With its eyes firmly set on the living room, Microsoft plans to release next month a new incarnation of Windows XP Media Center Edition, an entertainment-oriented version of Windows XP.
With new OS, Microsoft seeks couch potatoes’ eyes
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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http://freevo.sourceforge.net/
http://www.mythtv.org/
Even if I was a Windows user, I would at least want my TV, DVD Player, internet appliance and stereo to be free from security flaws and bugs. It’s great to watch an episode of Futurama without having your TV crash on you.
Besides, the audio of Windows XP Media Center Edition is said to be crap.
Freevo and MythTV are even more buggy than Windows. I know, I have tried them (and then I gave up and bought TiVo). WindowsMediaCenter is based on XP, which is very solid.
Freevo and MythTV are even more buggy than Windows.
I have to admit that I haven’t tried them myself as I mainly use Totem, but on the Gentoo forums there are always some people who are very happy with it.
WindowsMediaCenter is based on XP, which is very solid.
Yes, as long as you don’t connect to the internet.
“WindowsMediaCenter is based on XP, which is very solid.
Yes, as long as you don’t connect to the internet.”
As much as I support Linux and dislike Microsoft, I am sometimes amazed how ignorant zealots are.. You want a secure Windows box? Install all the updates (SP2 too, unless you run AutoCAD or some other incompatible application), get the free antivirus from http://www.free-av.com, free firewall from http://www.kerio.com, free AdAware from http://www.lavasoftusa.com, use Firefox and there’s no way, NO WAY you can have security problems (assuming you check for antivirus and windows updates twice a week, which doesn’t take more than 2 minutes on a reasonable internet connection).
I use both Linux and Windows, and I didn’t have a security problem on my Windows box in 2 years, nor crashes or other weird behaviour (except viruses hidden in zip files from filesharing clients, which my antivirus detected and took care of automatically). And I recon sometimes I am subjective too (well, Microsoft deserves it), but the viruses and security problem affect only people who don’t have the basic knowledge about computers and OSes.
Let the flames begin…
but if you do a quick search for reviews of mce, most reviewers all around give it the best marks for what it is and does.
anantech.com has been running a long series of reviews of pvr type machines over the last frew months and they just did another today:
http://www.anandtech.com/linux/showdoc.aspx?i=2208
from the conclusion:
“As far as setup and configuration goes, MCE 2004 won this round. To be able to work with anything on Linux, especially a package like MythTV, one needs to know the ins and outs of the OS, which could become a hassle if you have incompatible hardware or buggy software/drivers. Since MCE 2004 is proprietary, there are only so many hardware configurations to deal with and all are supported if they are certified to run on the OS”
and
“MCE 2004 requires hardware certified by Microsoft to run successfully. This means that there is a very short, yet slowly growing, list of hardware which the package supports. One piece of hardware is the TV tuner card; MCE requires a hardware-based capture card, like the PVR-250MCE; otherwise, TV functionality will be disabled.”
and
“Our analysis has proved that though Media Center Edition 2004 is a boxed package that is easy to set up and configure, it looks amazingly beautiful, has great features such as On-Demand content, and is fully supported by Microsoft. However, for the enthusiast, MythTV takes the gold for its greater support for a variety of hardware and software codecs.”
so myth tv takes gold for the enthusiast building their own. since up until just now you could not even do that with mce, that is not surprising. but mce has the benefits and detractions of being very easy to use and setup and just works, but does have a higher price tag.
ms is releasing mce 2005 on october 12 at an event in LA. they are also just now releasing mce to the oem channel and that will force hardware choices up and prices down.
mce is a solid product that has gotten better with each release (updates have been free to this point) and has been on the market for some time serving people pretty well.
independent reviewers likewise seem to think it a damn solid product.
I know that you can theoretically secure a Windows machine and I don’t are as I have none. But those who want to experience difficulties:
1. Even many power users don’t know about the existence of a built-in firewall, which is turned off by default (which is wrong, nevermind, basically the whole OS should be secure as it is delivered).
2. So, they already catch the first 20 worms when trying to download security updates, and they will never finish it because
3. Microsoft requires them to fill out some stupid info on Windows Update, wasting worthful seconds before the system shuts down again because of that RPC something exploit.
You only have to connect to the internet, not even open IE to get this thingie (I guess it’s a feature, not a bug).
If you happen to install a good firewall, AV and browser without yet being infected, then you’re safe for quite some time. But few people manage to get so far, be happy to be among them.
The problem is that such problems are unknown to users of decent OSs, and one should never have to worry about such things. But then there are people who blame the users for MICROS~1’s inability to create an OS with an average security level.
Anyway, this is getting waaaaay too OT, we should comment on the flaws and bugs of Windows Media Center, not its networking features.
I know that you can theoretically secure a Windows machine and I don’t are as I have none.
I indended to write that I don’t care. Sorry.
Window’s MCE is just a 40-50mb application on top of XP with some specific registry settings to keep it that way. It has very tight restrictions on the hardware it will operate with (windows remote control, “approved” tuners, etc) and the number of tuners it can use at once (iirc one or two?).
I’m just commenting on using freevo/mythtv as media centers.
I’ve been using freevo for months on archlinux (www.archlinux.org) now, without a tv tuner, as a media center. It uses lirc, mplayer/xine, and a few other common utilities. It can automatically connect to imdb and cddb to download playlists and media information including album/movie images. It is extremely fast visually in X11 (haven’t used it with directfb yet) because of pygame/sdl. I was unable to get mythtv to compile b/c of gcc 3.4 issues so far.. they said there are fixes being added to cvs.
I haven’t had a single crash. lirc (linux infrared remote control) is used for all common media apps under Linux, mplayer, xine, freevo, mythtv, etc. It can work with a lot of remote controls. I’m using it with my Xcard remote.. which I was stupid enough to buy without realizing it has no support for Linux. When I ran Windows I’d use joveplayer (now called tvedia) at 8dim.com – it works like MCE and can be used without a Xcard.
Anyway, the cool thing about freevo/mythtv is that you can use as many tv tuners as you want. You can record several channels while watching one. You also have webserver interfaces. There is a HDTV tuner (terrestrial, not cable) available only for Linux using GPL drivers at pchdtv.com.
I haven’t used mythtv but it took me roughly a half hour to install and setup freevo. Freevo is written in python so you can somewhat easily modify its source to fit your needs. I have used tv tuners in Linux before, but it was a shitty bttv card. That was before mythtv/freevo were around even. So in all I’d have to really say I enjoy media centers like freevo under Linux. They aren’t tied to any specific desktop environment like GNOME/KDE (thankfully) and they seem to be very fast.
updates are important, but one little thing most windows users never take in to account is, they all run their computers with adminstrator privledges all the time, and if the user sitting in front of the computer can install software and make system wide changes without first entering a root password then a malacious website, virus, worm, malacious script can also make system wide changes too and it does not matter if it is updated, and had a firewall and antivirus, it will still get trashed…
I don’t think it is fair to compare do-it-yourself install/setup of say freevo or mythtv. You don’t do-it-yourself with MCE as MCE assumes it is being sold on MCE hardware packaged by authorized distributors. Why assume someone would do-it-themselves with freevo or mythtv? Pay a company or friend to install and set it up for you if you have to. An experienced person setting them up should be able to build a rock solid experience for you with whatever number of tuners/capabilities you want.
I think they shouldn’t compare MCE (a software/hardware combo) with freevo/mythtv (software) as nobody is even suppose to ‘install’ MCE on their own. It would be more fair to compare MCE with Tivo or another company who sells Linux based devices dedicated to media center functionality.
“1. Even many power users don’t know about the existence of a built-in firewall, which is turned off by default (which is wrong, nevermind, basically the whole OS should be secure as it is delivered).”
mistake, windows xp now ships with firewall on by default. see service pack 2. mac os x for instance at first likewise contained a firwall that was off by default. mac users paid to get a newer version that turned the firewall on. both mac os and windows didnt have firwalls at all previous to x and xp.
“3. Microsoft requires them to fill out some stupid info on Windows Update, wasting worthful seconds before the system shuts down again because of that RPC something exploit.”
utter hogwash, there is nothing to be filled out at windows update site. you can connect, download any updates to the windows update software itself and then begin dowloading other updates.
“But few people manage to get so far, be happy to be among them.”
actually you have it backwards, millions do just fine and the smaller percentage dont know what to do or how to do it and have problems. if you work with windows pcs for a living you would know the reality. yes plenty get hit, but the large majority are running along very pleasantly with xp , ms most solid os release ever.
“But then there are people who blame the users for MICROS~1’s inability to create an OS with an average security level.”
do you blame apple for not including a firewall (or turned on firewall[’00-’02])from 1984 to 2002 in the mac os?
I have been trying to find the compatible components to build a MythTV PC with a huge harddrive. The video card requirements are extremely strict and limited cards are available.
Once this project has MUCH MORE video board support than is currently available it would easily surpass Tivo, etc. It’s so promising!!!
“I know that you can theoretically secure a Windows machine and I don’t are as I have none.”
Well if you don’t have a Windows machine, what do you actually know about them?
I started using computers in 1979 with s Radio Shack Model 1. I used Tandy machines until around 1986. Then I started using PC’s. I used Desqview for multitasking DOS apps until around 1993 when I switched to Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. I have used Windows as my primary OS ever since.
I have been ‘online’ ever since I cruised BBS’s with my 300 baud modem used with my Tandy Model 4. I used to use gopher, FTP, Jughead, Archie and WAIS etc on a terminal based internet connection through Delphi. Heck I had the same email address for over ten years, until just this year.
I have never had a virus infection. I have never had a RAT on my PC. I have had ad-ware but that is easily remedied. Ever wonder why ad-ware is so prevelant on Windows based PC’s? If you wanted to advertise and it was free where would you advertise at the Super Bowl or Jimmy Smiths little league game.
The whole thing is that alot of the people here bashing Windows have little or no experince with PC’s or Windows. Thier major reason for hating Windows is Microsft. Thier major reason for hating Mircosoft is Bill Gates, who happens to be rich and a citizen of the US.
I don’t believe that you have had a well configured MythTV. I have a system in my livingroom that runs 24/7 and I don’t have any problems with it. It has been up for months except for when we get a nasty thunderstorm.
I used Debian as a base though. Many people build using the readily available Fedora Core RPM’s, which IMHO is the most unstable Linux out there. Your base OS makes a huge difference.
I’m not saying that WMC is unstable, just that MythTV isn’t.
“The whole thing is that alot of the people here bashing Windows have little or no experince with PC’s or Windows.”
The whole thing is that nobody needs a lot of experience with Windows to find out how bash-prone it is, as together with Windows “ease-of-use” come the problems flying towards you…perhaps now also spoiling the couch potatoe’s livingroom atmosphere.
The ones with little or no experience with PC’s couldn’t care less…
that has to be the most redicules argument i have ever heard. “Because apple didnt do it, its ok.” i mean, im not trying to defend that guy as it looks like a troll, but apple not having a firewall in 1984 has absolutely nothing to do with anything. are there billions of dollars in losses to companys who use apple products because of worms exploiting unpatched security holes?
The problem is that such (security) problems are unknown to users of decent OSs, and one should never have to worry about such things.
Nah, if I was using a ‘decent’ OS, I’d have plenty more to worry about, like why the hell the OS won’t boot when I hook up a USB mp3 player (kthx Fedora).
if the user sitting in front of the computer can install software and make system wide changes without first entering a root password …
Right, so then the only thing seperating a user from utter chaos is a root password. So, let me ask you this .. if all these inexperienced users on Windows are double clicking on anything that promises them nude pics of J-Lo, what makes you think they wouldn’t also enter a root password for the same reason? When it comes to security in Windows, I hear arguments all the time about “Well, people don’t know about that or how to do that!” but when they switch to Linux, suddenly they’re supposed to be security experts who know better than to enter a root password every time they’re prompted.
then a malacious website, virus, worm, malacious script can also make system wide changes too and it does not matter if it is updated, and had a firewall and antivirus, it will still get trashed…
First of all, a firewall will prevent worms from coming in. As far as viruses, that’s what anti-virus is for
no sorry, if you have any understanding of an idea like gross negligence, you would see that ms efforts at security actually fit right in with industry norms.
the two major desktop oses (mac and windows) ran side by side for many years with no firewalls.
mac os x shipped in late 2000 with apples first firewall installed but off by default.
the default os from apple was os 9 until early 2002 and it did not include a firewall at all.
apple had its os x firewall turned on by default with os 10.2 jaguar if i remember correctly in 2002.
ms shipped windows xp in late 2001 with its first desktop os firewall included. it was off by default.
ms is now shipping windows xp svc pk 2 in late 2004 with a firewall turned on by default.
the pattern is there, there is no gross negligence on ms part. they made a decision that was mirrored by their competition.
ms like others decided in the end that user ease was more important than security. with hindsight it is easy to argue that it was a bad decision.
then again it can be argued that it was a fine decision as well.
fact is that today now that svc pack 2 is being rolled out on new machines and will slowly be added to about 250 million windows xp machines already installed worldwide and what do we see? most breakage and compatability issues and networking problems all relate to the firewall. apps are not fundamentally broken, the firewall just prohibits its unfettered operation in nearly all cases.
firewalls take training to master, they take some effort to configure properly, etc.
so with hindsight we can just as easily say ms made the right decision about leaving firewall usage up to the end user. i run a business, i have home computers, i assist other businesses with their technology issues and not a single one that pays attention to their technology needs and takes an interest in being proactive has any security issues at all.
funny thing is ms gets ripped for not turning the firewall on yet no one talks about others doing the same thing. now ms turns the firewall on and they get ripped for “breaking” software when a tiny percentage are actually breaking but in actuality require nothing more than firewall and network tweaking.
250 million windows xp buyers sure seem to think the system as it was put in place in 2001 works just fine. the end user can either have ease of use and have security vulnerabilities or they can choose to enable a free firewall, download other free firewalls that are better, or pay for even better solutions.
the evidence of ms correct decision is the huge number of users requesting the ability to block the implementation of the firewall in svc pk 2 until a later date. ms has obliged with a simple download that enables you to run a tiny app that alters the registry so that it cannot be installed until you either rerun the application to enable it or that setting will automatically expire in mid 2005.
bottom line is ms security and firewall issues are not a one sided arguement. you can argue with just as valid points for either side.
the other bottom line is that despite ms huge installed base, being the most attacked platform made (on the desktop….linux now gets that honor for number of web servers attacked),and despite what i (and many others) would call serious problems with security, i have no problems in the security realm because of a few simple steps i take the responsibility of taking. millions and millions of others do the same and have no problems.
securty hysteria thrown about by nimwits is nothing more than hysteria. hysteria is a psychological disorder, so the folks that do it need to check themselves.
I’m surpriced noone mentioned VDR. It is the most advanced and feature complete digital tv system there is for dvb, the eurpean digital broadcasting standard.
VDR has previous been only for full feature DVB cards which has their own mpeg2 decoder onboard, but lately there’s been a lot of development on plugins for displaying on X11 with Xv, DirectFB or using vidix.
I have tried both MythTV and WinMCE, but VDR is the only application that comes close to the usability of tivo.
regardless, apple doesnt have a monopoly on the operating system market. apple doesnt even target businesses with their products (other then xserve, which is relatively recent). that means apple is completely irrelivent to this discussion, the amount of losses to windows users because of malware is not even comparable to mac users. this makes it a major problem, and one that should have been tackled a very long time ago. ask an apple user how long they can have an unprotected system exposed to the net, then ask the same to a windows user. one will look at you funny, the other will say about fifteen minutes if your lucky. this means that this is a major problem for windows, not so much for mac.
does quicktime have vulnerabilities? will browsing the web with safari infest your pc with spyware?
“regardless, apple doesnt have a monopoly on the operating system market.”
nor does anyone else.
last time i checked an end user can choose windows, mac, dozens of flavors of unix, hundreds of flavors of linux, and various other options. a real monopoly is when you have one phone line running into your home or biz and it is owned by the one company that can sell you phone service.
your modern liberal notions of “monopoly” show more hysteria and yet again show how user choice and responsibility are some home magically removed because those same users have overwhelmingly CHOSEN the os that runs their computer systems.
i wonder how you got around the monopoly and bought mac os?
because a free and open market let its consumers choose an os and that os is now dominant does not make for a monopoly.
“apple doesnt even target businesses with their products (other then xserve, which is relatively recent).”
first what does that have to do with a discussion here about mce and its security. two, that is patently false. macs have been used in biz since the day they were made. last time i checked, dtp is a biz or a part of a larger biz even. apple has always targeted the biz segment, they just do a poor job at it. two entirely different ways of looking at it.
“the amount of losses to windows users because of malware is not even comparable to mac users.”
yeah and same can be said for apples 20 million installed users and ms 600 million installed users. or compare size of the biz, or the profits they make, or the size of biz that runs the competing software, etc etc etc.
“ask an apple user how long they can have an unprotected system exposed to the net, then ask the same to a windows user.”
thats the whole point isnt it. no one should connect any unprotected machine to an untrusted source such as the internet. do you believe in santa claus, want government to hold you hand from cradle to grave and always take care of you, and now it appears you likewise want no responsibility for your own computers. its all the computer makers fault!
“does quicktime have vulnerabilities? will browsing the web with safari infest your pc with spyware?”
the answer to that is a firm yes. apple releases security updates for its oses on a nearly monthly basis. it too has flaws and exposes its users to security risks that must be fixed.
“regardless, apple doesnt have a monopoly on the operating system market.”
>nor does anyone else.
>last time i checked an end user can choose windows, mac, >dozens of flavors of unix, hundreds of flavors of linux, >and various other options. a real monopoly is when you have >one phone line running into your home or biz and it is >owned by the one company that can sell you phone service.
95% of the market belongs to microsoft, according to american law they are a monopoly.
>your modern liberal notions of “monopoly” show more >hysteria and yet again show how user choice and >responsibility are some home magically removed because >those same users have overwhelmingly CHOSEN the os that >runs their computer systems.
first off, i am not liberal. secondly, im not hysterical. thirdly, how many users actually went out and bought windows? most that i know had it preinstalled on their computer.
>i wonder how you got around the monopoly and bought mac os?
the only apple product i own is an ipod.
>because a free and open market let its consumers choose an >os and that os is now dominant does not make for a >monopoly.
in a capitalist society, competition breeds innovation. monopoly breeds stagnation. microsoft has had no competition in years, and it shows in their products. look at longhorn, 5 years to make and almost everything that will be in it already exists in other “inferior” products.
“apple doesnt even target businesses with their products (other then xserve, which is relatively recent).”
>first what does that have to do with a discussion here >about mce and its security. two, that is patently false. >macs have been used in biz since the day they were made. >last time i checked, dtp is a biz or a part of a larger biz >even. apple has always targeted the biz segment, they just >do a poor job at it. two entirely different ways of looking >at it.
it has to do with security, the more professional the environment is, the more important security is. windows is marketed to businesses first, and home users second. i have yet to see a non xserve ad targetted at businesses from apple. apples market is the home user, which means that less focus on security, while not a good thing, is understandable. name me a fortune 500 company that uses apple outside the server room.
“the amount of losses to windows users because of malware is not even comparable to mac users.”
>yeah and same can be said for apples 20 million installed >users and ms 600 million installed users. or compare size >of the biz, or the profits they make, or the size of biz >that runs the competing software, etc etc etc.
im talking about the dollar value that every windows worm costs the enterprise accross the globe. that isnt comparable even on the relative scale to apple. and if you say that its irrelivent to the conversation again, i would like to point out that is what i was saying from post one.
“ask an apple user how long they can have an unprotected system exposed to the net, then ask the same to a windows user.”
>thats the whole point isnt it. no one should connect any >unprotected machine to an untrusted source such as the >internet. do you believe in santa claus, want government to >hold you hand from cradle to grave and always take care of >you, and now it appears you likewise want no responsibility >for your own computers. its all the computer makers fault!
ok, so aunt tillie buys her brand new dell. plugs it in, remember her grandson told her its really important to download all the updates, but before she is able to finish downloading and installing them all, she has been infected by several varients of blaster, or sasser, or whatever the winworm of the week is.
i agree that you cant complain after say, a week of running an unpatched os. but the average time is about 15 minutes, which is truly redicules. there are two reasons for this. one, windows machines have more exploits then anyone else, and two, more people run windows machines then anything else. add those two together, and you end up with the internet being an extremely hostile environment for windows users.
“does quicktime have vulnerabilities? will browsing the web with safari infest your pc with spyware?”
>the answer to that is a firm yes. apple releases security >updates for its oses on a nearly monthly basis. it too has >flaws and exposes its users to security risks that must be >fixed.
really? using safari will inevitably result in spyware and trojans on your pc?
i am far from being a zealot, least of all for apple. but as i said numerous times, you cant compare the business strategy or feature list of mac to windows, they are far too different.
I love how every message board on OSNews always turns into a Microsoft sucks, Linux rules thread, no matter what the story is about. Here you have a story about Microsoft XP Media Center Edition; what’s the first message, a OSS guy pushing Linux PVR’s and bad mouthing Windows XP; so basically nothing to do with the story. Then the thread goes on from there talking about viruses, monopolies, uptimes, etc. View any other thread for another story and it typically is the same. A story about SkyOS, what’s the first post? why bother with SkyOS, Linux is the only thing you need. It’s rare to find a thread these days that pertains to the actual article; people sharing their thoughts on it; nowadays it’s just Linux salesmen pushing their wares.
“First of all, a firewall will prevent worms from coming in. As far as viruses, that’s what anti-virus is for
”
So does this mean that you never download security patches from Microsoft? Between the firewall and your anti virus, you have no need for the patches?
not just linux users posting in windows threads. the windows guys post in linux threads, kde guys post in gnome threads, gnome guys post in kde threads. if theres any way humanly possible, osnewsers will turn it into a flame war.
in a thread about mce we need not just sing praises, clap our hands, and shout out for joy.
it is perfectly reasonable that within a thread comparisons are made.
mce doesnt exist as a vacuum, consumers will evaluate the options and make a choice.
mce doesnt have a monopoly and when in any thread there is no monopoly that forces to remain precisely on topic discussing nothing but that specific thread subject.
despite what matt would have you believe.
“your modern liberal notions of “monopoly” show more hysteria and yet again show how user choice and responsibility are some home magically removed because those same users have overwhelmingly CHOSEN the os that runs their computer systems.”
Only someone who either owns MS stock or works there would cling to this notion. When they go to the store, they just want to buy a computer. 99% (if not a 100) run Windows, so they buy Windows. Yes, a choice was made, but then again, there never really was much choice so far as they knew. Real people (not geeks) have better things to do than comparing specs for operating systems, which is fortunate for MS otherwise they would have no 90+% marketshare. It is simpler just to buy what’s there, take it home, go online, get the Sasser worm or coolwebsearch and then hope you know somebody who can straighten it out. A company with this much money and this much manpower has no excuses.
And by the way, for those who missed it, a Federal judge officially declared MS a monopoly in the operating system market. For those who don’t know, as a Federal judge he gets to do that. And your taxes pay his salary. Deal.
“95% of the market belongs to microsoft, according to american law they are a monopoly.”
“In economics, a monopoly (from the Greek monos, one + polein, to sell) is defined as a market situation where there is only one provider of a product or service. Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide (and a lack of viable substitute goods), as well as high barriers to entry for potential competitors on the market.”
no they are a monopoly under american law as interpreted by liberals. jurisprudence is not some law of nature or physics. its highly political and just as many people will tell you they are not a monopoly based on their political leanings.
“how many users actually went out and bought windows? most that i know had it preinstalled on their computer.”
lord your logic is weak. if the consumer chooses a computer, they chose the maker, the retailer, the software thats on it, they chose everything about it. if they chose not to put much thought or effort into it that is still their choice. or would you have government agents helping us buy our consumer goods as well?
“in a capitalist society, competition breeds innovation. monopoly breeds stagnation. microsoft has had no competition in years, and it shows in their products. look at longhorn, 5 years to make and almost everything that will be in it already exists in other “inferior” products.”
in one fell swoop you just informed us that apple doesnt make software, nor sun, nor hp, nor redhat, nor novell, nor ibm, nor hundreds of others. they are not a choice. they are not competition. amazing. and completely wrong.
os x was in development for over a decade. apple had it for 6 yrs before they made it their default os. try another arguement.
“i have yet to see a non xserve ad targetted at businesses from apple. apples market is the home user, which means that less focus on security, while not a good thing, is understandable.”
so you started following apple ads 1 yr ago? apple has macs for 20 years and they have targeted biz sales all along. dont be absurd.
“name me a fortune 500 company that uses apple outside the server room.”
ms is a fortune 500 company and they have a whole division that builds softwar for macs. they probably own thousands of macs. might well have more than any biz in the world as a matter of fact. wouldnt surprise me at least. many of us saw photos a yr or so ago of a truck being unloaded at ms filled with g5 towers.
secondly, it would not surprise me one bit if every single biz in the fortune 500 had macs in the enterprise. not many, but at least some.
“ok, so aunt tillie buys her brand new dell. plugs it in, remember her grandson told her its really important to download all the updates, but before she is able to finish downloading and installing them all, she has been infected by several varients of blaster, or sasser, or whatever the winworm of the week is.”
if aunt tilly buys a dell today it has service pack 2 on it. if aunt tilly doesnt know what she is doing shes to get help from someone that can assist her.
“using safari will inevitably result in spyware and trojans on your pc?”
on your mac yes, ms makes browsers for macs and pcs. apple only makes their browser for macs. they make few apps for other platforms.
does any software on your mac call home to the maker without your permission? yes. does any software on your mac report your habits and usage patterns? yes. does safari stop it? no. does the os x firewall stop it? no. are there rootkits for os x? yes. are there keyloggers for os x? yes. does os x have remote vulnerabilities? yes. does os have local user vulnerabilities? yes (i love the one from a while back where if you just typed in a long password enough times you got in ).
spyware exists on macs. tools to deal with it however are fewer and in many cases not free. free options on windows are abundant and do the job of protecting you very well indeed. does ms do it all themselves? no. but i as a user have control of my system and can secure my machine to my hearts content.
“Only someone who either owns MS stock or works there would cling to this notion. When they go to the store, they just want to buy a computer. 99% (if not a 100) run Windows, so they buy Windows. Yes, a choice was made, but then again, there never really was much choice so far as they knew. Real people (not geeks) have better things to do than comparing specs for operating systems, which is fortunate for MS otherwise they would have no 90+% marketshare. It is simpler just to buy what’s there, take it home, go online, get the Sasser worm or coolwebsearch and then hope you know somebody who can straighten it out. A company with this much money and this much manpower has no excuses.
And by the way, for those who missed it, a Federal judge officially declared MS a monopoly in the operating system market. For those who don’t know, as a Federal judge he gets to do that. And your taxes pay his salary. Deal.”
what you say is perfect. it boils down to this:
you think users and consumers are ignorant (not all of us buy computers at walmart of course)…in fact millions are bought by highly trained computer experts to run very large businesses and the same govt that sued ms while a liberal president was in power. so your idea that consumers are ignorant and have to be protected from themselves by government controls is kinda flaky when the CIO’s of Motorola and IBM (two large apple partners) chose to run their businesses primarily on windows technology. even apple themselves and many of their subsidiaries buy and run windows based computers. up until the release of os x, apple ran their servers on sun hardware and oses…..damn them choices.
“Only someone who either owns MS stock or works there would cling to this notion.”
actually only a poorly informed or immature person would believe and write such a thing. 10’s of millions of americans do not believe ms is a monopoly. and they are not all employees and stockholders.
“And by the way, for those who missed it, a Federal judge officially declared MS a monopoly in the operating system market. For those who don’t know, as a Federal judge he gets to do that. And your taxes pay his salary.”
a federal judge is now what everyone believes? what every federal judge believes? what every member of congress believes? what both major political parties believe? what all of our recent presidents believe?
in actuality, it was cheaper for ms to agree to some simple terms and let it rest and move on than to keep fighting all the bloodsucking leaches that are out there. many legal experts believe that all that crap would have been tossed on appeal.
a single judge does not make the world go round and does not get to write into the laws of nature what is truth.
“no they are a monopoly under american law as interpreted by liberals. jurisprudence is not some law of nature or physics. its highly political and just as many people will tell you they are not a monopoly based on their political leanings”
how is more then 9 out of ten computers out there having windows installed on it not a monopoly? sure, there exist other choices, but they are for special situations. Someone who buys a mac is buying into high end hardware, and an os specifically designed for home use. If your going to tell me desktop solaris is a viable alternative for most of the population, i want some of what your smoking 😉 there are currently two viable alternatives, mac and linux, and both target niche markets. microsoft may not have a monopoly in the strictest sense of the word, but it definately does in every practical way.
“lord your logic is weak. if the consumer chooses a computer, they chose the maker, the retailer, the software thats on it, they chose everything about it. if they chose not to put much thought or effort into it that is still their choice. or would you have government agents helping us buy our consumer goods as well? ”
mac boxes arnt sold at most computer stores. linux is RARELY OEMd on intel based computers. that means that the average person who has barely an idea of what an operating system is, will walk into a store and tell the sales clerk he wants something different? if you want a mac, you go to a mac store. if you want linux, your a geek. about 2 people in a hundred fit into one of those two categories. this makes a self sustaining monopoly, if its a windows world, why buy a mac and deal with the extra hassle?
governament agents dont need to regulate consumer purchases, they need to do a better job of monitoring anti-competitive business practices by large corporations. the current conditions make it extremely hard to break into the os market. look at beos for a prime example of technology that by all rights should have caught on, but didnt because of the inertia of microsoft.
“in one fell swoop you just informed us that apple doesnt make software, nor sun, nor hp, nor redhat, nor novell, nor ibm, nor hundreds of others. they are not a choice. they are not competition. amazing. and completely wrong. ”
first of all, hundreds of others is pushing it, but you made your point. there is competition in certain sectors for microsoft. but those sectors combined are a small fraction of the pie. for example, microsoft doesnt exist in the high performance computing market. but HPC is nothing compared to the office space or home desktop markets. so does that mean that IRIX can be used to show microsoft doesnt have competition? as i said, for all practical purposes, they are a monopoly.
“so you started following apple ads 1 yr ago? apple has macs for 20 years and they have targeted biz sales all along. dont be absurd. ”
apple had a very brief, and stupendously bad courtship with the business market. the xserve is their first product in years that targets businesses, which is one of the reasons its not doing that well.
“ms is a fortune 500 company and they have a whole division that builds softwar for macs. they probably own thousands of macs. might well have more than any biz in the world as a matter of fact. wouldnt surprise me at least. many of us saw photos a yr or so ago of a truck being unloaded at ms filled with g5 towers.”
I stand corrected, however they have very few products for mac, office being there to dodge anti-trust suits, and their macs are used to develop they few applications that the have on the platform. if ppc computers accounted for 1% of what exists at ms, i would be suprised.
“secondly, it would not surprise me one bit if every single biz in the fortune 500 had macs in the enterprise. not many, but at least some. ”
for high level execs or secretaries, perhaps. windows is the superior choice for corporations, its cheap and its good enough to get the job done. macs are high end hardware, and more of a luxery item then anything. other then art shops or newspapers, i dont see the mac playing a serious role in the workplace.
“if aunt tilly buys a dell today it has service pack 2 on it. if aunt tilly doesnt know what she is doing shes to get help from someone that can assist her. ”
service pack 2 fixes some of todays problems. microsoft is at something like year two of a five year plan to improve its security. if microsoft doesnt think that sp2 is anything more then a first step, then why should i? remember, longhorn will be 2007-08, thats a long time for those scum of the earth malware writers to play with. and even then, adoption of bleeding edge windows software has never been that fast…
“on your mac yes, ms makes browsers for macs and pcs. apple only makes their browser for macs. they make few apps for other platforms.”
safari is not subject to the same kind of attacks that ie is. it has gotten to the point of being redicules, a friend will come over, use the internet for an hour, by the time he leaves my pc is infested with spyware. its gotten to the point where i have a firefox shortcut that says “INTERNET BROWSER” and have removed all mention of ie from that machine. a mac user may get spyware, but it is nowhere near on the same level. as for ie on mac, it is a very bad version of ie 5. it doesnt support many of the things ie 5 for windows does. the only use it really gets on a mac users system is to visit sites that force ie (i.e. banks and such).
“does any software on your mac call home to the maker without your permission? yes. does any software on your mac report your habits and usage patterns? yes. does safari stop it? no. does the os x firewall stop it? no. are there rootkits for os x? yes. are there keyloggers for os x? yes. does os x have remote vulnerabilities? yes. does os have local user vulnerabilities? yes (i love the one from a while back where if you just typed in a long password enough times you got in ).”
i dont see what this has to do with anything, but yes, all those things exist. but again, in far fewer numbers then for windows. maybe you can clarify for me how this is relevent to the current discussion. the point of my aunt tillie story was to show 1) that the “choice” the customers have isnt much of a choice unless they fit a specific profile and 2) microsoft being in the position that it is in has more of a responsability to have a secure operating system then any of the alternatives. if a nasty worm hits the wild for mac, its a real pain for mac users, but not the same as when one is realeased for windows, and you end up with half the computers in the world doing port scans on you looking for the exploit. it is uncomparable.
“spyware exists on macs. tools to deal with it however are fewer and in many cases not free. free options on windows are abundant and do the job of protecting you very well indeed. does ms do it all themselves? no. but i as a user have control of my system and can secure my machine to my hearts content”
spyware is an annoyance for mac users, not debilitating the way it is for windows users. you can harden your os, but most people cant. but once again, you have taken what i was trying to say and going in the wrong direction with it. i am saying microsoft dropped the ball. even if, for the sake of argument, mac had the same number of problems in this area as windows. apple is a fraction of the size of microsoft. the amount of sheer money, and talent that exists in that company means that they should be able to handle problems like this. the only reason i can think of is to increase profit margins by cramming in more half tested features, instead of fixing the things that need fixing first.
and i have to say thank you, this is the first intelligent discussion i have had on osnews in AGES.
sorry to but in on this never-ending mac vs. linux vs. windows debate, but does anybody know if this new mce version will be a free update like mce 2004?
we arent sure yet my man. oct 12 is the day to find out.
my guess is no since they just gave away the update to 2004. but heres to hoping ms continues giving supreme value.
“there are currently two viable alternatives, mac and linux, and both target niche markets.”
thats it exactly. a free market, without govt control, without magical standards of control, chose overwhelmingly over a long period of time to go the route of using a single platform. end users speak by buying ms products. they, despite ms problems, want to have a platform that everyone else uses. they prize that as one of the most important things about computing.
stuff will work just like everyone else, they can communicate with everyone else, they can hire people and know what they were trained on, etc etc etc…all withouth some govt watchdog making the rules. the folks that today yammer about standards are the ones that lost the choice battle and now want govt and industry guard dogs to set the rules we all get to play by. funniest thing is now most of them want the “freedom” of linux but they still want some authority from above to set standards. standards are a bludgeon used by the underdog to nip at the heels of what others chose freely.
“that means that the average person who has barely an idea of what an operating system is”
you continue with this idea that consumers are ignorant and must somehow be helped by some guard dog.
“if its a windows world, why buy a mac and deal with the extra hassle?”
that is it in a nutshell. the consumer says neat mac but i want to best get along with everyone else so i will buy windows. that is choice. not a monopoly.
“first of all, hundreds of others is pushing it”
no its not pushing it at all. http://distrowatch.com/ count up all the choice of linux and bsd on there. the amount of choice is amazing. or here- http://www.linux.org/dist/list.html “Distributions matched: 266”
“apple had a very brief, and stupendously bad courtship with the business market. the xserve is their first product in years that targets businesses, which is one of the reasons its not doing that well.”
again, that is simply wrong. apple has been involed with biz since the days of the lisa. macs have been used in biz since 1984. apple has always marketed to biz. the xserve is just the latest hardware server. os x server os was out before the xserve and apple sold g4 tower servers prior to the xserve…before that they had other classic server oses and various other servers over the years. and their desktops get used in biz as well.
“I stand corrected, however they have very few products for mac, office being there to dodge anti-trust suits”
no ms has made ms office and the individual apps since the earliest days of the macs existence. back when apple was huge and ms was tiny. back when apple had huge profits and ms made little. back when apple was the most valued corporation in the world (did you know they were valued higher than ibm or mobil or ge or exxon back in 1985?). ms has always made software for macs.
“for high level execs or secretaries, perhaps. windows is the superior choice for corporations, its cheap and its good enough to get the job done. macs are high end hardware, and more of a luxery item then anything. other then art shops or newspapers, i dont see the mac playing a serious role in the workplace.”
you forget that big biz many times runs its own print shops, has its own web team, has its own video production teams, has its own training depts that make videos, etc etc etc. macs are probably used in every single biz in the fortune 500. and not as secretary typing machines.
“service pack 2 fixes some of todays problems. microsoft is at something like year two of a five year plan to improve its security. if microsoft doesnt think that sp2 is anything more then a first step, then why should i?”
oses are not static. security is not something you are ever done with. both constantly evolve. i dont understand where you are going with this.
“a friend will come over, use the internet for an hour, by the time he leaves my pc is infested with spyware”
see that doesnt happen to me or to any pc i am responsible for. so the difference isnt windows, the difference is the user or the admin.
“ie on mac, it is a very bad version of ie 5”
i agree. utter junk.
“i dont see what this has to do with anything, but yes, all those things exist.”
the point is that if any vulnerability exists, you are vulnerable unless you take corrective action. bottom line is all oses get attacked and have security issues to some degree….therefore all users of all oses need to take the necessary steps to protect their machines. apple doesnt include av softwar or spyware tools etc. nor does ms. both are needed on both platforms if you want to be a responsible computer user.
“microsoft being in the position that it is in has more of a responsability to have a secure operating system then any of the alternatives. if a nasty worm hits the wild for mac, its a real pain for mac users, but not the same as when one is realeased for windows, and you end up with half the computers in the world doing port scans on you looking for the exploit. it is uncomparable
the exact same logic is used by ms as for why they make their product as easy to use as possible. when ms turns on a firewall in xp, suddenly 250 million people have to learn how to use it. security and usability are always factored together. they go hand in hand and that has been the guiding hand of ms decisions.