webdev-audience, most sane webdev-people run different browsers and there’s a big chance that those people run something else than msie as their main browser.Don’t get your hopes up by judging browser/OS statistics, especially not from technical sites 2004-08-05 7:01 am when all the statistics draw the same conclusions.Not that I don’t believe Linux is on more desktops than OSX, but there is a sufficient lack of evidence to prove this guess. 2004-08-05 7:03 am The price of apple hardware is, and always has, been outrageous. This limits their potential and confines them to a niche player…. steve jobs just doesn’t have the brass to take on microsoft, so he talks proudly but resigns himself to being a footnote. What’s apple’s market share, 2%? That’s as good as it’s going to get. In a few years there will be a hobby OS that will have greater market share than apple. Apple has more future selling ipods than macs. 2004-08-05 7:11 am “Apple has more future selling ipods than macs.”Agree. Apple is doing great with the Ipods, many people I know have gotten an ipod.-If Apple is *profit* driven- then they will go with the Ipods and drop the macs like they did with their Newton pdas. Companies are supposed to be profit driven, so if the trend continues, those Macs salesmen are going to turn into very hip i-pod salesmen.Linux has more users than Macs, and Ipods will eventually have more users than linux. Way to go Steve Jobs!BTW I like Pixar productions. 2004-08-05 7:23 am “-If Apple is *profit* driven- then they will go with the Ipods and drop the macs like they did with their Newton pdas. Companies are supposed to be profit driven, so if the trend continues, those Macs salesmen are going to turn into very hip i-pod salesmen. ”Oh please! Last quarter the iPods’ share of Apple’s revenue was 12.3% 2004-08-05 7:41 am For those that failed economic history in college. Commodity goods always win in the end. Linux is a historical inevitability. Even our friend McBride knows this and that’s why he and Microsoft wants to stick a $699 sticker price on every Linux install. It’s their only hope to kill it.So you can rant on and on about the desktop readiness of Linux, but the thing is that not only does it get better and better all the time, denying this is deceitful, but the truth of the matter is that good enough is good enough for most people.Ask yourselves how many people fly 1st class and how many people fly economy? How many people buy clothes at Old Navy and how many people get a Gucci suit? How many people own a Honda civic and how many people own a Ferrari?Considering that most of the Linux installations that I have ever seen used to have Windows on the hardware, Linux marketshare is possibly higher. 2004-08-05 7:49 am Ask yourselves how many people fly 1st class and how many people fly economy? How many people buy clothes at Old Navy and how many people get a Gucci suit? How many people own a Honda civic and how many people own a Ferrari?Considering that most of the Linux installations that I have ever seen used to have Windows on the hardware, Linux marketshare is possibly higher.This analogy is flawed, because as an operating system, MS Windows is both more expensive and not clearly superior (in many cases badly inferior) to Linux. 2004-08-05 7:56 am Quite the opposite. The analogy works in both directions, because Linux will gain markershare vs Apple simply because it is cheaper. Even if we were to concede that Apple may have a more cohesive desktop right now, although not necessarily a better desktop, because better is described as fitness for purpose and there simply isn’t one single purpose in a desktop operating system, price alone is an important determinant for many people and for many people Linux desktop today is good enough, particularly if it is pre-installed by the OEM.And clearly if your product is both more expensive AND inferior, then you have even less of a *legal* fighting chance. Microsoft’s will attempt to maintain its grip on the desktop through legislation and through monopoly leveraging. 2004-08-05 8:00 am I don’t know if Linux’s share is 1%, 3% or 10%, but the fact that 5 years ago we were not speaking about this already means something, don’t you think? 2004-08-05 8:20 am Linux could easily have a larger market share. But it’s probably all been taken away from Windows, not from the Mac. If you’ve gone to the time and expense of seeking out a G5 or a PowerBook, you’re unlikely to get rid of it and buy something from Dell. And vice-versa, admittedly.There’s nothing wrong with Linux getting bigger than the Mac; in fact, it’s virtually inevitable because Linux is a free OS and PCs are a lot cheaper. The Mac will continue basically unchanged, because it has the same audience it has always had (and which is actually growing, given OS X’s improving quality and the beauty of the hardware/software integration). It’s Windows that is put in trouble by this. 2004-08-05 8:26 am I couldn’t agree more. 2004-08-05 9:24 am Really, who cares? One percent more or one percent less won’t change much. Linux is expected to grow, no surprise here.Has it surpassed the Mac? It really doesn’t matter, each system as its own niche market, with some inroads into other markets. As for Linux marketshare, it’s pure speculation, no reliable figures.Better marketshare has never been a synonym of better product quality, so no reason to fight and troll about it. 2004-08-05 9:46 am It’s amazing how many people don’t (or refuse) to see this. At the moment, the realistic choices for desktop users who don’t want Windows are Linux and MacOS X. Don’t you think Apple wished it was just MacOS? They used to be the underdogs against Microsoft, now it’s not so clear anymore. Apple would really much rather have Linux stay on the server. 2004-08-05 9:55 am “How many of the Windows machines get formatted and linux installed?” Likely a lot less than the number of Linspire systems that get formatted to install XP. 2004-08-05 10:04 am Not in absolute numbers, I’m sure. I don’t know how many systems Linspire has sold to date, but it’ll be a tiny fraction of all systems sold.Just anecdotally: over the past ten years, I’ve converted fourteen Windows systems to Linux for my and my families use. I know I’m not exceptional; I have met (f2f, not over the net) quite a lot of people who have a similar history. 2004-08-05 10:29 am Very well said Linux and OSX have a common goal of surviving against MS. 2004-08-05 10:37 am Payed installs or all installs, dual boot or not, the US orthe World.Hard as ever, but does it really matter.Linux is growing, and that is no surprise.I suppose MS is the only company who knows “the facts”, so ifthey are worried, I am happy. 2004-08-05 10:44 am Oh Yeah Sure they say they don’t care but they do… Now we really see the more inferior or should i say more of low quality platform… hehe…————-0.0.2.1————Portho’s D’arghtagnian 2004-08-05 10:56 am Don how many computers do you own which shipped with Linux,but you installed XP? Thought so.There literally must be hundreds of thousands of former windows boxes now running Linux , yet not counted. 2004-08-05 11:40 am does it counted ‘corperate desktop’, like Sun workstation with JDS ?if it counted, no surprise at all. 2004-08-05 12:02 pm Are we talking market share or installed base? 2004-08-05 12:32 pm I’m not sure. Much less on the desktop than on the server. Apple’s servers are selling like hot cakes typically where Linux could have been, or has been, or is, a choice (different clusters, biology, geography, genetics, render farms…). OTOH, Linux desktops are sold in a niche where Apple is not expected (not that they don’t want): businesses desktops. As a desktop, Linux is not an alternative to OSX, Linux is an alternative to MS Windows, and chosen as such by corporations and some technical individuals.Undoubtedly, Linux will make inroads in Apple’s niches, like Apple is making inroads now in Linux’s niches. Will it ever be a problem? Not anytime soon. Linux has a serious handicap on the desktop: it is not perceived as ready. The day Linux will be really ready for the desktop is the day when nobody will discuss the subject anymore, when Joe User will go to shop a box knowing that it could well run Linux, and it won’t be a problem for him. For the moment, Linux doesn’t impose itself, it is imposed. 2004-08-05 12:42 pm is that OS X and Linux are very interoperable, and I think compliment each other nicely (at least they do at my house). the red headed step child of interoperability of course, is windows, which doesn’t know how to communicate with anyone but itself.in an ideal world, i’d like to see both OS X and Linux nudging out Windows on the desktop. thankfully, i think the next two years (possibly longer?) before longhorn will help that while people are wondering what to do with their stale XP installs. 2004-08-05 12:43 pm Imposed?Don’t know if this is the case with Linux.I mean,most of users have linux not because it was imposed to them,but because linux imposed as THE alternative to their needs.You can’t say the same about Windows.Now,this is imposed.Buy a machine in the store and see what choices do you have.I’ll help a bit : XP Home or XP professional.In my book windows is imposed where as linux impose itself. 2004-08-05 1:05 pm Linux and Mac OS X share a unix-like core and a lot of open-source applications. This is where Apple should be concentrating its development efforts for its OS.It should be a united front – a free wing and a proprietary wing of one army. 2004-08-05 1:07 pm I’m speaking about corporate desktops. Windows is not perceived as imposed, since it would be the users’ natural choice. Linux is imposed because most of them wouldn’t have chosen it (it’s not the natural choice). It doesn’t mean that they won’t like it, and maybe after that they’ll chose it over Windows. 2004-08-05 1:16 pm I think Apple is dead if they don’t give up the G5. Their PC sales are in the crapper.Yes the IPOD sells, but what happens when someone comes out with something that is sweet but cheap? Then where will Apples sales be?Not in the OS and for sure not in PC’s. EMachine was doing better then Apple before it got snatched up by Gateway.I think they should port the OS to X86, and sell it not directly against MS but as a choice with better security and less spyware problems etc. Still sell the Power PC G5 for high end users.Oh well, we will see what happens. 2004-08-05 1:21 pm “There literally must be hundreds of thousands of former windows boxes now running Linux , yet not counted.” Obviously you are correct. However it cuts both ways.I still have visions of the Fry’s Electronics grand opening I attended with the huge stack of inexpensive pc’s loaded with Turbo Linux (if memory serves), placed directly next to an equally large stack of XP Pro. Any clue what message they were attempting to send? In this case it was really clear as their own salespeople were straight up telling customers Fry’s didn’t offer help for the installed OS thru their own support desk. When considering how quickly Linux is gaining market share, puuleez consider just how damn many new systems are sold each day with Windows installed. For that matter just count the damn laptops, which are quickly becoming the largest portion of the market. Sure there are MORE installations of Linux on the planet every single minute, but you have more and more systems sold with Windows every second. 2004-08-05 2:01 pm I agree, but its akways silly:First they said:1) Linux is for servers only.2) Linux has no apps.3) Linux is not ready for the desktop4) People buy linux machines, and install windows.They keep finding dumber and dumber arguments to apologize for Microsoft. Stop supporting microsoft as a grassroot movement already! They are a multibillion dollar corporation, they dont need nor care about you.Last time i checked, nobody we’re excuseing for coca-cola when sales went up/down. Please. 2004-08-05 2:03 pm Gosh, I wish this conversation would end one day swiftly like a bullet to the head. I can’t believe we’re still talking about OSes in 2004!! The developer is everything to the success of a platform, not just the OS. Of course, the OS should be stable and it’s desktop shouldn’t suck but a user should forget it’s even there. Linux desktops still need work but they’re getting better but they’re certainly not better than Windows desktops due to the fact that we are still having this conversation and most of us have at one point owned a Windows machine. As bad as we know the OS was, we can’t deny it’s continually getting better as well, albeit at a slower rate and more expensively than linux. Bill Gates may not be smarter than Linus Torvalds but he is a better businessman and he has more money than all of us put together. He’ll buy a better OS just to say he’s still better than YOU. He’s hired numerous Linux programmers and MIT and Carnegie brains to say he’s still better than YOU. Funny thing is, he still own’s over 90% of market share and it shouldn’t matter whether he owns another 5 or 10% – but IT DOES TO HIM…that’s ruthless. People will continue to kick dirt on Lornhorn until it bites them in the arse in a few years.I don’t know, comparing OSes is like comparing gaming consoles. After the console comes out nobody cares whether it has a 1024-bit cpu, dvd-burner, mp3 player, graphics engine capable of drawing a bijillion polygons in kijillion colors on the screen. All that matters is how good the games are.When more apps are developed for Linux that attract more mainstream computer users (Joe Blow and his mother) then we can talk about comparisons. Until then it’s like 1990 all over again Turbo Graphx16 vs. Sega Genesis and SNES. Bonk’s Adventure rocked on Turbo Graphx….we just need more games like that. Ok, well Linux may not be Turbo Graphx16, but you get my point…. 2004-08-05 2:05 pm Why would you pay more for a pre -loaded linux box at Frys, Wal-Mart etc. for the purpose of installing Windows when these same retailers offer PC’s with no OS for less money. 2004-08-05 2:49 pm We not have more technical people using Linux than we have “artsy” people using OSX.We cannot use this information to make conclusions about “the rest” of the general population.Linux didn’t outgrow it’s technical user-base, the technical user base itself gained people.Will the technical user-base continue to grow? yesWill everyone eventually be “technical user base”? not hardly 2004-08-05 2:51 pm We now have more* 2004-08-05 2:59 pm why cant we just get along? osx is *nix, linux is *nix, we should be able to get along somehow, atleast with the backends. just look at the fact that apple released renderoze (sp? i prefer the zeroconf name) to the masses, should not be to hard to modify the existing zeroconf support in linux distros to play nice with the apple stuff.open standards are what will break new grounds for the pc market. just look at the growth of the web and the rest of the net, it all comes down the defined open standards. and the next person that states that standards is a bad things as i hampers innovation will get a virtual right hook from me! (i have gotten that comment ones when i told someone about a layout bug on a webforum as the only browser to render it fine was ie. and he boasted that he had a uni degree or something like that, silly rabbit)cellphones are allso standards based. sure, nokia (and to a lesser degree some of the others) have in the past put in proprietary (sp?) features in their phones but in the end the feature dies or becomes a open standard defined by the “community” at large, not one manufacturer. 2004-08-05 3:25 pm You must be kidding me. My mother, brother, roommate, girlfriend and grandmother (Plus myself) all use Linux. They all use linspire and I use Xandros.Most non techy users can use Linspire just fine. You give them the Linspire machine and show them how to log in and get on the web.The only big problems I see with Linux is software installation. (Which in Linspire is done with click and run which is filling up with tons of programs each day) and device support.Hardware support is no big deal for the non tech user because 99% of the time they will not be the one installing Linux.. If they use it ether like me some one will install it for them or they will buy it preloaded.Lack of applications will take care of it’s self..Linux is growing and will continue. As Microsoft locks down your machine more and more, Linux will be the OS to replace it. (By locked down I mean losing the ability to rip CD’s, burn MP3’s, rip DVD’s etc.) 2004-08-05 3:34 pm of course they are.they are a large coporation.they are not a fuzzy cuddly bunny like a lot of people like to think(i would normally make a crack about steve jobs, but i will show some respect due to his recent health issues) 2004-08-05 3:48 pm Agreed. I’ve been using Linux since ’99, but it’s first now that I can convert my non-techie friends to Linux thanx to Linspire. I’ve got 5 friends over so far! 2004-08-05 3:50 pm Apple did not invent rendevouz. It is their implementation of an open standard, so in effect, there isn’t much to release to the open community. They are releasing what was already open. 2004-08-05 4:05 pm Apple could give more, not necessarily in free code, but more like the multi-OS (win-mac) app. Quicktime and itunes, I have in mind. It will help apple sell there server product, help linux gaining ground, open standard getting stronger and all combine will benifits all of them.Are they allied for the same cause, or simply adversary? 2004-08-05 4:11 pm LOL kind of ironic isnt it?Apple thinks the Linux market is too small to sell music(itunes) or waste their time to port Quicktime….but theres more Linux users than there are Mac. LMAO 2004-08-05 4:14 pm Until Linux gets mainstream graphics app’s like Adobe Products, and Macromedia. I’ll will stick with Windows and Mac machines. Even if they did, they’d still be probably missing the app’s only found on mac’s specifically for motion graphics, music, and film.But I have heard that macromedia is interested in porting to Linux which is a step closer. 2004-08-05 4:33 pm “99% of the time they will not be the one installing Linux”I both challenge and dare you to prove that 99% the %2 or %3 of people using Linux today did not install it themselves.Linspire’s click and run does help, but the Microsoft tax dell pays for a new PC is probably about $35 and you can get 3 or 4 years out of it, a C&R membership is $50/year.And “I admin computers for 4 of my family members who I chose Linux for” does little to debunk my point that Linux is an OS for technical users.The examples to counter this exist, but are likely in the .0x % range.—Anyway,I myself am a Linux user, I was considering getting an Apple G5 for my next box but now that they are #3 and falling I might have to seriously reconsider.Anyway you slice it, this is very good news for Linux and very bad news for Apple. 2004-08-05 4:35 pm Im no fanboy, but lets really step back and look at this article, Apple’s OS’s are known for being ridiculously friendly to the village idiot, as are their apps, itunes has proven this on the pc side winning countless converts from other jukebox players.The iLife suite has been heralded for its ease of use for apps that are complex on any other platform and its sales reflect that (check latest financials). The same ease of use claims cant be made between linux and the village idiots. Now it is true that their desktop sales have dropped (imac sales, g5 due to proc shortage, etc), but the laptops have been flying off the shelves, check the latest financials in July, yes iPods grew to an astounding level, but laptops grew in the double digits also, as they did industry wide.With that said, how can linux displace apple as #2 desktop OS, when there are no mainstream productivity apps that the village idiots can buy off the shelf and use, plug and play digital device drivers, (video cameras, printers, etc.)? I mean its not like you can run into compusa and buy apps, games, etc for linux, they just arent there. How can the displacement be valid on the desktop when as i look through my numerous corporate CDW, PC Connection, CompUSA corporate et al., sales catalogs and see not more than 6 systems total between all of them that are completely linux based? And oh yeah, they are all server scale products.Another point to consider, while Gateway and other PC manufacturers are closing their retail presences, Apple is expanding theirs rather rapidly opening on average 2-3 new stores a month, sales from the stores are also making up a large number of total sales (check the financials), that said, if they are opening more stores, reaching more people, selling more macs through retail, catatlog and web, how are they displaced by something that has none of the aforementioned presence in the marketplace?p.s. if you have a chance sit outside any apple store for 1 hr and you’ll see at least 2 computer purchases take place, not to mention the constant flow of other purchases. Just something to think about. 2004-08-05 4:50 pm i run adobe photoshop under xandros/crossover office. and as far as macromedia goes: screw them and their worthless shitty software; i hope they die and so do millions of other people. hatred and contempt for shit like flash is visceral and total.but the point of native apps is an issue and daily there are more and more companies porting apps to linux. this really is a temporary concern, in a short time linux will have 10% market share – there’s probably already 10% install base – and companies that don’t port their software to linux will be the rare breed.once midi/pro audio apps get ported, like cubase, then everything else will already be there because the music industry is always last in cutting edge, absolute dead last. and i predict by the end of next year this will happen… there’s already rumors spreading and midi forums are filled with tons of requests. 2004-08-05 5:38 pm i’ve long kept a list of things that keep me out of windows 100%. the list is pretty much empty now, but with 5 computers at home, i do keep one machine up and running windows 2000 and vncserver.my wife is a digital artist and she’s been using photoshop 6/7 forever. windows started driving her crazy so i threw gimp 2.0 on her windows machine as a test run. she ran it for 3 weeks and realized she could run it fulltime. now she’s running mandrake and gimp 2.0 and scribus to do all her art and design work.she needs to trade commercial app files on occasion, but she can vnc into the windows box, do what she needs and get out.but that’s getting less and less .. i haven’t been in the windows box in forever, and my wife only goes in a couple of times a month, and probably doesn’t really need to. we back up some of our files to that machine and that’s about it.one of the other factors i’ve seen is that windows users have gotten really lazy over the years. throwing them onto linux often revives their “wow, computers are cool” attitude and they tend to be better computer users. with windows, you spend too much time wrestling with degradation and the need for all kinds of protective tools. forget one security update and you’ll get nailed. for now, linux is the oasis in the ocean. maybe not forever, but it’s ready. that’s been clear for a while. 2004-08-05 5:51 pm That’s kind of the point here. Adobe makes software for Mac, Linux’s marketshare is surpassing Mac’s, maybe Adobe will consider porting to Linux (but maybe not). 2004-08-05 5:52 pm “why cant we just get along? osx is *nix, linux is *nix, we should be able to get along somehow”lol, people using kde can hardly get along with people using gnome, forget about getting along with mac users!Yanik 2004-08-05 6:19 pm “I both challenge and dare you to prove that 99% the %2 or %3 of people using Linux today did not install it themselves.” The %3 or whatever of the people using Linux today are not joe blow users. (Duh) But if joe blow users are going to start using it or if a joe blow user is using it I can bet %100 of the time they did not do the install.“Linspire’s click and run does help, but the Microsoft tax dell pays for a new PC is probably about $35 and you can get 3 or 4 years out of it, a C&R membership is $50/year.”Ummmm, sorry but the click and run membership includes 3500 apps. And your $35 to Microsoft just includes Windows. What the membership covers is access to all those apps, discounts on apps like Star Office etc and all updates. For $50 a year that is not bad. Not when MS office costs at least $150 alone.And “I admin computers for 4 of my family members who I chose Linux for” does little to debunk my point that Linux is an OS for technical users. I did not say I ADMIN the computers. I said I set them up. The same as I did when they first got these same machines preloaded with Windows 2 or 3 years ago.The same machines that died from blaster and slammer. So I got lindows 4.0 (at the time) I set them up, showed them click and run, Mozilla, K3B to burn CD’s with and I let them go. I do not babysit them at all. (I can see you have never used Linspire)Linspire, Lycoris and Xandros are not very hard at all to user if it’s pre installed for the user. Same with Windows and for sure with the Mac OS. I don’t know any Joe Blow user who can install Windows, Mac OS X or Linux. Now if we look at each and put Linspire, Windows and Mac OS together side then put Joe Blow on them, they will tell you that they all seem about the same and that (I tried this with my brother) out of the 3 actually the Mac OS is the more confusing because Linspire looks and acts more like Windows.Not saying that Linspire or Linux is better then the Mac OS or Windows. But the only reason Windows and/or the Mac OS is better is because of age. Apple has been making computers for over 20 years and MS has been making software as long! Yet both companies are worried about Linux. Hummmmm. 2004-08-05 6:50 pm “The %3 or whatever of the people using Linux today are not joe blow users. (Duh) But if joe blow users are going to start using it or if a joe blow user is using it I can bet %100 of the time they did not do the install.”That is a very, very big assumption. The 3% we have so far seems if anything, to establish just the opposite as the precedent.The rest of your post basically goes on to compare Apples and Oranges. 2004-08-05 7:07 pm “Apple thinks the Linux market is too small to sell music(itunes) or waste their time to port Quicktime…. ”Though also Linux users have the whole free software thing going on. It’s probably not fair to generalize but I’d say Apple expects people that pay for their OS to be more willing to pay them in other areas. 2004-08-05 8:42 pm “estimates” is a key word.It doesn’t have exact numbers. I am not doubting that Linux has passed Mac…With out a doubt I am sure they have, but just because Linux is on a computer doesn’t mean its always used. There are very popular professional tools that are not available on Linux, yet are available on Windows, and Macs.For example There is Adobe Photoshop – Only available on Mac and Windows. Although there is GIMP its still not professional and basically lacks…Professionalism.This is a silly game. I mean if you really wanna estimate why not estimate using iPods.Apple would win. Its a very popular iteam. Linux looses, Microsoft looses. (Windows doesn’t even Compete, and the port of Linux to the iPod is all but dead.)Microsoft is not only a competitor in the Operating System business. They also provide Internet Access, Software, and sub-programming languages.Microsoft won’t ever die. They may stop making a specific thing but thats it.This is a world in which no one person will win.One person will always be ahead, one way, or another.Numbers doen’t say much to me. If the community is more concerned about getting Linux on computers, rather than simply making it a good OS (or kernel)…that doesn’t say much for them, it just makes them out to be a bunch of Bill Gates.The number games getting old. Listen to what people want, and stop worrying about whoes using it. If it does what you want, thats all that matters. 2004-08-05 8:59 pm I’m not surprised considering what there is available to consumers who make the switch to Linux. These are just a few points why Linux is ready for the desktop.1. Linux runs on both 32-bit and 64-bit systems.2. Linux is offered for both x86 and PPC platforms.3. Linux can run over 4000 Linux applications and even Windows applications thanks to developers of Wine (Wine Is Not Emulation). This includes both open source and commercial applications.4. Linux runs a wide variety of games thanks to developers of Cedega (formally WineX).5. Lower TCO compared to Microsoft and Apple environments.6. Companies like HP, IBM, Dell, etc will not only preinstall the Linux OS but also offer support services.7. A wide variety of multimedia codec support thanks to developers of MPlayer, Real Player 10 Gold, Helix Player Gold, Amarok, etc.8. Linux distributions such as Linspire and SuSE Linux offer ease of use to users even ones with little or no Linux training.9. Linux desktops can be configured to suit the work environment and end user. A user can if he/she so chooses to configure their desktop to look and feel identical to another OS such as OSX with Widgets.10. Freedom of choice. 2004-08-05 9:19 pm Did you just spam the board? I feel violated and dirty.Besides, the reasons for Linux not being “desktop ready” tend to focus more on what it can’t do and less on what it can.The topic is also a very dead horse.“10. Freedom of choice.”(1)1) As long is that choice is a GPL or GPL compatible OSS project. 2004-08-05 9:44 pm 1) As long is that choice is a GPL or GPL compatible OSS project.Funny, I could have sworn I had Neverwinter Nights, UT2K4, Photoshop and MS Office installed on my computer – none them being a GPL or GPL-compatible project…Oh, I get it, you were just trolling! Please carry on. 2004-08-05 10:11 pm “none them being a GPL or GPL-compatible project…”And all the examples you mentioned are windows-only application. Thank you for validating my point. 2004-08-05 11:18 pm Firstly, I’m an OS X fan, can’t get enough of it (just so you know where my bias lies 😉Throughout the 90’s I worked for a company that installed on Unix systems, Fujitsu’s, HP’s, RS6000’s, Dec’s and so forth, so I got a really good feel of how good Unix was, what it could do and totally loved it.Around the mid to late 90’s something occured to me. I belived then, and still do that one of the biggest mistakes MS made was choosing not to put it’s GUI on top of *nix, but to write their own variation.They would have a fast secure OS that could run MS applications, and made sure that these same applications would only run on a MS *nix. Kinda like how Cocoa apps run on OS X, but not on other *nix platforms, yet other *nix apps run nicely on OS X.If Windows was sitting on top of *nix, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.There would still be a Linux as such, but it would be just a nice underground movement for some.OS X might also exist, but it would have little chance of making any inroads, and would eventually die, like OS 9 was doing.Enterprise wouldn’t think twice about considering Linux or OS X for servers, and Linux wouldn’t touch the desktop market.Fact is they didn’t, and Linux will continue to gain more and more ground because of this.Longhorn won’t help MS too much at all, only delay what began back in 93 – 94 (just as XP is doing now).Enter OS X.If you look at what Apple is doing, you’ll notice something very interesting.1. They have a suit of software to cater for movies, DVD’s, music, photos and so on.2. The have written Core Image and Core Video which means their sights are on products such as Photoshop (probably a VideoShop – pictures and video), and enhancing Motion, Final Cut and so forth.3. Pretty much all the software that runs on Linux will run on OS X (via apples X11).4. Tiger’s Spotlight to take on WinFS.5. Keynote (a sign of things to come?)Which means that for the desktop, they only really need an Office suit and something like Quark, and their reliance on other companies is close to zero as far as users are concerned.You’ll also notice that they have turned their eyes towards enterprise in recent days with XServe, SAN, XGrid and so on.I think Apple is positioning themselves very nicely, I don’t think they intend to leave the market place anytime soon…I don’t think Apple is a threat to Linux (at least, not in the next 5 years or so), and I don’t think Linux is a threat to Apple either, I think the two complement each other.I think the only threat is Longhorn, and from what I’ve seen so far, I don’t think there is much threat there at all, as long as projects like Mono continue, and as long as OS X and Linux keep advancing… Linux and OS X have a much stronger foundation than Windows, and that will be the telling factor in the long term… 2004-08-05 11:37 pm And all the examples you mentioned are windows-only application. Thank you for validating my point.Lol, shows what you know. Neverwinter nights and unreal both run native. As do a lot of other cool games like Savage and Tribes 2. 2004-08-05 11:46 pm Not true. $35 to Microsoft includes Click-and-Download from http://www.download.com, http://www.tucows.com, just to name few. They have thousands of apps available, of the same type as majority in CnR: freeware and shareware.First of all, shareware != free. Second stuff on download.com or whatever seems to come loaded with spyware half the time. And then one thing that I personally dislike, most all of the stuff you’d find on download.com and whatnot is not opensource. http://www.sourceforge.net my friend, now there’s a sweet download site. =) 2004-08-06 12:06 am I guess I knew UT2K4 was Linux native, but that still does not change much. There is much more free OSS for Windows than closed commercial software for Linux.Linux has so far failed to attract a very successful closed software market.Sighting 2 or 3 examples (like zealots usually do) does little to counter this claim.“shareware != free.”Please elaborate on this claim that all windows software is Shareware, because I only have 1 or 2 shareware Applications on my windows partition.Also, for the sake of sanity, please don’t try to argue this based on available software for each platform.Maybe we should talk about how easy it is to install or Apache or something. Later you can bring up Gentoo’s stellar portage system for the win. 2004-08-06 12:38 am When did I ever say that comercial software was a giant success on open source platforms? To be sure it’s limited to very niche markets right now, like compilers for example. But anyway, I was just saying those apps are not just available for the Windows platform.And when did I ever say all software you get for Windows is shareware? I’m pointing out to the guy that shareware is not free. That and much of the stuff you’ll find on free download sites can come riddled with spyware. Not fun in my opinion.And sure, I’ll easily argue based on available software. I favor opensource software, so of course I’m going to favor a platform like Linux where open source software is more readily available. You yourself probably don’t care quite so much, and that’s your choice (or loss depending on how you look at it).Hehe, and man, you’re all over the place with that last one. But anyway:yum install httpdHow’s that for easy? Works for me… 2004-08-06 1:16 am “Why would you pay more for a pre -loaded linux box at Frys, Wal-Mart etc. for the purpose of installing Windows when these same retailers offer PC’s with no OS for less money.” Because someone decided it would be a great way “unload” a ton of obsolete hardware to the totally clueless. Sure the geeks build their own, buy barebones, or whatever, however the average user doesn’t have any idea how to do any of those things. To it’s credit many clueless users would do just fine with a pre-loaded Linux system(zandros comes to mind) When they get to the point of carrying home a MS Office file from work. Then it all the snizell hits the fan. Unless they were really geeky, or just happen to have a geek in the hall closet, they are largely hosed. 2004-08-06 2:32 am It depends what Adobe software you talk about as Acrobat is already available for Linux. =) 2004-08-06 3:36 am Acrobat Reader is available for Linux but who would want to use it? I think reader is bloated crap, Ghostview is a much cleaner product. 2004-08-06 6:03 am I read over and over again that everyone thinks that applications are lacking. where?I have, as well as many other converted lots of friends to linux. can you guess how happy they are _not_ to go to the store and buy software but to got to kde-apps.org and get what they want ?and I agree, it’s not mac that’s loosing on this, it’s windows. I still believe we are already far more linux users than the market claims. So what will happen now that media will start to spread the word of linux getting bigger than Mac ?this is what I think:game developers will make good games for linux.and there the story of microsoft monopoly will end.for good. maybe forever.(hey! why do _you_ think that ut-series is for linux? why neverwinternights is for linux? why savage is for linux? why vendetta-online will be for linux?these are big games from big companies, now why is that?) 2004-08-06 1:27 pm Re: “Because someone decided it would be a great way “unload” a ton of obsolete hardware to the totally clueless. Sure the geeks build their own, buy barebones, or whatever, however the average user doesn’t have any idea how to do any of those things.”Your basing this assumption on what? Is it because you believe that only small retail chains like Wal-Mart are selling Linux computers? I guess you are forgetting Dell that sells both Red Hat Linux and Linspire on their systems ( http://linuxinsider.com/story/34969.html ) or IBM and HP that sell Red Hat Linux and SuSE Linux. These distributions are sold not on just low cost solutions but also highend systems such as power user laptops, workstations and servers. IBM for example recently struck deals with the USA Navy and Military to build them supercomputers ( http://linuxinsider.com/story/35546.html and http://linuxinsider.com/story/35381.html ).Re: “To it’s credit many clueless users would do just fine with a pre-loaded Linux system(zandros comes to mind)”Even if a user was to install on his or her own system Linspire, Xandros or SuSE Linux they shouldn’t have to much difficulty. Not every distribution is identical so the Linux community should try to make non-Linux users aware of this so as to not listen to the ramblings of others saying all Linux distributions are difficult to install and use.Re: “When they get to the point of carrying home a MS Office file from work. Then it all the snizell hits the fan.”That’s real funny..lol. See I and many other Open Office users don’t experience issues exchanging documents with MS Office users. Most of the tools are identical to MS Office so it usely doesn’t take long for a user to get familiarized with Open Office which runs on Windows as well as Linux. If you run a business and don’t like Open Office which is free you can always choose Star Office which is still less costly than MS Office.Re: “Unless they were really geeky, or just happen to have a geek in the hall closet, they are largely hosed.”Okay Mr. Gates As I stated already this is one of the misconceptions spread by non-Linux users who are either afraid what Linux is offering consumers or really haven’t experienced Linux distributions themselves. Not all Linux distributions are the same. Most have friendly GUI tools and very detailed help to guide new users along. The documents included with SuSE Linux for example far exceeded the help found when I used Windows XP in the network.It’s amazing the number of Windows and OSX users that will make every attempt to bash “Linux” but not target a specific distribution. I’ve tested several distributions and in doing so realize even I was incorrect in some assumptions about the difficultly of “Linux”. Only to realize “Linux” is the kernel not the distribution and not every distributor uses the default kernel. Some like the developers of SuSE Linux tweak kernels to suit their distribution and the market they are selling to. Some include their own unique software tools to better enhance the user experience.I’ve gone from Irix, OSX, Windows and several Linux distributions to know I have an idea of what I’m talking about. At 33 years of age I have a lot of experience with computers both in the home and at work. When some users make idiotic comments that they can’t get an alternative solution or Linux port for their software I believe most are feeding people lies. If some choose to call Linux users converts fine because we realize their is an inane right to have freedom of choice. Having Windows forced on consumers over the years due to MS monopoly tactics with distributors should make people feel happy instead of feeling afraid or upset to change. Knowing there is an alternative which is less costly no matter what MS tries to feed them with their lies is actually a good thing. Myself and many others will continue to try and educate the nonbelievers on what Linux is and what is can do for them whether it’s for a home or business. 2004-08-06 1:36 pm Edit: Last paragraph the words “an inane” were incorrectly added. Please ignore. Thanks.