AROS, the AmigaOS clone which is being developed by Amiga enthousiasts, and who many regard it as the real future of the AmigaOS, now includes a simple WorkBench clone. Screenshots are available.
AROS With a WorkBench Clone Now Available
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
The title say it all… anyone know if Aros is the “OpenBeOS” for the Amiga classic?
Alejandro.
I mean… a 100% clone of the O.S. 3.1 (not a version of Be for the Amiga!!! 😉
I’ve seen the shot’s and some of the docs and info on the features… ok, I’ve just wiped out the entire HD of my other PC… this I got to see… and appreciate. Amiga OS for x86 :-)?
The whole thing fits on a floppy!
The AROS open source project was started many years ago and aims to be as compatible as possible to AmigaOS 3.1. This OS was released in 1993 for all Amiga models build since 1987.
If you want a faster, more advanced and real AmigaOS solution on x86 hardware (68k emulation, not a clone) also take a look at AmigaOS XL.
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=604
It is a very simple system if you compare with other open/free OS’s, but it does the job as no other one can do, that’s the essence of AmigaOS. The average user only needs that!. I’m sure it will make a lot of noise when finished, and we’ll see a new breed of amigans that will make it evolute in a way we cannot still imagine. If nobody forgets the essence, the real purpose of AmigaOS, this evolution will be positive and never fail in its objectives. Amiga has been a dissapointing bussines for the last 8 years. Aros WILL make a difference.
If you don’t want the highest possible AmigaOS performance on x86 hardware, but you only want to see what AmigaOS is like, then my recent WinUAE emulation tutorial may be of interest to you:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1561
This article also includes information on freely available AmigaOS software and games. I have to add that you can use WHDload patched/enhanced ECS/AGA games mostly with the latest AmigaXL update as well.
Could someone (hint to Eugenia
)please explain all the Amiga OS variations? I’m continually bewildered by the variety.
Also, I’m interested in what made the Amiga so great. From what I hear, it was one of the best systems for multimedia during the late 80s. What makes it compelling today?
I’d really like an OSNews article on this; it seems as if there are plenty of Amiga lovers around here.
Current Amiga offerings:
————–
AmigaOS 3.9-2: The latest version of the 68k AmigaOS with the ability to use PPC software for people owning classic Amigas with a PPC accelerators.
AmigaOS XL: Fast classic AmigaOS emulation package for x86 hardware which includes two emulators and a full version of AmigaOS 3.9-1. One emulator is for QNX RtP which works seamlessly with the host OS and functions more stable and faster than WinUAE. The second emulator is extremely fast and allows you to boot straightly into AmigaOS from HD or CD. The downfall is that it doesn’t emulate old Amiga chipsets (required for most older games/demos and some applications).
Amiga Anywhere Entertainment Pack #1: Games pack with AmigaDE games and Amiga Anywhere engine (derived from AmigaDE, see below) Compatible Devices: @migo 600-C, Audiovox Maestro PDA1032, Audiovox PDA1032C, Casio GFORT, Cassiopeia E-100, Cassiopeia E-115, Cassiopeia E-125, Cassiopeia E-200, Cassiopeia E-2000 (Japan), Cassiopeia E-700, Cassiopeia E-750, Cassiopeia EM500, Compaq iPAQ 31 36 3700 Series, Compaq iPAQ 3800 Series, HP Jornada 560 Series, HP Jornada 720, NEC MobilePro P300, O2 xda, Toshiba E570, Toshiba Genio-e
http://www.amiga-anywhere.com/
UAE/(and Fellow) Amiga emulators: Free Amiga emulators mainly aimed at games emulation, but the latest JIT UAE versions are decent for AmigaOS emulation as well. Officially supported package with everything needed and lots of extras is the Amiga Forever package: http://www.cloanto.com/amiga/forever/
——–
Work in Progress:
Official Amiga Inc supported projects:
AmigaOS4: A complete port of AmigaOS 3.9 to PPC hardware with many additional features. This project is lead by Hyperion. And will later on include AmigaDE integration. Related OSNews articles:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1356
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1505
AmigaDE: A platform independent software layer. Comparable to Java and .Net but fundamentally very different. As a result it is much smaller and offers a superior multi-media perfomance:
Related OSNews article:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=459
TechTV demonstration:
http://www.aminet.net/pix/mpg/BillTechTV.mpg
Rival or unofficial projects:
AROS: The Amiga Research OS – Open source project.
MorphOS: PPC AmigaOS clone, AmigaOS4 rival and highly Amiga-like and the OS even offers a high degree of classic AmigaOS compatibily. Related OSNews articles:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=637
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1151
I hope this helped a little.
> What makes it compelling today?
– AmigaOS is small, efficient while still offering a featureful environment.
– Screens: With only the press of a mouse button you can switch between different screens with independent resolutions and color depths on the fly. Think about being able to test your websites in different resolutions on the fly. Think about old applications opening up in full screen windows, instead of becoming tumbnails on your currently much higher resolution desktop. (Often also possible if you prefer that, but most people won’t)
– Completely modular desktop OS – Do you hear monopolistic companies claiming that integration of 3rd party applications like browser, multi-media applications, etc make the OS faster. Well AmigaOS proves this to be nonesense, on AmigaOS you can take out almost anything and replace it with an alternative and both the application and OS will fly.
– Completely customizable environment – Do you hate having a Dock? Why not delete it and install a Startbar instead? Do you want your OS to look like MacOS X or QNX or do you want to design the ultimate desktop yourself? Possible without too much effort.
Some of the advantages of using AmigaOS on classic hardware will be lost on new PPC hardware, this is sadly due to hardware limitations of modern PC technology, some of these lost features include:
– Screen Dragging (offering you the ability to see different screen resolution/color depth screens within one display). Will be possible to implement in software but will then be very slow instead of realtime and seamless on classic Amiga hardware.
– Advanced floppy controller (the Amiga diskdrive controller is far more advanced than “modern” PC diskdrives (unable to read 880kb/1720kb Amiga diskettes due to the lack of sector gaps, etc) but a third party solution may become available later on.
– Genlockable graphics, simply combine movies with computer generated graphics, example is Disney’s Dinosaur animation. More advanced graphic cards may properly support this feature again in the future.
I’m not feeling compelled
I find it interesting that there are so many AmigaOS projects. Certainly, there is some effort being wasted.
I’ll just take Mike Bouma’s points one-by-one:
“- AmigaOS is small, efficient while still offering a featureful environment. ”
Like QNX? Like Linux+X11+Blackbox?
”
– Screens: With only the press of a mouse button you can switch between different screens with independent resolutions and color depths on the fly. Think about being able to test your websites in different resolutions on the fly. Think about old applications opening up in full screen windows, instead of becoming tumbnails on your currently much higher resolution desktop. (Often also possible if you prefer that, but most people won’t)”
This sounds rather cool, but I’d think it would take a few seconds for the monitor to adjust to a new color depth. I’m a big fan of virtual desktops (I have 16 on my GNOME2 and KDE3 desktops), but I don’t really see the point of having virtual desktops with different color depths and resolutions.
And anyway, in X11, you can quickly change the resolution and color depth by doing CTRL-ALT-(Numeric Keypad + or -), if I remember correctly.
“- Completely modular desktop OS – Do you hear monopolistic companies claiming that integration of 3rd party applications like browser, multi-media applications, etc make the OS faster. Well AmigaOS proves this to be nonesense, on AmigaOS you can take out almost anything and replace it with an alternative and both the application and OS will fly. ”
You can do this with Linux. Especially the part about ripping out anything and replacing it with something else.
“- Completely customizable environment – Do you hate having a Dock? Why not delete it and install a Startbar instead? Do you want your OS to look like MacOS X or QNX or do you want to design the ultimate desktop yourself? Possible without too much effort. ”
Again, I can do that with Linux/X11. I can choose between dozens of WM’s, and some of them can be extremely customized.
FWIW, I’d really like to have a desktop that looks like QNX, but I don’t want to write my own WM. Also, I doubt that you can get a desktop that looks exactly like QNX in Amiga, without doing any coding.
“- Screen Dragging (offering you the ability to see different screen resolution/color depth screens within one display). Will be possible to implement in software but will then be very slow instead of realtime and seamless on classic Amiga hardware.”
Can’t you do this using Xnest or VNC?
“- Advanced floppy controller (the Amiga diskdrive controller is far more advanced than “modern” PC diskdrives (unable to read 880kb/1720kb Amiga diskettes due to the lack of sector gaps, etc) but a third party solution may become available later on.”
People still use floppies? I can understand why this might have been an advantage 15 years ago, but now?
” – Genlockable graphics, simply combine movies with computer generated graphics, example is Disney’s Dinosaur animation. More advanced graphic cards may properly support this feature again in the future.”
Cool, but not important for me since I don’t make movies.
Unreal Tournament 2003 is out. See you all in 2003.
I find it interesting that there are so many AmigaOS projects. Certainly, there is some effort being wasted.
well, different people have different ideas. that’s like saying that linux is a wasted effort since Microsoft is allready doing an OS. well, there’s a larger difference between them, but you get my point?
I’m not sure if it would have worked out better if you’d throw all those people together on one project. In fact, I highly doubt it.
Like QNX? Like Linux+X11+Blackbox?
yeah, pretty much like that, still a lot different though. more like QNX rather than Linux+X11+Blackbox.
This sounds rather cool, but I’d think it would take a few seconds for the monitor to adjust to a new color depth.
color depth no, resolution yes. However on my monitor it takes like 0.3s or something to switch between resolutions, so it’s not much of a problem for me(don’t know about other monitors).
BeOS has the same feature, and I find it very useful.
You can do this with Linux. Especially the part about ripping out anything and replacing it with something else.
sure, since most stuff is opensource, it’s fully possible. but is it as easy as it is on AmigaOS and BeOS(pretty much by simply d&d a file) in most cases? I’m not sure, but I have a feeling that for example replacing KDE components would require a lot more work and insight.
Also, I doubt that you can get a desktop that looks exactly like QNX in Amiga, without doing any coding.
Why is it so important that it’s exactly the same? I love the BeOS desktop, but I could certainly live with something that’s similar or even different but better(because it’s not perfect even if it’s the best I know of).
Can’t you do this using Xnest or VNC?
That would be considered a hack (or a joke) in that situation. He’s not talking about remote desktop management here.
People still use floppies? I can understand why this might have been an advantage 15 years ago, but now?
agreed. he’s talking about the old amiga hardware’s advantages though.
but yeah, floppies aren’t that relevant today, even if they are still being widely used.
Cool, but not important for me since I don’t make movies.
Well, it is important to those who work with video right?
And I guess that you watch TV and movies right? then it is indirectly important to you. A lot of tv stations still use Amigas you know.
AROS is not considered a HOME for ex Amigaians. Well, i dont believe so anyway. Most people considered a fun experimiental OS.
I considere it something i would like to look at. But as far as the Amiga Future looks, i’d say that would have to be AmigaOS4 and future platforms from Amiga Inc.
AROS is simple a very very cool OS project. Extra cool for those who like AmigaOS.
These guys have dont a lot of great work, but if people are looking at this for a Desktop OS. They might wanna come back after 2 years or so. There still needs to be Apps developed for it and there still is no good userbase.
Its pretty much ATM, an experimental OS that has some very interesting aspects.
Correctly me if im wrong but the classic Amiga’s had special chips and special monitors so that reslotions could be displayed at the same time. Ie. this is how you ge tyour real time screen draging.
note: Screens will probably still be avaliable in later AmigaOS versions, but dont expect to see the AmigaOS ever displaying more then ONE resolution at one time.
That is screen draging between same resolutions may be avaliable and “flipping” screens not only very plausable, but most likly.
> Correct me if im wrong but the classic Amiga’s had
> special chips and special monitors
No special monitor would be needed for screendragging.
Yes the original Amiga chipsets were extremely special for their time, allowing huge amounts of sprites being moved aroung the screen simultaniously, photorealistic pictures with up to 4096 colors simultanious at the time most sold PCs and Macs were still monochrome (Top PC models already had 16 color graphic card though
) and it allowed screen dragging.
Later on some graphic cards also supported this feature, however as AmigaOS was the only OS that could support this feature and Commodore bankrupted eventually this feauture wasn’t supported anymore in graphic chips.
> Screens will probably still be avaliable in later
> AmigaOS versions
Without a doubt will it be available in AmigaOS4 and probably as well as for the MorphOS rival product.
> but dont expect to see the AmigaOS ever displaying more
> then ONE resolution at one time.
No not in AmigaOS4.
> That is screen draging between same resolutions may be
> avaliable
Probably not in AmigaOS4 though.
I’ll be glad when the AROS project is 100% complete, then I will have full control over my OS (Currently Amiga OS3.9), & I’ll be able to fix some of the more annoying quirks in it. With respect to Linux, the Amiga OS is still popular (at least to me) because you don’t need a BS in computer science to understand it. Linux is such a large collection of stuff that no one person could possibly understand everything about it. At least with the Amiga OS, I can usually find and fix any Hardware or Software problem. If Linux could do all that a modern OS has to do in the space that the Amiga OS occupies, I’d go with Linux as my OS of choice. Until then, long live the Amiga!
> I find it interesting that there are so many AmigaOS
> projects. Certainly, there is some effort being wasted.
Well AmigaOS has a competitive market. AmigaOS4 and MorphOS are commercial competitors for the desktop market. AmigaOS4 uses Picasso based graphics, MorphOS uses CybergraphiX based graphics, AmigaOS4 uses Reaction as interface manager, MorphOS uses MUI by default, and so on. Many applications will be available as both a MorphOS and AmigaOS4 version, the consumer can then decide for himself which offering he thinks is more compelling.
The AmigaDE is targeted at embedded uses. It can run on top of other operating system or as a standalone operating system. It will be used in later versions of AmigaOS as a compatibility tool for Java and AmigaDE software.
> Like QNX? Like Linux+X11+Blackbox?
Yes the QNX Neutrino kernel was once chosen as a foundation for a new official Amiga branded Amiga-like OS under Gateway. Gateway eventually dropped all Amiga related projects when they received pressure from Micorsoft. In 2000 they sold Amiga to the current owners.
Do not however that AmigaOS offers a far more advanced, powerful and flexible desktop environment than QNX RtP.
http://www.gfxbase.com/wbshots/wbshots.shtml
> This sounds rather cool, but I’d think it would take a
> few seconds for the monitor to adjust to a new color
> depth.
This is instant on classic Amiga hardware. We will need to see what happens for AmigaOS4 running with mainstream graphic cards.
> I’m a big fan of virtual desktops (I have 16 on my
> GNOME2 and KDE3 desktops),
Although virtual desktops (X11, BeOS) are based on the way AmigaOS handles screens, the AmigaOS approach is alot more powerful. It is alot faster, less resource demanding and the upper left gadget allows you to page trough different screens without the use of the keyboard (although that is also possible).
> but I don’t really see the point of having virtual
> desktops with different color depths and resolutions.
This advantage is best explained by giving an example. Think about this: In the future you may be using resolutions up to 5120×3840, if so, most of your current applications will either look like tumbnails on your desktop or the lay-out will be severely ruined. With screens with the exact resolution and color depth your application was developer for this problem is solved. (Note you can often choose such settings on AmigaOS manually)
> You can do this with Linux. Especially the part about
> ripping out anything and replacing it with something
> else.
Yes this was one reason why Linux was proposed as a basis for a new AmigaOS as well. But Linux in general is slow and bloated for desktop usage so this was a major reason for AmigaOS users to reject this idea. They have a point though, as else they could use WindowsXP or MacOS X instead.
> Also, I doubt that you can get a desktop that looks
> exactly like QNX in Amiga, without doing any coding.
It can be done to a great extent, but it makes no sense to limit yourself to a level of GUI functionality which QNX RtP provides. Like having no icon system or screens concept. Here is an example QNX-like effort by an AmigaOS user: http://www.trotta.de/club/wbx/016.html
> Can’t you do this using Xnest or VNC?
No.
> People still use floppies?
Agreed, but I had to mention this so people don’t think they can use Amiga formatted diskettes without buying special hardware for their new AmigaOS4 platform first.
> Cool, but not important for me since I don’t make
> movies.
I’m not saying you need to use every feature Amigas provide. Maybe you want to limit yourself to a Command line interface on a PC. That’s your *choice* and completely fine with me.
I found that feature very useful as I could easily add sub-titles to my home made videos or an animation.
Well one problem is that AROS is an open source OS without the benefit of commercially paid software developers. It takes alot more effort to create a quality product when many different part-time developers are involved. I believe this is a main reason why AROS has progressed this slowly. I also believe the same is and will be true for OpenBeOS and AtheOS.
responding to myself:
> the upper left gadget allows you to page trough
> different screens without the use of the keyboard
I meant the upper right gadget.
More info on AmigaOS screens: http://hammer.prohosting.com/~amifaq/screens.html
I may create a demonstration video if I can find enough time later next week. Screens are extremely useful and could mean to be a very important selling point for AmigaOS compared to unflexible MacOS X and WindowsXP solutions.
I don’t get, how can such a small OS in size (MB) can do so many things? The same as a full featured desktop OS. Does it have to do something with the language they used to write the OS? Assembly? I don’t know much about Amiga so I am new to it.
No OS is compelling if you are used to another one. One is constantly
wanting the new one to behave exactly like the old.
The main thing to realise is that AmigaOS is not a Unix, nor is it a
Windows clone.
It’s a small, efficient single-user microkernel OS with a single
memory space shared by all programs. The result is that it is fast,
responsive and easy to use, but not secure or stable. Programs have to
be less buggy than on other platforms because a crash will often bring
down the whole OS.
It’s a very modular OS, unlike Windows where everything seems to be
entangled with everything else. That makes it technically easy to add
new drivers etc.
Extensive use of linked lists in the OS makes it very scalable – for
example, there is no fixed limit to the number of fonts you can
install.
All programs that are scriptable (and most Amiga programs are
scriptable to some extent) use the same scripting language, a dialect
of Rexx. That means you can easily write custom scripts that make use
of several programs.
The public screens concept seems to baffle those not familiar with it.
The idea is that each program getas the whole disploay to itself, edge
to edge. There is nothing on the screen here now except the browser –
no task bar, icons, wallpaper, dock, etc to clutter up the display.
To go to another screen with another program on it, I select from a
menu accessed by holding down the right mouse button at the top right
corner of the display (a good Fitt’s Law position). A screen can
include more than one workspace, but this is not usual. A program can
run on another program’s screen (useful for small utilities).
A major advantage of the Amiga, shared to some extent with Linux, is
that the user has direct access to the author of a program.
Amiga OS was first designed for the A1000 with 256KB memory
later versions could use up to 16MB.
It’s small because there is no bloat, no useless features.
AmigaOS has a very efficient and documented library system with version numbering and backwards compatibility.
If you installed a newer version of a certain .library the old programs still worked. (try that with Windows)
Most stuff was written in C, with speed sensitive things in 68k assembler.
> Amiga OS was first designed for the A1000 with 256KB
> memory later versions could use up to 16MB.
All most common classic Amiga models could be easily upgraded to 128 MB RAM by the usage of expansion boards. (Even the old 1987 A2000 and still sold A1200/A4000 models)
> It’s small because there is no bloat, no useless
> features.
The fundamental OS is very bloatless and efficient while offering many, many more unique features not found on rival platforms (while maintaining a much smaller code size). However you could easily add whatever useless feature you can find on other OSes.
Equivalent programs on AmigaOS are mostly always alot smaller than on rival platforms (often by a factor of 10!) because Amiga developers are excellent coders who optimise their code as much to perfection as possible and the fact that 68k code is about half the size of PPC code.
“If you installed a newer version of a certain .library the old programs still worked. (try that with Windows”
Win16 apps work on Win95, win95 apps work on win 98, win98 apps work on WinMe even on WinXP.
Oh yeah, VB4 apps wont work on VB5 runtime environment etc coz diff libraries.
> The result is that it is fast, responsive and easy to
> use, but not secure or stable. Programs have to be less
> buggy than on other platforms because a crash will often
> bring down the whole OS.
Memory Protection did not make much sense for AmigaOS in 1985. First of all the initial CPU had no MMU.
Later when MP started to make inroads onto desktop platforms, AmigaOS still remained more stable. OSes like Windows were very unstable at the time, many blue screens of death and system lock-ups. Alternatively for proteted development for AmigaOS tools like Enforcer were used: http://www.sinz.org/Michael.Sinz/Enforcer/index.html
And although the classic OS did not use MP at an OS level an application like WHDload does use memory protection for running old Amiga games and demos:
http://www.whdload.de/
Also note that AmigaOS4 will include memory protection.
—
Here’s a video of last year’s big German Amiga show (it includes coverage of most of the available Amiga solutions):
http://www.virtualdimension.de/inscene/amiga2001/indexe.html
Currently there is virtually every weekend an Amiga show being held every week until the big German Amiga show held on the 7th and 8th of December 2002 in the Eurogress in Aachen.
http://www.eurogress-aachen.de/
All most common classic Amiga models could be easily upgraded to 128 MB RAM by the usage of expansion boards. (Even the old 1987 A2000 and still sold A1200/A4000 models)
Since when? I have an A3000 collecting dust and RAM chips for that one were expensive compared to DIMMs
You could use ordinary EDO/FastPage/EDRAM RAM modules with Amigas at the same time when they were heavily used for PCs. For your A3000 there existed many accelerator cards which either included 2 or 4 72pin SIMM sockets. For info with regard to accelerator for your A3000 turn to The Big Book of Amiga Hardware:
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/
The Cyberstorm solutions are of excellent quality.
You could look around for one of Phase 5’s 68060 accelerator cards to
fit the A3000. They will hold 4 32 Megs SIMMs.
I wouldn’t spend too much on it, though. And make sure the A3000 is
still working – computers that are left switched off for long periods
often suffer from leaking batteries.
Memory Protection did not make much sense for AmigaOS in 1985. First of all the initial CPU had no MMU.
I was once told by one of the original Amiga engineers that they could have added memory protection for IIRC $0.50 per machine, unfortunately Commodore were to cheap to include it.
Later when MP started to make inroads onto desktop platforms, AmigaOS still remained more stable. OSes like Windows were very unstable at the time, many blue screens of death and system lock-ups.
WIndows didn’t get memory protection until NT. Win9x didn’t ever have proper memory protection and consequently crashed at every possible opportunity – and ran like a snail compared to the Amiga, which had much lower end hardware when I changed.
However even without memory protection AmigaDOS (as it was then called) was a great deal more stable, programmers had become very careful and crashes were pretty rare.
BeOS was so good because JLG in part based it on the Amiga experience.
—
AROS
These guys have dont a lot of great work, but if people are looking at this for a Desktop OS. They might wanna come back after 2 years or so. There still needs to be Apps developed for it and there still is no good userbase.
If AROS is an implementation of the Amiga API there will be dozens of apps, all they need is a re-compile. People seem to forget the Amiga has been around 17 years…
Me just got an A1000 😀
> I wouldn’t spend too much on it
I agree, if you really want a more modern AmigaOS based system it may be better to get an AmigaOne, when they are released later this year. They are much cheaper, more modern and offer a much better performance.
“If AROS is an implementation of the Amiga API there will be dozens of apps, all they need is a re-compile.
People seem to forget the Amiga has been around 17 years… ”
The trouble is that the source code for most Amiga programs is no
longer available, or in most cases would need porting from SAS C to
gcc.
So yes, there could be dozens, but not hundreds unless they include a
68k emulator, which ATM they regard as very low priority.
Originally, AROS was planned to be an exact functional clone of
AmigaOS 3.1, but that seems to have changed somewhat recently and it’s
moving more toward being another new OS “inspired” by AmigaOS.
AROS is an impressive project, and it could be a final platform for
Amiga users if all the others fail.
The great thing about AmigaOSes is that there are so many of them
(like Linuces).
AROS is not an AmigaOS inspired OS as that is not the point, you may as well use BeOS.
AROS is a true clone. If you compiled AROS for the 68K it would run normal Amiga classic apps with no problems.
Sure we aare including many of the tried and test improvements which Amiga users have been hacking into AmigaOS for years, but we include them as part of the OS and not as hacks.
As for 68k emu, UAE works fine in AROS, we hope to make it a little more transparent… in a similar vein to MacOS9 on MacOSX.
Thanks
“This sounds rather cool, but I’d think it would take a few seconds for the monitor to adjust to a new color depth. I’m a big fan of virtual desktops (I have 16 on my GNOME2 and KDE3 desktops), but I don’t really see the point of having virtual desktops with different color depths and resolutions. ”
Then you may not have a use for it. BeOS has this feature too. Each virtual desktop can have a different background, resolution and color depth. It’s awesome really. Aside from testing web pages at different resolutions and color depths, it makes more sense to watch .mpg’s and .avi’s which are say 320×240 (or anything much smaller than your current resolution) at say 640×480. The quality is better and the performace is better. If you have a particular app that needs more screen real estate you can give it that real estate and then go back to the lower resolution for other work like word processing etc… It’s fast too. I can’t say I have ever sat there and said “gee, I wish it didn’t take so long to switch resolutions and color depths”. A second or two is nothing when you consider the benefits.
Of course, I can switch res./col. depth without a reboot in XP as well, it just isn’t as easy or fast to do.
Satori.
@ Mike Bouma
Just a simple question: can I know why you have to transform any thread even remotely related to Amiga into a shameless sequence of pro-AmigaOS adverts?
You could use ordinary EDO/FastPage/EDRAM RAM modules with Amigas at the same time when they were heavily used for PCs
I think I bought the last 8MB of ZZIP ram’s before that time..
Got a PC late 1997, Cyberstorms weren’t that good value for money.
he does it because #1… he believes in the quality of the amiga (as do many people who have used it)
#2…. linux users advocate linux.. windows users advocate windows.. mac users advocate mac.. bsd users advocate bsd.. beos users advocate bsd.. so why shouldnt he?
and last but not least… (and yes i know this is a shameless rip of a professional wrestler’s catch phrase) #3.. because it is “THAT DAMN GOOD”
Hey Fabio, Mike Bouma was ASKED by an earlier poster to provide details. I learned a lot of new details about Amiga in this thread and that’s why this thread is valuable. I think this is entirely on-topic; what harm has been done to you? Would you prefer shameless pro-BeOS adverts or shameless pro-Linux or pro-MacOS or…
Why must there always be some kind of complaints or personal attacks…
I don’t mind him giving the infos he’s asked for, what I mind is that he also gives infos which he’s not asked for, and they are always the same: in the long run, it gets annoying.
Mike uses to say “If you want a faster, more advanced and real AmigaOS solution on x86 hardware (68k emulation, not a clone) also take a look at AmigaOS XL.” so often that I’m beginning to believe that he now copies and pastes that statement from some kind of repository, to make typing faster
Mind you: I’d say the same even if the OS in case were to be linux, or any other OS out there.
Anyway, this is not a personal attack, it’s just a critique of a certain behaviour. I hope you’ll allow me to express my opinion about whatever topic.
Fabio, note that “repetitive” quote was never used exactly like that by me ever before!
One reason why I write about AmigaOS is because it offered me a computing experience unbelievably ahead for its time, I also write about AmigaOS because it still offers many unique features I would love to see adopted in new OSes, be it AmigaOS, bet it MorphOS, or bet it even QNX.
For these features to be adopted and appreciated, other people need to know why they are useful as well. As he or she who does not know, simply does not care. This is also what happened when people were buying limited MSDOS computers instead of buying an advanced 32-bit pre-emptive multitasking AmigaOS based a uique multimedia hardware platform.
> what I mind is that he also gives infos which he’s not
> asked for
I try to give only related info. AROS is a x86 based clone, therefor as I only recently created a WinUAE tutorial I thought some people would find that interesting as well, the same goes for my AmigaOS XL review.
Also I don’t think I should not be allowed to speak only if someone asks a question. For instance, who asked you for giving your opinion?
> “If you want a faster […] AmigaOS solution on x86
> hardware (68k emulation, not a clone) ”
BTW, please, don’t blame me for flaming, but I really have to ask this: an emulated solution faster than a native one?
> BTW, please, don’t blame me for flaming, but I really
> have to ask this: an emulated solution faster than a
> native one?
Yes one emulator used in the AmigaOS XL package uses special JIT emulation techniques (still estimated to be only around 40-60% of the performance compared to a native AmigaOS port, would it exist), this combined with the efficiency of the *original* 68K AmigaOS and the fact that emulator uses native x86 drivers and can use native x86 Amiga applications, it truly *is* alot faster and a much more feature complete solution than AROS currently.
Note that this emulator sits on top of a small optimised x86 kernel and is not running on top of a bloated OS like Windows.
I personally do not like emulation when offered in place of native solutions. Right now, the only way for new users to get started with new Amigas is to emulate them. It’s unfortunate. I looked on eBay for used Amigas just so I could educate myself on the hardware and software (I am eclectic where computing is concerned and I LOVE technology that was not just ahead of its time but that should have defined standards) and the used Amigas were too expensive for my hobbiest desires and there are too many “workaround” issues in regards to upgrading memory and devices. Luckilly, through emulation, I have been able to experience what Amigas were like (software and behaviorally) without the actual Amiga.
I’d rather have a brand new, hardware-based, native Amiga. The question is: is there a reason to offer this any more?
I’d still love to get an Amiga 4000 just to study it, so if anyone wants to donate, let me know
Mike wrote:
> Fabio, note that “repetitive” quote was never used
> exactly like that by me ever before!
I noted that, it was just a joke. Nonetheless it was totally unrelated to the question being asked and sounded more like unasked advertisement (which is elsewhere known as SPAM) than qualified information. Moreover, you gave incorrect information there, by saying that the emulated AmigaOS solutions are faster than AROS.
> One reason why I write about AmigaOS is because it
> offered me a computing experience unbelievably ahead for
> its time, I also write about AmigaOS because it still
> offers many unique features I would love to see adopted
> in new OSes, be it AmigaOS, bet it MorphOS, or bet it
> even QNX.
As long as they are your opinion, and as long as they are expressed as such, I really don’t mind them. What I mind, as said, are those totally unasked for advertisements.
> For these features to be adopted and appreciated, other
> people need to know why they are useful as well. As he or
> she who does not know, simply does not care. This is
> also what happened when people were buying limited MSDOS
> computers instead of buying an advanced 32-bit
> pre-emptive multitasking AmigaOS based a uique multimedia
> hardware platform.
That’s called “advocacy”, and I don’t like it when it means that you get overwhelmed with informations which you hadn’t asked for. One thing is to express opinions related to the topic being discussed, another thing is to throw in the discussion totally underalated matter.
> > what I mind is that he also gives infos which he’s not
> > asked for
> I try to give only related info. AROS is a x86 based
> clone, therefor as I only recently created a WinUAE
> tutorial I thought some people would find that
> interesting as well, the same goes for my AmigaOS XL
> review.
Many other times, when the AROS topic came up in the comments expressed in this site, you always “pointed out” that there are “better AmigaOS solutions on x86” out there… if I were to be malicious, I’d say that you’ve got something with AROS, specially if I consider that you’ve been privately prompted, by at least one person, to talk about AROS, and never cared of giving a reply.
> Also I don’t think I should not be allowed to speak only
> if someone asks a question. For instance, who asked you
> for giving your opinion?
As said, you don’t give opinions, you do advertisement.
Should I consider all the SPAM I get in my mailbox as an exploitation of the right of speach?
> Yes one emulator used in the AmigaOS XL package uses
> special JIT emulation techniques (still estimated to be
> only around 40-60% of the performance compared to a
> native AmigaOS port, would it exist),
Mike, I know what I’m talking about, and I also know what you are talking about, unfortunately you don’t seem to know what you yourself are talking about.
I know that a JIT compiler is used and I know what JIT means and how it works, I also know that by the sole fact that emulation is involved and that the memory is kept in big endian order, despite the complete disliking of that format by the x86 family of processors, the emulated AmigaOS environment can and will never be faster than a native implementation.
As a matter of facts, I did some tests and published them on ANN, in which an app, compiled with the amithlon port of gcc, which directly emits native x86 code, albeit accessing the memory in big endian mode, is shown to be 15% slower than the same app running on linux. If a “native” Amithlon app is slower than a native linux one, can you tell me how can an emulated app be faster than a native one?
> this combined with the efficiency of the *original* 68K
> AmigaOS and the fact that emulator uses native x86
> drivers and can use native x86 Amiga applications, it
> truly *is* alot faster and a much more feature complete
> solution than AROS currently.
More feature complete, without any doubts, faster? LOL
> Note that this emulator sits on top of a small optimised
> x86 kernel and is not running on top of a bloated OS like
> Windows.
The “small optimized x86 kernel” is just a plain linux kernel, patched a little to suit the amithlon needs, surely not optimized at all. See the benchs mentioned above for further information.
I’d suggest you to make correct information, next time.
AROS certainly does appear to be slower, but that is due to the fact that the native version is only using the ancient 4bit VGA graphics modes at the moment.
Let us not forget that the version of AROS out there at the moment are nothing more than test releases which allow us to get more feedback about different hardware configurations that we could ever get any other way.
Improved Graphics support is being worked on.
> Nonetheless it was totally unrelated to the question
> being asked and sounded more like unasked advertisement
> (which is elsewhere known as SPAM) than qualified
> information.
With regard to that comment I just stated that AmigaOS XL may also be of interest to people, nothing more and nothing less. I just noted you are an AROS developer, please don’t feel offended. I have absolutely nothing against AROS, but IMO it still has a long road to go to offer anything as advanced as for instance what the average user gets if they try that my WinUAE tutorial.
> As long as they are your opinion, and as long as they
> are expressed as such, I really don’t mind them. What I
> mind, as said, are those totally unasked for
> advertisements.
I mostly use “IMO” or “I believe that” when stating my personal opinions, and I do so alot. I consider it a fact that Bernie’s emulator offers a faster and more feature complete solution to general users, currently.
> I’d say that you’ve got something with AROS
I do not, however I am convinced AROS still has a long way to go to offer me a feature complete solution.
> specially if I consider that you’ve been privately
> prompted, by at least one person, to talk about AROS,
> and never cared of giving a reply.
Sorry. What do you mean? Nobody has contacted me privately
with regard to AROS lately!? Most questions I receive privatley are with regard to AmigaOS4 and AmigaDE!?
Matt Parsons, good to see a more open minded AROS developer (with regard to me) here on OSNews.
> AROS certainly does appear to be slower, but that is due
> to the fact that the native version is only using the
> ancient 4bit VGA graphics modes at the moment.
And that was exactly the point I was making. From a user’s point of view Bernie’s solution *currently* is ALOT faster. That emulator truly flies on x86 hardware, regardless of all the performance penalties imposed by emulation. AROS does not fly at all! Maybe internally you have versions with great graphic card drivers, maybe internally you have it running much faster and more optimised, but externally I can’t judge this.
Note, that I have always pointed Amiga users/developers who are interested in open source to the existance of AROS. IMO open source has great value for educational purposes, I do believe that fulltime developed commercial projects mostly offer much better end results and this in much shorter time spans. Sorry if that may offend you, but I clearly stated that this is my personal opinion and it is not in any way meant personally.
> and never cared of giving a reply.
It is always possible that an email slipped my attention. I receive hundreds of emails every single week, all from leading Amiga community figures, including from Bill McEwen and Ben Hermans. Sometimes I delay my personal reply (if required/desirable) because I see other messages as having a priority status, maybe I forgot about this specific email, well if that is the case then I am say that I am truly sorry, but it was not in any way intentional.
I would like read at OSNews an article detailing the OS timeline includying all at moment existings OS and main characteristics.
I had never heard about AROS and it exists too much years ago.
It would be interesting read about the main branches begining with DOS, Unix, Others?, Continuing With OS2, Windows and its Versions, Novell Netware, Linux and all BSD flavors, Solaris, IRIX, BEOS, QNX, Amiga, MacOS and Now MacOS X, Minuet OS, MicroNano OS, Atheos, SkyOS, NewOS. The clones and variants AIX, FreeDos, Openbeos, eComstation, AROS, Lindows, Cosmoe, BlueEyedOS, Syllable and all other unknow OS projects. Also may be cool know which ones are comercial, experimental, hobbist, open source, Desktop Oriented, Server Oriented, Media Oriented, Multipurpose, 32Bit, 64Bit, Multithreading, Filesystem, Multiprocesor, Hardware Architecture, etc.
This will help to the community view from a wide point of view all options, and may be it will help understand why all this variants exist.
This info and a resume of each OS may be permanent in this site. The links Help, but it’s much more out there.
Thanks.
To answer the title: YES! Except it is further on in its development than OBOS.
As said, you don’t give opinions, you do advertisement.
Should I consider all the SPAM I get in my mailbox as an exploitation of the right of speach?
Mike gives information, often usefuls stuff you don’t find elsewhere unless you go digging for it. He does not bombard people with unwanted information.
You can simply not read the thread or his comments if you don’t want to.
So irrespective of what you think of his comments they are absolutely not Spam.
Great work.
And, Mike Bouma – F*&% the haters. Amiga rules, in any form. Linux my arse.
In a modern Dutch Zoo located in Emmen they have Amigas in use for over 15 years now. These are used as multimedia/information stations. {Pictures of animals are being shown, by using a trackball people can click these pictures and they would then hear the noise the animal normally makes, like the roaring of a lion, then a page will come up telling everything about the animal’s habitat and behaviours etc, very cool.
Interestingly these machines have never ever crashed. Today I see Windows being used for alot of internet stations and mostly something seems to be wrong with some of them.
The early versions of AmigaDOS upto 34.36 were coded in BCPL. This changed with version 36.xx onwards when C was adopted.
The underlying OS was based on TRIPOS for the preemptive multitasking when the inhouse choice fell by the wayside.
The single most outstanding feature of AROS is the fact it’s under a license (APL – which is a modification of the Mazolla license) that technically greatly reduces what I call IP Bitch Slapping incentive. In practicality, it eliminates such incentive.
This is a major and important difference and everyone who has commented so far is very well aware of this difference.
The effect this difference has on people and the way they think and view AROS shows up very clearly.
It seems that the “official” AmigaOS and approved products tend to require a great deal of hype and promises made and often broken….. to get any attention.
AROS, on the other hand, is downplayed. Effort seems to be applied to make it out to be less than it is.
Proprietary Amiga products = hype and false promises.
Open Source AROS = because you can see where it is and keep up with the provable fact of development, it is downplayed.
Interesting how the ones hyping Amiga are the same ones downplaying AROS.
Does this mean that Proprietary hype, IP Bitch Slapping and unfilled promises is what people really want?
Alt of good Amiga supporting companies went out of business due to all the IP bitch slapping that has gone on over the years regarding Amiga IP.
Personally I’ve had far more of that crap than I ever wanted, and I’m sure there are plenty more who feel the same way. As such I suspect that the people of these past Amiga supporting companies may very well someday return to the original Amiga values of openness, once AROS becomes more complete and widely used.
I think there are those who are afraid of AROS, considering the growth Linux is enjoying and the fact that many people don’t need as complicated a system as Linux presents. As such, AROS will indeed be found useful and wanted by many who have never owned an Amiga, but are tired of Windows abuses and are not interested in linux complexity.
People who are batteling the speed war are foolish. For the systems we have today as many times faster than yesterdays systems and it’s only going to get faster.
I’d rather use a slower open system than be IP bitch slapped with what may be faster but far more constrained systems, in regards to my freedoms, creativity and innovation.
A matter of what can be summed up in reading the Declaration of Independance.
When was the last time you read the D.of I.?
The history of Amiga can be summed up to0 be one a lot more in troubled waters than not. Even when it was first being developed they ran out of money and had to sell the Amiga technology that had been developed up to that point. Commodore bought it.
But still, for most of Amigas life span, if you want to call it that, it has been in troubled waters.
I really do believe AROS removes what so many have called the Amiga curse…….What is most certainly IP bitch slapping.
IMO AROS is a nice experimental and educational OS project, supported by some good developers. For many years now I check to see what is being added with every new release, but I always end up deleting AROS as it, in its current form, does not give me any additional value over for instance using 68k AmigaOS with AmigaOS XL or even WinUAE emulators. While these solutions are also less than optimal they allow me to create an environment I like to use.
IMO for high quality software development, open source development models are greatly flawed. So much is being invested into Linux with IMO far too few results. You can take the efforts by commercial software developers on Linux as an example, which almost all failed miserably. Regardless of the size of what the Linux community is said to be, i.e. Hyperion’s excellent Amiga game ports like HereticII, Shogo and Freespace outsell their excellent Linux games counterparts. There is some kind of attitude problem within the Linux community which makes them believe that all (hard worked for) software should be available for free, with so many people pirating Linux commercial games.
With regard to innovative new OS developments, IMO open source models are also greatly flawed. As when someone comes up with a revolutionary new idea, such developers are unlikely to share this with the rest of the open source community. It’s the difference of adding (temporary often soon forgotten) fame to your name or adding fame to your name AND making money with your ideas.
I am not saying, Linux and other open source projects are useless, no far from that. But what I am saying is that compared to commercial projects they consume too much time, efforts and money. In my view, ideally there should today be alot of commercial competitors without the allowance of creating virtually unbreakable software monopolies and in addition platform independent efforts like Java an Intent should be used to keep a high degree of compatibility between these different solutions.
IMO the most important reason why so much effort is put into open source development is because currently no such competitive commercial OS market exist.
I certainly appreciate your views, and I respect you’re decision to make such a firm stand against the open source movement.
I would like to note however, that;
1. The Amiga has been sustained by the effors of people producing free software for the last 6 years.
2. IM Humble O an operating system should be free, while I agree that commercial software is generally of better quality than OSS. Operating sysems have been proven to be more secure and more stable if development is open source.
3. I agree that the version of AROS you download now are not worth keeping. We are constantly trying to improve AROS, we can’t do that unless people download what we have done so far and test it for us, telling us what needs to be done for them… Hopefully one day in the not too distant future you will be able to download AROS and find it more useful, but unless you give us clear pointers as to what you need then we can’t help you directly.
4. Try to keeps comments positive, I really don’t like negativity.
If anyone has questions of any sort about AROS we have a IRC channel on EFnet (www.efnet.org for servers) called #aros where some of us idle.
> 1. The Amiga has been sustained by the effors of people
> producing free software for the last 6 years.
Please read my comments again, more carefully this time. I am not against Free software nor am I against Open Sourced software!
Although do note that Shareware (the bulk of the better quality freely distributable classic Amiga sofware) and other fully commercially developed software titles are generally of far better quality.
Mozilla and OpenOffice.org are very promising but note that these too are based on commercially developed software. If I have to choose between Gimp (many open source developers) and Photogenics (mainly the work of Paul Nolan) I would 100% say that Photogenics is the better quality product between those two.
> 2. IM Humble O an operating system should be free
And I believe developers need to get payed for their work just as much as hardware developers or any other kind of workers should be paid for their efforts.
> while I agree that commercial software is generally of
> better quality than OSS.
For me this is far more important than having an OS available for free. If I buy a computer for over 1000 Euro I think it is very strange to all of the sudden become very cheap with regard to the price of the OS, which is used to get the maximum performance out of this hardware.
I don’t believe hardware developers should get paid more than software developers for the same level/amount of work. Many hardware developers have kids to feed and so do software developers.
> Operating sysems have been proven to
> be more secure and more stable if development is open
> source.
IMO instability issues or general incompetence of certain mainstream OSes isn’t caused by their closed nature. Both MSDOS and AmigaOS were closed software during the same period of time, but in terms of general quality you can easily see that MSDOS was a stoneage product.
Also due to open source people can more easily abuse security holes. You can use the attacks on Amiga.org as an example. Hackers could more easily abuse their knowledge by attacking Linux solutions then closed source solutions *if* they want to! If a malicious coder is among your open source group he can intentionally leave backdoors open, without you knowing about it (especially if the code is a complete mess and lacks proper documentation). Although the same applies for closed solutions, due to lesser involved individuals and more reliable and tracable job records such possibilities are more limited.
Do you personally know every developer in your open source team? Are you sure nobody is using false names, etc?
I am not saying this would be the case, as AROS is of too limited value for malicious hackers/coders to attack, but please think about this.
> Hopefully one day in the not too distant future you will
> be able to download AROS and find it more useful
And of course I will be keeping an eye out, just as I have been doing these last couple of years.
> 4. Try to keeps comments positive, I really don’t like
> negativity.
I am not negatively minded with regard to AROS at all. Keep up the good work and proof me wrong!
OSS has it’s uses. I’ve generally found that I can twist Open Source Software to my liking. I’ve rarely used non-OSS software I liked.
The last non-OSS piece of software I used that I liked was TVpaint on my miggy, which iirc is no longer being deved and is now freely aviable.
The problem with hardware price is that if one pays out a lot of money for hardware it leaves little money for OS. There are a few nice commercail unixs out there, but those cost money, which after shelling out as much as I do for hardware, it is hard to get commercial software. Thus I personally looked towards BSD, and found it to be a nice and workable system. Being a backplane fan has never been cheap, but industrial hardware is nice when compared to the general crap that the consumer level stuff tends to be with its limitation of expandability. BSD especially is nice in this, since I don’t have to mess with tracking down drivers any time I wish to add something new to my system. This is another reason I’ve advoided some commercial unixs is that I don’t feel like having to track down drivers and ect when I wish to something new. OSS can also benice for when one get stuck rolling there own drivers. OSS is also nice in regards that it allows some one to take a system and port it when rolling their own hardware.
As far as source is concerned. Sloppy source wether closed or open is bad and is a problem for any future dev.
OSS has it’s place. In the world of wierd comstum built systems and hardware hacks I exist in, they have a great purpose, which is to make it all possible, becuase the is no commercial support for any of it. This is in gerenal becuase those that mess with area have no profit to make other than their own gain from which is brought about by its existence. All my code I make open and freely aviable. Yes, even thought money would be nice, especially for me being a college student, some things are just better left open. If some one else comes a long and says cool, I think I can take what he did and expand on it and make it even more cool. I like evolution. OSS at it’s best is has great ability for this.
Why should ppl use there real names? I never bother doing so and don’t see why I ever should even in rl. All some one has to know is how to reach me and the name I choose to respond to. Annoynimity is a good thing, which offers one protection from those that would hurt one.
Yes the devers need to make a living, but generally with most things I’ve not found that the price of what is produced is not worth the price that is charged for it.
AOS was nice in it’s 3.1 form, but with 4 and possibly MOS, I think there is a slight problem, PPC boards are cheap now especially that the older, but still useable, industrial stuff is being retired. I think AROS will fill this niche nicely, but iirc there is not currently some one working on any ppc stuff for AROS
Think about being able to test your websites in different resolutions on the fly.
Yeah, that’d be great, if we had some decent browsers… 🙁
MadDrZ, I agree Open Source has his place. Many useful programs for which no commercial future exists are eventually released as open source.
Olly, that comments was with regard to the usefulness of screens, not with regard to the current features of classic Amiga browsers.