Very few IT-companies get as much fanatic anticipation from their customers as Apple does. Lots of words have been written about that, including cheers, rants and advice as to what Apple should do next to make the Macintosh experience even nicer for its fans. Whether it’s about product pricing, quality or all in all product range, Apple polarizes its users and those who wish they were. It would be foolish for me to take the same approach as anybody else and give Apple some piece of advice. So that’s actually what I’m going to do now.Editorial Notice: All opinions are those of the author and not necessarily those of osnews.com
The story begins about one and a half years ago. I had read a lot about all this – I had seen the fan-pages, read the critical comments about Apple’s product politics, about Apple soon filing for bankrupcy and heard the voices of those who would fight for Apple if they had to. And of course about those few who would rather stop using computers than “switching” to the Mac. But I didn’t care. After just having bought a brand new, lightning fast PC running Windows XP I wanted to jump right into the cold water and use a Mac myself for some time. So I bought a 12″ iBook, which I was going to sell on ebay soon after without a big financial loss. Two weeks later I handed the box with the XP-machine to its new owner and have been a happy guy ever since. I also added an iPod, a G4-iMac and a new iBook to my portfolio.
BUT!
I’m kind of a nerd. I like new stuff, I like different stuff. When I see a new machine, I like going to a store and touch it, feel the keyboard’s grip, open the lid and smell the scent of a fresh computer. I find slim notebook computers to be really sexy and owning one is a need in my life. What I don’t like is that my personal hardware computing experience depends 100% on one company: Apple. Whatever they do, I have to like it. While there is a lot of OS X software from different companies out there, all the hardware comes from Cupertino.
So I say: that’s what keeps a lot of people from switching. They’re human beings, most of them are used to the big advantage of the free market world: freedom of choice. They don’t want to give that up. And they’re right! I would like to have more choice – even if it was just to have it. Today Powerbooks may be the nicest laptops one can find but tomorrow I might feel like getting an IBM Thinkpad. Or a Toshiba. Or whatever I feel like!
So what do I want? Here’s my very own advice to Steve Jobs and I feel kind of stupid writing this. So many people have done this and I always thought: “get over it, he knows better anyway”. But I still want to give that advice: bring OS X and all the cool Apple applications to a broader range of hardware! You can do it using “Marklar”, the supposedly existing OS X port to the Intel platform and thus all other 98% of the computers in the world.
But as Apple has repeatedly pointed out, the future is portable. So alternatively I’d get IBM, Toshiba and as many other portable hardware vendors as possible to sell their machines in a PowerPC version with OS X pre-installed. IBM makes iSeries notebooks, it can’t be that hard to make PowerPC notebooks. Widen the choice! The more, the better! You can still sell the coolest laptops around but then people can actually chose to get “an Apple”.
Apple’s uniqueness, for me, comes from software quality. When you use it, you notice those many little aspects that have been carefully thought about. I love that! When you use Windows, you notice consistency – consistently hard to use, buggy and bloated programs. Apple has a chance of getting big in the worldwide computer market as many people are willing to pay more for quality software. But only if they have the choice of hardware that they simply don’t want to give up.
While I don’t really think Mr. Jobs will read this, I felt I had to say this. This story was custom built for OSNews.com and is meant as a “YARP”: Yet Another Rant Provoker. Hit it!
About the author:
Nico has been using computers as a semi-nerd for nearly 15 years. His pilgrimage led him from MS-DOS over Windows 3 to 95, OS/2, Windows NT to XP, BeOS and Linux to Mac OS X where he’s stuck right now, happier than ever. Nico is an IT manager in Bavaria, Europe.
Hmm, I don’t know, I think that Apple would be dead, if it had macosx running on clone commodity hardware. That is, I don’t see commercial desktop operating systems other than Windows that are successfull. OS/2 Warp died, Beos died. And would MS keep developing Office for macosx, if it runs on clone-hardware?
as a processor but they better not use PC architecture, that way they continue to make money on proprietary hardware and remove the MHz argument once and for all.
if they were to go to a more open hardware environment you can kiss their software advantage goodbye. Support would be a nightmare for them and true plug-and-playing will be flaky. There’s an issue with quality control that Apple would have no say in. Just like everyone blame MS for having a troubled OS Apple’s OS will be ridiculed just as much. Apple’s advantage is that they have complete control over their entire environment. For better or for worse this is the path they seem willing to take.
Does anyone know if Apple’s OSs Make them money? Are they a profit, or a loss?
I would love to see clones again (he says as he looks over at his old PowerCenter 150 which is less than 50% original parts), but even if Apple returned to making clones I doubt that they would allow CloneBooks (since they make bigger margins, and their sales are still going up, up, up).
But now that I think of it, what is really stopping clones? You no longer have to license Apple’s ROM since OpenFirmware is, well, open, so you should be able to do a complete mac. Or you can do it the easy way http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/5579129.htm
There is a big difference between doing what is best for a single user today and doing what is best for Apple in the long run. This article (such as it is) is written from the perspective of a single user. That’s great. But when discussing Apple strategy some thought out to be given to what might benefit (or hurt) Apple. Why people keep ignoring this aspect of it is beyond me. It shouldn’t take an MBA to understand this simple fact of business.
We’ve been through this sooo many times. Apple will not go x86. Yes they could put in some proprietary chips to avoid getting people running OS X on their Toshiba, Dell or other Wintel clone, but how long do you think it would be before it got emulated or in some way circumvented? Weeks? Days? The only thing you can guarantee is that it would happen and quickly. This would basically be sticking a big sign saying hack me on the cover of every computer they sold.
If the author of the article is talking about expanding the range of laptops on sale then that is more sensible. It makes sense on the surface at least, but you have to remember that inventory control is NOT Apples forte. How many times in the past have they massively over estimated demand and then had to simply dump loads of machines they couldn’t sell. One of Steve Job’s first things to try and get Apple out of the financial s**t it was in when he joined was to slash the number of models they sold. More choice could be good but they would have to be more careful than in the past.
If you are going to propose this ridiculous flame-provoking debate, you must first answer one questions…
NOT how is Apple going to profit and stay alive (they made $155 million in revenue off of software and $1,317 million in revenue on hardware in the last quarter, by the way) BUT….
Who the HELL is going to want to license and manufacturer Apple clones? Who? Hmm? Who?
If you can answer this question, you can bring up this ridiculous notion. Until then, go to f’in business school or something.
(I am an Apple fan by the way.)
Because they sell software to so few people relatively. If the OS was wold to more than 2.7% of people out there the ratio’s would change dramatically. Software production is a fixed cost. The cost of media is negligable. Get it up to 10% of market share and see where Apple’s Average Total Cost would be.
But now that I think of it, what is really stopping clones? You no longer have to license Apple’s ROM since OpenFirmware is, well, open, so you should be able to do a complete mac.
Apple’s EULA forbids the use of Mac OS on non-Apple hardware. That stops clones, at least public advertising of them anyway (a la AmigaOne, which runs MacOS through Mac-On-Linux, but doesn’t advertise itself as such).
>> I think that Apple would be dead, if it had macosx running on clone commodity hardware.
>>
Apple is already dieing gradually anyway, their “PC” market has been consistently dwindling, even with all the sexy machines they’ve been making.
Would I love to run OS X? Definitely. But only if it was cheaper, and if I could run a variety of hard/software on it. Their PC business can only go up if they go intel.
If you do the math using the numbers from last quarter, that would bring software sales to 775 million. Still almost half of the hardware sales (1,317)… And you haven’t explained how you are replacing lost hardware sales… And you haven’t explained how clones will allow Apple to grow their marketshare 500%.
part of the plus of OS X is that they don’t need an HCL as long as the Canterbury Tales. What makes XP unstable is bad drivers or unsupported hardware. As soon as Mac opens that doorway – they suddenly have a lot of work to do.
Also, “Marklar” would probably not use all the same hardware that Windows can. In fact, the x86 architecture is not all instantly compatible. Apple could make only certain x86 chips – hell, even a specific brand or socket or slot or new kind of chip – run OS X Marklar. It’s VERY unlikely you’ll see OS X run on all the hardware Windows does.
To the author: You need to do a little research into what Marklar is and what x86 means.
My guess is that if Marklar even sees the light of day – you’ll still be buying hardware from Apple, it will just happen to be X86 based.
dont make apple clone hardware. that would get messy. just release an x86 version for that works on any pc box like windows. if marklar does truely exist, they are prob more than halfway there already. i’d switch in a second. its clearly a better OS, the hardware is just too expensive… when will apple get this.
Apple is developing office software, internet browsers and building up its arsenal to block every advantage that MS has over it. This is admirable. OSX is a great OS and when apple is ready, it can release that trump card it is holding (OSX for pc hardware) and bump MS off its perch once and for all. I know I and many frustrated windows users would gladly flock over to OSX if the price/performance ratio finally tilts towards Apple. MS grew from being a software company marketing an OS that works, Apple could be easily be their replacement if they have all the bases covered.
Bavaria, EUROPE ?????
That’s like saying I’m from Paris, Europe or New York, North America. Let’s get with it guys. Bavaria can be found in the country of …….?
(Please fill in the blank)
1. What good is Apple’s Hardware Revenue if they continue to lose users? If the market share continues to shrink like it does, there won’t be any revenue soon.
2. If other vendors sell OS X compatible hardware, Apple will be able to profit from every of those sales if they’re clever. Which they are as long as Steve Jobs is there.
3. With an enhanced market share (even if it doesn’t grow 500%), they’ll sell more of their software and they’ll be able to sell more stuff like iPods , music downloads (soon!) and maybe an Office suite.
4. Why would Marklar exist if there were absolutely no chance of it being used? Why would Apple work with AMD (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/30372.html) ? Tell me WHY is there no chance for OS X x86? Driver problems? No! I’m not talking about supporting every ten year old Dell machine out there but a few nice machines, mainly Laptops.
apple is not dropping its dependancies (depends how you define dependancies to begin with), they’ve always had good-enough comsumer tools (appleworks, hypercard, cyberdog, imovie, itunes, etc) and pro-grade software like finalcut pro and shakes was not developped by them (extended, remodeled, etc, but not created; nor was safari, or imovie or itunes). they are simply not going to ever surpass microsoft in office software, but they’re working (somewhat hard, not as hard as you think though) at providing alternative. switching to a bsd core opened up a whole new realm for users, granting access to a lot more apps and open-source stuff. their ‘switch’ has given them what they had been lacking for years, exposure, -serious- exposure (not just mockery, or for their ‘funny’ shape), they’re not just for the niched customers anymore (schools, graphic/industrial design, etc).
as for this guy’s article, it’s so tiresome to be presented with amateur-grade articles that have a better “about the author” line than actual content.
… the land of beer. Oktoberfest. Lederhosen. Happens to be part of Germany. But I guess I feel more Bavarian and European than German. Is that evil? Anybody who feels like flaming, please do so via email, thanks!
>1. What good is Apple’s Hardware Revenue if they continue to lose users? If the market share continues to shrink like it does, there won’t be any revenue soon.
that’s hardly convincing, given the current state of any computer company out there; Apple is gaining ground by the press it’s getting, new users, etc, but there’s no point in expecting them to topple Intel or Dell, that’s never going to happen.
>3. With an enhanced market share (even if it doesn’t grow 500%), they’ll sell more of their software and they’ll be able to sell more stuff like iPods , music downloads (soon!) and maybe an Office suite.
Office suite? Geez, just like most people, you forget they already have one, it’s called AppleWorks, and Apple is not going to bother to try to take a bite out of MS-Office’s market share. But I’m pleasantly surprised by the iPod’s success, I know many Win-fellows who have one and they love the darn thing, there’s definitely something worthwhile there (agreed on the online music thing too).
As a regular reader of OSNews and a former reader of OSOpinion, I’m curious why this site has been sliding towards an opinion site vs a news site?
I stopped reading OSOpinion because the same old soapboxes were brought out all the time with very little purpose.
Obviously the people who put the hard work into this site can do whatever they want with it. And I do appreciate how much work they must put into it. But the site’s title advertises News but much of the content no longer applies.
Regards,
Steve
I’m not so sure that what keeps people from switching is lack of hardware freedom of choice. Before that I would put: (1) fear of lack of incompatibility with the rest of the computing world; and (2) price. As to price, it’s not that macs are overpriced. They are better designed and a lot more thought and effort goes into the user experience, but such thought and effort simply costs money. In any market, there are going to be a larger number of people that want to buy something cheaper that is “good enough” or looks the “same” in superificial ways. That’s just marketing reality.
That’s not to say more people wouldn’t buy macs at the same price (compatibility fears notwithstanding) if there was “choice” in hardware. But as others point out, providing such choice would take away key parts of the advantages apple has that allow it to provide a better product. Fewer glitches is just part of the story. Lose control of the hardware and you become dependent on others to implement things that apple can now just put in – like firewire, bluetooth, wireless networking. Apple can move faster and better in implementing new things because it controls the hardware and software. It can put in the hardware, the OS hooks and write the app to accomplish something new (like consumer video editing in 1998). Nobody else can do this.
Even though I’m supporting the thought of Apple releasing
a version for x86 I don’t agree with bumping MS off its perch once and for all. I can’t afford a dual G4 1.42 right now, so I don’t even want to think about Apple being the Monopoly.
IMO do it like SUN. Release an opensource or free version for x86 with no support. And if you want to have the full deal buy a MAC. Market share will come eventually.
I’m not so sure that what keeps people from switching is lack of hardware freedom of choice. Before that I would put: (1) fear of lack of incompatibility with the rest of the computing world; and (2) price. As to price, it’s not that macs are overpriced. They are better designed and a lot more thought and effort goes into the user experience, but such thought and effort simply costs money. In any market, there are going to be a larger number of people that want to buy something cheaper that is “good enough” or looks the “same” in superificial ways. That’s just marketing reality.
That’s not to say more people wouldn’t buy macs at the same price (compatibility fears notwithstanding) if there was “choice” in hardware. But as others point out, providing such choice would take away key parts of the advantages apple has that allow it to provide a better product. Fewer glitches is just part of the story. Lose control of the hardware and you become dependent on others to implement things that apple can now just put in – like firewire, bluetooth, wireless networking. Apple can move faster and better in implementing new things because it controls the hardware and software. It can put in the hardware, the OS hooks and write the app to accomplish something new (like consumer video editing in 1998). Nobody else can do this.
I’m not so sure that what keeps people from switching is lack of hardware freedom of choice. Before that I would put: (1) fear of lack of incompatibility with the rest of the computing world; and (2) price. As to price, it’s not that macs are overpriced. They are better designed and a lot more thought and effort goes into the user experience, but such thought and effort simply costs money. In any market, there are going to be a larger number of people that want to buy something cheaper that is “good enough” or looks the “same” in superificial ways. That’s just marketing reality.
That’s not to say more people wouldn’t buy macs at the same price (compatibility fears notwithstanding) if there was “choice” in hardware. But as others point out, providing such choice would take away key parts of the advantages apple has that allow it to provide a better product. Fewer glitches is just part of the story. Lose control of the hardware and you become dependent on others to implement things that apple can now just put in – like firewire, bluetooth, wireless networking. Apple can move faster and better in implementing new things because it controls the hardware and software. It can put in the hardware, the OS hooks and write the app to accomplish something new (like consumer video editing in 1998). Nobody else can do this.
“When you use Windows, you notice consistency – consistently hard to use, buggy and bloated programs”
well, I thought OS news was different..but, it seems like I am reading Slashdot articles again…so, bye bye OS news..another bookmark to remove..
Well dependency meaning that if apple brought out OSX for pc, M$ wuld no longer develop office or ie for OSX. Which could prove to be a little crippling.
It says at the top, opinion of the author is does not reflect opinions of osnews.com
“1. What good is Apple’s Hardware Revenue if they continue to lose users? If the market share continues to shrink like it does, there won’t be any revenue soon.”
Are they losing users? The number of users could be increasing at the same time as the market share is decreasing.
My guess is that a lot of Mac users are postponing buying a new Mac for longer than usual. Economic situation, no big improvement in performance, no Quark for OS X. If you already have a decent Mac, there is little incentive to upgrade this year.
If this is so, they will catch up eventually.
I don’t mean to be rude, but all the complaining about our articles is getting annoying.
We publish what is submited to use. Articles that were not written by the OSNews staff reflect the opinions of the author and not necessarily OSNews. This is clearly stated at the top of each article written by and independent contributor.
For thoese who complain we have too many Linux articles, or we are biased againes Microsoft, etc… you are more than welcome to write an article for OSNews about whatever operating system you want. Write the article, submit it to use, and if it follows our guidelines (see: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=168) then we will publish it.
Please don’t just post a comment saying “you guys hate Microsoft” or “you have too many Linux articles” that is a waste of time and it’s really not very helpfull.
Just buy the freakin’ $20 download! Sun is basically giving Solaris for x86 away, all they want is some money to cover the cost of the download bandwidth!
I downloaded the 3 main ISO images a couple of weekends ago. The download was very smooth and fast, without any trouble. Now all I need to do is make the time to set Solaris up on a test PC so I can tinker….
The reason that Marklar exists is simple, it gives Apple an if all else fails fall back position. They are simply providing the due dilagence that their shareholders require.
Why apple can’t go x86:
Carbon. Yes the Java and Cocoa enviroments are platform independent but Carbon (the OS 9 API’s) isn’t, even if they can get it working on x86 without any bugs it will take years to optimise properly. Carbon wasn’t designed that way as it was designed during the OS 9 days when there was no need as Apple, a hardware company, saw no reason for surporting the same OS across multiple processors after all the ynew exactly what processor they would be using so why abstract when you can get better optimisations by not. Guess what most Mac software is based on? Carbon. Look how long it has taken Quark to carbonise XPress, how long do you think it will take them to move over to an x86 compile?
Surporting Legacy Apps. When Apple switched from 68K to PPC they made an emulator that worked seemlessly. This ain’t going to be so easy switching from PPC to x86 the power difference is not big enough.
The Microsoft Monopoly. It exists and MS will do anything, legal or otherwise, to keep it. If Apple goes x86 they won’t be able to get the big manufacturers to sell with their OS because MS will not let them. Remember BeOS. Arguably a better OS than OS X and capable of stamping all over Windows, but it never took off because, among other things, MS wouldn’t let the big maufacturers offer it and keep their right to sell Windows machines at the same time. And as I said before there is no point going x86 without them as whatever security they put in place will be worked around within weeks so they will end up having to rely on software sales and clones whether they like it or not.
Altivec. Seeing as how much of Apples software is heavily optimised for that processor unit losing it when you switch to the x86 could easilly dump most of the performance gains from the processor because of the lack of optimisation. This in fact goes for all thrid party apps as well, most of the mature software will be well optimised for the PPC now. Why should they rewrite everything to simply get there software running as fast as it was before?
and one reason why they won’t:
PowerPC 970. We all know it’s coming, we all know it’s good. It has Altivec, carbon will run without problems, and it can run all old 32 bit PPC code without change. Plus it will not challange MS.
I think you need to step back and re-read the article you just published. When I buy a car I’m getting pretty much the whole package from Mrecedez, I don’t expect to switch out the engine with a GM engine a year from now. The real problem with Apple’s hardware strategy is that they do not remain competitive on the minor add-ons. Like GPU’s, it still costs us $180 for an ATI 8500, whereas Intel world can buy it for half that. It’s stuff like this that frustrates loyal Mac customers. Apple only needs to be better on its add-on market. Everything else is top notch.
Most of the computers Apple sells do not have Altivec in them (the G3’s), so that is not a barrier to entry. The Carbon framework is also portable, the biggest issue is always drivers. So it is conceivable that a lot of the OS X software will work fine with a minor conversion process and re-compile. However, WHY? the 970 promises to be awesome for the task. If you are a true hobbyist, than go get opendarwin and start writing your own Aqua compatible framework…
…and that’s why they won’t allow clones again. They seem bent on maintaining their niche than expanding it. Greater hardware compatibilty won’t weaken MacOS X for the same reasons it doesnt’ weaken the BSDs or Linux. Furthermore, introducing a program similar to Microsoft’s WHQL could be another source for income while still assuring stability. It’s one of the reasons why XP is so very stable.
An open platform could also spur competition for better PPC chips, since a company could have hopes for a market share larger than 3%.
Does anyone know if Apple’s OSs Make them money? Are they a profit, or a loss?
Apple’s profit margins on OS X are very small, around 5%. Obviously it’s the hardware that’s their cash cow.
Back in the early 90’s, Apple licensed its architecture to a few other companies as an experiement (Radius was the one Mac-clone that I can remember, but I’m sure there were others.) It was a great success– for everyone except Apple. Apple pulled the plug after only three years or so.
All the really says about Apple is that their hardware is TOO EXPENSIVE. They’ve been hovering on the brink of bankruptcy now for over TEN YEARS and it’s all because the average user can’t afford their systems. I’m not arguing with anyone– I think OSX is better than Windows, but apparently nobody wants to tack an extra $300-$400 onto their system just for a fancy silver or see-thru case. I don’t, at least (!)
All the really says about Apple is that their hardware is TOO EXPENSIVE. They’ve been hovering on the brink of bankruptcy now for over TEN YEARS and it’s all because the average user can’t afford their systems.
You know, companies aren’t generally on the brink of bankrupcy unless they’re posting losses for several quarters in a row and their assets are depleted. Apple has been posting a profit fairly consistently since 1998. In other words, they’re doing fine, despite rampant PC fanboy ramblings that their systems are too expensive.
I thought you were just silly.
Now I know you are a moron.
“1. What good is Apple’s Hardware Revenue if they continue to lose users? If the market share continues to shrink like it does, there won’t be any revenue soon. ”
Revenue isn’t shrinking and Apple isn’t selling less computers. The whole marketplace is growing faster than Apple is, but it’s hardware sales increase.
Theoretically, in time the marketshare may be too small to make a developer community sustainable–threatening the whole enchilada–yes.
But internally, Apple can see themselves as selling more and more computers–they aren’t selling less computers. And the marketshare issue isn’t even close to affecting them yet–when Adobe threatens to leave then you may have a point.
“2. If other vendors sell OS X compatible hardware, Apple will be able to profit from every of those sales if they’re clever. Which they are as long as Steve Jobs is there.
3. With an enhanced market share (even if it doesn’t grow 500%), they’ll sell more of their software and they’ll be able to sell more stuff like iPods , music downloads (soon!) and maybe an Office suite.”
I already told you they would be half as small if they were software only and grew 500%. What you are suggesting is more on the magnitude of growing 1500%. How?
And as I said–who the hell do you think is licensing MacOS? What is their motivation to do so? Rather than tell me why Apple should do this; tell me why it’s in the best interest of another company to sell Apple computers.
“4. Why would Marklar exist if there were absolutely no chance of it being used? Why would Apple work with AMD (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/30372.html) ? Tell me WHY is there no chance for OS X x86? Driver problems? No! I’m not talking about supporting every ten year old Dell machine out there but a few nice machines, mainly Laptops.”
To improve code development–all of NeXT has been strongly focused on crossplatform code because it’s quality code.
To use as leverage in business dealings.
To have options if their current choice proves unviable.
Would you like more?
“Tell me WHY is there no chance for OS X x86?” Well, it’s not as simple as this is it: are you talking an Apple x86 or clones or build your own PCs that run MacOS? Why won’t it happen? Because it wouldn’t be a Mac. A Mac is not a PC that runs a MacOS. A Mac is a personal computer built by Apple. Hardware and Software will always be tied,and there will never be clones again.
“What makes XP unstable is bad drivers or unsupported hardware.”
No, what makes XP less stable are design botches like the all-in-one-easy-to-corrupt implementation of the Registry and other miscellaneous issues.
“design botches like the all-in-one-easy-to-corrupt implementation of the Registry”
That should be “all-in-one-easy-to-corrupt-file implementation of the Registry.
“What makes XP unstable is bad drivers or unsupported hardware.”
I agree the problem is 3rd party drivers poorly written and not digital signed by Microsoft. Myself, I never had a problem with Xp. I mostly use Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash, Office etc.. .
I really don’t think Apple is interested in supporting or having a white-box computer market.
It doesn’t help with credibility in the professional and home computer market which is what they are going for. Apple will not be able to have a hardware business if they decide to use open hardware. I would rather that Apple sell integrated solutions vs. “I buy the software and put together the hardware.”, Its a hardly a recipe for success.
They are doing fine and staying on course as it is. Not everyone wants to build their own computer just like not everyone wants to build their own car. A majority of people don’t.
I like MacOS X a lot, far more than XP. But apple’s hardware is really overpriced. For the price ($3,800) for the tope of the line Mac I could build a dual athlon mp 2600 with over a terrabyte of harddrive space. (if you don’t belive me, e-mail me and I will send you the parts list). I got all the prices from one store, and i include the cost of shipping, and it’s still cheaper. All the hardware is name brand.
In my opinion, Apple needs to lower the price of there hardware make it faster if they want to attract more customers. (sorry, dual 1.42 ghz does not compete with a dual athlon 2600) Apple has always been a good platform for multimedia, they have excellent software – but with there hardware being so expensive they are losing their edege in the market.
I like final cut pro, but I’d rather buy a cheaper and more powerfull PC.
But, that’s just my opinion. I’m not attacking apple, or trying to start a flame war, I am just stating my opinion.
You’re obviously focused on the high end desktop hardware. Apple is weakest there now because of Motorola’s screw job of apple. Wait a few months for the 970.
Or if you want a laptop, the mac ones aren’t really overpriced. They are very reasonable, esp. considering the superior bundled software.
I am sorry, but not only does a dual 1.42ghz PPC chip outsmoke a single 3ghz p4, a 300hmz G3 EASILY beats any numbers any Athon can churn out. The secret? The 400 terraflop output is due to the fact Apple uses RISC technolgy, It makes them super computers. PC Crap uses CISC, that stands for COMPLEX. And everyone knows complex things are slower.
I would show you some numbers that prove my point, but Apple keeps em secret so as not to scare the competition. The closest thing I can give you is two images: One picture of a turtle. Thats a P.
We win.
BTW, check out the prices on hard drives in Macs. An EIDE 180-giger costs $400 in PowerMac and $500 in XServe. Prices on 180-gig drives on Pricewatch start from $170. Nice markup, isn’t it?
Oh wonderful lies…
Check this out.
http://macspeedzone.com/archive/4.0/WinvsMacSPECint.html
Athlon 650 beats G4/500 by 25% in integer calculations and loses 1% in floating-point.
Should I remind you that now we have Athlon 3000+ and Opteron 242? Tame your zeal, brave Apple warrior
.
You ARE CRAZY!! Apple doesnt mark up hardware. The Apple version of the hardware is better. It may appear that, for example the ATI Radeon 7500, which costs 40 bucks on pricewatch, and $229 at the Apple dealer, is the same card. In fact, through special contracts with Apple, ATI adds extra goodness (OH MY!!) to the card just for Apple users. So only Apple users get to enjoy these things, not the stinkin PC users. Also, just by mere fact its the Apple version, not the PC version makes it better too.
What kind of extra goodness? I am not telling!! Get one yourself!!
this site is the bargain hunters central.
cheap skates spend countless hours scouring the net to post their remarkable shopping skillz here.
k mart blue specials anyone?
anyhew, it’s boring.
btw, the xserve example mr walmart above posted is for a module, not a hard drive.
the cheapo drives mentioned can be used in a powermac.
smart shoppers know this.
o, and the post by the o so clever i -heart -apple is best summed up by the Comic Book Guy–
Worst Flamebait Ever.
You are absolutely right. Those Apple bashers who shop bottom of the barrel Asian PC crap wouldnt know good hardware if it came up and smacked them in the face.
An example would be how Apple uses Maxtor drivers in all there computers now (even the XServ? not sure..) Maxtor is the sum of all excellence when it comes to IDE drives. The 4500 rpm drives are faster than the PC 7200 rpm drives. Another tell tale sign of Maxtor quality? Its available everywhere, Office Depot, Staples, Best Buy, Circut City, etc. Shop there and you know quality!!
I AM SO EXCITED!!! JUST GOT OFF THE PHONE WITH APPLE!! MY NEW 17″ POWERBOOK JUST SHIPPED FROM TAIWAN!!!!! BE HERE IN 3-4 DAYS!!
w00t!
o, and the post by the o so clever i -heart -apple is best summed up by the Comic Book Guy–
Worst Flamebait Ever.
Dear Joe!
First of all, I ain’t Mr. Walmart. In my life, I never entered a Walmart shop.
I got prices from pricewatch because I had to get them from somewhere. Even if my local shop would charge me $30 or $50 more, it isn’t that big deal. On the other hand, more then double markup on readily available components is a big deal for me.
If the reason for $100 difference between XServe and PowerMac drives is that there is a bit of plastic and metal around the drive… well, this confirms the overpricing point.
Mr. Walmart?
4500 RPM drives aren’t buit for perfomace. These are 2.5″ laptop drives, optimized for minimum noise and vibration and low heat/power usage. Good luck sticking a 7200 brick to your laptop.
BTW, is IBM and Western Digital “asian crap”, too? And what manufacturer *isn’t* Asian crap?
tongue in cheeky, thats me.
thread after thread, on this site, when its about apple, the bargain binners come out in like a boxing day sale.
it happens time after time, cindy sez.
gets a bit boring after a bit.
hread after thread, on this site, when its about apple, the bargain binners come out in like a boxing day sale.
Dood.. I am so with ya. I would much rather spend $4000 on name brand stuff than $400 on whatever crap costs less. Thats the PC mindset man, thats why the computers are so ugly and slow. My 266mhz tangerine iBook literally SMOKES the the silicon outta my buddy next doors latest 3.4GHZ Dell POS. He always says: But can you run quake IV? and I say, dood, I am too busy doing REAL WORK to play such nonsense. LOL on him man. Photoshop all the way!
o so clever< i -heart -apple> is best summed up by the Comic Book Guy–
Worst Flamebait Ever.
WQhta do you mean “flamebait”? You keep saying the same thing and i dont understand.
“Worst Flamebait Ever.”
-Comic Book Guy
sorry…
re: xserve drive modules—–
drive modules use hot-plug connectors called single connector attachment (SCA II), add more storage without bringing down the server. The Apple Drive Modules feature a push-handle locking mechanism that holds them firmly in place after insertion. Integration with the keylock prevents them from being removed or dismounted when locked.
switching to jack daniels…
Is he calling you Gay?
Why would he do that?
Just like a PC Guy. They do things like that.
First they are all uppity, then they become homophobic.
Oh geez, get on with your life, hes just a Mac user, quit
being so mean.
flame bait n. [common] A posting intended to trigger a flame war, or one that invites flames in reply. See also troll.
didnt u?
no, not really..
I was just trying to support Apple.
“Apple doesnt mark up hardware. The Apple version of the hardware is better.”
“Also, just by mere fact its the Apple version, not the PC version makes it better too. ”
” 300hmz G3 EASILY beats any numbers any Athon can churn out. ”
” 400 terraflop output is due to the fact Apple uses RISC technolgy, It makes them super computers. PC Crap uses CISC, that stands for COMPLEX.”
my 9 year old brother can do better than that in trolling.
Those are the facts. All you PC users are the same. When given the cold hard facts, you run away scared. The reason? Well its stated in this here article: Poor people who cant afford Apple hardware, love to complain about it, yet they are really just jealous.
Sorry.. Maybe someday you can get a 17″ Powerbook..
THAT was the worst flamebait ever.
dude, you’re not fooling anyone….
reverse role trolling is older than u seem to be.
OS X on Intel won’t happen because too many software developers wouldn’t make the jump. Porting to another platform is enormously expensive in terms of time, money and programming resources. The 680*0 to PPC transition took years and many Mac developers disappeared – back then there was a much larger reason to continue as Apple was a more than twice the size it is now (in dollar volume) and the total Apple market was 15%+ with folklore that it was going to explode to 25% (as MS was bungling Windows and other arguments).
I was in a company that made the transition back then and we wouldn’t do it now. The OS X migration was painful enough. It took about 20% of our programming resources for a year to port our four main applications – that effectively removed those resources from major new improvements. If we had to jump to Intel/OS X we would drop the Mac entirely and focus on our Windows versions. Programming friends at much larger firms more or less say the same thing and Apple is very aware of it.
One of the beauties of the Mac is the fairly tight coupling the OS has with the hardware — it can do things that would be fairly difficult in Windows (like real plug and play:-)
The good news is that some new small players, mostly from the unix world, are starting to grock the Mac. There are signs of some real innovation and the quality of many of these guys is just seriously better than what exists in many of the large programming shops. You don’t get the sense of excitement on the MS side (in fact many of the Windows programmers at our place are jealous of the OS X guys. (very few of the Windows programmers actually use Windows in their real life they use linux, bsd or os x)
The Mac will always be more expensive – so will BMWs (and many Fords have a much better price/performance ratio than any BMW) – but there are people who will appreciate them. Perhaps they will become more widespread in the corporate world when the bad guys get more serious with their mostly Windows based worms, viruses, etc… pehaps not…
In the meantime I’m excitedly waiting for the PPC 970s ….
I would show you some numbers that prove my point, but Apple keeps em secret so as not to scare the competition. The closest thing I can give you is two images: One picture of a turtle. Thats a P.
If you’re going to troll, you could at least be coherent about it.
The benchmarks being pointed to are done with a test suite from the Standard Performance Evaluation Corporation (see http://www.spec.org ). SPEC CPU2000 is one of the most trusted CPU performance benchmarks.
Here’s how PPC970 stacks up against the x86 competition:
AMD Opeteron 1.8GHz
SPECint2000 1170
SPECfp2000 1219
Intel Pentium 4 3.06GHz
SPECint2000 1032
SPECfp2000 1074
IBM PPC970 1.8GHz
SPECint2000 937
SPECfp2000 1051
appleforever:
I am not just focused on high end desktops, for about $2200 (a little over the cost of Apple’s dual 1.25 ghz desktop) you can get the same system I mentioned before, but with only 120 GBs of storage instead of a terrabyte. It will perform a lot better than a dual 1.25ghz G4 system. I will reevaluate when the 970 comes out. I like Apple alot, i’m planning on buying a powerbook this summer, I just think Apple has a few issues they need to work on if they want to get more users.
I-Heart-Apple:
“I am sorry, but not only does a dual 1.42ghz PPC chip outsmoke a single 3ghz p4”
I never said anything about a 3ghz P4, i’ve never used one so I can’t make a fair analysis about how it would perform compared to a dual 1.42 ghz G4. I said that a dual athlon 2600+ is faster than a dual 1.25 G4. I’m not sure if you post is a joke or not, but a 300 mhz G3 does not beat even a slow athlon, much less a top of the line athlon.
As a side note, when I mentioned I could build a dual athlon system for the price of the high end apple I got all the prices from one website (newegg.com) I did not go to price watch and look for the cheapest prices and none of the parts were on sale.
I never said anything about a 3ghz P4, i’ve never used one so I can’t make a fair analysis about how it would perform compared to a dual 1.42 ghz G4. I said that a dual athlon 2600+ is faster than a dual 1.25 G4. I’m not sure if you post is a joke or not, but a 300 mhz G3 does not beat even a slow athlon, much less a top of the line athlon.
“I-Heart-Apple” is obviously some moron who thought he invented a creative way to troll, by taking the stereotypical rhetoric of Apple fans then inflating the numbers.
And regarding my previous post, “Opeteron” was a typo. It should, of course, be Opteron, but knowing the typical ad hominem mentality around here, that single typo alone is enough to discredit anything I have to say.
Bascule, do you know if these Opteron numbers are for 32-bit mode or for 64-bit mode?
Bascule,
I have seen the numbers. Since the 970 is vaporware lets go with the SPECS from a more realistic processor:
AMD 1.8GHz
SPECint2000 1170
SPECfp2000 1219
Intel Pentium 4 3.06GHz
SPECint2000 1032
SPECfp2000 1074
Motorola 68040 33mHz
SPECint2000 2937
SPECfp2000 3051
Clearly the 68040 has the speed advantage over simply everything in the x86 world.
Dude u are BLOODY FILTHY FUCKING STINKING LIAR.
mac processor is at least HALF the speed of 3.06GHz P4 and EVERY NEWS OUTLET ON EARTH will agree with that.
u benchmark scores are total LIES i could not find anything on google that is anything NEAR that and i think u should post url right now or else everyone will know what a dirty stinking liar you are.
ppl like you are the reason is apple still around today because they are STPUID LIARS who buy overexpensive CRAP COMPUTERS then lie to everyone about how great they are
my friend herad all the APPLE FANBOY LIES and bought herself an iMac and now she is REALLY REALLY MAD because her mac is crappy and she can’t use things like winmx or kazaa
why because no one cares about supporting apple because it is FAGGOT GAY PLATFORM for LIARS
rot in hell you filthy stinking liar
heart-apple is exactly the opposite of what u say.
r u that dense?
he is a reverse role troll ie flamebaiter.
but he sure got u, though, huh?
wha?
lol Rowel you are dumb!
I have to say that I-Heart-Apple may be full of baloney, but he/she has a wonderful sense of comedic timing… Been laughing my butt off reading this stuff.
As for the story, who knows what will happen with Apple, but I would like to see faster hardware before I plunk down the cash.
Heck, I’ve been waffling over getting a Mac for 2 years but the speed factor is what is keeping me on the sidelines.
Probably that way for a lot of other people too.
> When I see a new machine, I like going to a store and touch
> it, feel the keyboard’s grip, open the lid and smell the scent
> of a fresh computer. I find slim notebook computers to be
> really sexy and owning one is a need in my life.
Replace the words “machine” and “computer” with “woman” and he sounds like a pervert.
What’s wrong with “asian hardware”?
I have no time to search this page if it is already told…
A few days ago I read a MacFan about clones, first the magazine was very positive about the choice that came with it, but, why did Apple stop: according to Apple the clones took market share from Apple, the MacOS was not used on more computers, only on less computers made by Apple.
There has been a 68000 and a PowerPC clone notebook, btw.
“I agree the problem is 3rd party drivers poorly written and not digital signed by Microsoft. Myself, I never had a problem with Xp. I mostly use Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash, Office etc. . . ”
Um, if you have a fairly static setup where you just install your apps and then use them, Windows XP will probably be a decently sane system for you. If you find that you tend to experiment with your system a bit more, than you might have problems with cruft accumulating in the Registry. Windows XP does do things like back up the Registry and such, so corruption isn’t nearly as much of an issue as it is with Windows 95/98/ME. Windows XP is actually a technically decent piece of work, but the stability problems it does have are not all simply due to bad drivers.
Back to OS X . . .
If a constricted set of hardware were the key to OS X’s stability, why is it so much more stable than previous versions of MacOS, which supported about the same amount of hardware?
Nico, IBM iSeries laptops aren’t whay you think they are :-
http://www-916.ibm.com/press/prnews.nsf/jan/54AE0C7146AD64A18525680…
They’re not PPC based, just old x86 jobs. There were 2 models of RS/6000 PPC based laptops many moons ago, but they’re no longer available.
Jason…
http://www.developer.ibm.com/tech/faq/individual/0,,2:15150,00.html
Frequently Asked Questions
Will AIX continue to develop UNIX PowerPC laptop systems?
A: Currently the RS/6000 Division doesn’t have any plans to release any new laptop computers that run AIX. However, all current levels of AIX will support laptop models that were previously announced by IBM. For more details you can call 1-800-IBM-CALL.
Like a Porche, there is more to it than outter beauty and price. There is quality, an inner beauty, throughout the entire machine. These are things that seem to get overlooked. Perhaps it’s because the XPers on here never really test drove a Mac. I’d gladly pay double to have an Apple inside and out.
An excellent example of this (geeks will love this) is writing scripts for each platform. These examples were taken from http://www.xvsxp.com/scriptability/. You really should read this webpage to also see how Apple automatically colors the text as it is being written so the programmer instantly knows if their Mac recognizes the syntax. Regardless, even a complete non-programmer can easily see the difference between the languages in the examples below.
………. start quote ……….
Example 1: a subroutine to download an image to your hard drive
VB: (Using Microsoft Internet Transfer Control displayed using Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0’s syntax coloring)
Private Sub cmdWriteFile_Click()
Dim b() As Byte
Inet1.Protocol = icHTTP
Inet1.URL = “http://www.xvsxp.com/images/xvsxp.gif“
b() = Inet1.OpenURL(Inet1.URL, icByteArray)
Open “C:xvsxp.gif” For Binary Access
Write As #1
Put #1, , b()
Close #1
MsgBox “Done”
End Sub
AppleScript: (Using URL Access Scripting)
on downloadImage ()
set web_URL to “http://www.xvsxp.com/images/xvsxp.gif“
set file_path to “Macintosh HD:xvsxp.gif”
tell application “URL Access Scripting” to download the web_URL to file file_path
display dialog “Done”
end downloadImage
Example 2: scripting speech
XP: This excerpt from CMP’s TechWeb outlines how to script speech on XP. (It’s ok to let you’re eyes glaze over in this example. Just notice how MUCH it takes to do it).
var vt = WScript.CreateObject(“Speech.VoiceText”);
vt.Register(“”, WScript.ScriptName);
var phrase = “Is there something I should say?”;
if ( WScript.Arguments.length )
phrase = WScript.Arguments(0);
vt.Speak(phrase, 1);
while ( vt.IsSpeaking )
WScript.Sleep(100);
WScript.Quit();
OS X: Now here’s how to do the same thing on X:
say “Is there something I should say?”
Example 3: Display free disk space
XP: The following script was taken directly from Microsoft’s own TechNet web site :
Set objWmiService = GetObject(“winmgmts:”)
Set objLogicalDisk = objWmiService.Get(“Win32_LogicalDisk.DeviceID=’C:'”)
WScript.Echo objLogicalDisk.FreeSpace
OS X:
tell application “Finder” to display dialog (free space of startup disk )as string
Example 4: Address book
10.2 comes with an updated Address book application. One night I was wondering if it was scriptable. I could have looked up its dictionary, but instead I tried to write a sample script for Address book, without having any knowledge about what commands it supported. I wrote the following script:
tell application “Address Book ”
set theFirstNameList to the first name of every person whose last name contains “e”
display dialog (theFirstNameList as string )
end tell
Amazingly, it worked. This is perfect testament to the elegance, simplicity and power of AppleScript.
……….. end quote ……….
When you compare computers, don’t just point out $$ and Ghz. Quality, ease of use, and reliability are often much more valuable.
To understand why a clone policy, be it x86 or PPC, would be difficult for Apple you should look at a key difference between Apple’s failed clone operation and Microsoft’s successful one.
Microsoft has an almost guaranteed aftermarket revenue stream from each PC clone that is sold. This includes both add-on applications like Visio or Project, as well as upgrade fees for the products already on your machine. After buying a PC with Windows and Office, most users pay Microsoft hundreds of dollars in upgrade fees, for Office alone, during the life of that PC. When the computer is replaced, they started the process over again.
Apple’s clone program failed because they had no real after market revenue coming in. When you bought a computer from Radius, or Power Computing, Apple got paid for the OS and some of the proprietary hardware on the mother board. After the sale Apple only had OS upgrades as a continued revenue source. If fact, Microsoft may have been making more money off of Apple Clones than Apple. They had the continued upgrade cycle of MS Office. This almost killed Apple because their margins were in the hardware, not the OS.
Apple in the last few years has been working to increase their revenues from software and services. Today a home user could spend easily spend $400 on products and services from Apple after they purchase a computer. As this non-hardware based revenue continues to grow, Apple will gain more flexibility of how they handle hardware.