Linux desktops have always faced an uphill battle against Windows desktops. Now, OSDL is calling together architects from over two-dozen key desktop-oriented Linux projects to a Dec. 1-2 meeting at its headquarters to set strategic directions and standards, and find synergies amongst Desktop Linux organizations.
freedesktop.org
Its the only means we have of ensuring all apps regardless of toolkit or desktop interoperate in some standardised way.
Without it, desktop linux will remain an incoherent and inconsistent experience. For me this overrides all other problems Desktop Linux has.
freedesktop.org
Its the only means we have of ensuring all apps regardless of toolkit or desktop interoperate in some standardised way.
Freedesktop is the big lie I’m afraid. It is certainly 100% sensible that all desktop environments (not just the two) have software in common they should contribute to. The X server is one, along with many other common areas of interest where it is far more productive to try to work together.
However, it is not a means of standardising desktop environments and technology. There are some people trying to pretend that it is, mostly for their own ends, but it isn’t.
S’not? They lie? Talk specifics when defaming others intentions and efforts please. They seem to be unifying the application interfaces in a big way. Even though I may think they should have patched rather than forked X I still think their efforts should be encouraged and applauded.
Maybe they can finally convince Gnome, KDE and others to use common libraries instead of Desktop specific libraries. Maybe then they could interact with each other alot better.
Why are we using kio and gnome-vfs when we have things like FUSE?
Why are we using stuff like arts, ESD and half a dozen other sound daemons when directly using ALSA and incorporating gstreamer would be a much better common solution.
Etc. Etc.
Why are we using kio and gnome-vfs when we have things like FUSE?
For one FUSE is too new, doesn’t provide all the specific things that are necessary and it is Linux specific.
Maybe they can finally convince Gnome, KDE and others to use common libraries instead of Desktop specific libraries.
That is not a matter of convincing. If such libraries exist, they are used.
In most cased there aren’t independent libraries that have all the current features (functional compatability), are stable API and ABI wise and are actively maintained.
In cases where these criteria are fullfilled, the respective libraries are usually used by most projects in that domain.
Why are we using kio and gnome-vfs when we have things like FUSE?
I am not sure about the project’s details, but I though it was Linux-only and required mounting the remote resource.
Why are we using stuff like arts, ESD and half a dozen other sound daemons
Do you know the situation at the time when the platforms GNOME2 and KDE3 were created?
I am pretty sure that GStreamer was founded later.
Both GNOME and KDE projects are intending to drop their sound daemons in the next major version of the desktop, I believe. As someone else has correctly posted, ALSA / gstreamer was not a viable solution at the time of GNOME 2.0 and KDE 3.0. ALSA still did not support many devices, did not do software mixing (the main point of sound servers), and Gstreamer didn’t exist.
Distros are perfectly aware of the shortcomings of esd and arts and would like to move wholesale to the much cleaner ALSA / dmix solution, but it’s not viable so long as there are still devices unsupported by ALSA and apps which cannot output native ALSA audio (and don’t work well through aoss).
<i style=”text-indent: 0.5in”>
Why are we using kio and gnome-vfs when we have things like FUSE?
Why are we using stuff like arts, ESD and half a dozen other sound daemons when directly using ALSA and incorporating gstreamer would be a much better common solution.[/i]
FUSE is ideal for implementing a filesystem interface to something, but doesn’t provide the per-user GUI semantics of gnome-vfs or kio. Namely, both VFS approaches have features like turning off thumbnails/previews if the cost of providing them is high, of providing authentication prompts, of handing exceptions related to the underlying protocols, and of being user-specific.
As far as ALSA and gstreamer, both GNOME and KDE are already moving in this direction.
I must say that after trying a lot of so calling desktop distros I’ve stop hoping anyting from the linux world …
Let me explain :
– What I saw there is just egocentric battle ( my distro is better than the other, blablabla )
– No standardisation of nothing ! ( Major distros are incompatible because of point 1 … conf file aren’t at the same place … well done ! And event in a one single file like xorg.conf you’ve got 4 diffrent ways to enable an option !! )
– Still great base problems : mount/unmount of CD/DVD USB devices is still weird and sometimes it fails miserably …
– No communications, I mean that’s so horrible to read a manual not up-to-date with no exemple … I know that point 1 and 2 make difficult this task of keeping it up to date !!
All of those point made me loose all my hopes for linux to hit desktop ! Also something that really makes me angry is people who said : ” try this distro or that one instead … ” How can anybody said that ?! That means what ?! Incapacity of putting what’s working on each distro ?! I’m not dealing with diversity but stupidity : configuring the same software differently leads to what ?! cf Suse and all those conf file …
I must say : on windows you spend your life updating windows itself, antivrus software, anti-trojan, anti-spyware and also about each 6 month you reinstall… but here on linux you’ve got things that work for 2 month then disepear, you also keep configuring / compiling software, you should have a mirror of all forums everywhere to find solutions … what an alternative !!
“I must say that after trying a lot of so calling desktop distros I’ve stop hoping anyting from the linux world …”
Exactly. KDE has released version 3.5 today. … Packages are avalaible now for ArchLinux, Kubuntu, Slackware and SuSE or try Konstruct to build it yourself… Why all these packages, what I want I *a* package for *a* linux platform. Period. I’am also tired with all these distros with different packages, which are more or less updated.
Btw, KDE looks really nice.
Why all these packages, what I want I *a* package for *a* linux platform.
Then use aLinux
http://www.alinux.org
All fun aside. You seem to be incapable of making a choice and sticking to it. When you choose one distro and standardise on that and stop having extreme updateritis (a half year old package is not that old), GNU/Linux is bliss.
But what if that half-year-old package you talk about has bugs? What if the user has a genuine need for a new feature?
It’s not down to “choice”. It’s down to the lack of any standards, binary compatibility or consistency, so few users can install the new KDE without all sorts of hiccups.
There are enough posts on this story saying the same thing, so why dismiss these users?
Linux isn’t for everyone. Judging by your attitude, it probably isn’t for you. Different strokes for different folks, eh?
Linux software installation *will not* change to be more like Win or Mac anytime in the near future.
Library incompatibilities will remain an issue. There are many technical reasons for this, but the most important one is developer resources. Designing and, more importantly, testing for backward compatibility is an ugly, time consuming, and unsexy task. FOSS projects are resource strapped and those resources they do have are better applied to fixing bugs and adding features.
Tht said, repositories with an installer which checks for dependecies, such as apt, are a very good solution with numerable advantages over the Win and Mac approaches, as well as a few downsides. One thing new user’s need to accustom themselves to is that stepping outside of the official (or quasi official) distribution channel provided by your distro places you in experts only territory. Thus if you absolutely have to update or install an application which is not provided in your distros official repositories, you have a couple of choices:
1. Compile from source. Not exactly a black art, or even really difficult, but not exactly newbie territory either.
2. Hunt down an unofficial package which supports your distro/version. Anecdotal evidence is that this approach usually works just fine, but problems are possible and it is possible to completely ruin your OS install. Not recommended for newbies.
3. If neither 1 nor 2 will work for you, as you can’t afford the time cost of educating yourself beyond the newbie class, then you’re better off using Windows or Mac. Enjoy.
<Linux software installation *will not* change to be more like Win or Mac anytime in the near future. >
And this is why it will continue to be a geek toy and little else (on the desktop anyway).
<Library incompatibilities will remain an issue…>
Only because the Linux community as a whole has stubbornly refused to adopt a sensable way to install and manage applications. Its not as if there aren’t solutions, theres GoboLinux, Klik (sorta), AppDirs, PBIs (Implimented on PCBSD, but nothing preventing a similar solution from working on Linux). Its just that the community has huddled together in defense of the all-powerful blackbox package manager, which has outlived its usefullness in this situation (its still pretty usefull for managing the base system and for servers).
<2. Hunt down an unofficial package which supports your distro/version. Anecdotal evidence is that this approach usually works just fine, but problems are possible and it is possible to completely ruin your OS install. Not recommended for newbies. >
How can anyone think that installing a non-malicious application (even a third party one from some guy’s freeware site), and consequently ruining the OS install, is acceptable? Windows and MacOS can install 3rd party non-malicious applications from random websites without worying about ruining the OS!
<3. If neither 1 nor 2 will work for you, as you can’t afford the time cost of educating yourself beyond the newbie class, then you’re better off using Windows or Mac. Enjoy.>
I will.
The real laugh is these silly, “it’s not windows hissy fits”, but the high point of yours that really made me laugh had to be:
“Windows and MacOS can install 3rd party non-malicious applications from random websites without worying about ruining the OS!”
along with the premise of the, “linux community”, as some sort of single entity which miraculously speaks to you with a single voice and offers no choice whatsoever.
Real funny stuff, thanks.
Sure. Laugh at me. Its that eletist attidue that keeps usefull suggestions from ever being implimented. You people keep asking “Why isn’t desktop linux more popular?” and when someone gives you an answer you laugh at them, because obviously they don’t know what they’re talking about if they don’t praise package managers as the end-all be-all of software installation and management.
Let me let you in on a little secret: That part you’re laughing at, about not breaking the OS installation with application installs? Its entirely true for the most part (so long as the app doesn’t have malicious intent). And the fact that you, like so many others shove your fingers in your ears and scream “la la la la la I can’t hear you!” whenever somebody mentions it is one of the reasons Linux on the desktop is in the state its in.
As for the whole “Linux Community” thing, yeah sure, not all linux users are the same, but the majority of zealots pushing adoption typically act the same, as you’ve aptly demonstrated.
Bad troll…
And this is why it will continue to be a geek toy and little else (on the desktop anyway).
Linux is already quite a bit more than a mere geek toy and I believe it has very bright future as a desktop in managed situations, but I don’t suspect Linux will ever really be a great choice for home computers. On the other hand, it is already one of the heavyweights in the embedded and appliance markets, which will eventually replace home desktops anyhow.
And as I said before, apt is a superior way to manage software installation anyhow.
Only because the Linux community as a whole has stubbornly refused to adopt a sensable way to install and manage applications.
No! Certain things could be done, and are being done to lessen the underlying problem, but ABI incompatibilities will always remain straight down to the kernel interfaces. Gobo, Klik, AppDirs and PBI do not address the underlying issue of dependencies. They are ways of managing dependencies. Klik, or really cmg packages, is actually the closest to what you seem to want. It’s slick and it does have some great uses, but it will never become the primary means of installing software, it wasn’t designed to be. And in the end it accomplishes what it does by packaging private versions of its dependencies with the application (which can be trivially achieved in other manners). This has its downside, but I do think it is the best method for package 3rd party software (particularly binary only) for Linux.
How can anyone think that installing a non-malicious application (even a third party one from some guy’s freeware site), and consequently ruining the OS install, is acceptable?
It could ruin the install from a newbies point of view, which, I might add, is trivially accomplished in Windows (I make a living by, among other things, bringing “ruined” Windows installations miraculously back to life). Linux is extremely hard to get into state where it is really unrecoverable.
<Bad troll…>
Yes, thats right. Everyone who doesn’t agree with you is a troll.
<Linux is already quite a bit more than a mere geek toy and I believe it has very bright future as a desktop in managed situations, but I don’t suspect Linux will ever really be a great choice for home computers.>
Which is what I meant by “Desktop”. Maybe I should have been more specific.
<No! Certain things could be done, and are being done to lessen the underlying problem, but ABI incompatibilities will always remain straight down to the kernel interfaces. Gobo, Klik, AppDirs and PBI do not address the underlying issue of dependencies.>
They seem to do a really great job. I’ve NEVER installed a PBI that didn’t work.
<They are ways of managing dependencies. Klik, or really cmg packages, is actually the closest to what you seem to want. It’s slick and it does have some great uses, but it will never become the primary means of installing software, it wasn’t designed to be.>
But several of the other methods I mentioned were. AppDirs and PBIs specifically.
<And in the end it accomplishes what it does by packaging private versions of its dependencies with the application (which can be trivially achieved in other manners). This has its downside, but I do think it is the best method for package 3rd party software (particularly binary only) for Linux. >
Exactly. So whats the problem? Why is there still so much dependancy hell if its so trivial a problem?
<Linux is extremely hard to get into state where it is really unrecoverable.>
Sure, if you use that definition of “ruined”, but I doubt thats what the original poster intended. And you might be right about windows. Personally I’ve never seen a Win32 desktop ruined by software that wasn’t intentionally malicious (spyware, adware, ect). And I’ve never seen such a problem with OSX.
Hilarious. I can’t just use my computer and get new software, without going through all those somersaults, and you try to belittle me for not “educating myself”?
Condescending arrogance + blind belief that Linux is somehow better in every way = 5% desktop market share after 15 years, and many potential convertees jaw-dropped at the sheer mess that is Linux software packaging.
Congratulations. See you in 2010 when Linux has 7%, the same problems, and you’re still covering your ears 🙂
Hilarious. I can’t just use my computer and get new software, without going through all those somersaults, and you try to belittle me for not “educating myself”?
No. I’m not belittling anyone. Linux is what it is. And it is not a generic consumer desktop operating system. You can either learn to work with it, an effort which will be met with a not inconsiderable return, or you can use another system better suited to your needs.
What software can you not get through the existing methods?
And Linux software packaging is not a mess. It’s different and, in many respects, technically superior to anything which exists on Windows or Mac (well now that Mac has apt…).
Congratulations. See you in 2010 when Linux has 7%, the same problems, and you’re still covering your ears 🙂
By 2010 Linux will very likely have somewhere on the order 20% – 30% of the global desktop OS market. A majority of that market will probably be in Asia, but uptake all around the world will continue to increase. Some of it will be in the form of a generic desktop operating system for home use, but for the most part Linux will spread in large centrally managed environments, a situation where it actually offers a significant economic incentive to shift away from MS. By 2020 I suspect a good portion of the global population will own at least one linux device, if not more (cell phones, digital “convergence” devices, media players, TVs, etc…).
By 2020 I suspect a good portion of the global population will own at least one linux device, if not more (cell phones, digital “convergence” devices, media players, TVs, etc…).
With a future like that, why should Linux focus on the desktop? Oh yeah, its really not. Cool, glad thats settled.
There are enough posts on this story saying the same thing, so why dismiss these users?
Because thats not some easy feature that can come out in the new Ubuntu or SUSE version like SATA support or the newest open office. What you ask for is magic- a complete change of how Linux is.
In Linuxland, what is best is what wins. You won’t get what you want till one distro “wins” on the desktop (I say from an outsider not involved yet who will come and poor money in like never heard before- like IBM did on the server). Till then it is what it is.
I think its great because I don’t worry about running the newest things. But is that is your priority then don’t use any Desktop Linux. Just know that what you ask is not easy, and until users demanding it can give solutions instead of complaints things will stay like they are…
All fun aside. You seem to be incapable of making a choice and sticking to it. When you choose one distro and standardise on that and stop having extreme updateritis (a half year old package is not that old), GNU/Linux is bliss.
You are absolutely right. I am incapable of making a choice. Do you know why?
– Because distro A in recognizing my printer and not my mouse and distro B is recognizing my mouse not my printer.
– Because I like to play with the the couple Python/wxPython. Where can I find wxPython for my distro? The only updated and ready to use version I know is the Windows version. Debian (as an exemple) sticks with an older and buggy version. Compiling the package myself? to complicated for me.
You proposed alinux.org. Why not? I am pretty sure, in less than two weeks, I will have to face the same kind of problems I have with distro A, B, C, D…
I do not claim Windows is the system to use. At least, it is the OS that gives me the less problems (w2k). You see, nothing really new, I’m just a stupid user, who is not able to find a distro that suites his needs and just works out of the box. This year I spent a lot of time with “linux”, in 2006 I will not.
– Because I like to play with the the couple Python/wxPython. Where can I find wxPython for my distro? The only updated and ready to use version I know is the Windows version. Debian (as an exemple) sticks with an older and buggy version. Compiling the package myself? to complicated for me.
Okay, you say you like to play with Python/wxPython, and then you say that compiling a package is too complicated? Unless I’m missing something, that doesn’t seem to make much sense…
How long did it take? 10 hours?
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=12813
Was about the very same subject it seems. Nothing has changed… OSNews which really can put together valuable articles ought to be wiser than to keep spreading the hype.
I seriously don’t believe anything has changed in the Linux world from that previous article to this one. Nor do I think the beginners guide to Linux contributed anything else neither.
Yes we know Linux has (according to some) been ready for the desktop for 10 years while most of us feel it simply is not ready for it because of it’s many problems. In a year or so, please publish an article again with the emphasis on what has actually changed…
Yes we know Linux has (according to some) been ready for the desktop for 10 years while most of us feel it simply is not ready for it because of it’s many problems. In a year or so, please publish an article again with the emphasis on what has actually changed…
Linux is well ready for the desktop if you can accept that it is its own Operating System, with its own niggles and that it is not a Xerox of the Windows Operating System.
I’ve been using GNU/Linux on my desktop for 5 years now and I have no reason to switch to anything else. If I can use it on the desktop almost anyone can.
The question is not if it is ready for the desktop, but if you are inclined to really use it on the desktop. A five day tinkertour of GNU/Linux will not give you an accurate picture of what the OS has in store.
Ahw, who cares anyways. Just use what makes you happy.
Its about time we start seeing what we really have, what’s working flawlessly and what’s just some thoughts and testcode.
When I see people commenting on features of Linux/OSS Desktop it doesn’t reflect my experience, I run hundreds of Microsoft Windows desktops, so I have a good feeling of how the situation is. Until lots of things are sorted out (maybee we’ll se that now?), enterprise(and home users I guess) will keep using Windows on desktops.
Sorry, but I don’t have the time to point out things that needs to be changed, but if you run large Windows networks(with Windows 2003+XP) you probably know how well it works.
Sorry, but I don’t have the time to point out things that needs to be changed
Then you are not an active interested party in “our” afair and GNU/Linux is not written with you in mind.
Quid pro quo.
Besides, your bread and butter lies with supporting Windows Solutions. You are not going to throw away your knowledge investment. So, as long as GNU/Linux doesn’t become the twin of Windows, GNU/Linux will be useless to you.
… is a good developer framework.
How will anyone develop applications and deploy linux desktops if one can’t even develop a simple application without having to read a ton of articles about libraries, dependencias, autoconf, automake, window managers, gtk and qt, etc etc, and then having to choose which technologies to use, knowing that users without them won’t be able to use their application.
Compare this with the tools available in MS Windows; my take is that Windows is so widely deployed because MS provides very good and integrated development tools, along with good and complete documentation.
Linux needs an unified, popularized and complete Software Development Environment and tools, that will enable developers to create applications that will work (this includes integrating nicely with the desktop) in any linux desktop.
“Compare this with the tools available in MS Windows; my take is that Windows is so widely deployed because MS provides very good and integrated development tools, along with good and complete documentation.”
Half true… but Microsoft is where it is mostly because of there monopolistics tactiks… the tools and documentation took time as well, and thanks to their reasources $$$ from their monopoly they can aford it…
There have been many operating systems from Amigas to BeOS… to NEXT… and Microsoft hindered their chances… even with the programing tools… (DrDOS)…
bla…
true we need some more interpolation with the diferent tools and apps… and better documentation… give a hand…
it is far better than how it was before… and progresing… fast…
-iMoron … sleepy… zzzz
It is not the year of the Linux desktop !
Next year is not going to be the year of the Linux desktop !
What about the year after ? Hmm, Nope.
You see, unless Linux can be easier to use for Joe User, then it cannot be a desktop system.
Emmmm, wait a sec……..
I have taken a few groups of people, (60 people altogether), who have had no previous experience with computers.
I set these people down with machines running Linux and Windows. The ones with Linux machines picked up the system quicker than the ones on Windows.
Like I said, I did this experiment a few times, and each time, Linux proved to be more user friendly an intuative for beginners than Windows did.
Now, this raises a few points.
1: Does all fanboys around here ignore my findings ?
2: Are you prepared to repeat the experiment ?
3: How is Linux not more widespread ?
The thing is this.. Windows users around here are set in their ways, they know how to things the Windows way, and that way is not always the right way. Show them something different, and that appears to be the wrong way.
My Findings;
“Linux is ready for the desktop, but You might not be ready for it !”
(c) 2005 Raver Thirty-One Esq
And where did you find these people “who have had no previous experience with computers”? Did you find them living in caves?
Everyone I know has used computers. Old people? Yep. Poor people? Yep. Everyone has different levels of experience… But none? Nope.
I think you’re lying. And even if you aren’t…
It also depends on how the system is setup. You can easily setup complicated Windows systems and simple Linux systems. And vice-versa.
“Windows users around here are set in their ways, they know how to things the Windows way, and that way is not always the right way. Show them something different, and that appears to be the wrong way.”
You just described a lot of Unix/Linux users in that same statement.
“Everyone I know has used computers.”
You don’t know much people, do you? Most people in the world haven’t even heard the word “computer” ever in their life.
“You don’t know much people, do you? Most people in the world haven’t even heard the word “computer” ever in their life.”
Pfft… Even small out of the way villages in Africa have supposedly been acquiring computers. (Slowly but surely)
There are numerous computer labs across the world that can be used for free. (Granted not available everywhere… But still)
NUMEROUS jobs require the use of a computer and have for years. So even if you don’t use one of recreation or for learning you still probably have had to use one for a job.
NUMEROUS stores (and a number of restaurants) here in the US have computers in them and that you need to use to do different things. So going shopping or eating in some cases requires the use of a computer.
As if this wasn’t enough. There are NUMEROUS projects in motion to produce cheaper computers so that every individual everywhere can have their own. (The $100 laptop is an example)
The number of people who haven’t used a computer or haven’t heard of a computer in the world is dropping like a rock.
While I’m sure you can still find people in out of the way places… (Like caves as I said earlier) I seriously doubt that raver31 went to one of these places and conducted his experiment. Most of these people have more important problems than the question of Linux vs Windows.
ROFLMAO. I know people who have problems READING and WRITING who own computers and have for years.
And even if he did manage to find someone. My other point applies. Like the fact that you can configure any OS in a number of different ways. Pfft! There’s so many different VERSIONS! Who cares about configuring them. He could have been using Windows 1.0 for all we know about his supposed experiment.
“Linux is ready for the desktop, but You might not be ready for it !”
This citation (including all its variants) is like the one that some kernel developer had in its signature, “If Linux doesn’t have the solution, then you have the wrong problem“. It’s witty and funny among nerds… but doesn’t really handle the issue!
When I encounter stability issues or broken features, is it really my fault? If GNOME doesn’t want to connect to a remote SSH/SMB share or Kmail doesn’t want to filter junk mail, should I blame myself? When I make a configuration error on my servers, I do. When it’s something that should be plug and play…
To be fair, there are some distros that got better QA than others. Furthermore, being a CE student interested in OSes, I can manage to find my way through configuration files or debugging to find out what went wrong. Yet, I wouldn’t blame my girlfriend if she cannot, even if she is interested in alternatives (being in social work, anti-monopolist & etc). Now, it would be a lie to say she doesn’t call me when MS Office is starting to screw up her work…
Snarky comments like “people are not ready for linux” misses the point that most people are using computers as tools. If the tool doesn’t work for you, should you change for the tool or just get a better one? Indeed, people are used to Windows and its quirks, but if you are going to persuade people from switching, it should be for the better, not for different quirks! In that aspect, I believe alternatives destkops are at the level of Windows, but they need to offer more to persuade people from changing. Joe User is lazy.
EDIT: Posted a bit too early!
Edited 2005-11-30 00:19
I agree, it is a bit of a nerdy statement, but you have taken it in the wrong context.
I meant it for everyone around here who will not even try to use Linux, purely because they believe the FUD that is going around. These people are in a Windows comfort zone.
You are correct in your assessment that Joe User is lazy. that is the whole point. They will not try another system, because they got one with the PC…
Now to that Anonymous Coward who accused me of lying…
In my spare time I am a computer trainer for underprivilaged teenagers. These kids have not tried computers before, for a few reasons…
Now the UK has a far lower poverty rate amongst its citizens than the US has, but there is still some people in the UK who do not have any access to computers.
I take these people and train them… hopefully, into finding a job.
First thing I do with them, is teach them how to navigate around a bog – standard system, Linux is always picked up easier.
Microsoft Office is a favourite with them over OpenOffice though, and a few have asked me to install Microsoft Office onto their Linux desktops.
Also, part of the course, is taking an empty box and getting a system up and running on it…. guess which one has everyone puzzled from the outset ? yep, Windows
So before you accuse people of lying, take a look at the world outside your own little bubble.
“So before you accuse people of lying, take a look at the world outside your own little bubble.”
Ahhh… Yes. Of course… You’re the ONLY person here to deal with the disadvantaged.
I don’t know all the details about the UK. But I do know that here in the US… There are… Free computers unofficially available to the poor. (Heck I know people who can’t afford gas or a phone who have computers) Elementary schools equipped with computers. Day care centers for both rich and poor kids equipped with computers. Need I go on?
And you accuse me of living in a bubble when you make statements like this:
“You are correct in your assessment that Joe User is lazy.”
You prove you know NOTHING about Joe User. Many Joe Users are very busy. Some work 2 or even 3 jobs. Some work and then come home and have to take care of the kids and house work while their significant other goes off to their job. When are they to find the time to learn how to use Linux?
Some are working on projects with deadlines which they aren’t convinced they are going to make to start with. So… They should switch midway or at the very beginning to something they are unfamiliar with and use Linux?
Some are working, going to school, and taking care of a family at the same time. They should learn Linux when they already have enough to do.
Some of these people have problems reading and writing. And yet they’re supposed to go pick up a book or read online documentation so that they can learn… Linux?
Need I go on?
Yep! You’re right! These people are lazy. I don’t know why I argue with you. They should stop sleeping, so that they can learn Linux and every other program you think they should be using. Yep. Absolutely. Those bums.
“First thing I do with them, is teach them how to navigate around a bog – standard system”
That doesn’t even remotely answer the question as you should know. Which version? Which distribution? All are a little different. Which “standard”? Microsoft’s which is stripped to the bone and no one actually uses? (All computer manufacturers make some small adjustments and all people who build their own make their own adjustments)
Also… Things often depend on how a person explains them. As a result its easy to taint such an experiment on purpose or by accident.
Oh… I forgot…
See… I don’t know about the entire world. BUT I have been seeing computers popping up in… Checkout lines for Walmart for people to use when they’re checking out. (They aren’t Windows or Linux, but they’re still computers) Mc Donalds (for placing orders) and numerous other places.
Those aren’t exactly… Ahem. High class locations you know.
Computers are spreading like the plague. While they may not literally be everywhere today. The number of people who literaly have not encountered any kind of computer is in fact dropping like a rock.
Did you actually read the original posts that I was replying to ?
I was saying that Joe User was lazy because he was finding out that Windows was having a plague of virus/spyware/trojans/ad-ware, but that he decided to carry on doing what he was doing.
That is lazyness and there is no excuse for it, and no defending it either.
I was not saying they should take time out of their own lives to learn Linux, in fact, I never even hinted that…. in fact I said the something completely different…
You see, unless Linux can be easier to use for Joe User, then it cannot be a desktop system.
I said that Linux should change for JoeUser, not the other way around.
Now, OSDL is calling together architects from over two-dozen key desktop-oriented Linux projects to a Dec. 1-2 meeting at its headquarters to set strategic directions and standards, and find synergies amongst Desktop Linux organizations.
Architects? Strategic decisions? Synergies ?? Ok, who let in the PHB ?
I really think the term “Linux Desktop” is strongly misleading. Persons saying that it is ready as well as the other believing in the opposite are both correct. (Doesn’t all Linux desktop run on other Unix like system?? – I don’t think it is a Linux war here)
– Desktop in the meaning of a strict desktop use, open Desktops are ready. It has all the application needed to get the job done effectively. It has office suites (not as good a MSOffice, especially for grammar correction), desktop candy, utility, etc.. Maybe it lacks an easy to use video chatting program and a phone/pda Bluetooth plugNplay sync program though.
– Desktop in the perspective of ease and convenience.
Here, we have to get out our high knowledge of computer to comment on this.
Open Desktops are quite behind on some level (some != all). Drivers are still hard to install compared to double click and reboot. Many specific binary distro just get the matter more complicated. I think NVidia did a good job for this. Anything else, you have to find your way around.
I know that package X for firewall and package Y for ftp and pack Z for that exists, but for global configuration, a feature rich desktop should have and centralize panel like the one on OSX (Not windows please), that simply configure what you want. Firewall, sharing, print and so on, without bothering you with anything.
Standardized game API. Here, land of freedom and wasted energy, anti-paying philosophy scared the games industry. Plus have fun to get your joystick working!
For a more widespread and enterprise use, it should also include a common easy to use scripting, easy high level programming layer. Not that there is none, but it have to be standardized and convenient for fast and easy use.
How to script a popup after and execution of a script?(just an example) perl, python, ruby, c, c++, ada, Eiffel, obj-c. Don’t even think to ask on forum, everyone will tell you why coding in X is bad. After that, should I use wxpython, pyqt, tcltk, and it goes on.
Give us standard, efficient and convenient scripting tools. Like VB.net, C#, vbscript, applescript. (Ok, I’ve just started a flamewar #1010001010011110). Glade/XRced + SPe + vi/emac + [what you want] are no candidate for this. They are surely good tools, but not as easy and convenient as visual basic or sharpdevelop can be. I not saying we should dynamite choices and the other options, but just give a strong frontline.
Seriously I think and wish that open Desktops would become a true solution. But people that are scared to any changes, even if it makes no limitation to the current solution, just make progress harder. To remove a powerful leader being equal is not enough, it need to be quite better.
Maybe because I wish change, means that Linux is not for me! [:^]
Dave Rosenberg, OSDL’s principal analyst, said, “There’s a huge amount of innovation going on in the Linux desktop, but there’s been no unified thread.”
The key word here is unified. A million distros, two major desktops = linux desktop going nowhere.
Slowly gaining market share != going nowhere.
Linux usage is increasing. Some people can’t wait, others like to play prophets of doom because Linux hasn’t dethroned Windows overnight. All of it is irrelevant: Linux and open desktops keep improving, and that’s what counts.
But it could be growing so much faster if the community sorted out proper packaging, lessened the bloat and had some form of consistent configuration. Stuff that CAN be done, but the splintered community doesn’t seem interested in.
These things are slowing Linux adoption down just as much as the lack of Photoshop and games, you know.
I strongly disagree, and a survey of Linux deployment in businesses tends to support my position:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS5481370522.html
From the survey:
Survey respondents indicated that they thought the main reason why users haven’t switched to Linux is that “application support must be available for new and existing non-open-source desktop applications and utilities such as VPN clients. In particular, Photoshop, PageMaker, AutoCAD and Quicken were mentioned as applications that users want to see on Linux,” according to the survey analysis.
No word in the survey about the bloat. I’m not even sure what you mean by bloat, to tell you the truth.
In any case, Linux IS improving, even in the areas you mention. Smart package managers and alternate installation methods (GUI installers, Autopackage, Klik, etc.) are making software management easier and more versatile. DEs such as KDE are getting lighter and faster with each new version (and have increasingly cleaner UIs as well).
As far as “consistent configuration” goes, that’s a new one to me. AFAIK, neither Windows nor OSX – or any OS, for that matter – can claim to have consistent configuration for all the apps that run on it.
As I said, Linux is growing. It could grow faster, but that’s not how it’s been evolving. It’s been doing great going at its own pace, and that’s not likely to change anytime soon.
I have tried many of the major distro’s in my epic search to replace windows (as you can tell, I’m still searching). Ther are flaws to both OSes, its just I have not found a Linux distro yet to fulfill my needs. Here is what I noticed:
1. File Trees and locations vary greatly from distro to distro…for example *.conf files are not always in the same directory between distros.
2. Software Installation! I can install Linux no problem, its the handeling of *.deb, *.rpm, *.bzip. It has been very difficult for me to install anything after the installing Linux (I blame this on my lack of experience). On Windows, almost all software has a relatively easy to use installer for most software.
3. Hardware Support! I am a gamer so I usually buy the latest and greatest hardware I can get my hands on. I have yet to find a distro that supports my PCI-E ATI Radeon X700 “OUT OF BOX” and some don’t even support my SATA Plextor DVD R/W drive.(If someone knows of a distro let me know). ATI is a popular video card maker, I expect an OS to be able to support their products as well as other popular hardware manufacturers.
4. Software and Games. This is a 2 way street. Not many companies will risk developing software for a “perceived” small user base and users will not switch to a system that does not support the software they WANT or NEED.
My point is Linux may be ready for the desktop for some people, but it is not at the point for me. I have tried many distros in the past 7 years I have been trying to find the one for me. I enjoy the fact that Linux is all about choice and freedom. This freedom has its price though.
Some of the things I think need to be implemented before Linux will be ready for everyone is:
1. A universal installer that works for all distros and all package types to easily install software with a few clicks of the mouse.
2. Greater hardware manufacturer involvement with the Linux community to add better support for newer and current hardware.
3. Compatability across all distros to include File trees of popular software packages. Also software packages should be non distro specific. I should be able to download any package and it should be able to install it using the same methods across all distros.
4. Demand and Assist software companies in porting their apps and games natively to Linux. This will both draw in more Linux users as well as more companies that support Linux. (Though I have not used it, I applaud Transgaming’s Cedega for brining popular games to Linux even though it is not native support)
Untill this happens, I (as well as many other users)am stuck with Windows.
I don’t want to sound cheeky… but leave the games for a minute and read the news now and again..
1. A universal installer that works for all distros and all package types to easily install software with a few clicks of the mouse. </1>
Already here in a couple of ways
http://www.autopackage.org/ is one solution
http://klik.atekon.de/ is another.. mainly for Debian systems
[i]2. Greater hardware manufacturer involvement with the Linux community to add better support for newer and current hardware.
I totally agree there, and the only thing you can do is bombard the companies with support requests. I had success with Compro, Lexmark and Freecom after getting in touch and telling them that I bought their gear, therefore I one of their customers who need support, and it is their obligation to provide that for me.
BUT more companies need to listen to the customers.
3. Compatability across all distros to include File trees of popular software packages. Also software packages should be non distro specific. I should be able to download any package and it should be able to install it using the same methods across all distros.
LSB = Linux Standards Base. This is exactly what you are looking for.
4. Demand and Assist software companies in porting their apps and games natively to Linux. This will both draw in more Linux users as well as more companies that support Linux. (Though I have not used it, I applaud Transgaming’s Cedega for brining popular games to Linux even though it is not native support)
I am a subscriber to Transgaming, and the point2play software is amazing. Start that, find the setup program for the game and it does it all, then leaves an icon. It can be set up so that each game appears to be in a sandbox away from all other games.
You said not natively ? Don’t matter. It is usually just the loader programs that are Windows specific. Almost all games run as if they are on Windows, some perform much better under Linux. Cedega has a CVS version for you to see for yourself before you pay money.
PLUS…
being Linux, there is another way….
http://www.liflg.org/?catid=6 is the Loki installer page.
Here you can select a native Linux loader for your Windows games, and it will let you install them without using any other programs.
I just wanted to congratulate you for presenting your case in an intelligent, non-inflammatory and articulate manner.
Your concerns are quite legitimate. Some are being adressed, some are a bit more complex.
1. Some distros do put files in different places. The LSB (Linux Standards Base) should help, but this is something that will take a while to sort out due to the nature of free software (freedom often being anarchic).
2. You should check out such programs as Synaptic, which is available for most distros (even RPM-based ones), which can greatly simplify the installation of new packages.
BTW, it is important to make a distinction between system software, which greatly benefits from package managers, and commercial applications (which for legal reasons cannot be included in repositories).
3. You can download the ATI installer from ATI’s web site. The reason it cannot work “out-of-the-box” is that it is a proprietary driver and this could make redistribution of the installation discs more complicated.
That said, the ATI installer works very well, just like the NVIDIA one (the ATI installer having the advantage of a GUI mode).
4. I work for a game developer, and the fact is that even the “normal” (i.e. Windows) game market is very risky financially (compared to console games). That’s why there are fewer PC game companies now than there used to be, and why most new games come out on consoles, with PC ports an afterthought. Sure, there are some big players left (Bioware, Id, Epyx, Blizzard and Microsoft) but the PC gaming scene is currently in decline, which does not bode well for Linux gaming (or Mac gaming, for that matter).
You mention Cedega, which is an acceptable solution for some, but they keep trying to hit a moving target (DirectX) and add new games to their list which means they often break stuff…
So, yes, there is room for improvement, and Linux may not be ready for you yet (it is for me, but then again I play console games…). I suggest you keep checking it out from time to time until it is, and to keep your great open-minded attitude towards it.
Until then, happy computing!
< BTW, it is important to make a distinction between system software, which greatly benefits from package managers, and commercial applications (which for legal reasons cannot be included in repositories). >
I’d like to extend this a bit further and say that a distinction should be made between system software (the base system, things like ALSA, server software) and 3rd party applications, open license or not (GIMP, RealPlayer, Firefox). Package managers are pretty good at handling system software, but are, in my opinion, a terrible solution for 3rd party software. Something like AppDirs, Klik, and PBI are a better solution.
Of course, therin lies the problem: There are so many ways to do things differently on a Linux system. There is (aparently) no widely accepted standard for 3rd part app developers to target (LSB is close, but sorta screwed the pooch in a few ways [RPMs ffs!]). There needs to be a consistant set of standard libraries and software that a developer can depend on, and anything else they need can just be bundled in the cmg/AppDir/PBI. Since the bundled libraries aren’t part of the system, only the 3rd party app uses it and so it shouldn’t break anything no matter what version is used. And since cmg/AppDir/PBI are self contained, it is trivial to remove the software without breaking anything.
I use Linux (RH7-RH9 then Slack 8-10.2) for more than 5 years. And I mean it. Is true that what I did was development only (C/CPP and then Java) and I did not experienced any problem (well some were but so minor that I even forgot what they really were).
How can be that for me (at the time a junior developer) Linux on my desktop was not a problem at all? Because I gave it mor than 10 minutes before judging. Mind you, I was using mc to navigate and not a fancy file manager. Yes, it was … something. Coming from the MacOS (7-9) and Windows, yes that was a bit of a shock. All I wanted was to see with my own eyes why our sysadmin praised this OS. And why was he using it everyday. Now I know. I am not saying that I ruled out Windows/OSX from my computing life. Heck, I still play games , so I need Windows. I like Sony DVD Architect and my TV Tuner card doesn’t not work (yet) with my Slack. Question is,again, how much time I spend doing these? 2 hours in a week? If I have time, of course!
Stay at least few months with an OS before writing such articles. Not only you can get some credibility but you also got to know the very weak points of such a system.
Oh, and one more thing. People argue that some conf files are not in the same directories among various distros. Why the heck don’t you stay with one distro then? And moreover, it is a trend nowadays that various distros make this process easier using GUI tools. How many really touch these config/ini files in Windows? Because they do exist.See? You do take some time when you switch from OSX to Windows and the other way around. Why should it be different when you switch Linux distributions?
Edited 2005-11-30 07:57
Thoughs of you who are STILL unable to grasp why Linux is ready for the desktop market, i,ve put some simple ways of why Linux is easy. Even screenshots for all you simple people.
Insert a blank cd
http://suseux.commscentral.net:8000/insert-disk.png
Manage drives and media
http://suseux.commscentral.net:8000/GVM.png
Add a printer
http://suseux.commscentral.net:8000/GCM.png
View my drives
http://suseux.commscentral.net:8000/media.png
Also what are the requierments for being desktop ready?, because Linux can do simple tasks easy. People base Linux not being ready for the desktop market based on there Windows experience, which is flawed.
It is true that Linux in general lacks standardization, that there are differences in file locations, etc., however, after having used Linux for a whole year as my main desktop I have been able to see numerous advantages and non-issues with this.
-The problem of standard software packages is a non-issue on up-to-date distros. A centralized, ample repository will bring the latest software, and this is an area where I simply don’t see any advantage whatsoever from Windows. Sure, some people don’t like apt or yum or whatever, but frankly, installation of individual packages on windows is garbage in comparison.
You cannot upgrade an entire system with just a couple of commands in windows, and the issue of library and binary compatibility is still there. Of course it doesn’t arise as frequently, but the difference is that , on Linux, if you have such problem, you can work around it. Not so with Windows.
-Lack of standard folder locations: please! How much of the stuff that you have to deal with is stored in some esoteric location? If it’s not in $HOME, it’s in /etc/, and if it’s not there, then chances are you shouldn’t even be touching it by hand if it was installed through a package manager, and if you installed it yourself it should probably be in /opt. File locations are extremely standard, and the problems such variations cause can generally be solved with a symlink or such.
You try installing Windows in a non-standard location. I’ve had software there break because of library locations, patched dlls, etc. Try reinstalling Windows and see if all your software still comes back to life. I know it hasn’t many times. And again, although such problems do appear on Linux more often, they can be worked around. Windows leaves you there on your own.
-Lack of software: that IS an issue, generally, and this is where the the right tool might not be Linux, and that’s fine. However lots of ISVs provide solutions in this area. You just have to look in the right places.
-Administration: I’d say a Linux admin would differ on Windows admins about it’s manageability. Let’s just say that on Linux (or Unixes) you can replace running libraries and things won’t crap up. Windows has to work around that with automatic patch rollback.
Don’t get me wrong, I still need my Windows every once in a while. Just don’t make issues out of things that you think are issues simply because you’re not knowledgeable yet. I know the solutions to there problems in Windows, but mostly because i’ve been using it for so long.
People moan about Linux standardization but Windows is backwards even more.
New user
Where are my pictures kept?
Me
On the C: drive where everything is kept.
New user
Whats the C: drive and where is it?
Me
In my computer.
New user
Ok i’ll look for them.
New user
Hey, I though you said my pictures were on the c: drive?
Me
They are yes.
New user
No they are not, I cannot find them.
Me
Yes they are, your not looking in the right place then.
New user
But you said they are on the C: drive in my computer.
Me
Yes thats right they are.
New user
but when I click on C: drive I cannot find where I put all my pictures, there is no my pictures folder.
Me
The my pictures folder is in the my documents folder.
New user
I dont have any documents, why is my pictures in my documents?
Me
Becuase it’s, well, non stardardized.
New user
Is there a easier way.
Me
Yes in the start menu
Yes linux is easy to INSTALL
Yes linux is easy to USE
Yes linux is more STABLE than windows (impressive
)
Yes linux is on TOP TECHNOLOGIE LEVEL
but …
It needs :
– STANDARDS !!! For god sake stop egocentrism and start a base like a kind of universal mini init 3 ( sa you can see this term “init” is different from distros to distros !! Well done on debian X is started and on most other not … ) That did not mean end of diversity but a little base in common where company can make base packages like drivers … servers …
– ALL OF YOU linux guys stop telling my distro is better than the other … but what is better in other distro that I can merge in my distro !
– PACKAGES : not rpm / deb / tar.gz / src … but a kind of unified package like Klick / or stuff on PC-BSD, today PC are shipped with tons of giga so what the point of circle dependancies …
– KISS : Keep It Simple Stupid, you know what I mean !?
Otherwise don’t expect much than 5-7% market share and maybe less !!
If ther’s plenty of linux users, stuf like difficulties to read DVDs … will be no more …
Why bother with this stupid standard crap when the distro has all the software the person needs. It’s not like Windows where you have to goto Download.com and get software.
Standards hey?, like zip, rar, ace, cab, did I miss any? what about Windows codecs! since you need a friggin load of different onces and players to view them. So dont talk to me about linux needs standardizing.
I truly would like to switch to an open source operating system such as Linux but for me it is all about the GUI. Having used computers for the past 19 years I have seen a great deal of change. While there are a lot of strong arguments on the varied fronts of OS choice many of them simply don’t apply to me.
As far as hardware driver hell goes, if you are not prepared to deal with this, I suggest you choose an Apple computer system and be satisfied with any other limitations that you may be confronted with. Another choice (and a lesser alternative) may be to buy a PC from a manufacturer that have proprietary hardware such as HP, Dell etc. and when adding peripherals, stay with your brand and the OS that come installed with it.
Poorly written drivers unfortunately are common on any OS’s that run IBM PC’s however but, for the most part, if you choose good quality generic parts you’ll have less of a problem. Debian based distro’s find my hardware on installation/boot a good 99% of the time and I personalty have no great problem configuring the rest because I do a little research before I buy a peripheral device to make sure of it’s support/compatibility with Linux on that machine as I think ahead as I may choose to run Linux on that machine at some point. Expecting Linux to automatically find and configure ALL hardware is both naive and insane.
I have chosen to assemble my own generic PC’s since 1995 as it allows me the greatest amount of freedom – I wouldn’t even consider buying a pre-manufactured computer but then I took the time to learn how to do it on my own. I realize this is not an option for the majority of users and for these people, buying a computer pre configured with a Linux OS is still not widely availably.
That said, most common hardware IS supported in the latest Linux kernels and it is much less a problem than it used to be.
As far as software goes, anyone who has never had a problem with the installation a non-malicious program on the Windows platform simply has a very limited experience. This has happened to me numerous times over the years. Nothing can help you from poorly written applications. Some of Symantic’s applications have screwed up some of my Windows installations so many times that I refuse to buy or use anything from them any more.
Software that allows the user to do the vast majority of work that can be done on a PC (and for the vast amount of users) has been created for the Linux platform and a lot of it is very high quality – you just need to take the time to acclimate your self to using it.
Further more, again, Debian based distros and particularly Ubuntu/Kubuntu have an ever expanding plethora of applications that are available through apt-get/Synaptic and not one of them will screw up your install so long as you stay with the stable repositories. So, this argument is blown way out of proportion.
I have gotten Wine to run quite a few Windows apps that I like just fine. In fact, it runs some of my favorite old DOS apps quite admirablely – something that is not so easily done on Win 2k/XP.
So, for me, the software show stoppers are nonexistent.
The show stopper for me is that I am more or less what you would call a “power user”. I require the freedom to set up my desktop and GUI in a way that is specific to my wants and needs. OSX, while being a very fine example of a user friendly desktop environment is simply unacceptable to me because it is also very limited in how it may be customized to my personal usage requirements.
Two and a half years ago I happened across an alternative shell for Windows that eventually turned into what is now known as “bbLean”, a variant of the Blackbox for Windows Shell. Although it gets it’s “look” from the Blackbox Wm from ‘nix, it is far more evolved than any desktop environment I have ever used on any platform.
For instance, instead of digging through a mile long Start Menu or scouring a hundred icons on my desktop every time I wish to preform a task, I can set up custom specific menus to groups of related tasks that can be called hot keys and appear at my cursor position giving me instant availability. But this is just scratching the surface.
Built into the core of the shell is something called “broadcast messaging”. Similar in concept to “KDOM” in KDE, “Bro@ms” exist for common OS related tasks in the core of the shell and an SDK/API is available that gives plugin writers the ability to advent their own bro@ms to message the core, other plugins and even the hardware attached to the machine.
The difference in KDOM and bro@ms is that they are very easily implemented by the common user and have a small learning curve.
Of the many plugins that exist to customize a users desktop, one in particular, named “bbInterface” takes the use of bro@ms to the extreme by using them in the form of a scripting language that can create: frames, labels, buttons, switch buttons and sliders (mostly used to access the soundcard mixer).
Most users can learn how to use this interface builder (the basics anyway) in a matter of 2-3 days. And if your more familiar with more common scripting languages you can extend it to do more complicated things via the bbTLC plugin.
Now, you may argue that suites like Desktop-X can do a lot of this but I beg to differ. For one thing, Desktop-X and similar environments are very much resource hogs while the BB4Win environment has a very impact on resources (unless you start turning on transparency features). So much so that I have absolutely no problem setting up an environment on a PII 200 mhz with 85 meg of RAM. The BB4Win shells are based on a “minimalist” paradigm – you have the choice of creating a desktop environment for your self that is as minimal or intricate as you like.
Before you label this post as spam or fan boy for a shell you need to understand that I am not posting this to convince you to try this shell – you may find that it’s looks do not meet your aesthetic tastes, there are issues with certain programs and some Windows functionality is lost when using an alternative shell in Windows.
What I am getting at is that this is innovative stuff, it puts the choices about the user interface squarely in the hands of the user and does so without a lot of overhead.
While the Blackbox/Fluxbox WM’s on ‘nix provide minimalistic environments, customizing and extending them is haphazard, clumsy and down right ugly because what is available is mostly GTK-Gnome/KDE based and are incongruent with a common look and feel. On top of this there is no SDK/API for third party developers to build on in an easy fashion. Not to mention there is no broadcast messaging available to implement a simple user scripting method of personal customization.
In summery, for an OS that expounds the theme “It’s about freedom, it’s about choice”, I would say that giving me a choice of resource intensive Gnome/KDE or uber minimal WM’s or even light weight WM’s such as XFCE isn’t really much choice.
The Linux desktop needs a desktop environment that is truly innovative, cutting edge rather than approaches to the desktop that are based on a paradigm that can be likened to a school girls envy of a rock star that drives her to dress up like her fav.
And if you think I am going to give up my custom menus for some single menu system or even a toolbar with multi-pulldown menus – you have lost your marbles.
It’s about the GUI stupid!
<Further more, again, Debian based distros and particularly Ubuntu/Kubuntu have an ever expanding plethora of applications that are available through apt-get/Synaptic and not one of them will screw up your install so long as you stay with the stable repositories. So, this argument is blown way out of proportion. >
Thats not entirely true. I’ve managed to break apt using only official stable repositories (admittedly, this is very rare). Besides which, the whole problem with stable repositories is that they typically have old versions of software, meaning I have to resort to unstable repositories and risk damaging my install, or compile from source (which I’d still pretty much be forced to do for any software that isn’t in the repository). It is rediculous that anyone should have to be some kind of expert to install the newest version of an app, or wait forever for it to hit the stable repository.
Something is going wrong with linux as desktop. I do not know what. Showing nice screenshots or saying “I am running linux for n years” do not help.. I regularly visit French, German and English forums. Always the same and regularly problems. I visited the Ubuntu French forumI five minutes ago, already 17 posts from people not being able to install. No boot, no mouse, incorrect screen resolutions, and so on. Not beeing able to install an application is one thing, but most people have problem installing a minimal core linux.
Yesterday, I install win XP on an old machine, just to see the beast (I’m a win2k user). It was quite long, one and half hour, but perfectcly working without having any single problem. I will not keep XP, but I took the oppotunity to test some applications I wrote under win 98 and win 2k. No problem.
Why is everything so complicated with linux?
Why did I get loads of calls on tech support asking how the hell do they install there printer/scanner, it’s not working. Windows is just as bad since alot of people come to Linux because they are sick of the bad stability of Windows. You also missed out the installing your drivers, updates, reboots and applications, i’d say your looking at 3 hours and average joe would’nt have a clue.
Edited 2005-11-30 16:03
I did not say windows is a jewel. I’am simply saying I succeed to install windows and do not succeed to install Linux. No more no less. I’m just in the same situations as probably thousands linux newbies. On one side, I have a working system, on the other side a not booting system.
I visited the Ubuntu French forumI five minutes ago, already 17 posts from people not being able to install. No boot, no mouse, incorrect screen resolutions, and so on. Not beeing able to install an application is one thing, but most people have problem installing a minimal core linux.
Uh, just because 17 people have problems installing Ubuntu on the forums doesn’t mean that “most people” (that means the majority) have problem installing a minimal core Linux.
In fact, a minimal core Linux install is pretty easy to achieve, it will succeed more often than not. Here’s a tip: download a LiveCD of your distro (most of them have them now) and test the PC with the LiveCD. If the LiveCD works, then the install should work.
In my experience, most people can in fact successfully install Linux on their system.
Browser: ELinks/0.10.6 (textmode; Linux 2.6.13-ARCH i686; 143×53-2)
At least you get to know linux well after using it for some time. In windows even after using it for years I would run into problems. And then I had to go find which wizard was the right one for the task, but the wizard doesn’t say anything clearly as not to overwhelm a “joe user”… To me windows is really complicated to configure, it makes absolutely no sense in so many ways. Just try to explain to someone where he has to click click click.
It’s easier to say open the terminal, type su, type nano /etc/config , write blabla , save, close.
This way I find also that for linux it’s much easier to find good help online, as it’s much faster to explain much things for linux.
I mean, last month I had to set a xp computer to be internet gateway for a linux computer. And I had to spend quite a lot of time just to find where the stupid button was that I had to click on.
In linux I just remember which text file it was (amazing how fast you remember stuff like that) and change it to what I want.
Ofcourse, I do have a wishlist for changes in linux (as I do have for any os, there’s no real good 1), but for me the system is much easier then windows. For example debian on my p1, I installed it 2 years ago and I didn’t have to anything with it anymore, just apt-get update && apt-get upgrade once and a while. There was windows on it before, and I can say it took me at least ten times more time to keep windows running.
But ofcourse it’s only my point of view and it doesn’t really matter what you use as long as you’re happy with it
That doesn’t even remotely answer the question as you should know. Which version? Which distribution? All are a little different.
That’s irrelevant. What matters is the Desktop Environment. KDE and Gnome pretty much identical on every Linux distros, and other *nix systems for that matter. Once you’ve learned how to use KDE or Gnome – which is trivial if you already know how to use Windows or Mac – you’re all set.
The people who’d have trouble adjusting are not the Joe Users of the world – they’ll find out how to send e-mail or navigate the web easily enough. The users who’ll have a hard time are Windows power users who are already used to their way of doing and controlling the U.S.
Don’t underestimate Joe User’s capability to learn new thing. He’s not stupid, and he’s not so deep-set in his ways that he’ll view any new way of doing things with hostility, like some power users are.
“That’s irrelevant. What matters is the Desktop Environment. KDE and Gnome pretty much identical on every Linux distros, and other *nix systems for that matter.”
It’s pretty much identical yes. But the little details can throw off a number of users. I know because I myself teach people how to use computers. It’s amazing. With some users you can switch them from Firefox to IE (or vice-versa) and some of them become confused to the point that they won’t do anything besides stare at the screen with a blank expression, will just flat out announce that they give up, or will somehow manage to do the wrong thing.
Now… This is obviously not true for all users. I used Fixefox just fine from day 1. I’m also using it right now.
“The people who’d have trouble adjusting are not the Joe Users of the world – they’ll find out how to send e-mail or navigate the web easily enough. The users who’ll have a hard time are Windows power users who are already used to their way of doing and controlling the U.S.”
Agreed. But in some cases, it’s not that they aren’t “set in their ways”, it’s that they are busy and know how to do it with Windows. How long will it take them to figure out how to do it with Linux? Pretty quickly? Maybe worth a shot. All day? Hmmm… But this may be a rush job and the deadline IS the end of the day. All month? 3 months?
“Don’t underestimate Joe User’s capability to learn new thing. He’s not stupid, and he’s not so deep-set in his ways that he’ll view any new way of doing things with hostility, like some power users are.”
It varies from one user to another. Some are quiet slow. Others are very set in their ways. However… It is true that there are people who aren’t either those. However, as I said before. Some people are busy.
A number of users are quite busy. raver31 says they’re lazy. Grnted… Some people are lazy. Some people are aroogant too. There’s a whole wide range of people. My point was.. That they are not necesarily lazy simply because they won’t learn Linux and use Windows instead.
Just because the United States is dominated by windows does not mean the rest of the world is using windows. A lot of code is being written overseas. Plus, the price of windows is too high for many people in other countries.
So many countries are switching to linux in the near future according to the news, such as: Germany, South American countires, and Asian countires.
A lot of kernel code is written over in India but anymore these days. What part of the MS OS is not written in India.
The linux desktop continues to polish itself. As linux gets easier and easier to use. More people will adopt it.