Home > KDE > KDE 3.4 Beta 1 Available KDE 3.4 Beta 1 Available Submitted by Philipp Esselbach 2005-01-14 KDE 62 Comments KDE 3.4 Beta 1 has been released, more info here. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 62 Comments 2005-01-14 1:42 am Anonymous Agreed, KDE does rule. Is there a changlog or maybe a summary of the changes going into KDE 3.4? The feature plan is a bit too verbose for me. 2005-01-14 1:43 am Anonymous I recently switched from xfce4 to KDE. What a difference. I feel 1000x’s more productive. KDE is also very snappy on my laptop (FBSD 5.3-RELEASE). Looking forward to 3.4! – j 2005-01-14 2:07 am Anonymous XFCE4 is a GREAT minimal environment. Very quick. KDE is a huge power user environment. I love it. Have happily bought a big system to make the most of it, too. 2005-01-14 2:15 am Anonymous No, I would say that I prefer GNOME’s appearance, too. I wish the GNOME apps would incorporate Lotus Smartsuite-style floating palettes, though. We’d all be really productive, then! 2005-01-14 2:15 am Anonymous The only thing I miss from KDE is this. Number one is Konquerors Terminal Emulator, a really usefull browser tool. For useless eye candy I miss, is not being able to remove scroolbars, and menus etc, that you can do with Konsole. I would really like these two features added to Gnome. Still, I will keep on using Gnome. Mostly for liscence issues. I know QT would become opensource if they should ever go bankrupt, or whatever, but thats a crock of sheet. I don’t see this happening, and Im sticking with Gnome for the spirit of freesoftware “free as in freedom”. If you feel so inclined as to enlighten me, as to why I should use KDE, feel free to do so. Im quite interested as to what you may have to say. -Ashley Now Gnome user. 2005-01-14 2:21 am Anonymous Actually I believe by GNU’s definitions, QT is more free than GTK is as it is GPLed rather than LGPLed, meaning that people can’t use the library to make closed source applications, which should keep all the open source zealots happy. The only time it becomes non-free is if you want to release closed source applications, which would go against the “spirit of free software” anyway, and doesn’t affect the RMS style freedom of the software at all. 2005-01-14 2:24 am Anonymous I believe QT already is open source (GPL), is it not? 2005-01-14 2:25 am Anonymous <<Still, I will keep on using Gnome. Mostly for liscence issues. I know QT would become opensource if they should ever go bankrupt, or whatever, but thats a crock of sheet.>> “Qt is indeed Free software and is compatible with all of the major Free software licenses. Qt is licensed under the GNU GPL as well as the QPLv2. Qt is licensed under multiple licenses, just as Mozilla and Open Office are. All versions of Qt include a closed source development license option available from Trolltech. Early versions of Qt carried a special license that allowed non-commercial development without requiring a licensing fee. This license did not meet the criterion, however, to be called an Open Source or Free software license. Later releases were licensed under version 2 of the QPL which does qualify as an Open Source software license. This license is not compatible with some Free software licenses, such as the GPL. It is, however, compatible with other Free software licenses such as the BSD license. With the release of Qt2, the GPL was added as a licensing option. Software can now link against and use Qt as Free software using a broad range of licenses including the GPL, LGPL, X11, MIT and BSD licenses.” http://kdemyths.urbanlizard.com/viewMyth.php?mythID=10 Seriously, why do people keep rehashing that? 2005-01-14 2:38 am Anonymous the rewritten kpdf (in kdegraphics) and akregator (kdepim) 2005-01-14 2:40 am Anonymous Quote: “Seriously, why do people keep rehashing that? ” Because it gives an excuse to KDE bash that’s why. Gnome lovers love pointing to this licensing non-existant issue. Maybe they should compete on features and not arguments which have little merit? There is a reason why 65% of Linux users use KDE, and why the majority of Distributions use it as the default desktop environment. I’ll leave people to find out that reason for themselves. I personally cannot see why people carry about the Gnome vs KDE comparison/flame war – because it’s really pointless. Gnome doesn’t “do it” for me, and hasn’t for a long time (since v1.4), for a variety of reasons. KDE does. Others may be the opposite, each to their own. Dave 2005-01-14 3:05 am Anonymous To me KDE at the user level feels much more powerful and productive, but also feels bloated. GNOME doesn’t feel bloated but lack many features. GNOME looks much better by default than KDE, but again it doesn’t do many things KDE do as default… If the KDE people manages to fix its appearance and bloatness, we have a winner. 2005-01-14 3:20 am Anonymous “There is a reason why 65% of Linux users use KDE” Where did that random statistic come from? How could anybody possibly know that? I’m glad the new KDE is here. I personally am a Gnome fan (I think its looks better by a mile- each to his own), but my girlfriend loves KDE. Nothing better than making her happy. I do have to admit, it is a more complete desktop environment. Gnome just can’t compete when it can’t even burn CDs from MP3s. 2005-01-14 3:21 am Anonymous Qt is not only OSS but FOSS (except for parasites that want to make money off of others free work). The reason that no one yet has taken it and run with it, I believe is because Trolltech is already doing a superb job. So why fork. 2005-01-14 4:34 am Anonymous why the hell does KDE have that horrid Terminal Emulator in Konqueror and Kate? Couldn’t they make Konsole a KPart and embed it in programms? I love Kate and I don’t know why I have to look at that horrid thing. This is a generic comment to KDE not particularily this version; they might have addressed this: I doubt it. 2005-01-14 6:01 am Anonymous basically, QT is under the GPL/QPL license, if you’re writing a QT application, you’ll have a choice, license your program under the GPL or QPL. There is no LGPL or BSD license option, in a perfect world we’ed like to see LGPL/BSD option here. Shouldn’t you have the right to choose your license? I’m all for opensource, but you should have the right too choose your license for your application, and not forced by QT’s GPL license. 2005-01-14 6:49 am Anonymous KDE is a fine graphical environment. It’s pretty, it’s fast, and it’s … just plain solid. I’ve used it for awhile and usually keep an up-to-date version installed on my linux to satisfy my curiosity from time to time. But for some reason, I keep getting dissatisfied with it and doing the evil turning-back-to-Gnome thing. Is Gnome better? No, it’s got plenty of quirks of its own. In fact, the best thing going for Gnome is nothing more than its simplistic initial environment and the ability, for the most part, to customize it quickly (KDE allows this too, I know, among it’s plethora of options; but for some reason Gnome seems to be more natural in this regard). I just get tired of the HUGE number of goodies, tools, and features that the default install of KDE drops onto my system. Productivity? That starts to disappear when I have three or more choices for text editors, two to three for word processors, and a menu system chock full of useful and not so useful toys and powertools. KDE’s greatest attraction becomes it’s greatest weakness: feature overkill. What makes a user environment powerful and effective is not always it’s feature list, but having the right features in the right place at the right time… and consistancy. KDE may have started out with this goal, but feature overkill is drowning out any trace of it. I’m a gadget geek, but even I get tired of playing with features upon features. Wistfulness for the simple, the clean, and the organized eventually permeate my thoughts. Other people mention that they’ve moved from Xfce4 to KDE? Wow, I just tried moving in the other direction, and was pleasently surprised at the refreshing simplicity and cleaness of Xfce4. It’s not “there” yet, but it’s a welcome refreshement from the gadget craze currently going on in this world. KDE fits in with the mentality that chases after bigger systems, more hard drives, giant CPU boxes, 600 Watt power supplies, higher CPU GHz, wider screens, overclocked FSB’s, etc. What happened to simple, small, quiet, beautiful, AND fast? I wonder if the majority of users ever touch 25% of KDE’s functionality, but they need systems to drive 100% of it’s features. That said, I adore some of the applications built for Qt. Many of them are very well designed and fun to use. But I can run those in any environment I choose. If KDE rethinks the KISS principle someday, I may consider devoting a whole lot more time to it. 🙂 – John 2005-01-14 6:51 am Anonymous Here’s the link to “Qt Open Source Edition Licensing” http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/opensource.html?cid=19 2005-01-14 7:08 am Anonymous I wonder if the majority of users ever touch 25% of KDE’s functionality, but they need systems to drive 100% of it’s features. All those extra useless apps might be hogging a couple hundred megs of disk space, which is virtually nothing with modern hard drives. They do not hog memory and do not slow down your machine. No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to use all KDE applications at the same time. 2005-01-14 7:21 am Anonymous You didn’t get my point. Nobody holds a gun to my head indeed! This was a friendly examination of what I personally like or dislike about KDE. Nobody needs to agree or even be offended with my mere opinion. I simply yearn for less bloatware. Your retort that “all those extra useless apps might be hogging a couple hundred megs of disk space which is virtually nothing with modern hard drives” is almost like setting a table with 100 different dishes of food for one person, and saying you don’t have to eat it all… after all you’re rich! It doesn’t invalidate my complaint one iota. The fact that those apps fill a spot in the menu system that I neither need to see or need to use is bother enough for me. 2005-01-14 7:25 am Anonymous What is the point arguing with Gnomo-phites? They’ll be bitter no metter what. 20 comments already and not one useful link to a change log. Demn, I was hoping to find it here… 2005-01-14 7:33 am Anonymous This might be the closest you’ll get to a changelog, ATM anyway. http://developer.kde.org/development-versions/kde-3.4-features.html Everything in green (bottom) should be available in the beta. much love! 2005-01-14 8:00 am Anonymous Shouldn’t you have the right to choose your license? I’m all for opensource, but you should have the right too choose your license for your application, and not forced by QT’s GPL license. What on earth are you talking about? It’s up to the developers what license they choose – I tend to think Trolltech are doing pretty well here by offering the two they do. Do you think you should have the option to use the Linux kernel under another license than the GPL? Or Windows under the GPL for that matter if you have the right to choose your license? 2005-01-14 8:04 am Anonymous Why doesn’t this news link to a kde.org site but instead a site which is only replicating the press release? 2005-01-14 8:04 am Anonymous PLEASE STOP THE GNOME VS. KDE KIDS DISCUTION, IT IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. Sorry but I’m a little fed up with this type of debate, every single time there is news about GNOME or KDE. 2005-01-14 8:12 am Anonymous There is no harm in a discussion regardless of whether you see it as being a rehash of what has occurred before. By your uppercase message I can only assume your the one getting stressed. These types of ‘which is better’ discussions happen in the world from cars to pop music. Its life so you’d should get over it. Personally I dislike messages such as yours which are just as likely to inflame… 2005-01-14 8:31 am Anonymous Hey guyz let us please stop the G vs. K fight! Remember, it is not each other we are fighting against but we are fighting [kinda!] against the GUI from Redmond! Just a thought: United we stand, divided we fall! 2005-01-14 8:46 am Anonymous There is a reason why 65% of Linux users use KDE, and why the majority of Distributions use it as the default desktop environment. I’ll leave people to find out that reason for themselves. I really doubt that 65% of the Linux user use KDE. In the past that might have been true. Not because of the merits of KDE but rahter because Gnome was not mature enough. Today KDE still have the technical edge, but field is much more level than it used to be. The main problem in Gnome that remains today is that it is very hard, if at all possible to connect to windows file servers in a reliable way. This is probably why Gnome isn’t the default in most Linux distros. Other than that, you can do about the same things in Gnome as in KDE, however Gnome has the edge in usability. There will always be more users than develpers, and the users will only see how it looks and feels, not how elgant the code is designed. This makes it quite evident that the future belongs to Gnome regardless of what percentage KDE currently holds. The problem is that the KDE guys can’t seem to decide for whom they develop the system. Some of the stuff is very newbie orientd, while other things is clearly for experts only. The result is that both groups becomes pissed off. Not that there isn’t a lot of discussion on the look and feel of KDE on the kde mailing lists, but whenever the subject of usability comes up it usually only results in a reordering of the controls in the control center instead of any improvements of the general appearance of the system. I havn’t tested this new KDE 3.4 beta, I just hope that they have the focus on usability. It would be a pity and a real loss to the free desktop if KDE would disappear as a commonly used desktop. 2005-01-14 9:13 am Anonymous PLEASE STOP THE GNOME VS. KDE KIDS DISCUTION, IT IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE. You’re right. It’s better to concentrate on freedesktop.org, make the shared basis, the integration and interaction better. 2005-01-14 9:33 am Anonymous All the arguments are getting pretty boring. I use KDE in Gentoo and Gnome in Slackware. They both have their good points but generally i find them both to be excellent DE’s. I guess the debate is useful because it allows devs to see what features people like/dislike but i don’t believe it needs to get as hostile as it does 😉 2005-01-14 10:23 am Anonymous agreed. i use both gnome and kde. complaining that kde is bloated while gnome is limited is just plain stupid. complaining that kde mocks xp while gnome copies macosx is plain stupid. having 90% of the posts talk about gnome in a kde news thread is plain stupid. having to write patronizing posts like this is just irritating 2005-01-14 10:53 am Anonymous > Couldn’t they make Konsole a KPart and embed it in programms? It *is* the Konsole kpart you see in Konqueror and Kate. 2005-01-14 11:05 am Anonymous Looking at this page: http://www.kde.org/info/requirements/3.4.php I saw that for dns discover service, kde recommends mdns from apple http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/tarballs/apsl/mDNSResp…, but installing dropline gnome gets me howl http://www.porchdogsoft.com/products/howl/ So it’s possible to have one single implementation of mdns on one machine that is common to the 2 envrionment or we are doomed to have more libraries installed that do the same thing? 2005-01-14 12:34 pm Anonymous is there a link to linuxcompatible, which gives absolutely no new info other than “it’s out”… at least link to The Dot at http://dot.kde.org/1105642626/ 2005-01-14 2:22 pm Anonymous I recently switched from xfce4 to KDE. What a difference. I feel 1000x’s more productive. I recently switched from IceWM to Fluxbox (after switching from Blackbox to IceWM a few years ago). Certainly the biggest productivity increase came when I switched from KDE to Blackbox + GNU screen. Apart from k3b, I don’t see one thing that KDE (or Gnome, CDE, XWPE, etc.) provides that you can’t get a better alternative to with non-KDE/Gnome/*DE software. 2005-01-14 2:50 pm Anonymous i still prefer blackbox. simple fast and endlessly tweekable. yes my machine is more then capable of running kde or gnome. i just dont like them. 2005-01-14 4:47 pm Anonymous The reason was the Apple’s license is incompatible with GPL mdns was licensed under Apple’s license when gnome wanted to use it and they went with HOWL instead. later apple relicensed it under BSD and kde built upon that. technically it is possible now 2005-01-14 4:52 pm Anonymous It is a discussion that plainly needs to be done. People are not happy with KDE because of bloat, they are expressing this. People are not happy with GNOME because of the lack of functionality, they are also expressing thier unhappiness. What these people are doing is vocalising on a site where there is the off-chance that there might be some KDE or GNOME developers who might just pay attention and try and do something for future version. To listen to you guys here telling others to shut up… what is wrong with you ? Are you worried Windows users will be reading these posts and think the Linux community will tear itself apart because we cannot decide on a DE ? Wise up. Personally I use KDE. However, I use some GNOME apps inside KDE, like Totem. So what ? Are you KDE guys gonna hang me for making my desktop “impure” ? 2005-01-14 5:10 pm Anonymous basically, QT is under the GPL/QPL license, if you’re writing a QT application, you’ll have a choice, license your program under the GPL or QPL. Firstly “QT” (= QuickTime) is not under GPL, you are referring to “Qt” (= “cute”). And the word “license” is already included in the “GPL” acronym, no need to repeat that. Secondly the QPL license allows you to choose whatever licensing scheme you like to use, as long as the resulting software is available as sources. 2005-01-14 5:19 pm Anonymous thank you kde devs 🙂 2005-01-14 5:56 pm Anonymous yes, I agree mostly with what you said… especially those “I love GNOME”- End of Post. however, I do think that there is a lot of people purely wanting to get their frustrations heard, and hopefully there might be a few devs around here. Also, like you said, the topic has been argued with thousands of times before… but how many times has it been discussed by new converts to Linux. You said you liked Gnome up to 1.4, how many of these new users tried 1.4 ? People need to sound off, but constructively. KDE bloat is easy to spot, even for new users. Why should I need a weather service when I only asked for an email client ? 2005-01-14 6:19 pm Anonymous > Why should I need a weather service when I only asked for an email client ? Please stop trolling. These are even in different KDE modules. 2005-01-14 6:23 pm Anonymous If you need only KMail, why dont you start Kmail instead of Kontact? If you need a personal information suite, including news, mail, newsfeed, sync, notes, etc… why not include weather info as well? Your comment is uninformed. KDE is *less* bloated in this area. With evolution, you cannot start only the mail component. 2005-01-14 6:23 pm Anonymous they are indeed in different modules…. that is the point ! If I am installing kmail, it defaults to selecting Kontact… which includes extras like the weatherservice I think… I could be wrong. I am at work at the minute and have to use win2k here I will check later on, but I apologise in advance if I am wrong. 2005-01-14 6:27 pm Anonymous why are you laying one off on me ? go back and read my original post in here. I never said KDE was bloated 2005-01-14 6:29 pm Anonymous I love both KDE and Gnome but both in different ways. One thing I love about KDE is that it (to me) feels more complete and finished, with a lot of functionality. But I really dislike how most distro’s package it into those default large packages (kdeedu, kdemultimedia, etc) I love Gnome because of the look and feel I get from it, and how I can make it a minimalist DE if I choose to, due to the fact that everything is packaged seperately(Modular). I have recently played around with Debian Sarge and installed KDE through apt. What I noticed is that the maintainer took the time to split everything up, which is also the nature of how Debian does things. I now have a very minimal KDE destkop, which is amazing! No KDE games, no KDE Education programs, kwrite and kate only, no kmail as I like to use thunderbird more etc. The point Im getting at is that KDE doesn’t have to be bloated, it all depends on how it’s packaged. Now I understand this takes a lot more time and energy, but I don’t see the point of releasing something half assed. The beautiful part of OSS is that the people behind the software are very passionate about there work and tend to do a very good job, because after all they do it during what little free time they have to spare. I currently use Arch Linux, and it doesn’t package KDE like Debian does, but I plan on seeing if it is possible to do the same for this distro. Anyway, just my 2(canadian)cents *JUST MY OPINION* 2005-01-14 6:35 pm Anonymous Forgot to mention something. What I consider bloat is by having installed programs that will never get used by me, not how many settings there are eg: KDE control center, which I love btw. Again, what is considered bloat to one person is considered features to another. This all boils down to how it is packaged again! 2005-01-14 7:00 pm Anonymous “People need to sound off, but constructively.” You make many good and valid observations, one of those is “constructively”. However I fail to see much of value in these discussions which mainly deal with the issues I previously mentioned. I personally don’t think it’s so much about sounding of frustrations as it is bragging about “mine is bigger than yours” based on a few very superficial observations. My point was, and I’m sorry if I didn’t get that across, if you think people have a need/right to sound off, then why do you have a problem with people who say “That’s enough honking!”? “KDE bloat is easy to spot, even for new users. Why should I need a weather service when I only asked for an email client ?” I have no idea, perhaps because those who made the package for you thought you did? Besides, last time I checked the kweather stuff belonged in KDE-toys, rather than in KDE-pim which is where kmail resides. But that aside I agree fully with you, sometimes there is too much, or at least it seems as there is too much in the respective packages. One example is kdenetwork, why do I need kppp? OTOH, those applications seldom are very big, *or* they are needed for other stuff (I suspect this is how things are in a even higher degree for a lot of the multimedia and the contact management stuff too). But largely I think it’s more about packaging than anything else, I belive you can compile some of these packages without some of the applications in them. (Obviously the job of the packager..) The evidence for to support my admitedly shakey memory on the subject is that in debian konqueror is a separate package, or at least was when I last had to deal with it, and seeing something about it for some other package (can’t find the mail / irc log about it..). 2005-01-14 7:36 pm Anonymous I only use KDE, however I would like more options upon logoff like GNOME has (restart, reboot, etc..). 2005-01-14 7:39 pm Anonymous “it defaults to selecting Kontact…” That’s distribution specific, not a KDE issue. 2005-01-14 7:48 pm Anonymous “I only use KDE, however I would like more options upon logoff like GNOME has (restart, reboot, etc..).” Then use kdm as your login manager. 2005-01-14 7:49 pm Anonymous If you like Fedora and you like KDE you should check out “KDE for Red Hat”: http://kde-redhat.sourceforge.net/ great combination 2005-01-14 9:07 pm Anonymous …Ive yet to hear/read anything related to this topic. Is the kde 3.4 beta a big difference? Any substantial changes? I’ll probably get a better answer reading changelog and trying another forum where someone I know has tried it. As for me….Fluxbox and eterm and any apps without a G or a K infront of it. As for missing k3b…..cli rippers and burners are just fine. Both Gnome and KDE are bloatware. 2005-01-14 9:44 pm Anonymous -UI changes (better defaults in Konqueror apparently) -super kickass KPDF -Akregator now intergrated -media:/ (KDE equivalent to Gnome-volume-manager) -Kicker has been cleaned up/partially rewritten (supports hidden tray icons) -lots of work on KHTML -passwordless Kwallet (thank you K-devs!) -performance increases (seems snappier) lots more… 2005-01-14 10:58 pm Anonymous I recently switched from IceWM to Fluxbox (after switching from Blackbox to IceWM a few years ago). Certainly the biggest productivity increase came when I switched from KDE to Blackbox + GNU screen. Let me get it straight, you switched from KDE to Blackbox, then a few years ago, from Blackbox to IceWM, and recently from IceWM to Fluxbox. When was the last time you used KDE (2.x?)? Apart from k3b, I don’t see one thing that KDE (or Gnome, CDE, XWPE, etc.) provides that you can’t get a better alternative to with non-KDE/Gnome/*DE software. Fairy ’nuff. I still like to run WindowMaker from time to time. Infact I am happy just in a console often, I still run KDE most of the time though, not sure why. 2005-01-15 1:48 am Anonymous >> “I only use KDE, however I would like more options upon logoff like GNOME has (restart, reboot, etc..).” > Then use kdm as your login manager. And make sure a non-root user is *allowed* to shut down/reboot the machine! Only then these options are displayed to normal users. You can do this in the KDE control center under System Administration -> Login Manager -> Tab “Shutdown” 2005-01-15 5:26 pm Anonymous Great to know that Qt is GPL compatible, or any liscence as long as I provide the source. The thing is in my Library, a book i picked up for programming in GTK, Qt was out, mentioned that Qt didn’t have these kind of liscence. Mind you it was for GTK”1″ not they current GTK2. The reason I wanted to be “enlightened” was the plain fact that I want to start programming for GNU/Linux compatible distro’s. Im new all together to programming, accept batch files, if thats even programming. Im sorry if this was at all frustrating for some OSNews readers, but it has helped me to learn that I can program with Qt or GTK, the choice is really mine, and I wont be segregated, if that makes sense, by liscences. 2005-01-15 8:29 pm Anonymous <<The reason I wanted to be “enlightened” was the plain fact that I want to start programming for GNU/Linux compatible distro’s. Im new all together to programming,>> In that case, I STRONGLY recommend that you go with QT. The GTK+ documentation is horrible! Heres a free 450+ page guide to QT3 [21.8 MB PDF] http://phptr.com/content/images/0131240722/downloads/blanchette_boo… and some tutorials on c++ http://www.programmingtutorials.com/cplusplus.aspx 2005-01-15 10:44 pm Anonymous The GTK+ documentation is horrible! The fact you can’t search in the right place is your problem, do not blame GTK documentation, there are books and an excelent pyGTK tutorial in the web. 2005-01-16 1:04 am Anonymous <<The fact you can’t search in the right place is your problem, do not blame GTK documentation, there are books and an excelent pyGTK tutorial in the web.>> By all means, show me docs on GTK+ and all relating technologies like libglade with the same quality as the link I provided. 2005-01-16 1:41 am Anonymous By all means, show me docs on GTK+ and all relating technologies like libglade with the same quality as the link I provided. First you talk about lack of documentation, now lack of quality, your only goal is to spread fud about GTK, period. 2005-01-16 3:31 am Anonymous <<First you talk about lack of documentation, now lack of quality, your only goal is to spread fud about GTK, period.>> <QUOTE> The GTK+ documentation is horrible! </QUOTE> Horrible: adjective very bad, very unpleasant, or caused by anxiety or fear about something bad. http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults… I never said anything about a lack of documentation (even though glade and other GTK+ devel tools are severely underdocumented). I said everything that is available is of poor quality and scattered around. Take a look at the PDF, the only guide I’ve seen that comes close (for GTK+) would be the GTK# Developers Handbook, which isnt free BTW. 2005-01-17 4:36 pm Anonymous gtk documentation is god awful, and woefully out of date. anyone who says different really doesnt know what they are talking about. and im talking gtk, not pygtk, gtk#, gtkmm, or any of the other language bindings. that being said, i love gnome, and am not the hugest fan of kde. but a troll is a troll.